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BA Cabin Crew Redundancies  
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3527 posts, RR: 3
Posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7251 times:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20590965

400 cabin crew to be made redundant, volunteers sought.

Two things of note:

Firstly they are seeking volunteers from senior short haul, and long haul cabin crew, but not crew who fly both, in essence this means they are seeking to pay off crew on the older more expensive contracts rather than recent mixed fleet entrants. This will help in the drive to cut staff costs.

Secondly, these redundancies will be a direct result of the contraction in former BD routes, already the wet leases of BD planes to LH have ended, then next March some domestic routes will be ceded to VS. It appears that VS will wet lease planes from a European source, with non UK crew, wouldn't it have been far better for UK employment if the existing crews had just passed to VS along with the slots ?

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineaamd11 From UK - Wales, joined Nov 2001, 1057 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6906 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Thread starter):
wouldn't it have been far better for UK employment if the existing crews had just passed to VS along with the slots ?

Depends.

Would VS have had enough funds to keep every single staff member and every single aircraft in service for the foreseeable future? Or would they have had to focus on quickly stemming the cash burn by trimming staff, routes, and aircraft?

Who's to say that in the medium term VS would have had the time and the funds to turn around an operation the size of BD? Particularly as the BD operation was in many ways larger than VS itself? Perhaps the VS option would have been worse for UK employment in the medium term... without the time and the funds to sustain the losses, the cuts could have come sooner and on a bigger scale than has been the case under IAG.


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3527 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6810 times:

Quoting aamd11 (Reply 1):
Depends.

Would VS have had enough funds to keep every single staff member and every single aircraft in service for the foreseeable future? Or would they have had to focus on quickly stemming the cash burn by trimming staff, routes, and aircraft?

Who's to say that in the medium term VS would have had the time and the funds to turn around an operation the size of BD? Particularly as the BD operation was in many ways larger than VS itself? Perhaps the VS option would have been worse for UK employment in the medium term... without the time and the funds to sustain the losses, the cuts could have come sooner and on a bigger scale than has been the case under IAG.

You've misunderstood me, I was only thinking of the domestic routes presently operated by BA which switch to VS at the start of Summer 2013, its something in the region of 13 daily flights, operated one day by BA planes crewed by BA staff, the next day operated on behalf of VS by the Lithuanians.


User currently offlineshamrock321 From Ireland, joined May 2008, 1592 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6082 times:

That not quite what's happening Bongodog.

BA will continue to fly domestically with the same frequency they always have in some cases with increased frequencies.

BA inherited a lot of slots from BD which used them on many different routes some which BA have not continued, the deal is that BA have to let of go of a certain amount of slots so that there can be competition on domestic routes.


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4798 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6059 times:

Pretty much the same as what QF has been doing... (actually QF advised BA on setting up a low cost crew operation within its existing operation ie mixed fleet like QCCA).
QF has been offering redundancies for years to its most expensive old contract crew in an effort to reduce costs (new crew are about half the cost of old crew).



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5842 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Thread starter):
400 cabin crew to be made redundant, volunteers sought.

I wondered how long it would be before we saw this. Hopefully it can be done all by volunteers.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5167 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5772 times:

I would expect the union to fight this, not because BA isn't overstaffed (I can't comment on that) but because it would set a dangerous precedent: Worldwide crews can be made redundant in favor of Mixed Fleet. After all, there is no guarantee that the next round would be voluntary. I'm not sure what leg they have to stand on, but they would need to be seen to do something.


Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 809 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5682 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 6):
I would expect the union to fight this,

They are not fighting this. They are supporting it.


User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5333 times:

I feel very sorry for BA being saddled with some very expensive under utilized staff.

We've seen on here in some threads that BA cabin crew themselves admit to only doing 6 European sectors per week and end up in fancy hotels and generous time off

Easyjet crew probably do around 20 European sectors per week and no fancy hotels involved.

How can you compete with that? There has to be contract changes at BA.


User currently offlineShuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5252 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):

I think what BA is doing is wrong, some, if not most of the cabin crew are excellent,and professional. A friend of mine recently travelled 1 st to LAX.He said he was embarrassed by the way the crew (mixed fleet) were overawed by a certain celebrity travelling in 1st, sneaking up to take photos and talking to them.Dont get me wrong it's a job for them, but half of them look about 19 or 20 years of age, stay until they are sick of the sight of Boston, then bugger off. With BA under Walsh, all he has done is outsource everything, regions, LGW, cabin crew ,LHR ground will be next.All they want to do is make as much money as possible,keep the shareholders happy, pay themselves large bonuses and shaft the staff..


User currently offlinebastew From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5248 times:

A few years ago we had a very surpervisor-centric set up on board our long haul flights. On each 747 for instance with a crew complement of 15, we had one Cabin Service Director (CSD), FOUR Pursers and ten cabin crew. Today on a 747 we have one CSD and two Pursers. Despite the complement of Pursers being halved on board we still have the same amount of Pursers employed. Separately, the total sum work available to those employed as Pursers (or CSD's or main crew) on the so called old contract 'Legacy Fleet' has reduced as work (specific routes) begin to transfer to the new 'Mixed Fleet' - crew on a drastically cheaper salary and with different rank structure (there is no 'Purser' role on Mixed Fleet).

BA had counted on the numbers balancing themselves out between the fleets by offering periods of unpaid leave, part-time contracts and natural attrition. And with the particularly acute situation with an over-supply of Pursers for some time Pursers have been able to volunteer to 'work down' as main Cabin Crew for a period of time while retaining their Purser salary and position to return to.

On Eurofleet (shorthaul) the situation is slightly different. When the bulk of the shorthaul fleet was made up 767's and 757's there were two supervisory positions onboard, like longhaul. Each 757 or 767 required a CSD to be the in-charge crew member. The 757's are now (sadly) long gone along with the agreement to have a CSD as the in-charge crew member. The 767's are also becoming fewer and fewer on shorthaul. When the A320 launched BA stated this aircraft would be a 'single supervisory' aircraft. In other words just one senior crew member on board - either a CSD or a Purser. Recruitment for CSD has not happened on short-haul for about ten years now and those that have retained their CSD position and not transferred to longhaul have seen their work dwindle.

Last years budget for the Inflight Services department did not provide to offer voluntary redundancy. The 2013 budget has just been announced with the provision to offer limited amounts of voluntary redundancy.

The reality is for each full time 'Legacy Fleet' Purser that leaves the company BA will be able to recruit 2.5 new main crew on 'Mixed Fleet'. A Purser is also paid nearly twice what a 'Cabin Service Manager' (the CSD MF equivalent) is paid on Mixed Fleet.

The offer of voluntary redundancy is being viewed as a pretty positive thing in the crew community. There are quite a lot of crew that have wanted to leave the business for some time but have been hanging on until such an offer came up.


User currently offlinebamf777 From UK - England, joined Sep 2012, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5176 times:

I agree with you bastew. From what I've heard crew are quite happy to hear this news, as you say there are people who have been waiting for voluntary redundancies to come up for a few years.
There's not many jobs out there where you can have a good income for doing relatively easy work. When you've been doing that job for so many years it's hard to get out of the comfort zone even if your not enjoying it anymore. In this climate there are no(or very few) jobs where you can earn good money with a good work/life balance, but with the right amount of redundancy pay offered and a quick handshake I'm sure there will be no problem finding 400 crew to take redundancy. I think people forget how big BA is and 400 is quite a small number when there's 9,000+ cabin crew.

Oh and let's not turn this into a Mixed Fleet bashing post. Having flown on Mixed Fleet flights I must say the majority seem very nice and professional even if there have been a few slip ups when it was new. I started flying when I was 18 and can tell you now that some of the behaviour I saw then from 25+ year olds I wouldn't expect from a 12 year old....



The postings on this site are my own and don’t necessarily represent British Airways’ positions, strategies or opinions
User currently offlineedina From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 740 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 5085 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):

Hmmm....6 sectors a week??

I'm full time, have just done a 6 day block with an IST there & back, a 3 day 8 sector euro tour, a 2 day 4 sector euro tour, and a LUX/CDG double duty......
18 sectors, 58hrs45 duty time...

Your sweeping statement may have been valid 20 years ago.....but not today.

As to the "fancy" hotels......BA have to operate their first flights of the day somehow, and found previously that basing crew away from LHR cost more than nightstopping crew. BA's purchasing team drive a hard bargain when it comes to hotel contracts & don't pay anywhere near the same rate as the general public, and they will go for whichever hotel can provide x number of rooms on a daily basis at the lowest rate.

Must dash as I've only got 2 days off, and back on tomorrow for 5 days and another 14 sectors.......with 2 nights away - one in a really fancy Novotel, and another in an outrageously decadent Marriott Courtyard.



Worked on - Caravelle Mercure A300 A320 F27 SD3-60 BAe146 747-100/200/400 DC10-30 767 777 737-400 757 A319 A321
User currently offlineB727FA From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 738 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4918 times:

Oh to have a 3day with only 8 legs...


My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3151 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4874 times:

Quoting edina (Reply 12):
and another in an outrageously decadent Marriott Courtyard.

Don't you just hate the bedcoverings in those hotels? 



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlinetheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 4831 times:

Quoting Shuttle9juliet (Reply 9):
All they want to do is make as much money as possible,keep the shareholders happy

Without wishing to get in to any debate about BA's former CEO is that not the aim of a business, make as much money as possible and also to keep shareholders happy, as they do own the business and can provide funding for investment..


User currently offlinepegasus1 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 4767 times:

Quoting bastew (Reply 10):

bastew, excellent post!   


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5167 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 4609 times:

Quoting bastew (Reply 10):

Thanks for taking the time to explain this. Now I think about it, I was aware of the overstaffing of supervisor ranks on both fleets. In light of that it makes sense to thin them a bit. Are these redundancy packages being offered to all crew or just supervisors? The article would suggest the latter, which makes sense.

As an aside, do Eurofleet CSDs work the 32S fleet as well? Or are they just on the 767?



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinebastew From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 4590 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 18):
Thanks for taking the time to explain this. Now I think about it, I was aware of the overstaffing of supervisor ranks on both fleets. In light of that it makes sense to thin them a bit. Are these redundancy packages being offered to all crew or just supervisors? The article would suggest the latter, which makes sense.

As an aside, do Eurofleet CSDs work the 32S fleet as well? Or are they just on the 767?

Ryanair redundancy if only being offered to Pursers (both long and shorthaul) and CSD's (shorthaul only).

Eurofleet CSD's also work in charge on the airbus shorthaul fleet....but the way BA looks at it is that on shorthaul a CSD and a Purser are essentially doing an identical job yet they obviously pay the CSD's considerably more.


User currently offlineShuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4025 times:

Quoting theginge (Reply 15):

Very well true and correct..But at the bottom line " happy employees make for a more successful workforce" Employing agency or outsourcing jobs, these people do not give a monkeys about the airline they handle or work for. An old saying from a certain CEO " look after your staff, and they will look after your airline"


User currently offlinebojangles From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week ago) and read 3766 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
I feel very sorry for BA being saddled with some very expensive under utilized staff.

You're a real people person! How dare BA employees earn decent money on decent terms. Can't have that.
The 19thC is on the telegraph. They're wondering when you're coming back (!)


User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week ago) and read 3746 times:

A friend who flies for BA has told me that the CAA rules also do not help. Time required before operating being prepositioned inton LON is really expensive. It was shocking to see what was required. A two day trip can turn into 8 paid days.


737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlinebojangles From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3714 times:

Quoting FI642 (Reply 21):
A friend who flies for BA has told me that the CAA rules also do not help. Time required before operating being prepositioned inton LON is really expensive. It was shocking to see what was required. A two day trip can turn into 8 paid days.

Completely untrue. What did you actually see that was 'required'? Have you got a link?


User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3708 times:

Saw it in writing from them - they are not UK based. Even they don't understand it.


737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlineShuttle9juliet From UK - Scotland, joined Jul 2010, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3541 times:

Quoting bojangles (Reply 20):

Well said bojangles !!!


User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3394 times:

From one of my friends that fly for BA, LON based: "Yes but it is pursers and CSD for world wide" Yes, I called them!


737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlineedina From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 740 posts, RR: 9
Reply 26, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3293 times:

Quoting FI642 (Reply 25):

And they are wrong again.......

The voluntary redundancy offer is for Pursers on Worldwide/long haul, and both Pursers and CSDs on Eurofleet/shorthaul.



Worked on - Caravelle Mercure A300 A320 F27 SD3-60 BAe146 747-100/200/400 DC10-30 767 777 737-400 757 A319 A321
User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 27, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3026 times:

Hmm, odd a crew member wouldn't know. I'll tell him he was wrong.   He'll have choice words for me! LOL!


737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlineedina From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 740 posts, RR: 9
Reply 28, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2979 times:

Quoting FI642 (Reply 27):

As a Eurofleet Purser I'm in one of the target groups that BA want a headcount reduction from & have the email "inviting me to apply" right in front of me
 



Worked on - Caravelle Mercure A300 A320 F27 SD3-60 BAe146 747-100/200/400 DC10-30 767 777 737-400 757 A319 A321
User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 29, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2939 times:

Quoting edina (Reply 28):

As a Eurofleet Purser I'm in one of the target groups that BA want a headcount reduction from & have the email "inviting me to apply" right in front of me

How did this happen? Didn't BA see this coming??



737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
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