Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Cathay Pacific Crews Threaten Holiday Strike  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25200 posts, RR: 48
Posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7398 times:

Union representing 6,000 Cathay Pacific flight attendant is threatening industrial action just weeks before the holiday season.

According to the union, the companies 2013 pay offer of 2% increases to its members was "totally unacceptable" inlight of high living cost and inflation.

Union will decide on its next course of action at its meeting next week.

Story:
Cathay Pacific crews threaten holiday strike
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori...ific_business/view/1241034/1/.html

=


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9041 posts, RR: 75
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7342 times:

To balance this out, the company is giving them and ground staff an months pay in dec (13/12=8.6%) plus 2% to their monthly salary next year. Pilots received no pay increase, just the bonus.


We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7335 times:

has cathay ever gone on strike before?

User currently offlineJohnClipper From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2005, 844 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7288 times:

Yeah, let's not forget about the 13th month pay.

User currently offlineqf340500 From Singapore, joined Oct 2011, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6899 times:

Important to balance this out, correct. I think its very important to note that the staff should be satisfied with the package(and i think most of them are actually, if not STIRRED by never happy unions...) many other airlines are laying off staff and in this state of the world economy one should be happy to get a package of any sorts... best forget unions, as i said many times, they might have their reason for being, but most of the time they do more harm then good.

CX crew should do what they can do best - provide a great service to the airline's customers and dont jeopardize this image by following some union's calls...


User currently offlineAF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6724 times:

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 4):
CX crew should do what they can do best - provide a great service to the airline's customers and dont jeopardize this image by following some union's calls...

Easy to say. People who don't live in HK probably don't realize the inflation which is occuring here, mostly due to the jump of the real estate market price (+90% since 2009).
Pressure on HK people is just overwelming currently, because of speculation and world crisis which drive more cash transfer and investments in the "safe" HK.

So, yes, FA's should keep doing their jobs and try not to ruin the holiday plans of thousands of people. But one should also keep in mind the roots of this situation


User currently offlinewowpeter From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2006, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6372 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 1):
To balance this out, the company is giving them and ground staff an months pay in dec (13/12=8.6%) plus 2% to their monthly salary next year. Pilots received no pay increase, just the bonus.

But should the 13th month really be consider pay raise though? It is sort of expected unless the company is really losing tons of money... And the 13th month is written in the flight attendant and pilot contract as subject to company performance... and it is usually always pay, so that 8.6% shouldn't really be factor as something new, it is just the norm / as something expected...

As for the 2% salary, it is better than nothing for sure, but I do see the flight attendant points that some of the flight attendant who operating predominately long haul have been seeing their out-port allowance reduce significantly due to reduce time at out-port. This have also been reported in some local newspaper... For those flight attendant, they are actually receiving a pay cut even after the 2% increase, they claim even after the 2% base salary increase, after their reduce allowance, they are at least 5% to 10% worse off than last year... so I guess I can sort of see their point of why they are complaining...

Just my two cents...


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9041 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day ago) and read 6302 times:

Quoting wowpeter (Reply 6):
This have also been reported in some local newspaper...

I have replied in more detail via PM, I do not think the entire picture is being presented in the paper. As far as I am aware 13th month is not part of our contracts, CX have a discretionary bonus, it is to my understanding expected at KA. The two companies have different conditions.

Allowances are there to compensate employees for meals down route, and are calculated and provided (with some minor exceptions) in the local currency in cash. The calculation is based upon the cost of meals in the crew hotel for the time the company has put them up in the hotel (e.g. for 24 hrs, they would have a breakfast, lunch, and dinner allowance, sometimes a double up, e.g. 2xbreakfast, lunch, and dinner if the 24 hours extends into 2 breakfast periods). I have difficulty with the concept that myself or other crew should be compensated for time we are not in hotels (except for delays), nor do I think they should be compensated for currency rate fluctuations to bring unused allowances back to HKG.

The main reason for reduction in time down route is the increase in frequencies on routes, for example Australia used to be anything up to a week down route after a 8-9 hour flight (back in the 747 classic days), today it is usually 24-48 hours.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25200 posts, RR: 48
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 23 hours ago) and read 6248 times:

A 13th month - in the contract or as a "bonus" hardly should be considered a raise.

A raise would be something that adjust the base pay for employees.

Even the HK government says inflation through October was 3.8%, so the proposed 2% does not even keep up with inflation. Looking at housing cost, the government says that is up 5.9% this year.

At the end of the day, while yes times are though for CX, it seems a little disingenuous for them to make their 2% offer out as equitable.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9041 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 22 hours ago) and read 6195 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
At the end of the day, while yes times are though for CX, it seems a little disingenuous for them to make their 2% offer out as equitable.

The transport sector in HKG saw a average decrease in wages by 1-2% this year. If people feel they are under valued, they would be free to try to obtain alternative employment, when I suggest this to other pilots I fly with, they have a change in heart. As far as I am aware, CX has the highest wages for any of the airlines based out of HKG, and that may include mainland China as well, the airline has to remain competitive, otherwise no one has a job. That was the failure for a lot of airlines in the US.

Housing is high at the moment, however historically it also see very large swings. A new stamp duty recently introduced that only applies to non-permanent residents should take some of the speculation out of the market.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5505 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 21 hours ago) and read 6136 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 7):
I have replied in more detail via PM, I do not think the entire picture is being presented in the paper.

Just like a.net, huh?

Hope it all works out for them. No one needs a job action if they are hurting financially, regardless of Christmas or anything else.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineAF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5772 times:

The strike has now been voted and approved by FA's:

Quote:
Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd. (293) cabin crew authorized union leaders to initiate industrial action, stepping up a pay dispute ahead of the year-end travel rush.
Flight attendants could work-to-rule or refuse to do some tasks such as serving food to passengers in the run-up to Christmas, Dora Lai, chairwoman of the cabin-crew union, told reporters in Hong Kong today, after members voted in favor of action. Workers may go on strike over the New Year or the February Lunar New Year holiday if Cathay fails to respond to requests for more pay talks, she said.
“If they run Cathay Pacific as a low-cost airline, then we will have to conduct a low-cost airline service,” Lai said after a meeting of more than 1,600 union members or their representatives. “We have no choice.” The union represents more than 5,800 of Cathay’s 9,000 flight attendants.

More on that story here: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...-talks-in-apple-advertisement.html


User currently offlineSenliture From Australia, joined May 2000, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5748 times:

I still have trouble understanding why people whinge about their pay rise does not catch up with inflation. In fact since when salary can catch up with inflation? It does not happen in economy uptrend, and certainly won't happen in downturn. If you did not perform well, and if your colleagues have let you down, that's not the overall public to suffer.

And, you join the job and know the flying pattern can be off your usual 9 to 5 scale. Yet you choose to join the long recruitment queue at Cathay city every time they have a recruitment. So why whinge about it?

There are airlines recruiting outside, but why not joining them? Because they already pay below what Cathay is paying today. So, why the fuss?


User currently offlinemusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5653 times:

Quoting AF185 (Reply 5):
Easy to say. People who don't live in HK probably don't realize the inflation which is occuring here, mostly due to the jump of the real estate market price (+90% since 2009).
Pressure on HK people is just overwelming currently, because of speculation and world crisis which drive more cash transfer and investments in the "safe" HK.

So, yes, FA's should keep doing their jobs and try not to ruin the holiday plans of thousands of people. But one should also keep in mind the roots of this situation

As a HK-er, I keep in close contacts with my friends and relatives there and I agree with the fact that properties are mental at the moment.

However, Zeke did have a good point there, the pilots are very well paid for that region (i dont know about cabin crews) but the company needs to be competitive. I hope they can sort something out among themselves, but CX should treat their poor FAs decently as well. Lets hope they strike the right balance.



Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6598 posts, RR: 55
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5363 times:

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 4):
many other airlines are laying off staff and in this state of the world economy one should be happy to get a package of any sorts... best forget unions, as i said many times, they might have their reason for being, but most of the time they do more harm then good.

You can't really compare airlines with a sweeping statement when some airlines are doing well and others are on the verge of bankrupcy. You can only really compare like with like. Even when times are good there are airlines going bankrupt somewhere in the world. Your arguement would be loved by airline managers even if they are making record profits...somewhere out there there will be an airline laying off staff.

Quoting wowpeter (Reply 6):
But should the 13th month really be consider pay raise though? It is sort of expected unless the company is really losing tons of money... And the 13th month is written in the flight attendant and pilot contract as subject to company performance... and it is usually always pay, so that 8.6% shouldn't really be factor as something new, it is just the norm / as something expected...

Agreed. Over the years 13th month pay is becomming less consistant and although it is not written in black and white it is expected, just like the company expects staff not just to work to the black and white but go well above and beyond yet the company often does not go above and beyond. When staff vote to work to the letters of their contracts it's considered as industrial action yet when the company refers to contractual obligations only, it is deemed as being acceptable? Need I say more?

Quoting wowpeter (Reply 6):
For those flight attendant, they are actually receiving a pay cut even after the 2% increase, they claim even after the 2% base salary increase, after their reduce allowance, they are at least 5% to 10% worse off than last year.

Exactly. This is part of the story which is being left out of the headlines. It makes it out to sound like all the staff are simply unhappy because they are getting more money but not enough. There's so much more to the story than what the media report.

Quoting zeke (Reply 7):
Allowances are there to compensate employees for meals down route, and are calculated and provided (with some minor exceptions) in the local currency in cash. The calculation is based upon the cost of meals in the crew hotel for the time the company has put them up in the hotel (e.g. for 24 hrs, they would have a breakfast, lunch, and dinner allowance, sometimes a double up, e.g. 2xbreakfast, lunch, and dinner if the 24 hours extends into 2 breakfast periods).

You know as well as I do and as well as management do that for the average CX flight attendant, outport allowances are not for them to just spend willy-nily for meals but form a large portion of their salary. It is a reason that the airline gets away with paying new joining salaries of only around US$2 per hour more than the hourly legal minimum wage that say a cleaner or security guard gets in Hong Kong. Flight attendants treat allowances as a large portion of their income and stay in their rooms eating instant noodles they have brought with them from home in order to save their allowances to make up their income shortfall. By cutting allowances, the company saves potentially more than the 2% pay rise they are offering and the crew affected would get an overall pay cut.

Quoting zeke (Reply 9):
The transport sector in HKG saw a average decrease in wages by 1-2% this year. If people feel they are under valued, they would be free to try to obtain alternative employment,

What transport sector in Hong Kong are you comparing us to? Bus drivers? Taxi drivers? Are they even relevant?

Quoting Senliture (Reply 12):
I still have trouble understanding why people whinge about their pay rise does not catch up with inflation. In fact since when salary can catch up with inflation? It does not happen in economy uptrend, and certainly won't happen in downturn.

So let me get this straight. Salaries against inflation are decreasing so everyone effectively has a pay cut and a decreased living standard because of their inability to keep up with inflation and you have difficulty understanding why people are unhappy? So.....people should be happy that cost of living is increasing faster than their ability to keep up with?

I see that you are still a student so perhaps you have not felt any of this first hand yet, but I suppose that instead of working and getting a bigger flat as your career progresses, perhaps buying a car, perhaps getting married and having children that you think it is normal for salaries to continually decrease so I guess if you can't afford those things when you are a junior staff of a large company then you should expect never to be able to afford to get those things because to want more would simply be whinging and you can't understand why people would do that right?


User currently offlineqf340500 From Singapore, joined Oct 2011, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5314 times:

CX Flyboy, i normally would agree with most things you say, but not this time, forgive me  

I know how inflation and salary developments work and how they influence each other, and i understand also the frustration. But what makes me angry is that unions stir things up and at the end of the day what will happens usually (a little exeggerated, i know):
-the company is not doing well, despite being managed properly, but due to external influences (fuel, economy etc),
-higher salaries are asked for by the unions due to higher inflation and sometimes "just because - me too",
-the employer will only pay part of what is demanded,
-Unions call for strikes (always for completely un-selfish reasons????),
-employees getting stirred, feel like having a voice now (which is good) and vote for industrial action (strikes),
-planes stay on the grounds, are delayed, services are disrupted, customers are not getting from A to B, the company has to find (costly) alternatives for the customers if it cares for them, customers are getting angry more,
-customers move to competitors, travel less, the company gets a image of low reliability or less excellent service,
-company does worse economically and ...

Is that what we should aim for?

I know this is just one side of the story. But i as a paying customer would have no understanding at all if i would want to go home for X-mas or New Year to visit my family once a year at the other end of the world and have to be delayed or can't travel at all because some person at the unions headoffice thinks its time to stir up things (and maybe goes home to her family afterwards by flying with a budget airline which pays much worse salary package to the employees, according to her). Is that ideal???

I hope they come to some sence and they find a solution. And i am not blaming the CX Staff itself here at all, really.


User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6598 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5281 times:

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 15):
Is that what we should aim for?

Now, I;ve not actually said if I support the crew or not here. In fact I do not know the issue well enough to say whether in this particular case they are in the right or wrong. Everything I posted previously was just general retorts to quotes and inflation vs salary etc in general.

Unfortunately, only two things are only really ever going to result in an improvement in terms and conditions. Either the company has difficulty in hiring new employees (or is losing employees) and has to improve conditions in order to hire more staff, or existing staff are somewhat forceful in their demand for better conditions. In this case, it appears to be the latter. So now that the union has decided to be forceful, what bargaining chip do they have in order to get what they want? Well in this case it is the passenger. It is unfortunate for the passenger but at the end of the day this is the only bargaining chip. A threat to NOT disrupt operations is the same as just asking for what they want with the word 'please' a big smile on their faces. It isn't going to get them anywhere.

"Give us what we want or we'll smother you with comfy pillows."
"Get.....the comfy chair!!"
"No!! Not the comfy chair!!"


User currently offlinequiet1 From Thailand, joined Apr 2010, 353 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5142 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 14):
You know as well as I do and as well as management do that for the average CX flight attendant, outport allowances are not for them to just spend willy-nily for meals but form a large portion of their salary. It is a reason that the airline gets away with paying new joining salaries of only around US$2 per hour more than the hourly legal minimum wage that say a cleaner or security guard gets in Hong Kong. Flight attendants treat allowances as a large portion of their income and stay in their rooms eating instant noodles they have brought with them from home in order to save their allowances to make up their income shortfall. By cutting allowances, the company saves potentially more than the 2% pay rise they are offering and the crew affected would get an overall pay cut.

"In the good old days" of the US airline industry*, flight crews were given larger-than-needed-to-cover-layover-incidental "per diem" expenses because it was beneficial for both the company and the crew member to do so. Expense money was not subject to income tax, giving a bigger take-home for the crew member than if the same $ increase were made to (taxable) flight pay. Additionally, as a benefit to both the company and the crew member, per diem pay was not subject to Social Security (FICA) deductions, which cost the company and employee equally. So, when compensation negotiations were in progress, both sides tended to favor increased per diem as a part of increased compensation.

Is there any similar angle for CX crew with HK/Chinese taxation?

* I put the context of the good old days, because these days per diem expense money is now taxable, i.e. crew members must account for the amount actually used, and the excess is counted as taxable income. That, and the fact that contract negotiations are now so contentious and adversarial that management might be just as likely to spite the workforce even at the expense of additional expense. IMHO, of course.  

[Edited 2012-12-11 02:43:00]

User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6598 posts, RR: 55
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5019 times:

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 17):
Is there any similar angle for CX crew with HK/Chinese taxation?

Thats exactly how it is here. 'Per Diems' as you call it in America are not taxed here so you still have the situation where it works for everyone.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9041 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4960 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 14):

You know as well as I do and as well as management do that for the average CX flight attendant, outport allowances are not for them to just spend willy-nily for meals but form a large portion of their salary.

That is not the intent, that is why pilots receive the same meal allowances as cabin crew (except for a few ports where cabin crew get more). Many cabin crew do go out and enjoy themselves down route, and then there are the other extreme as you described. Some pilots are exactly the same, all they want to do down route is sleep and read a book.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 14):
It is a reason that the airline gets away with paying new joining salaries of only around US$2 per hour more than the hourly legal minimum wage that say a cleaner or security guard gets in Hong Kong.

It is a market economy, with a unemployment rate of around 3% something must be right for new joiners to still come along (how many thousand did we have turn up for the last set of interviews ?). Many give up, leave and end up coming back to other airlines in HKG for less money. Have a look at the crew bags on those purple uniforms, you will see a lot of CX luggage.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 14):
Flight attendants treat allowances as a large portion of their income and stay in their rooms eating instant noodles they have brought with them from home in order to save their allowances to make up their income shortfall.

Some do, you would also know a lot of them are married, with a family, and love coming to work as their break away from their partner and children.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 14):
By cutting allowances, the company saves potentially more than the 2% pay rise they are offering and the crew affected would get an overall pay cut.

They have not "cut" the allowance, the formula is based upon the hotel they stay at, and for what meals etc. It is not a per diem, the allowance for 24 hrs in BKK is paid in THB (say 2000), associated with the cost of meals at that hotel, it is different to the allowance for 24 hrs in LAX which is paid in USD which is associated with the cost of meals at that hotel. The BKK allowance is about half of the LAX allowance, and yet you get cabin crew swapping into it.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 14):
What transport sector in Hong Kong are you comparing us to? Bus drivers? Taxi drivers? Are they even relevant?

It is not my "sector", it is GovHK. It covers everyone in that sector, including all the corporate jobs, and other airlines.

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 17):
Is there any similar angle for CX crew with HK/Chinese taxation?

HKG has the first $100,000 or so tax free, most cabin crew would pay less than 5% tax anyway.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6598 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4939 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 14):

You know as well as I do and as well as management do that for the average CX flight attendant, outport allowances are not for them to just spend willy-nily for meals but form a large portion of their salary.

That is not the intent, that is why pilots receive the same meal allowances as cabin crew (except for a few ports where cabin crew get more). Many cabin crew do go out and enjoy themselves down route, and then there are the other extreme as you described. Some pilots are exactly the same, all they want to do down route is sleep and read a book.

Intent or not, this is what is has become. I would say that for 99% of pilots, choosing to relax and "read a book" is through choice whereas ask one of the junior crew who save most of their allowances and they will tell you it is through neccesity.

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 14):
Flight attendants treat allowances as a large portion of their income and stay in their rooms eating instant noodles they have brought with them from home in order to save their allowances to make up their income shortfall.

Some do, you would also know a lot of them are married, with a family, and love coming to work as their break away from their partner and children.

I think we need to make a bit of a distinction here for those who do not understand the CX cabin crew contracts. The more senior crew are on older contracts which are better paying than the newer contracts. They are also in more senior positions meaning their salaries are much much higher than the new joiners salaries.

All crew joining the last few years have been on hourly contracts and starting salary is pretty low. It can take 10+ years before a promotion above the first rank and hence most of these new joining crew do not intend to remain as cabin crew for a career. For them it is a short term job, a chance to see the world before they go and get a real career. Obviously this does not apply to everyone but to the majority.

Zeke those crew you mention with children etc tend to be the older ones, many on different contracts. Now it won't be long before our cabin crew numbers hit 10,000 and because there are far more crew in the initial rank than the Inflight Services Manager rank, most of the crew are the junior position and most of that rank are hourly crew. They stand to potentially lose the most from adjusting the schedules and losing allowances.

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 14):
By cutting allowances, the company saves potentially more than the 2% pay rise they are offering and the crew affected would get an overall pay cut.

They have not "cut" the allowance, the formula is based upon the hotel they stay at, and for what meals etc. It is not a per diem, the allowance for 24 hrs in BKK is paid in THB (say 2000), associated with the cost of meals at that hotel, it is different to the allowance for 24 hrs in LAX which is paid in USD which is associated with the cost of meals at that hotel. The BKK allowance is about half of the LAX allowance, and yet you get cabin crew swapping into it.

I know they have not cut allowances. The crew claim that CX are proposing to roster the flights in a different way and the end result is that the crew will be pocketing much less allowances per month than they have been. Now I see the company has said something about this concern but obviously the union wants more than just a non-contractual paragraph written as a news snippet to staff.


User currently offlinesenliture From Australia, joined May 2000, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4909 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 14):

So let me get this straight. Salaries against inflation are decreasing so everyone effectively has a pay cut and a decreased living standard because of their inability to keep up with inflation and you have difficulty understanding why people are unhappy? So.....people should be happy that cost of living is increasing faster than their ability to keep up with?

I see that you are still a student so perhaps you have not felt any of this first hand yet, but I suppose that instead of working and getting a bigger flat as your career progresses, perhaps buying a car, perhaps getting married and having children that you think it is normal for salaries to continually decrease so I guess if you can't afford those things when you are a junior staff of a large company then you should expect never to be able to afford to get those things because to want more would simply be whinging and you can't understand why people would do that right?

Hi CX Flyboy,

Thanks for reminding me to update my profile, have been here for some 12 years but never notice my profile remained the same since I joined. I have certainly ventured into the real world for some years, may not be as many as others, in fact I am financially independent for almost 10 years now, and I think I have a good feeling on how the economy works.

I have worked in a few roles, and faced the eternal question of pay rise. Like I said earlier, I do not see why pay rise must associate with inflation. If you and your team perform well, you will get more. If you and your team is not as good, you get less. That's how the world works. Inflation from my point of view, is to differentiate betters from others. Of course one would argue that it's a flat increment for all, and I still not getting more. My take is, that's what promotion is for. You outperform the rest, you can promoted and you get a bigger pay cheque. So, for a few years you may have less to spend, but once you are at a stage that you are better than the others, you get promoted and get more. Free economy anyone?

Now, adding the not as good financial results from Cathay, does 2% increment sounds all bad again? You can always ask for more, and that's what I do at work as well, but you still need to face the reality. Reality is, Cathay is not earning money last year, so why 2% is not something to view positively?

Lastly, throwing the public impact into the equation, now you see why I am not supportive of this act at all.

I see Qantas was a great airline before, but the strikes, the neverending AJ debacle has certainly made Qantas not appealing anymore. Will Cathay be next because of this? In the last few strikes Cathay was lucky to have network expansion opportunities, sailed through a few industry-wide crisis, but pressure is on the strategists who of course are sitting in the air-conditioned offices. Do they get per diem and overtime? I doubt.

Regards,

Senliture


User currently offlinemarchie From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4803 times:

Cathay Pacific has just welcomed the decision not to strike over Christmas & New Year.

The following is taken from Cathay Pacific's Media Centre.

Link:

http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_...b24598b310VgnVCM62000007d21c39____

Article:

Cathay Pacific Airways today welcomed the announcement by the Flight Attendants Union (FAU) not to stage a strike during the peak travel period over Christmas and New Year.

Chief Executive John Slosar said, "This is good news for our passengers, for all Cathay Pacific staff and for the Hong Kong travelling public."

He added, "Working together as a team to make the airline successful is in everybody's interest, and I think we should never miss a chance to deliver the very best service to our passengers."

Mr. Slosar continued, "Aviation has been a difficult business in 2012, and we have tried very hard to explain the challenges we have faced to our staff. In total over the past 3 years even after the 2% awarded this year, most of our staff have received pay increases totalling almost 12%, plus an additional 13th month bonus in each of those 3 years, and I think this is a pretty good result given the performance of our business. The Cathay team do a fantastic job so we always try to look after them as best we can. The pay increases we have awarded in recent years show that, when times are good, we share the benefits with the Cathay team."

Cathay Pacific wrote to the FAU at the end of last week inviting them to continue discussions on lifestyle and operational matters, but as yet has not received any response.

General Manager Cabin Crew Liza Ng said, "We are still waiting to hear from them and hope we will soon."


User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4748 times:

Quoting senliture (Reply 21):
I have worked in a few roles, and faced the eternal question of pay rise. Like I said earlier, I do not see why pay rise must associate with inflation. If you and your team perform well, you will get more. If you and your team is not as good, you get less. That's how the world works. Inflation from my point of view, is to differentiate betters from others. Of course one would argue that it's a flat increment for all, and I still not getting more. My take is, that's what promotion is for. You outperform the rest, you can promoted and you get a bigger pay cheque. So, for a few years you may have less to spend, but once you are at a stage that you are better than the others, you get promoted and get more. Free economy anyone?

Wow, it must be nice to part of the 1%. You and Mitt Romney (or whoever your equivalent Aussie politician is) should hang out.

You might not understand this, but just because you work hard doesn't mean you'll get a raise or promoted. In an optimum world, it would, but you can get paid less and work far harder but nobody above you cares.

I don't know why having milk costs a greater percentage of my income is somehow a reflection of my work performance.



Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
User currently offlineCatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4695 times:

No Smiles? No booze? Oh no!

Cathay Pacific Crew Threatens No-Smile, No-Booze Strike: http://www.businessinsider.com/catha...booze-strike-2012-12#ixzz2EkzZWGb9

Says union general secretary Tsang Kwok-fung: "We will be selective in providing our services...This could include not smiling at passengers, not providing certain types of beverages — such as alcohol — or stop serving meals... In a nutshell it means passengers will still be able to reach their destinations except they are paying a five-star price to get a three-star service."


User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2718 posts, RR: 4
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4788 times:

Quoting Catiii (Reply 24):
No Smiles? No booze? Oh no!

Cathay Pacific Crew Threatens No-Smile, No-Booze Strike: http://www.businessinsider.com/catha...booze-strike-2012-12#ixzz2EkzZWGb9

Says union general secretary Tsang Kwok-fung: "We will be selective in providing our services...This could include not smiling at passengers, not providing certain types of beverages — such as alcohol — or stop serving meals... In a nutshell it means passengers will still be able to reach their destinations except they are paying a five-star price to get a three-star service."

I'm flying CX to Oz from CDG via HKG on 18th in J for Christmas. This is the sort of union action that I hate: punish the public, not the company and "call off Christmas." Isn't it MIRACULOUS that it's always at Christmas that this happens?



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineCatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4768 times:



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 25):
I'm flying CX to Oz from CDG via HKG on 18th in J for Christmas. This is the sort of union action that I hate: punish the public, not the company and "call off Christmas." Isn't it MIRACULOUS that it's always at Christmas that this happens?

I'm not so sure it does anything to help engender support for their efforts either from the passengers.

I won't post the link to the photos (which are easy to find on Google) but I wonder if the Flight attendant's action also means the pilot's won't be seeing any action moving forward until the dispute is resolved: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches...ss-pilot-oral-sex-cockpit-photo-ho

[Edited 2012-12-11 14:23:09]

[Edited 2012-12-11 14:23:30]

User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6598 posts, RR: 55
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4785 times:

Quoting senliture (Reply 21):
If you and your team is not as good, you get less. That's how the world works. Inflation from my point of view, is to differentiate betters from others. Of course one would argue that it's a flat increment for all, and I still not getting more. My take is, that's what promotion is for. You outperform the rest, you can promoted and you get a bigger pay cheque. So, for a few years you may have less to spend, but once you are at a stage that you are better than the others, you get promoted and get more

As someone else pointed out, that is unrealistic idealism. As I mentionned before, our crew remain in that junior positon for a great number of years till they are senior enough to be considered for promotion. Most of them do not regard being a cabin attendant as a long term job and hence for them, there is only one pay scale to be considered. As I said, it might be 10 years till they are senior enough till promotion. So you're suggesting no pay rise until they get promoted?
Also with your theory, lets say a crew joining today takes 25 years to become Inflight Services Manager and that their pay has risen not through the rank having inflation increments but through that individiual getting promotions. By the time they reach ISM, they are earning the same monetary value as an ISM did say 40 years prior. Needless to say that money 40 years ago is a lot less now. For the individual concerned, it was a pay rise from their previous rank though. Do you think its perfectly aceptable for that crew member knowing that they have worked just as hard and jumped through all the hoops just as well to earn money that is worth a lot less then their peers got?

Quoting senliture (Reply 21):
Now, adding the not as good financial results from Cathay, does 2% increment sounds all bad again? You can always ask for more, and that's what I do at work as well, but you still need to face the reality. Reality is, Cathay is not earning money last year, so why 2% is not something to view positively?

Like I said, you're only reading the headlines and not the full story. You can't make your mind up over an issue merely by reading part of the story. I agree with you based on what you say, a 2% payrise at a time of potential financial year-end losses is more than one would expect....but thats not the story.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 25):
I'm flying CX to Oz from CDG via HKG on 18th in J for Christmas. This is the sort of union action that I hate: punish the public, not the company and "call off Christmas." Isn't it MIRACULOUS that it's always at Christmas that this happens?

Unfortunately things like this need to be done for maximum impact...."punishing" the public is the only trump card they hold as I said before, what other threats can crew make? I am sure they would welcome suggestions to extract what they want from management while leaving passengers out of the picture.


User currently offlineqf340500 From Singapore, joined Oct 2011, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4714 times:

to Oz Global: I am 100% on your side and i am fed up with this BS from unions.... no matter how people try to justify their actions... I am PAYING FOR their salary and I would like to have what i pay for (its normal in a supermarlet as well, right???). If the unions are not happy wit the emloyer, then don't fight it out over the person who actually PAYS FOR your da** salary!

User currently offlineqf340500 From Singapore, joined Oct 2011, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4680 times:

how can one woman, the chairwoman of the cabin-crew union, influence negatively so many peoples (customers) travel plans and jeopardize employment for CX employees in general?

User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4659 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 9):
If people feel they are under valued, they would be free to try to obtain alternative employment,

What is wrong with trying to fix the place you're at first?


User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6598 posts, RR: 55
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4606 times:

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 28):
If the unions are not happy wit the emloyer, then don't fight it out over the person who actually PAYS FOR your da** salary!

Who or what would you suggest fighting it out over? If there is a better alternative I am sure the unions would love to hear it. No-one enjoys messing up people's plans but you have to do what you have to do to try and improve your own livlihood before you go worrying about others.


User currently offlineqf340500 From Singapore, joined Oct 2011, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4539 times:

Not sure if "she" doesn't enjoy messing up people's plans, it sounds like at least she doesn't really care about paying customers (not only people's) plans.

1.) A way would be to accept the invitation for talks and discussion Mr. Slosar is talking about and which the unions apparently didn't even react on.

2.) Or, like they did recently in the Lufthansa case, use a arbitrator (is that the right translation? in german its called "schlichter") who can 1.) take the heat out by calling for a mandatory mutual truce and 2.) tries to find a balance between the two parties, ever thought of that? I think they do something like that in Australia as well.


User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6598 posts, RR: 55
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4499 times:

Quoting qf340500 (Reply 32):
Not sure if "she" doesn't enjoy messing up people's plans, it sounds like at least she doesn't really care about paying customers (not only people's) plans.

You do realise that a union is not one person right? A quote from leader or spokesperson should be representative of the feelings of all the union members so you can't really single out a single person to criticise.

I don't know the ins and outs of the offer to talk but I have been here long enough to know that company press releases about offers are always to be taken with a pinch of salt. An offer to talk may be an offer to talk about certain things only, or perhaps there has already been enough talking with the conversation going round in circles and without an indication of willingness to really discuss with an open mind it is pointless to talk more. Like I say, I don't know the details here but I suspect that the FAU would be happy to talk if they genuinely though the company wanted to discuss issues. So many 'talks' go nowhere with everything being knocked down by the company with no intention of compromise. That's when a union would want to escalate things to the next step.

As for your second point, having been privvy to talks between the pilots union and management, I know that CX refuses to have any non staff involved in talks from the union side. They simply do not want anyone but themselves with the 'expertise' in union/management relationships.


User currently offlineqf340500 From Singapore, joined Oct 2011, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4475 times:

ok, understood, thanks for the inside, guess its really hard to see from outside the company whats going on.

But i am still not HAPPY about them messing up my plans maybe... 


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9041 posts, RR: 75
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4429 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 20):
I would say that for 99% of pilots, choosing to relax and "read a book" is through choice whereas ask one of the junior crew who save most of their allowances and they will tell you it is through neccesity.

And I see a lot of the same crew with the latest handbags, latest phones, latest fashion etc etc. I am not buying into this hand to mouth existence for the majority of them as you are painting. I know I have spoken to a few who also run the household and support their parents on their wage, for them I know it is not easy. For those I have genuine concern as the government provide their parent with no support in HKG.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 20):
The more senior crew are on older contracts which are better paying than the newer contracts. They are also in more senior positions meaning their salaries are much much higher than the new joiners salaries.

You are out of touch a little on the makup of the crew, hourly based crew are found in almost every rank. You will find that people got promoted past other crew who elected to stay on the 76 hr/month contracts.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 20):
It can take 10+ years before a promotion above the first rank and hence most of these new joining crew do not intend to remain as cabin crew for a career.

And it can take as little as 3 years, it all depends on how hard they are willing to work.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 20):
For them it is a short term job, a chance to see the world before they go and get a real career. Obviously this does not apply to everyone but to the majority.

I do not see why these people who have no intention of making a career out of the airline should then be upsetting our passengers, and hence the people who have made a career out of the airline.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 20):
They stand to potentially lose the most from adjusting the schedules and losing allowances.

What you are not mentioning is they do more trips per month now, they get more salary by flying more hours, however by doing so they get less time off down route as a result. Before they may have flown 75-85 hrs in a month, now they are flying normally over a 100. For the hourly paid crew, their salary component has gone up, as they are flying more hours.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 20):
The crew claim that CX are proposing to roster the flights in a different way and the end result is that the crew will be pocketing much less allowances per month than they have been.

I have not seen evidence of this, crews are flying more hours, and we are operating more routes than ever before at high frequencies. Month to month the amount of allowances received would vary significantly depending on rosters.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 25):

This is the sort of union action that I hate: punish the public, not the company and "call off Christmas." Isn't it MIRACULOUS that it's always at Christmas that this happens?

I agree, however I disagree with the use of the word “hate”. It is such harsh word to describe an emotion towards another human.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 27):

Unfortunately things like this need to be done for maximum impact...."punishing" the public is the only trump card they hold as I said before, what other threats can crew make?

To me it is more of a sign of how poor their union leadership is these days.

Quoting cmf (Reply 30):

What is wrong with trying to fix the place you're at first?

Did you read this above ?? 13th month is worth around 8-9% each year, plus an additional 10-12%

Quoting marchie (Reply 22):
In total over the past 3 years even after the 2% awarded this year, most of our staff have received pay increases totalling almost 12%, plus an additional 13th month bonus in each of those 3 years, and I think this is a pretty good result given the performance of our business.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6598 posts, RR: 55
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4397 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 35):
And I see a lot of the same crew with the latest handbags, latest phones, latest fashion etc etc. I am not buying into this hand to mouth existence for the majority of them as you are painting.
Quoting zeke (Reply 35):
13th month is worth around 8-9% each year, plus an additional 10-12%

So Zeke may I read between the lines to assume that in your opinion the crew are paid fairly well, have already got a large pay raise incuding the 2% and therefore all this industrial action talk is pure greed and nonsense? If so may I suggest it is not me who is out of touch! You do not have to speak to many CX crew to know exactly what their feelings are about this profession and their contracts and the direction things are going and this applies to both cockpit and cabin crew.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9041 posts, RR: 75
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4355 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 36):
So Zeke may I read between the lines to assume that in your opinion the crew are paid fairly well, have already got a large pay raise incuding the 2% and therefore all this industrial action talk is pure greed and nonsense?

They are your words not mine. I made the observation that the very crew that seem you have portrayed as living on a hand to mouth existence also seem to able to have the latest in technology and fashion.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 36):
If so may I suggest it is not me who is out of touch!

Do you know junior crew in the UK would earn about £250 a week GROSS ? Fact is that as job of junior cabin crew, does not matter where in the world we are talking is an entry level job, and the remuneration reflects that.

By any chance is your wife crew ?

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 36):
You do not have to speak to many CX crew to know exactly what their feelings are about this profession and their contracts and the direction things are going and this applies to both cockpit and cabin crew.

How would you know ? Everyone I know of (myself included) says this industry was not what it was 20 years ago, we are never going back, the past is the past. BTW, I would call a doctor, engineer, dentist etc professionals working in a profession, i.e. requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive academic preparation.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6598 posts, RR: 55
Reply 38, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4331 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 37):
They are your words not mine.

I don't see a denial of my assumption though. Would you care to put your opinion in black and white? I'm curious to see your opinion on the matter.

Quoting zeke (Reply 37):
I made the observation that the very crew that seem you have portrayed as living on a hand to mouth existence also seem to able to have the latest in technology and fashion.

Well this is something I have not observed in particular. Most crew granted have a smartphone, moderate brand-name clothes, iPads etc when I see them on an overnight. I never suggested that these people were on the poverty line but if you live in Hong Kong you will know that is very normal, even for people earning entry-level university-graduate type of salaries. Ever gone to a public housing estate and seen the cars in the carpark or the way people dress there? For many people in Hong Kong outward appearance is very important to them and they choose to spend their precious money on such consumer products. I do not agree neccessarily that just because they have the money to buy a few of these items that they do not deserve pay rises and certainly I believe everyone...EVERYONE in a job cannot be blamed for striving for better pay and conditions over time.

...and no my wife is not, nor has she ever been crew. I just support my fellow crew and their interests.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7496 posts, RR: 18
Reply 39, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4318 times:

Buddy of mine received an email from CX about his upcoming trip from NRT-HKG....he said that should a strike occur, he is being offered a voucher to fly on JL instead the day before his scheduled flight, again, should a strike occur....he's planning on flying on Feb.2....anyone else get anything like this??

Of course this buddy is one of the highest-ranked members of CX's frequent flyer program....

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 2):
has cathay ever gone on strike before?

Apparently the cabin crew walked out in the early 90s around the same time frame.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2718 posts, RR: 4
Reply 40, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4250 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 27):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 25):
I'm flying CX to Oz from CDG via HKG on 18th in J for Christmas. This is the sort of union action that I hate: punish the public, not the company and "call off Christmas." Isn't it MIRACULOUS that it's always at Christmas that this happens?

Unfortunately things like this need to be done for maximum impact...."punishing" the public is the only trump card they hold

Then they should never again allow themselves to take pride in their "service culture" or "client centric attitude" as it is a lie. There can be no 'part time' industrial terrorism...



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2718 posts, RR: 4
Reply 41, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4248 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 35):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 25):

This is the sort of union action that I hate: punish the public, not the company and "call off Christmas." Isn't it MIRACULOUS that it's always at Christmas that this happens?

I agree, however I disagree with the use of the word “hate”. It is such harsh word to describe an emotion towards another human.

Then you're disagreeing with yourself, not me. I said, "I hate this sort of ACTION", and I really, really mean it. Never said I hated any 'human being'...



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 42, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4200 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 35):
Did you read this above ?? 13th month is worth around 8-9% each year, plus an additional 10-12%

Yes I did. My comment still stand. Why not try to fix the issues you have at the place you're at before moving on?

The 13th month is just one part of the package. If you think you can get a better package why shouldn't you? Companies o it all the time. Why shouldn't employees?


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9041 posts, RR: 75
Reply 43, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4069 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 38):
I don't see a denial of my assumption though. Would you care to put your opinion in black and white? I'm curious to see your opinion on the matter.

My opinion, which is backed up with the evidence of the number of new hires that turn up and apply each time CX advertises, is that CX seem to pay above the market rate. I do not know the exact numbers, I would guess CX sees 10 applicants for every new position (I guess 2000 applicants for 200 positions). No one is forcing people to turn up and apply, go through the interview process, and then sign the contract. The unemployment rate in HKG is VERY low, the market drives wages. CX pay more than other airlines in HKG, have better benefits, and do not need to clean the aircraft, dress the cabin etc between flights. I think CX also pays better than many of the banks in HKG do for new joiners, and they work longer hours in banks etc.

As you said yourself, a lot of these new crew see it as a paid 2 year holiday to see the world.

Now that I have stated what I think, over to you.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 38):
I never suggested that these people were on the poverty line

Could have fooled me by the way you portrayed them above. I do not disagree that many appear to be frugal with their allowances and time down route, however I think it is misguided to ASSUME that the only reason for this is due to their wages.

I suspect the real issue is they are being utilised more productively, flying more hours per month (they get paid for the additional hours). I have not had one person actually tell me they are financially worst off (which is not the same as less allowances). I have had many tell me they have less days off down route and back in HKG, they still get a lot more time off than I get, however other fleets work less.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 38):
Ever gone to a public housing estate and seen the cars in the carpark or the way people dress there?

Of course, and I have seen people live on the street, know where people rent rooms etc. That is HKG, it takes all types. I see street markets, all the way to the 6 star shops in IFC. I see BCs all the way to senior management, there are differences, it is the market.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 38):
I just support my fellow crew and their interests.

I do as well, when it is justified, I just think it is misguided in this case, that is my opinion. I actually think Beccy did a better job representing the whole FAU membership than the current lot. Her methods did not draw headlines, and they took time, and were inclusive of the whole membership. Using the legal mechanisms available, they improved the conditions for everyone in HKG, even millions of people outside the airline. The current lot in my view do not represent the view of the whole FAU membership and lack the longer term strategies.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 41):

Then you're disagreeing with yourself, not me. I said, "I hate this sort of ACTION", and I really, really mean it. Never said I hated any 'human being'...

I dislike the word being used in the context, it is too strong to be used in a civil discussion (i.e. extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward). Extreme means the very worst, there is a lot worse.

Quoting cmf (Reply 42):

Yes I did. My comment still stand. Why not try to fix the issues you have at the place you're at before moving on?

10+% more each year for the last 3 years ? What other jobs are doing that ? did you get that ? That is on their basic salary, they are working more hours as well, their salary is a basic plus hourly rate x hours worked above a threshold.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6598 posts, RR: 55
Reply 44, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4024 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 43):
My opinion, which is backed up with the evidence of the number of new hires that turn up and apply each time CX advertises, is that CX seem to pay above the market rate. I do not know the exact numbers, I would guess CX sees 10 applicants for every new position (I guess 2000 applicants for 200 positions). No one is forcing people to turn up and apply, go through the interview process, and then sign the contract. The unemployment rate in HKG is VERY low, the market drives wages. CX pay more than other airlines in HKG, have better benefits, and do not need to clean the aircraft, dress the cabin etc between flights. I think CX also pays better than many of the banks in HKG do for new joiners, and they work longer hours in banks etc.

As you said yourself, a lot of these new crew see it as a paid 2 year holiday to see the world.

Now that I have stated what I think, over to you.

My opinion is that many new joining crew do not see being a cabin crew as a career and I think that is a real shame. I think the service standards are slipping as a result of this and this is directly related to how hard a cabin crew member works vs their remuneration. Correct no-one is forcing people to interview for the job but as I have said elsewhere, this is the case for all jobs pretty much. Should it stop people from striving for better pay and conditions? Of course not!! My opinion is that if you want better pay and conditions that you have to go out there and fight for it because any company is only going to pay just enough, and not a cent more (Understandably, why should they?). Fighting for it is the only way. The company constantly strives to cut costs and employees are seen as a cost. Why should employees not constantly strive to get better conditons?
The way I see it, working for a company is mutually beneficial. We are all a team, a family if you like. We work hard, everyone benefits. Staff groups are appreciated all round and when managers get large pay rises, so should the general staff. Now I know that does happen a little bit here but managment salaries have gone up a fair amount the last 10 years yet I've seen less than 3% (from memory) pay rise to my pay scale in that 10 years...yes 3% TOTAL....in 10 years!!! Now I would be willing to bet that there isn't a manager in the company that has had only a 3% pay rise to his/her rank in the last 10 years. Does that make me feel like a valued employee? Now thats just me, but I do not believe the cabin crew see it much differently.
The company pay them just enough to keep staff turnover at acceptable rates and not more...why should they right? Management are never going to know how far you can push things until you cross the line then reign it in a little bit. I feel that this is their way of handling staff in many aspects. Does it make sense economically? Perhaps...from an accounting view. Does it generate harmony, willingness to go above and beyond amongst the general staff population? Of course not.

Quoting zeke (Reply 43):
I do as well, when it is justified, I just think it is misguided in this case, that is my opinion. I actually think Beccy did a better job representing the whole FAU membership than the current lot. Her methods did not draw headlines, and they took time, and were inclusive of the whole membership. Using the legal mechanisms available, they improved the conditions for everyone in HKG, even millions of people outside the airline. The current lot in my view do not represent the view of the whole FAU membership and lack the longer term strategies.

As I have said, I don't know the ins and outs of this arguement. I shall try and find out on my next duty however I will always support anyone trying to better their terms and conditions. It is always worth a try, afterall the company are always trying to cut salary and benefits to us, so why should staff not try to resist the downward trend?

Perhaps you have just accepted that the continuous downward slide of terms and conditions is unstoppable and have thus accepted it in your mind. I get disheartened when I think of how things were in the glory days and not only the money side of things but management/staff relations were good. People would bend over backwards to help the company when they needed it. The company would try and take care of employees instead of cut conditions to as low as they can get away with. Pilots and cabin crew would go into work after a typhoon and volunteer to help in case they were needed. Everyone was happy and service standards were top notch. How times have changed when 99% of crew view the company with distain, treat them as a neccessary evil, do nothing to help beyond contractual obligations. Forget easily won and biased awards and speak to frequent travellers who almost all agree that standards have dropped over the years. I grew up deeply admiring this company. I had them on a pedestal in my mind and want those days to come back. I really want to admire the company like I did when I was a child. I believe I am one of the few pilots that really does love CX and the brand. Highly unrealistic in my opinion to expect the glory days again but doesn't this all just drag you down? I don't always wish to take sides but as humans it is very hard to stay impartial and if I have to pick a side, I know which side I'm picking....do you?

[Edited 2012-12-12 09:03:09]

User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9041 posts, RR: 75
Reply 45, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3977 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 44):
I think the service standards are slipping as a result of this and this is directly related to how hard a cabin crew member works vs their remuneration.

I actually think it is when a greater percentage of local crew were hired, the expat crew really tried to make a go of it, and really tried fit in. I suggest if you have a chance to fly on a few other carriers, and you will actually see the CX product is actually very good on a global scale. The whole industry in my view has gone backwards in terms of service, it is somewhat of a litmus test of the younger generation. I shake my head see them going out in restaurants these days, people are not longer talking to each other, they send each other messages via their phones on the same table.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 44):
Now I know that does happen a little bit here but managment salaries have gone up a fair amount the last 10 years yet I've seen less than 3% (from memory) pay rise to my pay scale in that 10 years...yes 3% TOTAL....in 10 years!!! Now I would be willing to bet that there isn't a manager in the company that has had only a 3% pay rise to his/her rank in the last 10 years.

Mine has gone backwards, and I fly 30+% more hours, more nights, and less time off. That is the nature of the job, and not uncommon with other carriers.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 44):
I shall try and find out on my next duty however I will always support anyone trying to better their terms and conditions.

I do not just go around supporting "anyone", I guess we are different.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 44):
. I get disheartened when I think of how things were in the glory days and not only the money side of things but management/staff relations were good. People would bend over backwards to help the company when they needed it. The company would try and take care of employees instead of cut conditions to as low as they can get away with. Pilots and cabin crew would go into work after a typhoon and volunteer to help in case they were needed. Everyone was happy and service standards were top notch. How times have changed when 99% of crew view the company with distain, treat them as a neccessary evil, do nothing to help beyond contractual obligations.

Things were better in the past, that is where it will remain. Unlike your description, I do help out when needed, and I do additional unpaid activities. I do call up and see if I can be of assistance if the Wx is bad, cancellations etc, my bigger picture is to serve our paying customers. My colleagues also know they can call on me if needed, if they have an urgent family matter or illness etc, I am more than happy to help them. Some have also returned the gesture when I have needed it in the past.

There is a time an place for everything, when the chips are down, I think we should all be helping to get things back on the road. To me that means I will go in and help out if there are a lot of disruptions due Wx etc on my normal day off. When it is peak travel periods, we should all be working to get our paying customers to their loved ones. I really like working those times of year, passengers are electric with excitement to get to where they want to go, and I am happy to help them make that possible. If that means I work every holiday, that is part of the territory. Maybe I am just too old school. Job satisfaction to me does not have a dollar value.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 46, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 43):
10+% more each year for the last 3 years ? What other jobs are doing that ? did you get that ?

10% bonus per year, many places do that. Trying to do this about what I do is beside the point.

Reality is that there is nothing wrong with employees negotiating to get what they think is fair. A potential additional months salary is only part of the packages as doesn't mean you shouldn't negotiate if you think you're worth more. And you most certainly should not walk just because managements bid isn't what you think is fair.

And that is the point. Employees have every right, and I'd even say obligation, to negotiate for the best deal they can get. I certainly do not want employees to walk just because they are not happy about something. High turnover is very expensive and makes it almost impossible to maintain standards.

My task as an employer is to make sure they understand what is realistic and get the best deal for my company. Just as I do with every supplier. and they do with me.


User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6598 posts, RR: 55
Reply 47, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3793 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 45):
Mine has gone backwards, and I fly 30+% more hours, more nights, and less time off. That is the nature of the job, and not uncommon with other carriers.

Yet you seem to have accepted your fate. I'm speechless.

Quoting zeke (Reply 45):
Unlike your description, I do help out when needed, and I do additional unpaid activities. I do call up and see if I can be of assistance if the Wx is bad, cancellations etc, my bigger picture is to serve our paying customers. My colleagues also know they can call on me if needed, if they have an urgent family matter or illness etc, I am more than happy to help them. Some have also returned the gesture when I have needed it in the past.

I admire your work ethic, however morale is such that you must realise that you are in the severe minority in feeling this way, especially since there have been newsletters talking about exactly this and how other crew are financially affected by single people working to their own personal gain, be it monetary or otherwise. I'm assuming you do not receive those newsletters. Still, it is your choice and the company I am sure regards you as an asset.

Quoting zeke (Reply 45):
when the chips are down, I think we should all be helping to get things back on the road.

I agree, IF and its a big IF, the feeling is reciprocated and unfortunately overall the general feeling (Whether you personally agree or not) is that it is hardly ever reciprocated....and just to steer this back towards topic, I would say the cabin crew feel this way as well. Having spoken to a crew member this morning I understand a little more that the pay issue is just one part of the overall greivances that this is about. They have apparently tried to talk about many different issues and have felt that they have been talking to a brick wall. The media is not reporting any of the other issues at hand as I suppose they are a little too technical for the casual reader to understand within a small article. I gather that none of the issues in themselves are huge, but that there are so many smal issues combined that they feel like they have had enough and need to elevate above just 'talking' to the next level to try and get their attention. They have used this tactic several times over the last few years and by and large it has worked for them, hence why they do it.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9041 posts, RR: 75
Reply 48, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3609 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 46):
A potential additional months salary is only part of the packages as doesn't mean you shouldn't negotiate if you think you're worth more.

The cabin crew elected a new leadership a while back, and that leadership did negotiate and signed the pay deal at the conclusion of those negotiations. From what I have been informed the union leadership did not put the deal to the members before signing, many different areas of the membership feel like the deal did not represent their wishes, they feel is was pandering to one group of employees more than another. This is a failing of the union, not the company.

Quoting cmf (Reply 46):
And you most certainly should not walk just because managements bid isn't what you think is fair.

It is common knowledge that we have in the junior ranks a high turnover, these are people who never saw flying as a career, they are using the experience as a paid holiday. Throwing money at them is not not going to change their life plans they had before joining the company, this is industry wide, not just our company.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 47):
Yet you seem to have accepted your fate. I'm speechless.

I cannot change things back the way they were 20 years ago, I cannot stop people paying for their type ratings, working for free, and even the great expansion of LCCs. Legacy airlines need to adapt to remain competitive, and so does their workforce. Have a look at how many airlines in worldwide have collapsed because the staff would not become more efficient. I do benchmark what I do with my contemporaries in other airlines, it is still better the most of the industry. I know other airline pilots doing over 1000 stick hours a year (eg Korean), where long haul hours are factored down.

I am happy to become more efficient if that means as an airline we have longevity. However the basis for doing that should be with scientific support.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 47):

I admire your work ethic, however morale is such that you must realise that you are in the severe minority in feeling this way, especially since there have been newsletters talking about exactly this and how other crew are financially affected by single people working to their own personal gain, be it monetary or otherwise.

I assume you are talking about the AOA. I am not talking about going into work on a nice day like today when CC might be shopping around for someone on lower overtime threshold to do a flight, I know they have people on reserve able to cover any last minute aircraft swaps or sickness. I am talking about major disruptions, the sort where the company posts on the public website notification of possible extensive delays. The two scenarios are very different, a lot of crew cannot seem to understand that concept. As I said, my bigger picture is to serve our paying customers to get them to their destination. Those events are beyond what any normal crew schedule can plan for.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 47):
Having spoken to a crew member this morning I understand a little more that the pay issue is just one part of the overall greivances that this is about. They have apparently tried to talk about many different issues and have felt that they have been talking to a brick wall. The media is not reporting any of the other issues at hand as I suppose they are a little too technical for the casual reader to understand within a small article.

Beccy did this a lot better than many of the members gave her credit for. Some issues are not a matter of negotiation, they should be ruled upon in the labor tribunal. An independent party then decides on the outcome (these are generally to do with interpretation of their contracts), and it binding on the company. The case Beccy recently won returned tens of thousands to crew in all different ranks for past holiday pay, and it had wider implications to employers outside the sector.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6598 posts, RR: 55
Reply 49, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3589 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 48):
Throwing money at them is not not going to change their life plans they had before joining the company, this is industry wide, not just our company.

I disagree actually. Some problems you can just throw money at, and if salaries were higher, and weighted towards more senior crew, then the junior crew in my opinion would want to stay in the airline and work hard towards the higher rankings and earn what they consider to be a good wage packet. Service consistancy would increase and I believe in the long-run we would get back to top award winning form which from a service point of view we tend to be slipping at (Although not from a product point of view).

Quoting zeke (Reply 48):
I cannot stop people paying for their type ratings, working for free, and even the great expansion of LCCs. Legacy airlines need to adapt to remain competitive, and so does their workforce. Have a look at how many airlines in worldwide have collapsed because the staff would not become more efficient. I do benchmark what I do with my contemporaries in other airlines, it is still better the most of the industry.

I agree with you and agree that the glory days are over, however I do believe that we as a group have to battle and battle hard at that to stop the continuous decline of conditions. Having a union that rears its ugly head every now and then is one way to remind a company that staff are no pushovers and that there has to be a balance. I have to credit the FAU for at least trying. It is more than the pilot group are doing unfortunately.

Quoting zeke (Reply 48):
I am not talking about going into work on a nice day like today when CC might be shopping around for someone on lower overtime threshold to do a flight, I know they have people on reserve able to cover any last minute aircraft swaps or sickness.

Oh ok, I did not get that at all from your previous posting. Fair enough.

Quoting zeke (Reply 48):
Beccy did this a lot better than many of the members gave her credit for. Some issues are not a matter of negotiation, they should be ruled upon in the labor tribunal. An independent party then decides on the outcome (these are generally to do with interpretation of their contracts), and it binding on the company. The case Beccy recently won returned tens of thousands to crew in all different ranks for past holiday pay, and it had wider implications to employers outside the sector.

I do not know enough about the new FAU leadership to comment really. I did fly with Becky a few times and she did impress me.
One of the issues the crew are currently unhappy with is apparently that the company has not implemented the holiday pay owed to them and nor have they said to them how or when the money wil be paid back. I don't really know more than that though.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 50, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3455 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 48):
that leadership did negotiate and signed the pay deal at the conclusion of those negotiations.

If there is a contract in place at this time then there are no grounds for these actions. Sorry, I can't imagine actions like this unless there are negotiations and problems reaching a deal.

Quoting zeke (Reply 48):
Throwing money at them is not not going to change their life plans they had before joining the company, this is industry wide, not just our company.

If they are pushing for different terms then there obviously is interest.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 49):
is one way to remind...
that there has to be a balance.

  


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25200 posts, RR: 48
Reply 51, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2945 times:

The flight attendants union and company have settled their dispute.

Main points are:
- A commitment that all destinations will remain available to Hong Kong based crew.
- That crew based outside Hong Kong will not exceed 15 percent of total cabin crew staffing.
- That outport based crew can only operate based routes between outport bases.
- That a minimum of 50 per cent of overall flights to foreign bases will be operated by Hong Kong based crew.
- Immediate 2 percent pay raise

The agreement runs through end of 2014.

Story:
http://www.breakingtravelnews.com/ne...ific-reaches-deal-with-cabin-crew/

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Rumour: Cathay Pacific Pilots To Strike! posted Fri May 4 2001 19:04:59 by Singapore_Air
Cathay Pacific New Regional Business Class posted Mon Sep 24 2012 06:05:56 by ecbomberman
Cathay Pacific 1H Profit Plummets 133% posted Tue Aug 7 2012 23:51:41 by ZKOJH
Cathay Pacific To Order 26 A350-1000 posted Tue Jul 10 2012 04:03:44 by flythere
Cathay Pacific LAX Late Night Flights posted Wed May 23 2012 01:01:06 by speedbird0125
Cathay Pacific Heathrow Crew Base posted Mon May 21 2012 14:32:44 by sq_ek_freak
Cathay Pacific New Premium Y And Y (pics) posted Mon Feb 27 2012 14:57:33 by alaskaqantas
6 More A359 For Cathay Pacific posted Thu Jan 19 2012 23:52:27 by cloudyapple
Cathay Pacific Cargo 748F Code? posted Sun Jan 1 2012 18:03:12 by gdg9
Cathay Pacific Planning EWR Launch Summer 2012 posted Thu Nov 17 2011 17:43:30 by flythere