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UA First Class Cabin: EWR-ZRH  
User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2028 posts, RR: 3
Posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 12847 times:

I few weeks ago I started a thread about F class on UA international routes, why some routes have it and some don't.

It appears that EWR-ZUR is now a COs 767-400 again these days, with no F cabin. The UA 767 with the F class does reappear on the route later in December, and then permanently reverts to the 767-400 again with no F in 2013. The type of aircraft does change some on the route before it reverts back.

So much for the UA F cabin on EWR-ZUR or so it appears. Or maybe I have it wrong?

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 12831 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):

So much for the UA F cabin on EWR-ZUR or so it appears. Or maybe I have it wrong?

I think it has more to do with the fact that quite a few of the 764s have been reconfigured and now can come back to EWR for international services.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1556 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 12674 times:

There was also some mention on FT that they have been having problems with orphan PMUA planes going tech and throwing a wrench into things because there aren't any spares available to pick up the slack at the EWR hub. If I read things correct on that thread, it sounds like PMUA int'l flights to EWR are rotated through Europe as out-and-backs and that somehow there are issues with mx or subbing at this PMCO station vs. if it were a PMUA hub used to those planes.

User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3970 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12435 times:
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Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):
Or maybe I have it wrong?

Probably not. Same thing for EWR-BRU, back to a 764 after a stint with a pmUA 3-class 777. Before the merger, EWR-BRU was crying out for something bigger than the 764, but it doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Whether intentional on the part of UA or merely meeting demand, there seems to be a shift in connecting traffic from EWR to ORD. As EWR-BRU goes back to a 764, ORD-BRU is planned for an up-gauge from a very-often-full 767 to a 777. Might there be a similar trade-off for ZRH?



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26444 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12404 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 2):
If I read things correct on that thread, it sounds like PMUA int'l flights to EWR are rotated through Europe as out-and-backs and that somehow there are issues with mx or subbing at this PMCO station vs. if it were a PMUA hub used to those planes.

They are indeed rotated over the European outstation. That said, its not as if IAD is that far if they need a ferry.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12354 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):
So much for the UA F cabin on EWR-ZUR or so it appears. Or maybe I have it wrong?

It's gotta be temporary. I can't imagine that they would want to fly EWR-ZRH on a plane with no first class product on a regular basis. That's just leaving money on the table.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1556 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12336 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
They are indeed rotated over the European outstation. That said, its not as if IAD is that far if they need a ferry.

That's what my reaction was - 200ish miles surely isn't too far for that (provided there are spares at IAD). Admittedly I am not totally clear on the inside baseball ops issues going on, but it appears as though there is some hangup there that won't be solved until they can fully integrate everything.


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9607 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12286 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 6):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
They are indeed rotated over the European outstation. That said, its not as if IAD is that far if they need a ferry.

That's what my reaction was - 200ish miles surely isn't too far for that (provided there are spares at IAD). Admittedly I am not totally clear on the inside baseball ops issues going on, but it appears as though there is some hangup there that won't be solved until they can fully integrate everything.

An airplane can be ferried in, but it is virtually impossible to ferry a plane in from IAD and have enough crew duty time to dispatch to Europe. There aren't enough PMUA crew in EWR to cover, so the result is that the flight usually cancels.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5436 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12261 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 7):
There aren't enough PMUA crew in EWR to cover

I thought that EWR was crewed by NYC. Given that sCO metal in IAD, DEN and SFO they must have a surplus of crew there, so why don't they just shift them over to NYC?



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1556 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 12056 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 8):

I thought that EWR was crewed by NYC. Given that sCO metal in IAD, DEN and SFO they must have a surplus of crew there, so why don't they just shift them over to NYC?

I think you're correct, at least in that EWR PMUA frames are flown by the PMUA NYC domicile crew base. So that is another interesting question. Maybe it's different for these birds than for an A320 crew though?

[Edited 2012-12-04 12:57:10]

User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4898 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 11972 times:
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Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):
It appears that EWR-ZUR is now a COs 767-400 again these days, with no F cabin

Actually, it gets worse. Effective today until Christmas day, it wil actually be a CO 767-200, not only with no F, but with the old recliner seats in BusinessFirst, and no real Economy Plus section. The 764ER returns only on 12/25 and 12/26, and then it's back to the 762 for the rest of the year, the whole of January, through Feb 3 2013 or so. The 764ER is scheduled to return after that.


User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3402 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 11853 times:

There are a lot of widebodies down for mtc/reconfigs/painting. A rough listing:
1 - 764 in HKG last flat bed reconfig
3 - 763 in GSO for heavy mx
3 - 763 in HKG for 2 class lie flat reconfig
1 - 744 in SFO for wifi
1 - 744 in PEK for heavy mx
1 - 772 in SFO for mx
1 - 772 in VCV for paint
1 - 772 in PEK for heavy mx
1 - 772 in SFO for premium reconfig


and only 5 762 remaining. Oh yea and the 788s are a mess.

UA started to crossfleet the TA flts but they may have pulled back to let the remaining widebodies go through whatever service is needed. I suspect they will try cross fleeting again when the reliability is up. Although where does the mtc workers contract stand. Can mtc be done on a PMUA 763 in EWR?


User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1556 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11758 times:

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 11):
Can mtc be done on a PMUA 763 in EWR?

That may actually be the key, which would explain the worrying about mx. If the 763 goes tech, then they have to bring in UA mx folks if it isn't worth staffing some there yet under their own auspices.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16859 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11724 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Thread starter):

It appears that EWR-ZUR is now a COs 767-400 again these days, with no F cabin

This has mostly been a 764 since the merger, the sUA 3 class 763 is temporary while they complete the 764 modifications. On the other hand EWR-GVA is a solid 3 class sUA route, that has not changed much if any since they first made the switch. EWR-Switzerland does well for UA, and previously CO, due to the pharmaceutical industry ties.

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 11):
Can mtc be done on a PMUA 763 in EWR?

Why not, they're doing sUA 757 work in MCO.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9607 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11690 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 12):
Quoting usairways85 (Reply 11):
Can mtc be done on a PMUA 763 in EWR?

That may actually be the key, which would explain the worrying about mx. If the 763 goes tech, then they have to bring in UA mx folks if it isn't worth staffing some there yet under their own auspices.

For line maintenance repairs, anyone can fix the airplane. Base maintenance is different between the two airlines, but to repair an airplane on the line, either side can fix it. Many outstations are contracted out to other airlines or contract companies.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5436 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11547 times:

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 11):

Thanks for the insight. So it is very likely that widebody swaps right now (not just on this route but any route) are related to a lack of widebody slack over the winter period, and that the summer schedule is more deferminaive of how the route is performing than a three week sub in January.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 9):

Good point re crews. I don't know whether sUA is more like DL or sCO in terms of its FAs cross fleet abilities. DL has all crews able to do anything meaning that an FA could hypothetically fly into ATL on a DC9 from SDF and leave on a 744 to NRT. sCO and (until now) AA have separate domestic and international crew. Obviously sUA wouldn't have any international crew at NYC per-merger if they used this setup. Also, other than a few 757s out of IAD, I can't think of any sUA international routes flown by sCO, so maybe they are a bit too stretched to move staff around .



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinegoldenjet707 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11280 times:

Perhaps all that alleged FC business is not really there?! Were it such a great success, I am sure UA would find a way to route planes with FC through these destinations!

User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11269 times:

Any United crewmember can fly any flight.

NS


User currently offlinegoldenjet707 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11230 times:

sUa FA's can work their aircraft and sCO FA's can work their aircraft, so not any United FA can fly any flight!

User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5436 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11209 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 17):
Any United crewmember can fly any flight.

OK thanks.

Quoting goldenjet707 (Reply 18):

sUa FA's can work their aircraft and sCO FA's can work their aircraft, so not any United FA can fly any flight!

I think he was referring specifically to sUA FAs in reference to:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 15):
I don't know whether sUA is more like DL or sCO in terms of its FAs cross fleet abilities



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2885 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7689 times:
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Quoting STT757 (Reply 13):

I do the EWR to GVA every other month. The last time I flew that route was 5 days ago...it was a 2 class sCO 767 with lie flat BF seats. It has never, ever been a 3 class 767. Only EWR-ZRH.

The 2 United birds at GVA arriving about the same time are 767-3, the one from EWR is in CO livery with UNITED name, the Washington DC flight has Tulip livery and 3 class. Sometimes I take the IAD flight so I can get into F and then take an RJ up to LaGuardia.

IMHO, given the premium pax on the GVA route and competing with LX, United ought to use 3 cabin aircraft all the time. Although even wi



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlinebrightcedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1288 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7539 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
Probably not. Same thing for EWR-BRU, back to a 764 after a stint with a pmUA 3-class 777. Before the merger, EWR-BRU was crying out for something bigger than the 764, but it doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Whether intentional on the part of UA or merely meeting demand, there seems to be a shift in connecting traffic from EWR to ORD. As EWR-BRU goes back to a 764, ORD-BRU is planned for an up-gauge from a very-often-full 767 to a 777. Might there be a similar trade-off for ZRH?

As far as BRU is concerned, it may have more to do with the shift in offer (AA and 9W dropping out, SN came online) than anything else. SN is probably more inclined to fill its own metal before that of UA.



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4450 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5970 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
I can't imagine that they would want to fly EWR-ZRH on a plane with no first class product on a regular basis. That's just leaving money on the table.

CO was flying 2 class for years on EWR-ZRH and the pax using EWR weren't all up in arms about no F cabin, so apparently the New Jersey market is fine with only 8 F seats on this route via Swiss. I guess anyone wanting F would just use Swiss (either from EWR or JFK).

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 11):
Oh yea and the 788s are a mess.

??????????????


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4898 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5037 times:
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Quoting VC10er (Reply 20):
pax on the GVA route and competing with LX,

LX is part of the TATL JV with UA/LH/AC, so they're not competing.


User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4892 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 20):

I do the EWR to GVA every other month. The last time I flew that route was 5 days ago...it was a 2 class sCO 767 with lie flat BF seats. It has never, ever been a 3 class 767. Only EWR-ZRH.

It has been a 3-class 763. I saw it on UA.com about 2 weeks ago.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
25 BMI727 : Maybe or maybe not. It's different when you have no first class product at all. The point is that if you are an airline with some two class and some
26 FURUREFA : Incorrect. I used to nonrev on EWR-GVA every couple of weeks this past summer and it was indeed a s-UA 3-class 763.
27 N62NA : Well, I guess, unless you are UA flying from EWR apparently.
28 RyanairGuru : As said, this appears to be related to aircraft availability and maintenance concerns. Once there is a joint contract, F could well return to this ro
29 FlyDeltaJets : sCO Crews can only crew a sCO airplane and vice versa. Maybe a mess would be exaggerating a bit but there are a lot of mechanical delays on the fligh
30 klwright69 : The point of this thread really is to reach the conlcusion that adding the F cabin on sCO routes from EWR has not exactly been a great success.
31 usairways85 : Summed up below... It is bad enough the plane was delayed as much as it was but now because it is still new UA is having issues. I believe there is a
32 N62NA : Exactly. The bulk of the real premium traffic is using JFK, now EWR.
33 STT757 : JFK's two largest carriers are B6 and DL, neither of which offers International First?[Edited 2012-12-06 07:03:33]
34 Post contains images RyanairGuru : ] Not been a "great success" is probably right, but nobody has produced any figures to suggest that it was due to the market as opposed to operationa
35 Post contains images VC10er : Well I guess I have not been lucky the past 5 years. I have a huge client in GVA and do fly UA (and CO Pre merger) and never, ever once did I sit in
36 tommy767 : Most people in NYC are loyal to DL or B6. People in NJ are loyal to UA.
37 N62NA : Then the point you bring up is spurious, i.e. nonsense. My point is that the bulk of the premium traffic that isn't in NJ uses JFK. You can't argue t
38 gigneil : I meant any sUA FA can crew any sUA flight... NS
39 deltairlines : Nonetheless, nearly every premium long haul route out of JFK has someone offering true International F on it. Heathrow as AA/BA. CDG has AF. FRA has
40 N62NA : Exactly. But the EWR fans simply can't accept some basic facts and instead try to present counter-arguments to take attention away from EWR's deficie
41 VC10er : Premium pax are loyal to the company contracts more than airports or airlines. My guess anyway. My company has Star contracts, if I wanted to fly Del
42 RyanairGuru : Fair enough, I apologize.
43 RyanairGuru : I thought that UA+CO still had the majority of Manhattan corporate business, even if DL are closing the gap? After all Premium Service doesn't fill i
44 N62NA : Where would you get such information about UA (CO)?
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