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Do You Think WN Has Buyers Remorse?  
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4947 posts, RR: 28
Posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 12397 times:

I have tried my best to follow the Air Tran takeover by WN. I also have noticed that there is some reductions going on in ATL. Do you think WN might have been better off without Air Tran? Or do you think it is a good thing for WN?


I Am A Different Animal!!
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5398 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 12391 times:

Quoting F9animal (Thread starter):

From my standpoint as an FL crewmember I sure as hell hope WN made the right choice. Like any aquisition or airline merger the first couple of years could be the stuff of comedic movies. But, I hope and feel when the fod is cleared from the runway we will land on our feet and be "In Like Flint!"



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 12259 times:

Nope. LGA, DCA, ATL, CUN, MEX, SJD, SJU, MBJ, etc... and the leg work on dozens of other potential "near-international" destinations. Reduced competition that was forcing down yields.

On another note thats probably of interest to a fan of F9, DEN-SJD will be starting soon on FL.



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1445 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 12130 times:

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 2):
Nope. LGA, DCA, ATL, CUN, MEX, SJD, SJU, MBJ, etc... and the leg work on dozens of other potential "near-international" destinations. Reduced competition that was forcing down yields.

I tend to agree with usflyguy - they surely have run into more complicated hiccups than they hoped, but they got some nice things out of the deal that would have been very expensive and/or complicated to get otherwise. Whatever they don't like or want they can divest as they see fit, and then continue to soldier on as legacy WN + the good parts of FL they want to keep. As has been mentioned before, what we've seen to date indicates WN slowly digesting and assimilating FL bit by bit and then eventually they will confront the rump issues of international and the incompatible systems. But they'll get there and be a stronger carrier for it.


User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1332 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 12083 times:

The problems with the merger seem to be mostly WN - from my perspective. Whether they bought FL or not they would have to go thru the same pain to fly internationally, do real code shares, etc. So they got the immediate incentive to tackle these issues they had been avoiding for 5-10 years, at least.

On the other hand they could have done all this themselves (eventually) - are they listening to any FL people behind the scenes?

They also got a lot of gates at ATL and a bunch of 737s. And one less competitor.


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1278 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 11985 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 3):
Quoting usflyguy (Reply 2):

I agree 100%.

Quoting ADent (Reply 4):
The problems with the merger seem to be mostly WN - from my perspective. Whether they bought FL or not they would have to go thru the same pain to fly internationally, do real code shares, etc. So they got the immediate incentive to tackle these issues they had been avoiding for 5-10 years, at least.

You are completely on par here. None of these problems are the acquisition, its just WN problems that would have come up anyway, they are just being emphasized and fixed because of the acquisition.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineB4REAL From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2611 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 11550 times:

One good thing here actually PRO-acquiring AirTran. Southwest only has 2 datacenters in Dallas, separated by not a far distance. They now have a datacenter in Atlanta, that's a big deal in regards to business technology resiliency; not directly air operations related. But, I am an IT pro - and for the size of their technology; that's really too close for my comfort!


B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlinewnflyguy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2011, 451 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 11503 times:

No I don't think WN has any remorse on buying FL.
The only real issue I think WN has had with FL merger so far is the IT issues with connection the networks with each other.
I think WN is getting everything it wanted from FL.
wnfg 



my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 635 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 11394 times:
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Quoting zippyjet (Reply 1):
From my standpoint as an FL crewmember I sure as hell hope WN made the right choice.

Howdy Zippyjet: Welcome to WN, if ever in DAL look me up. I work Eve. line maintenance.


User currently offlinediverdave From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 11083 times:

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 7):
No I don't think WN has any remorse on buying FL.
The only real issue I think WN has had with FL merger so far is the IT issues with connection the networks with each other.
I think WN is getting everything it wanted from FL.
wnfg

Well said.

Now as to whether AirTran has seller's remorse, that's an entirely different question.  Wow!

David


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4055 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11044 times:

I don't think that they see any remorse in buying their competition. Sure, they have to reduce redundancies and not duplicate what they are doing, it is not like buying ketchup, when making a purchase of this magnitude there is so much study and discussion that when it comes to fruition, there has been much scrutiny on the effects of the purchase that they have gone way beyond buyers remorse.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10895 times:

Instant international and remove a major east coast competitor, plus access to some major airports in the NE, I think they got exactly what they wanted, outside of that they were not interested in making major changes so their business model (ie no fortress hubs...ATL, no 717's and no very small cities with less than daily/critical mass flights)

In sort, no I would say they are quite happy!

-m

  


User currently offlineAlnicocunife From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10894 times:

No remorse and the Airtran baggage fees are helping eek out some profits during the integration process.

Gain: international destinations, Hawaii and a fresh perspective on airlines with Airtran employees/management?
Loss: having to pay for Delta's 717's, and no longer a being a LCC but just one of the "legacy" carriers.


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1446 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10397 times:

No...WN got rid of a competitor. ATL should certainly have remorse though.

User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4141 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9936 times:
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Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 7):
No I don't think WN has any remorse on buying FL.
The only real issue I think WN has had with FL merger so far is the IT issues with connection the networks with each other.
I think WN is getting everything it wanted from FL.

Perhaps more than they realized. FL's ability to do international runs is so useful. For instance, I was at SNA the first day of the new SNA-MEX run and saw the line out the terminal door. Additional runs to Mexico using FL might be interesting (from ABQ, ELP, AUS ?) .


User currently offlineCatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 2791 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9656 times:

Quoting ADent (Reply 4):
They also got a lot of gates at ATL and a bunch of 737s. And one less competitor.

Exactly. I believe WN was able to grow by something like 20% in one move. When you look at the relative growth of the rest of the industry vis-a-vis consolidation (UA becoming much bigger, DL, becoming much bigger, AA/US likely hooking up), for them to achieve such growth organically would have taken years.


User currently offlineRmTrice From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9402 times:

I don't believe WN has buyers remorse at all. The regret comes in when you begin to look at the technology issues that have hindered this aquisition from the beginning: unable to book international flights, unable to code-share, etc... NW/DL's merger (one I went through as an NW employee) was very smooth because the airlines already shared a somewhat close relationship (codesharing, alliance partners). They were able to consolidate their operations very quickly. WN/F9 is a much more complicated situation because WN did not make the technology investments other airlines made so long ago. They didn't really need to according to their business strategy. The best strategy is to take their time, do their homework, and bring it all together. It's a shame it's taking so long, but it will be a positive thing for WN in the long run.

User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3171 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9402 times:

I dont know about remorse, but it has become painfully obvious that WN cut off a bit more than they can chew with this merger.

All these years later, they still have not been integrated and customers are still confused.

I think in the end, they will be fine...but this may be one of those mergers that you look back on and ask why

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 2):
Nope. LGA, DCA, ATL, CUN, MEX, SJD, SJU, MBJ, etc... and the leg work on dozens of other potential "near-international" destinations. Reduced

But realistically, that is a handful of flights when you take out ATL. DCA and LGA were and are small operations for both airlines.

It all comes down to ATL. That is AirTrans greatest asset. When we look at ATL 10 years from now, we will know if this merger was worth it to WN.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9340 times:

Quoting F9animal (Thread starter):
Do you think WN might have been better off without Air Tran?

No.

Quoting F9animal (Thread starter):
Or do you think it is a good thing for WN?

It's a great thing...Atlanta was one of the last areas WN had available to expand domestically. They could have bought AirTran, shut it down for a total loss the next day, and it would still have been good for WN. I like AirTran though, so I'm glad they didn't do that.

Tom.


User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1531 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9313 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 17):
All these years later, they still have not been integrated and customers are still confused.

You make it sound like it's been a decade. We're talking about less than 2 years here...



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlinefrmrcapcadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1688 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8636 times:

I think WN is smart to take as much time to get the IT right. As has been pointed out their current one was out of date, but served well. Passengers will appreciate a seamless transition or at least seamless compared to a rush job with repeated failures. Adding ETOPS, code share, (dreaded fees for extras), travel to other countries, etc. is a IT big project. From limited understanding with professionals three or four years to do a good job is not all that bad.


Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 934 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8637 times:

Quoting F9animal (Thread starter):
I have tried my best to follow the Air Tran takeover by WN. I also have noticed that there is some reductions going on in ATL. Do you think WN might have been better off without Air Tran? Or do you think it is a good thing for WN?

The ATL reduction was planned from the beginning. SWA is dismanteling AirTran and using the equipment and people as they see fit. We all knew that the merged AirTran/SWA would have a significantly smaller presence at Atlanta. That being said, I SWA does not have buyers remose and certainly would not have better off had they chose to not purchase AirTran.



"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlineFLALEFTY From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 396 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7552 times:

From my my vantage point, WN is pretty much getting what they were after in this deal:

1) They picked up FL's sweetheart deal for 737NGs.
2) They finally got reasonable access to Atlanta - an important business destination.
3) As others have pointed out, they were able to strengthen their IT, thanks to FL.
4) FL provided WN a nifty little portfolio of medium-haul international routes.
5) FL's corporate culture was as efficiency-minded as WN's corporate culture, so the integration of union contracts was much less painful.
6) WN picked up hard-to-get slots at LGA & DCA.

However,

1) WN's attempt to "wall-off" the 717s at FL rates so they could replace 735s, was not successful.
2) The jury is still out if WN's de-hubbing ATL will be in their long-term best interest.

Like all mergers, there are issues to deal with, some of which WN did not accurately anticipate (such as the proposed, 717 integration). But overall, I think WN emerges from this merger a much stronger and more competitive airline.

[Edited 2012-12-05 10:07:18]

[Edited 2012-12-05 10:09:01]

User currently offlineluvfa From United States of America, joined May 2005, 439 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6935 times:

Quoting FLALEFTY (Reply 22):
) The jury is still out if WN's de-hubbing ATL will be in their long-term best interest.

I question the term de-hubbing ATL as a WN strategy! Airtran had ATL as basically its only hub, so all flying had to connect via ATL. WN, on the other hand, has MDW, BWI etc. in the east so making ATL a little smaller was inevitable!

That said, ATL will still be important in the future once this acquisition becomes finished, (2014 and beyond), some sign I see:

-The de-emphasis of PHL as an east coast focus city, we would still have BWI, ATL

-Closing of short haul Florida service i.e. FLL-MCO, most of this was connecting traffic north. I see ATL as a connector from FL-NEand Midwest to supplement Nstop service in FLL, RSW.

-The planned opening of ATL as a crew base for pilots/FAs by 1-1-15 at the latest, per contracts, (although Im betting it opens by 2nd qtr. 2014)

As far as buyers remorse goes, this is the equivalence of buyers remorse as buying a car and having second thoughts before you even drive it home! If we re talking about regrets, lets wait 5-10 years from now until we make that decisions!


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4481 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6679 times:

Quoting Alnicocunife (Reply 12):
Loss: having to pay for Delta's 717's, and no longer a being a LCC but just one of the "legacy" carriers.

Most numbers show the 717 transaction will be a wash. The cost more so comes down to the time spent taking care of it all.

Also LCC is subjective. WN still has the lowest CASM out of all the big guys. Keep in mind too, there are a lot fewer big guys than their use to be. NW, CO, HP, etc are all gone. Many envisioned that we would see 3 large major airlines plus WN in the US. We are just one more transaction away from that being reality (for the most part, yes I know all the other little guys are still there and B6).

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 17):
All these years later, they still have not been integrated and customers are still confused.
Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 19):
You make it sound like it's been a decade. We're talking about less than 2 years here...

This. However, I blame this on our society turning to a sense of instant gratification to be satisfied.



Any opinion/comment posted is that of my own and not that of Southwest Airlines Co.
25 Triple7LR : I think the big question that no one is asking is " Will the FL side of the merger still be profitable after they drop the bag fees?" I think there's
26 luvfa : I guess that was the main point of my previous post!
27 silentbob : FL generally had much lower fares than WN. If they can generate WN level revenue from ticket prices, they won't need to have the ancillary fees.
28 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Just look back at the pre-merger threads. Most of us thought/knew that FL's business plan was much different than WN's and ATL didn't quite fit into
29 airliner371 : WN can charge for bag fees when ever they want. They choose to charge at FL because FL has always charged and FL isn't known for free bags and they w
30 usairways787 : It'd be a little late to say "Hey, you know what, we really shouldn't have bought you" airTran brought more to the table than Southwest ever could hav
31 usflyguy : What department did you work in? Were you not offered something else?
32 Post contains images JayBird : No, Southwest doesn't have buyers remorse .. Pan Am - yes, after they purchased National USAir - yes, after they purchased PSA American - yes, after t
33 ouboy79 : What position did you hold? Only fair that you provide those details as well so it can properly considered. Nearly everyone has been offered a positi
34 srbmod : One thing to note is that when WN entered ATL, there really wasn't the "Southwest Effect" in terms of airfares that many markets that WN entered has.
35 delimit : Why would ATL care? The airport is still getting its money. I guess that Chick-Fil-A might miss the people changing planes. If you're talking about t
36 usflyguy : Previous integrations have been between 2 carriers that are basically the same but with a different name and different logo. With FL/WN, you have two
37 Cubsrule : How is it more different than UA and CO?
38 wjcandee : They did the deal to take out a lower-cost, lower-price competitor. Anything else they said is window-dressing. So it's a success.
39 usflyguy : To start, UA/CO both have premium cabins, WN/FL do not. UA/CO had similar route networks, WN/FL did not. Assigned seating vs no assigned seating. Bag
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