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Economy Seats Getting Worse?  
User currently offlinetioloko100 From Australia, joined Jul 2012, 119 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 14394 times:
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Talking about airline economics not much revenue is generated from the economy seats but nonetheless they still constitute of majority of airlines passengers but these days they seem not to be doing well or maybe the airlines not giving much attention to them.
We have seen a lot of innovations with the /First/ Business class seats but not much for the cattle class, last time something new happened to Economy class I think it was when Air NZ came up with new roomier economy seats and since then passengers have been seeing a lot of deterioration.

http://flyingactive.com/content/86-h...lass-seats-getting-even-worse.html

86 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineaajfksjubklyn From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 886 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 14041 times:

The seats are becoming paperthin, and somehow the airlines say they are the same comfort. This is true of those 737 seats AA is using in Buniess and Coach. Its horrible.

User currently offlinecschleic From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1228 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 14005 times:

The article says Southwest was shrinking seat pitch as part of a plan to add premium seating. That's not true, is it? I thought it was just to add seats period.

User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7073 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 13663 times:

Quoting tioloko100 (Thread starter):
last time something new happened to Economy class I think it was when Air NZ came up with new roomier economy seats and since then passengers have been seeing a lot of deterioration.

I wouldn't call it roomier. Pitch on an NZ 77W has shrunk compared to a 744, and the airline is cramming 3-4-3 config onto the 77W vs 3-3-3 on the 772 (Which will be refitted to 3-4-3). This 'roomier' seating is the skycouch thing which is ok but has not had as gleeming reiews as first thought. PE on the New NZ product was so cramped they had to remove rows of seats from the 77W in order to increase leg room. This was within a couple of months of implementation as well so it wasn;t a good look. Seems like they are cramming seats on a 77W to get the numbers as close to a 744 as possible instead of opting for the 748I
So in NZ's case yes many feel eco class has gone down hill big time in terms of seat pitch and width. I asume many otehr airlines are the same


User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 13561 times:

'Tis the Economy passenger's lot in life, it seems. Seats just keep getting thinner & harder and legroom keeps vanishing, whilst marketers trumpet "improvements". Sickening.


Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 13530 times:

Well at least many carriers are adding premium economy options so you can get a decent seat without springing for business class.

User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1493 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 13320 times:

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 4):
'Tis the Economy passenger's lot in life, it seems. Seats just keep getting thinner & harder and legroom keeps vanishing, whilst marketers trumpet "improvements"

I always love it when the pilot invites those of us in steerage to "sit back and relax." I think they should say "sit back and endure the flight the best you can"!


User currently offline4engines4lnghll From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12834 times:

The new AA 737 seats are far more comfortable than any other US carrier.

Quoting aajfksjubklyn (Reply 1):



4engines4lnghll
User currently offlineLLA001 From Turkey, joined May 2005, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12794 times:

I am 6'2" and flying economy in any airline longer than 4 hours is not fun for me. I am sure there are guys who are much taller than I am here and for them I feel really sorry.

Economy seats in the 70s and 80s would seem like premium for me as they would leave some room for a bit of knee space.


User currently offlinevaus77w From Australia, joined Aug 2011, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12739 times:

Quoting tioloko100 (Thread starter):

Talking about airline economics not much revenue is generated from the economy seats but nonetheless they still constitute of majority of airlines passengers but these days they seem not to be doing well or maybe the airlines not giving much attention to them.
We have seen a lot of innovations with the /First/ Business class seats but not much for the cattle class,

Economy seats are getting smaller?? Shock horror!

Seriously though, airfares are just so cheap nowadays that anyone can afford to fly. If you want more comfort, you gotta pay for it. Quit whining.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1806 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 11408 times:

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 9):
Seriously though, airfares are just so cheap nowadays that anyone can afford to fly. If you want more comfort, you gotta pay for it. Quit whining.

I agree, we all have a choice, if we want comfort we have to pay for it. I endure economy because I mostly fly 4 hour or shorter flights now. I would never endure that for 13 hours however, its worth paying more if I had to sit for that long.

Long gone are the days when economy was comfortable and fuel price was no worry at all.


User currently offlinely7e7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2232 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 11364 times:

6' 5'' here.
I stopped flying long haul in economy as it became unbearable in virtually all airlines. When I can't afford a business class ticket or the company would not pay for it I won't travel long haul. I adjusted my job accordingly and opted for more vacations closer to home. It also decreases my carbon footprint.

Given , some life circumstances may require one to travel long haul without the means to purchase an expensive business class ticket. But these circumstances are extremely rare and enduring a return flight in long haul economy once in a few of years is not a pleasant but doable experience.



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1806 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 11322 times:

I wonder what we will have to pay for the cramped economy when fuel prices have doubled again. I guess there will be a limit where air travel goes down, price vs comfort. Flying was not as cheap 20 years ago however and that kept many on the ground.

User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3475 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 11213 times:

Fortunately I no longer fly economy long haul, however my experiences were that the claims of the individual airlines were no guarantee of my comfort.
They may claim to have more leg room, seat width etc due to innovative seat designs, but the best judgement is whether my knees touch the seat in front. I'm only 5'8" so I shudder to think if the discomfort some must endure.
A good example of this was flights a few years back on BA and VS, both claimed the same seat pitch, yet my knees brushed the seat pocket in front of me on VS but were well clear on BA.
Few of us travel with a tape measure, so how accurate are the quoted pitches ? Reducing seat thickness has already been mentioned, do airlines also make adjustments to the angle of the seat base to influence where our knees end up ?

Seat width is another issue, airlines claim that they can acheive 10 abreast on 777's without us noticing, is this really true ? After all I can notice this extra inch or so a 320 gives over a 737 at arm rest height, I can also notice that the difference in fuselage curvature makes the outboard seat on a 320 less comfortable for a tall person, than the equivalant seat on a 737.

My conclusion to the question would be that on shorthaul as the 320 has increased its market share over the past decade or so its extra width has increased economy comfort.

Meanwhile on long haul, carriers heading for 10 abreast on 777's have deccreased overall comfort.


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2004 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 11040 times:

It's a drip drip process, having just travelled on MH's new A380s, they may be shiny and new, and have wider seats that the previous 744s, but legroom isn't as good as before (the seats are also not tall enough)


it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1013 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 11007 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 13):
Seat width is another issue, airlines claim that they can acheive 10 abreast on 777's without us noticing, is this really true ?

It's not, at least not for me. A couple of years ago, I flew on an Emirates 777 which had 10-abreast seating and connected to a Thai 777 which had 9-abreast seating. The difference was very noticeable indeed! Even more so on the return.

As a result, I now avoid Emirates flights operated with the 777.



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlinehuxrules From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10986 times:

I cant stand the seats on A320s. As a tall guy my knees are impacted directly in the seat in front of me. Most of you don't know it but there are metal wires in the magazine pocket of most A320 seats. These line up directly with your knees and actually leave an indentation in my case. Economy equals pain for me. Unfortunately it is sometimes impossible to get the economy plus seats- I don't know why you cant buy these seats at the time of purchase (at least on us brands). My tallness has lead to great things in my life but when I'm in economy i'm essentially handicapped.

User currently offlinetomkell92 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2012, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9954 times:

I hate it how most UK airlines offer low cost flights with really bad configurations. Most airlines only offer between 28" and 30" of legroom, which isn't very comfortable. Then you have BA who offer around 32" legroom, which is perfect, but when you look at the price for the flight, you die a little inside.

I can live with 30" legroom, just about, but anything less is a nightmare.



Tom Kellock
User currently offlineplaneguy727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1213 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9914 times:

Quoting huxrules (Reply 16):
Unfortunately it is sometimes impossible to get the economy plus seats- I don't know why you cant buy these seats at the time of purchase (at least on us brands).

UA allows this at time of booking. So does US.

Part of the problem with economy is that the public has come to see traveling on a "cheap" fair as some sort of god given right. As long as the general public insists on making decisions only on airfare the situation won't change.



I want to live in an old and converted 727...
User currently offlineAlnicocunife From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9800 times:

Louis CK: “Everything’s amazing and nobody’s happy!" Very funny about how difficult travel is today and nobody is happy.

Yes, coach flying over 4-5 hours is no piece of cake compared to a wooden ship or a steam train hauling hundreds of people over a week or month to get anywhere.

Profit is the reason. It always has been the reason! You get what you pay for, it always has been that way. I believe I am just like everyone reading this, I prefer to fly on any airlines First Class seat. I just cannot afford to always pay for it.


User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9670 times:

Filling those cramped, non revenue-producing economy seats is what gives business travelers the frequency of service they desire. You can't have one without the other! So airlines might as get serious about trying to improve the poor steerage passengers' existence in the back.


Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlinedowntown273 From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9533 times:

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 5):
Well at least many carriers are adding premium economy options so you can get a decent seat without springing for business class.

For many airlines "Premium Economy" is Economy + free extras (extra baggage, food, priority check-in and boarding, advance seat reservation, more flexible tickets, etc.). Basically, it doesn't really cost the airline that much money and can charge twice as much compared to just Economy.

Earlier this week I was on CPH-OSL on a SK's MD81. Rows 1-5 were Business Class (same seats, empty middle seat), rows 6-21 were Economy Extra (Premium), the rest (rows 22-33) were Economy. They only have one type of seats onboard so they change the Business/Premium/Economy "areas" pre-flight.


User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1512 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9508 times:

Best economy flight I ever had was a on a new 777-300er Air Canada flight.Huge wide seats,decent legroon (5'11") a large digital screen and great service. Better than many 2nd grade business flights frankly.

It is for me what makes the 777 so special.Cannot imagine what it's like with 10 across .The 787 was designed to be 8 and comfortable - but sales took off ( and the Mk1 350 died) when they "introduced" the 9 option.Same for the 350 I guess - fine at nine but a pig pen at 10.


User currently offlineEaglePower83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 200 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9305 times:

Quoting 4engines4lnghll (Reply 7):

The new AA 737 seats are far more comfortable than any other US carrier.

Agreed.
Was on 2 AA 738s a few months ago and my friends and I were pleasantly surprised how comfortable the articulating recline seats were.
I know everyone's different, but they worked well for us on our 2.5hr flights.


User currently offlinedfambro From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8920 times:

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 9):
Seriously though, airfares are just so cheap nowadays that anyone can afford to fly. If you want more comfort, you gotta pay for it. Quit whining.

In many cases the only option is to pay much more - often several times more - to get much more room in a premium cabin. So there isn't an option to pay just somewhat more to get a little bit more room.

An example from my recent past - family of 4 flying US east coast to Hawaii on UA on our preferred dates, $2600 in econ, $20,000 is business. The route euqipment is a 'high density' pmCO 764 with no E+.

Saying "stop whining" would be legitimate if there was an E+ type option at, say, $3500-$4000 on that itinerary. When the only alternative costs nearly 8 times as much, then it's really not an alternative.


25 hohd : Fuel prices are lower or stable for the last 4 years. It will NEVER come down, if it does, it will be a bonus. Compared to inflation, fuel prices are
26 danielkandi : LH slimseats are good tbh, very surprising. But seatcushion is soo tough nowadays... really sucks!
27 jcavinato : An interesting thing I see in some of the promotional literature that the airplane makers use: A photo of a women traveling with two little kids on ea
28 ly7e7 : Ditto. and this is before the Photoshop. Whatever works to create longer legs and necks and bigger eyes and breasts works here too.
29 babybus : It's not always about comfort, it's about safety too. Too many seats in a cramped economy cabin and you have problems trying to exit the plane in an
30 RyanairGuru : Good point. In July I flew BA GLA-LGW-JER, and happened to be on the same plane in and out of LGW. On the GLA-LGW leg I was in row 5 and on LGW-JER I
31 huxrules : United allows you to buy econ plus seats after booking. Not as a separate class. However - as if they ready my post and got on it - I just received a
32 spacecadet : I don't mind paying a reasonable amount more for comfort, and I am glad there are some airlines out there now that are willing to take my money. For a
33 frmrcapcadet : Even the old standard of 35 inches or so of pitch is great, and six seats abreast.
34 liftsifter : Fares are CHEAPER now? I remember having a return fare ORD-AMM for $800 in 2006 now I'm lucky to get the fare for $1400. With airlines charging a "fu
35 AADC10 : Why not make economy seats worse? Yes, they are getting worse and market forces are driving everything that way. Most passengers are looking for the l
36 zkncj : In some markets fares have gone down, example in 1999 Auckland to Sydney would cost between $600-800 an entry level one way ticket. Now its common to
37 planeguy727 : One implication of your comment is that the cost to the airline of moving one person on that route has not changed in 6 years. Your follow on about f
38 1337Delta764 : How so? DL has these same seats (Weber 5751) on several of their aircraft.
39 IAH59 : United seats are uncomfortable.
40 tugger : Actually you are very wrong here, economy seats are the profit driver and generator for airlines. The premium seats are a big expense but are an impo
41 seahawks7757 : The Recaro seats on Alaska's 900er's are fantastic. My 3 hour flight felt so easy I wasn't ready for it to be over. Also they gave everyone another in
42 coolfish1103 : I think the new JL seats are actually better... What's worse is trying to get miles on discount fares, nearly none.
43 Post contains images TGV : Same here : when the company where I worked changed its policy for Eco flight in all cases, without any consideration to the flight durations, I left
44 Post contains images seabosdca : This may be true for low-cost carriers or carriers primarily serving vacation markets. But for the big business-oriented long-haul carriers of the wo
45 tugger : Sorry but it doesn't. You are simply wrong. You are really only looking at the prices of the seats and not looking at everything else that goes along
46 seabosdca : Only true on U.S. carriers. Pretty much no one in the gigantic premium sections of the carriers I mentioned isn't paying. That replacement of 4-6 eco
47 tugger : You are right the international market and drivers are substantially different than the intra-USA market. They are almost two different entities enti
48 Stitch : When the Global Financial Crisis hit and Business Class travel started to contract, Qantas for a time considered re-configuring their A380s because th
49 qf002 : QF is reconfiguring their A380s with fewer J seats and more W/Y seats. They also recently finished reconfiguring their 744ER fleet to get rid of F an
50 beachbum1970 : Do you remember which aircraft you flew? The Y seats on many s-CO 737s are known for being uncomfortable. Those seats were made by Koito, which is no
51 planeguy727 : Maybe it's just me, but I don't think the decline in F travel is a result of the economy. As airlines upped the game in J passengers discovered it was
52 babybus : That's not true either. Economy is the back-bone of any airline. You'll always get Y class passengers but many flights go out with no J or F class pa
53 traindoc : Just flew FRA-IAH on the LH 380. This plane has the new thin seats. Fortunately, my wife and I had an empty seat between us on the 3 seat side. As I a
54 cschleic : Exactly. I'd happily pay 10% or 20% more for 10% - 20% more legroom, with that space offered on some U.S. carriers, and more so with DL now. But too
55 pvjin : As long as making seats and legroom smaller also can be seen in ticket prices I have nothing against it. I already traveled over 12 hours (with fuel s
56 vasu : I'm the same - Though I know everyone is different, I much prefer the quantity of flights over the quality of the seats/service!
57 MAN2SIN2BKK : I had the misfortune to fly in economy for the first time in 2 years in a crowded LH A321 from LHR to FRA last month; the experience even for a short
58 EricAY05 : I am 6 foot tall, don't have any excess weight and I only have two problems with flying longhaul: people who are so large that they occupy "my" space
59 Post contains images CPHFF : Compare Y fares today vs. 20 years ago. Compare fuel prices today vs. 20 years ago. Somethings got to give........
60 EricAY05 : That is true, but very often the extra comfort is not in proportion with the extra price. Let's say that you can quite easily book a return ticket fr
61 Triple7X : I totally agree with you, the truth is airlines need to make profit in order to survive in the Aviation Industry.....
62 danielkandi : Eric, not only are they the same width, but they are rockhard to sit on. Honestly, i wish eco comfort at least had a softer seatcushion, otherwise cal
63 Post contains links spacecadet : I think these Economy Plus type seats (whatever the airline actually calls them) are still a fairly new market that airlines are still trying to figu
64 Post contains links usxguy : Not sure if anyone saw this thread on Crankyflier.com: http://crankyflier.com/2012/12/04/me...e-need-for-wider-seats-guest-post/ I thought this made f
65 Post contains images Stitch : In such a situation I'd likely just buy two adjoining Economy Class seats for $2800 and enjoy having 34-36" of seat width (by raising the adjacent ar
66 Post contains images spacecadet : That probably *would* be a better deal. The downside is having to convince the person two seats over from you that that's actually your seat that the
67 Post contains images lightsaber : I find it amusing people will complain but not pay for more room. AA tried MRTC and failed. People voted with their wallet. My thoughts. There are ple
68 Post contains images Stitch : I'd just put my carryon under my seat for take-off, then drop it on the adjacent seat during climb-out (after the "10K Ding"). If the adjacent passen
69 ElPistolero : Arguments like these always strike me as superfluous. Time does not stand still. The aviation market is significantly larger than it was 20 years ago
70 YTZ : This. I used to be excited at the thought of AC fielding the Dreamliner. Now that I know AC is going to 9 abreast on the 787, the excitement has gone
71 longhauler : 9 abreast on the B787 doesn't scare me as much as 10 abreast on the B777! I too was hoping for 8 abreast on the B787, but they haven't officially ann
72 ElPistolero : 'Cheaper' is a function of competition, not seat design. AF uses the same 777s with the same Y products to fly to the US and Canada. The prices at wh
73 MeanGreen : Ill say this: the Alaska coach seat was more comfortable to me than the US Airways A321 first class seat I recently occupied! The recline was horrible
74 longhauler : Exactly! If prices were fixed and airlines competed with service, then a 10 abreast configuration would not exist. But if prices were not fixed, then
75 YTZ : @longhauler The problem though (as others have mentioned) is that airlines are only interested in catering to business pax and highly price conscious
76 longhauler : Normally I would say that the Customer dictates what the airline offers, (eventually), but in this case I think you are correct. With no competition
77 Post contains links YTZ : @longhauler As cited in the other thread. Love what AA is doing with the new 321 TCONs: http://aa.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=3560 Half of a
78 longhauler : Yes, but you will note that this configuration is in response to competition. AA already had their Flagship B767-200s which will be replaced with the
79 seabosdca : That is because there are relatively few such customers, at least in North American markets. Premium economy sections, where they exist, almost alway
80 YTZ : I get what you're saying. Just wish the stand-off would end! And if AC will go through a narrowbody fleet renewal at the end of the decade, might be
81 Viscount724 : Also F/J/Y 747s at CP. When they introduced J (using the original F seats but 50 of them instead of 28), they moved F class to the upper deck (12 she
82 spacecadet : Unless I'm missing *your* point, I think you missed *his*, which is exactly the same point you're making. (His point was specifically that we no long
83 longhauler : They refuse to play in that race, because they can get away with it. They have a market that is willing to pay a premium for a better Economy product
84 ElPistolero : Just poor expression on my part. More or less aimed at debunking this trend of comparing airfares from 2012 to 1992 and 1972. The world's changed too
85 longhauler : Out of interest I checked tomorrow's flights in Economy. From LAX to NRT, NH is the same price as UA or US. From ORD, NH is the same price as UA, and
86 Post contains links Viscount724 : TWA's "Comfort Class" lasted about as long as AA's equivalent "More Room in Coach". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XuksUYX7Jg
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