enginebird From United States of America, joined May 2007, 340 posts, RR: 0 Posted (1 year 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10766 times:
The Aviation Herald, a site many of us love and frequently link to on airliners.net, is under legal threat from an unnamed airline, most likely an Ireland-based low cost carrier: The Aviation Herald
The threat seems to be related to the recent refusal of the Aviation Herald to remove a report of a B-738 descending below minimum height, citing a report by the official authorities of the country in question: discussion of the incident on airliners.net
phishphan70 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 260 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10665 times:
I guess we should all watch the comments on this thread as well if a certain un-named airline is going off on a legal binge. I, and I assume most of those that will read this, whole-heartedly support the objective, accurate, and thorough job done by the Av Herald.
Good luck squashing this baseless legal action.
captainmeeerkat From Russia, joined Aug 2010, 370 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10638 times:
As a contributor to the other site also, please can I also ask that the airline not be named here.
The AvHerald, along with airliners.net, are my two most visited websites.
I have been a staunch defender of theis airline's business model, their success and safety record, as well as giving them the benefit of the doubt when ill-informed moaners complain about their practices. I have defended them on numerous aviation sites in relation to some incidents when others were too quick to judge.
However, if they are trying to stifle free speech and stop the ordinary public from commenting about them, I will very quickly become an enemy of this company.
Safety culture only works in an arena of openness and mutual communication. We can't let idiot posters destroy this.
Plainplane From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 812 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10432 times:
Regardless of all the stuff always going on with them I always held a neutral opinion in the whole for/against the "you know what airline" arguments. Now this, officially makes me hates the "you know what" airline.
something From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 20 Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10260 times:
If even the slightest suspicion arises that a low cost carrier saves on maintenance/safety, their business could be ruined over night. Both, Ryanair and EasyJet have become established enough that a crash would ruin neither company but the backlash this would have on their businesses would be much greater than what LH or BA would experience in the exact same situation.
It is all too understandable that Ryanair therefore, has a greater than average interest in having any negative press concerning their safety removed.
The question is now how legitimate Ryanair's request to have the particular news item on the avherald.com removed. If the account given on the website is factually inaccurate or even erroneous, Ryanair may prosecute the website for libel. If, however, the BFU report and the avherald's representation of said is correct, Ryanair has no legal recourse against the website.
BFU reports in Germany are public domain and the BFU itself is an objective, state-owned investigation bureau. It seems unlikely that their report is partial or even inaccurate. The avherald may use information provided by the BFU, but has to distinguish between what the BFU states, and what their own interpretation of this data is.
It would be the discretion of a judge whether the avherald.com gave a factual account based on the BFU findings, or if its account contained elements of personal interpretation (any assessment, appraisal, opinions etc.) that could skew public perception of the incident at hand.
In either way, Ryanair is doing something unbelievably risky here. ''The cover up is always worse than the crime''. It almost doesn't matter what the actual situation was. If some tabloid like the German ''Bild'' is printing a headline that ''Ryanair close to crash - And now they're hiding it'', their reputation is ruined. Why can't they just put a press release on their website stating what exactly happened (and why) and that every report to the contrary are false?
Even if their strategy proves successful, the stakes for what they can possibly gain here seem disproportionally high. The average flyer doesn't care much about a ''near miss'', especially not in the long run. A company that goes to great lengths to make things disappear though, is an impression that is bound to last.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 64 Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9753 times:
Quoting enginebird (Thread starter): The threat seems to be related to the recent refusal of the Aviation Herald to remove a report of a B-738 descending below minimum height
When I read the excerpt from the legal demand, it said it was comments to the report, not the report itself that was questionable. If the comments were libelous, then of course they should be removed. If not, then the AvHerald has every right to let the comments stand.
mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6409 posts, RR: 74 Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9335 times:
Quoting phishphan70 (Reply 1): I, and I assume most of those that will read this, whole-heartedly support the objective, accurate, and thorough job done by the Av Herald.
Good luck squashing this baseless legal action.
Accurate is subjective. The attitude of the primary author there, is in some instances, despicably 'against criticism', even when providing corrections to errors (based on AvHerald's policy of only using 'official data', which in some countries, official data is often erroneous and regulatory approved 3rd party data is more accurate... unfortunately, AvHerald would buy none of that... well, not after deletion of a lot of comments). However, we understand that nothing is perfect. I do not find it the most accurate, but I find it as the one-stop place to look for accident/incident information.
Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 2): I have been a staunch defender of theis airline's business model, their success and safety record, as well as giving them the benefit of the doubt when ill-informed moaners complain about their practices. I have defended them on numerous aviation sites in relation to some incidents when others were too quick to judge.
Ryanair does have it's army of haters... at least we can look beyond the hate and see the reality.
Quoting something (Reply 6): The question is now how legitimate Ryanair's request to have the particular news item on the avherald.com removed.
Errr... it is the comments by the users who prompted Ryanair to threaten legal action against AvHerald unless those comments are removed... they are not requesting the news article to be removed.
I personally support Ryanair's request to ask for AvHerald to remove those 'unwarranted comments', sites like AvHerald, and other aviation sites, do not need to foster those 'unwarranted comments', they belong in the tabloids or A.net's rival I nicknamed "aviation fight club" (where the forum is just... supposedly filled with professionals but the stuff written there are just VICIOUS and full of hate)... Ryanair might actually be doing AvHerald a favour... HOWEVER, if Ryanair then continues to ask for the incident article to be removed, or begin to regularly harass AvHerald to ask for objective items to be removed, then, I guess we'd all join the army of O'Leary haters... Best of luck to Simon!
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12166 posts, RR: 35 Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9226 times:
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 9): I personally support Ryanair's request to ask for AvHerald to remove those 'unwarranted comments', sites like AvHerald, and other aviation sites, do not need to foster those 'unwarranted comments', they belong in the tabloids or A.net's rival I nicknamed "aviation fight club" (where the forum is just... supposedly filled with professionals but the stuff written there are just VICIOUS and full of hate)... Ryanair might actually be doing AvHerald a favour...
I agree; the problem with the AH is that although it's an excellent resource, there's no registration necessary and anyone can use any name to post anything. Hopefully they'll change that now and in that sense, FR is certainly doing AH a favour. It's a very useful sight and I'd hate to see it go.
enginebird From United States of America, joined May 2007, 340 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9079 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
When I read the excerpt from the legal demand, it said it was comments to the report, not the report itself that was questionable.
The Aviation Herald is probably unable to patrol all comments to each of its articles. Just as we have seen many less-than-objective comments on certain airlines, aircraft manufactureres etc. on airliners.net...
The legal action threatened seems to be at least partly motivated by the airline's unsuccessful demand to have the following report removed, although it is based on the official report of the state-owned authorities: report about a plane descending below minimum height
ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12675 posts, RR: 13 Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8242 times:
As as Paralegal/Legal Assistant for over 30 years, I am aware of corporate confidentiality and have had to sign numerous agreements to hold confidential internal documents and their contents of a client corporation and of the attorney-client privilege as well as information as to my employing firm under the pain of civil and criminal liability, loss of employment and ruin of my reputation even if a 'whistle blower'. Whoever released this internal information of Ryanair probably violated their work contract and any confidentiality agreements they have with them and will be fired and face penalties.
The second issue here is libel and slander vs. the news media. I am not sure which country AvHerald is based under, indeed if incorporated in the UK or most EU countries, unlike the USA where there is strong press protections from libel and slander, it may be possible for Ryanair to sue AvHerald for libel/slander with the publication of such internal materials.
Most likely AvHerald will have to go to a subscription model to pay for moderation to keep out materials that may get it into legal trouble. Sadly too, it will damage it's ability to offer open and honest disclosures of potentially dangerous incidents involving the airline industry.
SepulTALLICA From Zimbabwe, joined Sep 2009, 200 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6655 times:
Well judging by Update 3 on the AV Herald, O'Leary and his ambulance-chaser goons have given Simon until 17h30 UTC to come grovelling and apologizing. For what its worth, don't let them get to you Simon!
But seriously, why is O'Leary all butthurt now? He's renowned for his patronizing attitude towards Ryanair passengers and now that others take cheap shots at him, he gets all pissed?
Oh and some of those zingers against Ryanair were actually rather lulzy.
spoon84 From Switzerland, joined Sep 2009, 4 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6374 times:
Everyone knows which airline we are talking about, I don't understand why we should not talk about them, anyway i'm not going to write it here.
I support 100% Avherald, it's not really possible that a company like this, is going to check what people (correct or not) is writting about them, so are they checking all the forum in the world???
I think that they got a lot of good marketing because people is talking with them, but act like that to a website that was always fair on analyze the incidents that involved them, I think it's not very fair, as we say, they should close an eye.
I remember another report about them about the short of fuel in Spain some months ago and as far as I remember, Simon explained so well, that after a while everyone started to comment in a constructive way and not only negative comments, they should remember this wonderful work done by Avherald.
AR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5495 posts, RR: 26 Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6098 times:
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 15): I am not sure which country AvHerald is based under, indeed if incorporated in the UK or most EU countries, unlike the USA where there is strong press protections from libel and slander,
Because, as was mentioned way up thread, O'Leary knows (like all LCC's) that he's more exposed to even the hint of safety shenanigans than almost any other Western airline on earth. Factually inaccurate statements re: Ryanair safety will go straight to his bottom line.
Quoting spoon84 (Reply 19): it's not really possible that a company like this, is going to check what people (correct or not) is writting about them, so are they checking all the forum in the world???
Most large public-facing companies use automated systems to troll the web for any mention of their name (usually along with other keywords). "They" aren't checking all the forums in the world, but they're using technology to crawl pretty much the entire internet and then "they" look at the highlights.
KL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5065 posts, RR: 13 Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5992 times:
Quoting capri (Reply 5): As far I am concerned, I boycotted that airline since 2007. the worst people to deal with on customer level issues, they overcharge for anything and everything.
So what? let them overcharge, as long as the total fare is still lower then anyone else I fly with them. And the only customer service you need and can expect for 5 euro tickets is a friendly crew and extensive bob menu on board.
Quoting xdlx (Reply 16): Ryanair is doing it to themselves..... the public light is on them....!
Public? Normal pax are not reading the AH website..
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 21): Because, as was mentioned way up thread, O'Leary knows (like all LCC's) that he's more exposed to even the hint of safety shenanigans than almost any other Western airline on earth.
It is therefor actually one of the safest airlines in the world.
KL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5065 posts, RR: 13 Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5916 times:
Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 23): No but 100,000s visit the site every month and tell family, friends, colleagues etc etc- it spreads. Especially gossip like this.
FR relies on publicity for cheap marketing. Flashy and brash statements capture the imagination and it's talked about. In this instance, the talk will be quite negative.
True, I visit the site a lot, and the FR bashing is unbelievable there. It is a website about safety, not customer service, but all bashers there claim to know all kind of safety faults at FR. Which of course are total nonsense.
If it was my company I would do the same to and probably I would even sue those people telling lies and damaging the company.
Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
25 eicvd: Well I have never had a bad flight with them, I guess many millions of people have had the same treatment as me. Could be a reason why they have cust
26 PHX787: Well I guess if they give good customer service for the product they give, I guess that explains it.
27 BrouAviation: Something called freedom of speech? Well, of course you should know, because as a passenger who flies them regularly and seems to defend them at all
28 mandala499: Oh, update 3 is nice... shows that AvHerald gets a taste of it's own medicine... So, I get email, discuss it in public, and he throws a fit (it wasn't