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Westjet Evaluating Wide Body Order  
User currently offlineAF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 240 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 16595 times:

According to Bloomberg:

Quote:
WestJet Airlines Ltd. (WJA) is evaluating adding long-haul international routes and has begun talks with Boeing Co. (BA) and rival Airbus SAS about wide-body jets that could fly farther than its single-aisle fleet.

Discussions are preliminary and focused on availability, capability and pricing, WestJet Chief Executive Officer Gregg Saretsky said at an investor presentation today. The airline has no definitive plans to purchase wide-body aircraft, and any decisions will probably be delayed until it’s satisfied with new Encore regional unit.

“There’s an opportunity for us to start exploring this notion of a possible wide-body long-haul international operations,” Saretsky said. The airline is just starting to review “what that might look like,” he said, and has no immediate plans to order aircraft

Buying bigger planes and adding longer routes would give WestJet more ammunition as it seeks to win market share from larger competitor Air Canada. (AC/A) The discounter resumed flights to New York’s LaGuardia airport in June and plans to open its new regional unit by 2013 to serve locations now only reached by Canada’s largest airline.

More information on the following link: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...ng-airbus-on-wide-body-planes.html

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBlueBus From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 16596 times:

Southwest and WestJet changing so much gives opportunity for other airlines to replace their old models, imho

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6942 posts, RR: 18
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 16367 times:

WN will probably remain domestic for the near future, I see no widebody orders for them at all for a long time....

For WestJet this is a bit surprising.

If this was 1995 and we were talking about this, user WestJet747 would be all excited right now  


That aside, these guys are probably looking at the 788 or A359. I honestly do not see them pulling a Skymark and buying A380s/748i's.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinelostsound From Canada, joined May 2012, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 16154 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
That aside, these guys are probably looking at the 788 or A359.

I'd say the A330 is up for discussion too.  

My guess is the 787 will be the victor because of their relationship with Boeing, especially just after receiving their 100th 737NG aircraft. However I'd love to see them order the A350 to give the Canadian market more aircraft diversity seeing Air Canada has already ordered 787s. And so I could get better chance to fly on the A350 and 787. :P

[Edited 2012-12-06 20:12:43]


"Our hands are full, our lives are not"
User currently onlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 913 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 16124 times:

If WestJet or WN is looking into wide body aircraft which I found doubtful I think they would dabble with a 767 first if anything...


PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineCPA62 From Canada, joined Jan 2012, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 15969 times:

It would be great to see a 2nd sched international carrier, particulalry one based in the west. Air Canada
has done little to develop routes from Western Canada (in my opinion). Hope Westjet can fill the need particulalry from
Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver.
I wonder if WEstjet is talking with Branson on a low cost carrier, since Air Canada nixed any possibility of a joint venture?


User currently offlinecyeg66 From Canada, joined Feb 2011, 190 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15856 times:

Well, I for one, am shocked by this news....


On second thought, perhaps not. To dredge the same old discussion as in the past, there's a reason YYC is expanding to the extent that it is. First Encore, then will come Envoy (or whatever new "international name they will affix to their long haul flying). It's been a long time coming... Their home base makes a pretty good launch pad for long haul, methinks. It'll never get as big as YYZ, YUL, or YVR's international ops, but it should be good to double current international pax numbers within 10 year's time. My guesstimations only... Looking forward to the anti-Wetjet-small-fry-forever comments that are no doubt gonna surface in this thread.



slow to 160, contact tower, slow to 160, contact tower, slow to....ZZZZZZZ......
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18684 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15837 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 4):

If WestJet or WN is looking into wide body aircraft which I found doubtful I think they would dabble with a 767 first if anything...

I doubt it very much. I'd say that the options would be 787, A330, or A350.

The 787 would be the ideal aircraft. Small size, good flexibility, low operating costs. But it won't be available until almost 2020 at this point with its backlog. The A350 has the operating costs but is larger probably than ideal. It can probably be had within three years. The A330 can be had within one to two years, I'd wager, but has the highest operating costs. That said, the current A330 is still a modern, efficient aircraft and it's going to be less expensive to order than the new planes.


User currently onlinetimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15792 times:

The A330 series seems to be the go-to airframe for carriers needing wb wings sooner than later. Too bad the 767 just doesn't seem to be competitive for need it ASAP widebodies.

User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4759 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15712 times:

Quoting AF185 (Thread starter):
Discussions are preliminary and focused on availability, capability and pricing, WestJet Chief Executive Officer Gregg Saretsky said at an investor presentation today.

Interesting that it is Gregg Saretsky that is considering this. As most know, he was in upper management at Canadian Airlines ... and since his arrival at Westjet, they are looking more and more like Canadian! I hope he does better than the first iteration.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineJU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15613 times:

So what routes would they consider launching? Maybe London in Europe?

User currently offlinethreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2127 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 15447 times:

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 5):
Air Canada has done little to develop routes from Western Canada (in my opinion).

Only because the market from western Canada doesn't really warrant such development. What enhanced service could you suggest (that will make money)?

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 6):
Looking forward to the anti-Wetjet-small-fry-forever comments that are no doubt gonna surface in this thread.

What will surface is what's on everybody's mind: WestJet has radically diverged from their original and tested business model. Change is good Donkey, but I wonder how WS can keep cost structure down with the introduction of much new infrastructure overseas, a tripling of aircraft types, etc.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 10):
So what routes would they consider launching? Maybe London in Europe?

No doubt the leisure routes with high load factors and price conscious travelers (LGW, HKG, maybe something in mainland China, but more likely more western Europe).



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineJU068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 15420 times:

Quoting threepoint (Reply 11):
No doubt the leisure routes with high load factors and price conscious travelers (LGW, HKG, maybe something in mainland China, but more likely more western Europe).

Thanks. I hope we see them launch flights to Belgrade!


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5318 posts, RR: 30
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14895 times:

I imagine, if it actually does ever happen, they'll test the long haul waters much like they're trying out the 757...they'll try some wet leases to check things out before committing to buying a fleet.


What the...?
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12416 posts, RR: 100
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14795 times:
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This sounds wise. See what the economics are and think about it. Let Boeing and Airbus know you are interested, but wait to see what the best option is. Its a shame the MAX won't have a little more range, or Westjet could skip the widebodies all together.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):
WN will probably remain domestic for the near future, I see no widebody orders for them at all for a long time....

WN will go international. Just with 737s.  
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 4):
I think they would dabble with a 767 first if anything...

Why?!? 767s are being replaced by A330s and 788s. Since Westjet isn't planning to rush into widebodies, they have time to learn about and decide on the A330, A359, and 789. I doubt they would look and larger. After returning 736s to the leasors, I expect WJ will focus on CASM which relugates the 767 to 'has been.' Why did you suggest the 767 for an airline that won't be incorporating widebodies for a few years? By the time Westjet buys a widebody, there will be hundreds of 787s in the global fleet and that will change the economics.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4057 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 14537 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 13):
I imagine, if it actually does ever happen, they'll test the long haul waters much like they're trying out the 757...they'll try some wet leases to check things out before committing to buying a fleet.

I am surprised at WS not having their own 757's in the fleet before they move into the wide body market. I can't see WS buying any thing from Europe but from Boeing as they seem to like the North American product.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinelostsound From Canada, joined May 2012, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 14082 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 15):
I can't see WS buying any thing from Europe but from Boeing as they seem to like the North American product.

I don't think North America has anything to do with it. They started their business model based off Southwest's so they used the same 737 aircraft in order to do it properly. Through that, they have built a strong relationship with Boeing, who have so far churned out 100 planes in their name. This relationship they already have with the manufacturer is why I believe they will not go the Airbus path. Boeing will probably offer the 737MAX for cheap along side a 787 order which would be quite appetizing to WS.



"Our hands are full, our lives are not"
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1806 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 14026 times:

There are still some "terrible teens" on the market, a very cheap WB and should be decent in size and range? Shorter backlog too compared to new builds.

User currently offlinestrangr From Australia, joined Apr 2012, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10546 times:

imo Westjet has the ability to expand into a larger market, and I would be thinking only into the EU market which is what Canadians want the most of.

I consider how companies like VAU, they started off as a Low cost, no frills carrier, to now be a business market carrier fighting with the legacy for far more.

I see great potential in this for WJ, but hope they are smarter and only aim for markets like EU, a company like WJ would have no need to fly to China or Australia


User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 873 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10455 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
The 787 would be the ideal aircraft. Small size, good flexibility, low operating costs. But it won't be available until almost 2020 at this point with its backlog. The A350 has the operating costs but is larger probably than ideal. It can probably be had within three years. The A330 can be had within one to two years, I'd wager, but has the highest operating costs. That said, the current A330 is still a modern, efficient aircraft and it's going to be less expensive to order than the new planes.

I would think that a few 788 slots might be made open if some of the bigger carriers start taking long looks at the 787-10 and want to convert some of their current orders.

It would be interesting to see if the 788 can make inroads into a low-cost international market on less traveled routes. If there was an airframe to do it that would be the one.


User currently onlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13255 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10405 times:
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I can almost guarantee that Gregg has been wishing the B757-200 were still available for purchase from Boeing.


"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24075 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8453 times:

Quoting strangr (Reply 18):
I see great potential in this for WJ, but hope they are smarter and only aim for markets like EU, a company like WJ would have no need to fly to China or Australia

WestJet is WS not WJ. WJ is another Canadian carrier, Air Labrador, based in Goose Bay (YYR) serving many small points in the province of Newfoundland & Labrador as well as Quebec with 7 Twin Otters, 1 Beech 1900, 1 Beech King Air and 1 Cessna 208 Caravan.


User currently offlineSixtySeven From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 319 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8396 times:

Wonder if he will contract that flying out in terms of pilots?

He's done that with Encore.

He's tried it with the 757 Hawaii op.

He just made a speech concerning his unit costs being up 50% since launch. This certainly won't help.



Stand-by for new ATIS message......
User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7947 times:

Quoting AF185 (Thread starter):
The airline has no definitive plans to purchase wide-body aircraft, and any decisions will probably be delayed until it’s satisfied with new Encore regional unit.

I think this is the key. Very wise to get Encore making money before they try out new ventures.

That being said, the 788 is a no brainer if they ever go down this path. But I struggle to come up with new routes not already served, so they will just be stealing off AC as usual. I think current opportunities in secondary Chinese markets will be taken by the time this happens. I cant suddenly see a mass explosion of growth in YYC to start offering flights to HKG, PVG etc.

Can anyone explain why Zoom failed? They seemed to have a good thing going, I really enjoyed their service (for what I paid) when I used them and the planes seemed to be pretty full. My understanding it was their UK operation, Canada left to itself probably would have been OK? My point being there could be market for a similar product with 788's instead of 763's to compete with Canadian Affair (TS) and it would probably have a better chance of making it with the huge recognition and respect WS have vs a newb like Z4, deeper pockets and regional feed. Get a couple of codeshares with someone like AB or BE.



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlineBA777-236 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 673 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7925 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
The 787 would be the ideal aircraft. Small size, good flexibility, low operating costs. But it won't be available until almost 2020 at this point with its backlog.

What about via lessors? I'm sure their longhaul fleet (to start off) wouldn't be huge, so why not lease 5 frames and order 5 more?

What about Westjet and alliances? Are they interested in joining Oneworld or Skyteam?



I like British Airways! I'm not sure why, but I do! ;-)
25 abrelosojos : Gregg is a very smart man, and WestJet is probably has the best approach to figuring out the airline game. Airlines must evolve. Or, die. In a country
26 EA CO AS : Scratch that, I meant the -300.
27 behramjee : Over a long term period, the ideal aircraft for WS's long haul aspirations is indeed the Boeing 787-900 which would offer the best overall performance
28 JoeCanuck : It will be years before Westjet gets serious about any overseas routes. It is going to take at least a couple of years for their expansion plans south
29 Post contains links longhauler : I agree with what you say, but I think I would use the word "adapt" over "evolve". There are good reasons why an airline should not change if it is n
30 airliner371 : Well, they will in 2015, not exactly short term but not too far out.
31 krisyyz : Great news for Canadian travellers, but not for AC's LCC and TS. If WS is able to maintain their level of service on long-haul ops then they will undo
32 longhauler : Only if they are cheaper. There is NO brand loyalty nor service preferences when it comes to vacation leisure travelers. And I would doubt that WS co
33 threepoint : From the article longhauler provided: He said WestJet also wants to revisit the benefits received by the mainline employees. “We have found ourselv
34 lostsound : I think the biggest question of all is, would they be all-economy or will WestJet introduce a new long haul business class?
35 Viscount724 : Many leisure passengers also want to get their frequent flyer miles. A lot of leisure travellers are also very frequent business travellers and may t
36 yyz717 : Other than a 737 fleet based in YYC, WS is really nothing like CP was. Radically? No. Marginally? Yes. WS remains the same as it always was: an LCC.
37 Viscount724 : Frequency is also part of service. In most cases WS doesn't match AC frequency in major competitive markets, and frequency is a very strong factor in
38 PHX787 : I should've specified that I see WN as narrow-body only, given HOU's endeavor of getting Mexican service.
39 Post contains links thenoflyzone : What cost advantage ! WS's cost advantage over AC is down to only 10, 15%. http://business.financialpost.com/20...s-cushion-over-air-canada-shrinks/
40 thenoflyzone : Doubling the international passenger numbers at YYC from 1 million and change to 3 million is not a small feat (transborder pax not included)! Especi
41 connies4ever : Tend to agree. And if they are looking at Canada as an initial "international" market, I'd bet YHM would be the place they go. It's reasonably close
42 YXD172 : It'd be an interesting idea, the facilities are already there (there are a few weeklies to the Caribbean right now) and I'm sure the YHM airport auth
43 yyz717 : I agree. The Q400 fleet will enable them to increase freq's on key business routes. I know. I read that also. I wonder if that comment was aimed at t
44 BE77 : Being an airline pax based out of YYC, there are a few limitations in the WS offerings right now that a widebody would help fix (although a 737MAX wo
45 BE77 : As for a wb type. If they do go for wb, it would almost have to be a 787 or 350....choosing the 767 or 330 for anything more than temp lift while the
46 TWA772LR : If Westjet is really serious, I think they would go for some second hand 763s first. New A350s, A330s, 777s, or 787s is just too much money to risk.
47 Post contains images cyeg66 : Amazing the number of passengers 3 or 4 based 788-sized aircraft would bring in. Not all that difficult, really. Besides, by my "ok" math skills, 1.3
48 thenoflyzone : Yes, most of them will be flying, but you and me both know that most of the flying will be domestic. YYC is going to need to fund their new 14,000 fo
49 connies4ever : $429M to the good last quarter, just to point out. Even Mr Saretsky has recently conceded that WS's cost advantage over AC has largely evaporated. Mo
50 thenoflyzone : Add to that list....... - Useless management... . . . . "Lingering effects of merger"....lol....caused by what.......useless management..... Thenofly
51 BE77 : Most is probably right, but, that 'most' is likely noticeably less than the numbers indicate. As it stands, there is not a lot of incentive for AC to
52 connies4ever : I think it's common knowledge that the recent management of AC has not exhibited the leadership required under trying circumstances. As a manager mys
53 longhauler : CP possibly could have collapsed. Or maybe for political reasons the government would have allowed the proposal from AMR Corp, to increase investment
54 Post contains images cyeg66 : As though that makes it less prestigious... No one will argue that YYC is currently a predominantly domestic airport, what with WS being a mostly dom
55 JoeCanuck : WS has said they are pretty much maxed out domestically. They said one of the reasons they got the Q's was to free up some 737's to expand their netw
56 thenoflyzone : WS has been getting steady deliveries of 737s for years now. If demand warranted for a new US route out of YYC, nothing is stopping them from operatin
57 Viscount724 : Were you continuing to Europe? If so, wouldn't AC's nonstops to LHR and FRA, KL's nonstops to AMS and BA's nonstops to LHR, be more convenient than c
58 thenoflyzone : Exactly what i was thinking. YYC is extremely well connected internationally for a city of 1 million. Now that they have NRT as well, just can't see
59 JoeCanuck : All of their 737's are already working. They don't have any free planes to open new routes without sacrificing current routes. I'm just going by what
60 abrelosojos : = WN operates in a richer, larger, and relatively dense region of the U.S. It would take a lot more before WN reaches saturation. Finally, look at WN
61 Post contains links YYZatcboy : WN also had 727's, so they have operated two aircraft types. http://www.airliners.net/photo/South...rlines/Boeing-727-227-Adv/0084477/
62 connies4ever : Agreed, and if any one wants to join in on a new thread, I'm for it.
63 Post contains images YVRLTN : No need, just look in archive, in 4 outta 5 threads concerning AC it usually creeps in somewhere
64 BE77 : Typically the YYZ stopovers take me to Africa or South America. About 1/2 of Africa (French speaking) is much easier to get to through CDG, which I f
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