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AC Starting To Shop For 100 Narrow Bodies  
User currently offlinespqr From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 99 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 21285 times:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...ts-as-return-to-profit-is-forecast

didn't see this mentioned elsewhere, if it was my apologies.

Hopefully the home team (BBD) will get at least a portion of this, assuming their offering is in line with what A and B propose.

169 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 21098 times:

It's probably more accurate to say that Air Canada is within a few months of placing a narrow body order. They have been considering the competing aircraft for over a year now. Talks must be an intensive stage because management indicated that it likely won't take the year originally thought to do a deal.

The question is whether they want to deal with one manufacturer, likely Airbus, or split the order between Airbus and Bombardier and possibly offload all of the Embraers as was indicated in the pilot arbitration submission.

Cseries for up to 120 seats, Airbus over 120 seats, something like that.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4915 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 21031 times:

Quoting sebring (Reply 1):
The question is whether they want to deal with one manufacturer, likely Airbus, or split the order between Airbus and Bombardier and possibly offload all of the Embraers as was indicated in the pilot arbitration submission.

As per the Final Offer Submission, the E175s are leaving the fleet as we speak. They will be operated by SkyRegional, and training has started. My guess is that by next summer, they will all be operated under the Air Canada Express brand.

That leaves the 45 E190s, which must be flown in mainline Air Canada. While the CSeries does offer a competitively sized aircraft, that leaves Bombardier to make a case for replacing the E190s. That may be hard, as while the seat mile fuel burn is promised to be less, the capital outlay to purchase/lease the new aircraft would be considerable.

Not to mention the (very expensive) infrastructure put in place to support the E190s.

As the announcement was for 100 narrow bodies, it makes me think they are looking for an A319-A321 replacement, as that present fleet is roughly 100 aircraft.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinesebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 20911 times:

There currently are 88 Airbus narrowbodies in the fleet roster, and that presumably includes a couple of A320s flying for JETZ. Normally, if the NHL were alive, I'd suspect the active mainline Airbus fleet would be around 80. Next, a few older planes likely are headed for the LCC.

I think the most likely scenario is an all-Airbus order, but if Bombardier wanted a marquee customer for the CSeries, it could remarket the E-190s for AC which are pretty new and were acquired at significantly discounted launch prices. That kind of arrangement has happened many times before. Considering AC went for the Embraers in the first place, passing over a bigger fleet of CRAs, it has a great deal of credibility in the marketplace for making independent decisions. A CSeries buy would therefore not be seen as a hometown or politically inspired decision, but a vote in favor of the better aircraft. So I wouldn't say that it is inconceivable, just unlikely.

[Edited 2012-12-06 22:00:24]

[Edited 2012-12-06 22:02:14]

User currently offlineboeingorbust From Canada, joined Oct 2011, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 20844 times:

Article also mentioned they were in talks with Boeing.. Any likelyhood they could be considering the 737MAX? I assume if they go airbus it'll be NEO's all the way? I know AC recently changed their wide body preferencing to Boeing using the 777 and placing 787 orders. Would they consider the 737 for fleet commonality?

User currently offlinethreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 20681 times:

Quoting boeingorbust (Reply 4):
Would they consider the 737 for fleet commonality?

That's not fleet commonality, that's manufacturer commonality. As there is no common type rating between Boeing (or Airbus for that matter) narrow and widebody aircraft, there would be no apparent benefit for AC to select a sole manufacturer; they would still require separate training and maintenance programs, whatever the new type.

[Edited 2012-12-06 22:51:20]


The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlinefaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 19848 times:

How much weight does the Airbus Affair of the 1990's still have? Is it fair to say that Boeing have a 'moral' head start in this race?


Faro



The chalice not my son
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4915 posts, RR: 43
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 19710 times:

Quoting faro (Reply 6):
How much weight does the Airbus Affair of the 1990's still have? Is it fair to say that Boeing have a 'moral' head start in this race?

That was in the 1980s, as the first A320 arrived at AC in January of 1990. There are many that think the right decision was made, no matter how it was decided as today the A320 lasted longer than would have the B737-400 offered by Boeing.

Air Canada is likely to make a decision based on aircraft merit, and not the alleged actions of a politician 25 years ago.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineyowviewer From Canada, joined Jun 2010, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 19356 times:

Just curious as I must have missed something over time with the E190s. When AC first got them, they were claiming up to 20% savings on routes compared to the A320s. AC143 YUL-YOW-YEG for example has been changed from A320 to E190 ever since, and with rare exception (last weeks' extreme headwinds causing refuelling stop in Winnipeg) I thought it was doing well for AC.
Why are they so eager to get rid of them now ?
Thanks !


User currently offlinelostsound From Canada, joined May 2012, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 19358 times:

Air Canada will want to keep both Boeing and Airbus aircraft in their fleet in order to receive the best possible deals by playing the manufacturers against each other in years to come. So it is my opinion that the A32X fleet will be replaced with A32XNEOs.

Air Canada does appear to be interested in losing the Embraers, so I'm thinking the CSeries has a chance there. Air Canada might be poised to support the Home-Country's aviation-manufacturing sector.

Personally I hope Air Canada sticks with the Airbus narrowbodies and WestJet with the Boeings. I like having that diversity here, otherwise there will be no A32X operator here which would bum me out.



"Our hands are full, our lives are not"
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 19210 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 2):
As per the Final Offer Submission, the E175s are leaving the fleet as we speak. They will be operated by SkyRegional, and training has started. My guess is that by next summer, they will all be operated under the Air Canada Express brand.

The E175 transition to SkyRegional is scheduled for Feb-June 2013 according to print at the time it was announced.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 2):
That leaves the 45 E190s, which must be flown in mainline Air Canada. While the CSeries does offer a competitively sized aircraft, that leaves Bombardier to make a case for replacing the E190s. That may be hard, as while the seat mile fuel burn is promised to be less, the capital outlay to purchase/lease the new aircraft would be considerable.

Not to mention the reduced ROI if the E190 fleet is removed from service after only a few years and are heavily discounted for re-sale (45 aircraft is alot to release onto the market). The business case to replace such a relatively new aircraft with only marginally newer aircraft might be difficult.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 2):
As the announcement was for 100 narrow bodies, it makes me think they are looking for an A319-A321 replacement, as that present fleet is roughly 100 aircraft.

Seems likely, given the age of the A320 fleet. The A32xneo seems like the logical choice, unless Boeing can win them over to the 8/9MAX. Given the popularity of the neo and the increasingly fewer earlier delivery slots, AC needs to move fast with a neo order.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2995 posts, RR: 37
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 18358 times:
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Either the MAX or NEO will work fine for the A320/321 replacement, let the salespeople from Boeing and Airbus earn their salaries...
The to me question is, do they replace the 319 with same or with CS100 or 300? The CS300ER can cover all of North America from YYZ, most of it from YVR... very little of the flying the A319 does for AC is beyond the range (with obvious exceptions like YYT-LHR which could be moved to the larger 320 replacement). The CS300 is just slightly smaller than the A319, but thats not a bad thing necessarily. And with alot of the 319s possibly moving to the LCC... BBD might have a foot in the door if the price is right.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30654 posts, RR: 84
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 18256 times:
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The A320neo would not require any re-training, but if AC wants to start replacing planes sooner rather than later, I wonder if the MAX might have better availability.

The engine manufacturers might have a say in this, as well. A CSeries order would allow Pratt to push A320neos with GTFs. On the flip side, AC's widebody fleet moving to GE power could have CFM making an offer for the neo or the MAX.

[Edited 2012-12-07 11:11:11]

User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4915 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 17892 times:

Quoting yowviewer (Reply 8):
AC143 YUL-YOW-YEG for example has been changed from A320 to E190 ever since, and with rare exception (last weeks' extreme headwinds causing refuelling stop in Winnipeg)

The E190 can easily fly non-stop from YOW-YEG, even with a 100 knot headwind. The big problem is if the winds were higher than planned, or if weather at the destination or alternate changed. Or some combination of the above, namely a far alternate, more than normal contingency fuel combined with a longer flying time.

Quoting yowviewer (Reply 8):
I thought it was doing well for AC.
Why are they so eager to get rid of them now ?

I wasn't aware they were ... as far as I can tell, this planned purchase is to replace the A320 series.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
The A320neo would not require any re-training, but if AC wants to start replacing planes sooner rather than later, I wonder if the MAX might have better availability.

I think the training and crewing aspect is what gives the A320neo the edge. They can be introduced into the fleet with only minimal training meaning a crew compliment already exists. They just introduce them into the schedule when they arrive.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinebeechnut From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 723 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 17650 times:

Quoting boeingorbust (Reply 4):
Article also mentioned they were in talks with Boeing.. Any likelyhood they could be considering the 737MAX? I assume if they go airbus it'll be NEO's all the way? I know AC recently changed their wide body preferencing to Boeing using the 777 and placing 787 orders. Would they consider the 737 for fleet commonality?

It would very much surprise me. The main reason, being the Airbus containerized cargo capabilities and the infrastructure already in place to handle it. Currently the A320s are the backbone of the transcontinental fleet, and carry considerable cargo across the country. It would surprise me to see AC give this up, unless the Max has this ability as well which I don't think it does. This isn't such an issue on really short haul, so won't likely impact on the C-series vs. Embraer debate, if indeed that is on the table (not so sure about that either).

Underbelly cargo is big business for AC. It's one of the things in favour of the 777 as well, for long haul. I don't think that's changing any time soon.

Also as mentioned elsewhere, the 737 wouldn't have any commonality with anything else in the AC fleet, so that's a non-issue. The only commonality would be the manufacturer, and the only benefit I could see would be deeper discounting. Maybe. But it's in AC's favour to play one manufacturer off the other until they whittle down the price to what they're prepared to pay. Really, the order is Airbus's to lose.

I'm sure the bulk of the order won't be a surprise: a mix of 320/321 NEO, with perhaps some 319 NEO, the big question mark being the exact ratios (1:1 replacement, or a different mix?), and what, if anything, migrates to the LCC fleet. Any surprises would be the replacement of the EMB fleet with BBD C-series. And that would be a BIG surprise IMHO. If AC does do it, you can bet that national pride won't have anything to do with it, the decision will be strictly economic and technical.

Beech


User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1985 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16766 times:

I have always thought that the best combination for AC would be something like 50 A321s and 100 CSeries birds (some combination of CS100/CS300). Get rid of the E-Jets.

That would provide maximum CASM for thicker routes like YVR or the sun routes, and solid range-payload for long US routes like LAX/SFO/SEA. Or more TATL to hubs: YHZ-FRA? The 321NEO really is the perfect bird for routes in this hemisphere. I'd imagine AC could make AC could even deploy them on some longer, thinner routes. YVR-CUN or all-year YYC-HNL? Or YZF-YYZ direct? Or even TATL: YHZ-GLA. YHZ-MAN. YHZ-DUB. YYT-LHR all year-round.

The E-Jets really aren't all that much better than RJs. And getting 319s would be a bad CASM buy.

Just my    ...

[Edited 2012-12-07 13:37:44]

User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1985 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16568 times:

I sincerely hope Bombardier goes for the win and strikes a deal to get the CSeries in AC's fleet. Remarket the E-Jets.

As a passenger, I would love to be flying on the CSeries. It would be the most comfortable offering in North America.


User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 388 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 16207 times:

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 11):
Either the MAX or NEO will work fine for the A320/321 replacement, let the salespeople from Boeing and Airbus earn their salaries...
The to me question is, do they replace the 319 with same or with CS100 or 300? The CS300ER can cover all of North America from YYZ, most of it from YVR... very little of the flying the A319 does for AC is beyond the range (with obvious exceptions like YYT-LHR which could be moved to the larger 320 replacement). The CS300 is just slightly smaller than the A319, but thats not a bad thing necessarily. And with alot of the 319s possibly moving to the LCC... BBD might have a foot in the door if the price is right.

It will be interesting to see how the C series shakes out here. Normally, you wouldn't expect it to have much of a chance. The efficiency $$ advantages of more optimized -300 over the A319 are probably not large enough to overcome the allure of a single common fleet with minimal crew transition costs...but that assumes a buyer that has no political pressures or allegiances to think about. I don't think politics will be a major sway here given AC's a private company, but it could at least be enough of a consideration to tip the scales to the underdog. Other things that might help BBD would be if AC needs some smaller ~100 seaters added to its fleet for replacement/growth needs (CS100), in which case the scope argument may not be as strongly in the A319's favor. Also, if AC needs frames faster than they can get on a long NEO backlog, that might be a factor as well. (I'm not sure of all the facts surrounding AC at this point, so others will have to expand.)

-As for the size of an A319 vs. a CS300, I actually think it's similar enough to be a 1:1 replacement, so that wouldn't be an issue IMO. Looks like AC has their 319's configured 14F/106Y. The -300 would seem to allow for basically the same configuration.

Quoting ytz (Reply 16):
I sincerely hope Bombardier goes for the win and strikes a deal to get the CSeries in AC's fleet. Remarket the E-Jets.
As a passenger, I would love to be flying on the CSeries. It would be the most comfortable offering in North America.

The Y comfort would be very refreshing, and it's one of the reasons I like the plane so much; seems to accomodate both the airline's cost concerns and customer comfort very well.


User currently offlineac853 From Canada, joined Aug 2009, 25 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15695 times:
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Just Curious. Why is Air Canada not happy with the E190?. Are the operating costs that bad or are they just too small? They are extensively used in western Canada and very comfortable to fly in. They seem much more spacious than the CRJ-705s

User currently offlineRickNRoll From Afghanistan, joined Jan 2012, 785 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15298 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
The A320neo would not require any re-training, but if AC wants to start replacing planes sooner rather than later, I wonder if the MAX might have better availability.

It's an interesting situation for the Airbus/Boeing duopoly. Even if a plane is not as good as the other (in the buyers opinion), both manufacturers offer competitive planes that do the job well. The manufacturing constraints on both mean that they are guaranteed a good part of the market either way. (except for the much more specialised markets, such as the VLA market)


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4915 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15216 times:

Quoting ac853 (Reply 18):
Just Curious. Why is Air Canada not happy with the E190?.

Air Canada is very happy with the E190.

After the initial teething trouble, (like the A320, like the DC-8, like the Super Connie, like the CSeries etc etc etc), the aircraft is as reliable as the A320 series. The E190 has a seat mile cost somewhere between the A319 and the A320, which is astounding for an aircraft its size.

Also, with one of the largest Y seats in the business, Marketing has stated there is a preference by passengers over other competing narrow body aircraft.

If this purchase for narrow body aircraft includes the E190, (VERY big if btw) then Bombardier better come up with a very good sales pitch. As I said above, the existing infrastructure and the low capital outlay of the E190 are hard to overcome by lower fuel burn alone.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineytz From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1985 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 14782 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 20):
As I said above, the existing infrastructure and the low capital outlay of the E190 are hard to overcome by lower fuel burn alone.

There's good opportunity here for Bombardier, since it won't be a 1:1 trade. It would be a 2:1 deal. Trade in 45 E190s and Bombardier gets to replace these and the ~40 319s. That's at least 80 aircraft. Heck, they could also get a deal to trade the E175s for more CRJ705s.


User currently offlineSixtySeven From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 332 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 14730 times:

Who says AC is very happy with the 190? You think an airplane less than 10 years old is up for replacement signifies satisfaction? It was a bad purchase. You speak of lots of legroom but that was before they added more rows. It's cramped now.

EMJ and Bombardier build cheap disposable airplanes. They're amateur hour compared to Boeing and Airbus. Notice they never mucked about in that segment.

Either way Bombardier has a real possibility of landing this order. Remember AC is on bended knee to the govt looking for pension funding relief...... Use your imagination. And if govt meddling doesn't come into the mix realize this about Air Canada.

THE BEAN COUNTERS WILL PICK THE CHEAPEST OPTION REGARDLESS OF AIRCRAFT MERITS.

Always have always will. Except when Milton's ego got involved and he got the 777s and 787s for a song. Good on him.



Stand-by for new ATIS message......
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4915 posts, RR: 43
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 14597 times:

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 22):
Who says AC is very happy with the 190? You think an airplane less than 10 years old is up for replacement signifies satisfaction?

Air Canada says they are happy with the Embraers, and where have they stated they are up for replacement?

AC had the opportunity to ditch the E175s and replace them with more CRJ705s, but they chose to keep them. Why do you think that is?

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 22):
Notice they never mucked about in that segment.

They tried with the B737-600 and the A318. Or as I like to refer to them, the Vega and the Pinto.

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 22):
EMJ and Bombardier build cheap disposable airplanes.

It is a tough engineering assignment to build a less than 100 seat aircraft that has reasonable seat mile costs, yet both BBD and Embraer have done that well. Yes, they are lighter, that is what makes them efficient. If you see that as "disposable" then why don't airlines? Because, as you state:

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 22):

THE BEAN COUNTERS WILL PICK THE CHEAPEST OPTION REGARDLESS OF AIRCRAFT MERITS.

Yes, the B737-600 and the A318 are excellent aircraft, and they do their job superbly, except ... seat mile cost.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineSixtySeven From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 332 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 14428 times:

They are cheaply built airplanes.

Why do you think the big boys didnt stick their nose into this segment? Pinto and Vega sure. How many did they sell and how much capital did they sink into those programs? Not much which is why they didnt sell and are not selling. They were too heavy. Big airliners chopped into small ones with all the big boy parts weighing them down. Now. I would hazard a guess the boys at EADS and Boeing know a little more than you or I when it comes to where the market is. And I think the 100 seat market is a bogus one nowadays as the airplanes dont provide the airlines with the upflex they need when things open up. Im sure we will agree to disagree on this.

Now. You say Air Canada has no plans of getting rid of the EMJs. Hmmmm. Is it a narrowbody? They're looking to replace their narrow body fleet.

Remember that the 10 year plan has the fleet composition looking 50/50 widebody/narrowbody. Dont be looking for narrowbody growth ie: 100 new narrowbody jets and keeping the EMJs too. aint gonna happen. There is not going to be 160 narrowbody jets at AC.

Much like I dont think the LCC will ever reach 50 airframes.



Stand-by for new ATIS message......
25 longhauler : I am not sure if you understood my Pinto and Vega reference, as you are younger than me. But Ford and GM designed the two, as there appeared a new th
26 SixtySeven : By Bogus I mean for the mainline legacy carrier. AC has everything in place to grow internationally and shrink its domestically Thanks for the history
27 ytz : 1) Normally Embraer is shortened to EMB. What's EMJ? 2) By what definition are their aircraft cheap and/or disposable? The Dash series (now Q series
28 ytz : It's not whether they want to get rid of them or not. They aren't anywhere close to End-of-Life like the A319s and A320s. So the ball is in Bombardie
29 Post contains images YVRLTN : Not sure why the hate for the E190. Its a wonderful aircraft for AC, very flexible, long legs, equally happy on short hops and they got them for a ver
30 PPVRA : If they are cheaply built jets, why DIDN'T Airbus and Boeing stick their noses into this segment? They could have eaten Bombardier's and Embraer's lu
31 ytz : Except that the E-Jets effectively were A32S replacements.....or rather supplanted the growth of the A32S fleet. There's a good reason they're mainli
32 Post contains images davs5032 : I agree. I'd always liked the EJets, but gained an even greater appreciation for it last year when, (in a lousy attempt to save some $$ of course), I
33 behramjee : In my personal opinion, Air Canada should give serious consideration to two aircraft in particular when making this decision i.e. the A321NEO and the
34 liftsifter : I don't know why, but I see AC as a total 737MAX airline.
35 longhauler : They were DC-9, B737-200 and F-28 replacements. No A320 series aircraft left the fleet as a result of the E190 purchase. When ordered, the A319 was t
36 lostsound : Don't forget YYT - LHR. It's not a long or far flight but If Air Canada continues that route, the CSeries would have to get certified for ETOPS.[Edit
37 Post contains links JoeCanuck : They are already planning to certify it for ETOPS 120 by EIS and 180 within 6 months after. http://www.rjet.ca/blog/2012/01/06/b...est-program-for-cs
38 SixtySeven : You think AC is going to get more 321s? For the Atlantic. I'd love to hear where you have them flying to. Clearly you have crunched the numbers heavi
39 SixtySeven : It may not be a long flight but it is a challenging flight. Eastbound there is no problem. Westbound is an entirely different story. And is the reaso
40 YTZ : I don't know if they will. But yes, I think they should. Not just the Atlantic. That was just one example. But I think the 321NEO would do quite well
41 YTZ : 1) Nonsense. An aircraft with a max range-payload over 2200nm can't fly a great circle route of 2012nm with a limited payload (I doubt there's a ton
42 SixtySeven : Nonsense. LOL. Was I talking about the NEO? No. I was talking about the operation as it is today. How often does the rock get socked in in the winter
43 gingersnap : Each to their own but I don't see anything other than NEO for the bulk of the order.
44 SixtySeven : I do too. But the conspiracy theorist in me sees the CSeries. Which I think will be the lemon of the bunch. Canadian company, needs a big first order
45 Viscount724 : Agree. After a quarter century of A320 family experience and the investment in parts, training, maintenance equipment etc., I can't see AC reverting
46 YVRLTN : And where do these 757's operate from? Large O&D / point-2-point markets like JFK, EWR, IAD and major airlines hubs. The equivalent for AC is YYZ
47 connies4ever : BBD have stated CS100 ETOPS 'out-of-the-box', so LCY-JFK could start up on delivery. I think this would be Privat Air.
48 Post contains images sunrisevalley : Come on Viscount724 you can do better than drag this one out. What is it, 2.8" at the shoulders divided over 6-seats. It is hardly measurable. I woul
49 SixtySeven : Hmmm. And how is this going to happen? The A318 has better range than any C Series. The problem with this route has to do with the runway limit weigh
50 flightsimer : As do I for some reason. I believe Boeing will try to capture both Air Canada and British when they issue their request. And the A320, which is based
51 JoeCanuck : If anything, what gives the 320 the leg up is continuity. All things being equal, if there is no clear advantage in performance or price, there reall
52 lostsound : They'll try and most likely fail. I don't see the business case for AC to swap over to a completely different product when the product they currently
53 Post contains images davs5032 : They're all valid points, and I agree. However, it's just hard for me to see AC, which has just recently put the E190 teething problems in the rear-v
54 Post contains links YTZ : Does that have to do with the aircraft being fuel limited or the fact that YYT and all the nearby alternates get hit by the same weather system frequ
55 YTZ : Very true. However, I'd say that aircraft type does go towards branding. An extreme example would be what the A380 has done for EK. Or more broadly e
56 GCT64 : I agree, I can't see why AC would want to dump the E190s. In my experience (incl. the long YYZ-SEA leg) the AC E190s are, in Y, the most comfortable
57 SixtySeven : Both. The limiting factor is the amount of gas the airplane can physically carry. One of the other challenges on this route is the fact that the ETOP
58 davs5032 : You're looking @ the CS-300's take off run. The CS-100's, which is what Privatair has purchased for the route, is listed @ 4,951ft/1,509m, which just
59 SixtySeven : Not really. For me the big thing is the viability of the route based on it being non stop. You mention earlier that it may need a fuel stop, in that
60 davs5032 : You make fair points. I think we're just looking at this from different angles. My thinking is that if the CS100 can allow Privatair the ability to d
61 Post contains links YTZ : Right. But earlier you presented one case. Ditto for you I suppose. You have still avoided the question of what makes the CSeries a "lemon". Wider se
62 YTZ : I don't get why anybody sees the possible replacement of E190s as a hate-on for the aircraft. I fully concur that the E190s are terrific aircraft. An
63 SixtySeven : ETOPS is not a big deal at all. Open your eyes and brain. Ask yourself this before asking the question you did ask. "How many 100 seaters needed ETOPS
64 Post contains links YTZ : I was under the impression that Privat Air bought the aircraft to operate from GVA. It's Odyssey that bought the aircraft to operate from LCY. Nobody
65 connies4ever : Actually, CSeries has more orders and options prior to FF than did the 737 (which actually was nearly cancelled).
66 YTZ : It was hardly tongue in cheek. You're just backtracking now because you have no actual facts to back up the statement. Keep moving the goalposts of y
67 Post contains images lightsaber : But worse shortfield and Bombardier has signed up to improve the CS100 shortfield performance as Embraer did too. There is a 5t difference in empty w
68 SixtySeven : Huh? I think there's a misunderstanding here. AC will obviously order the MAX or the NEO, or of course YTZs beloved CSeries. Are you saying the Cseri
69 Post contains images YTZ : @lightsaber, I have always wondered if the CSeries could do LHR-YHZ in a conventional J/Y configuration. Now that would be something! And I too suspec
70 SixtySeven : Here ya go YTZ. I guess I'll get chastised for moving goal posts again. Scott acknowledges that Bombardier had hoped to launch the CSeries programme w
71 YTZ : Quick question to anybody on here. How many FAs on the E-190 and A319? Could AC run with 3 FAs on the CS100/CS300? (1 for J, 2 for Y cabins). Or are t
72 YTZ : Pull out the exact line where i said the CS300 would be doing any route from LCY. Exact quote, please. Go through my posts and pull it out. I will fu
73 SixtySeven : Did I say you did? A little jumpy bud. LOL. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. LMAO
74 YTZ : Read you posts. I only got my hackles up because of the tone of your posts. They are unnecessarily arrogant and aggressive. It'll be better if you le
75 SixtySeven : YTZ. I think you need to take a deep breath. I got my "hackles" up when you called a statement I made about the LHR-YYT route being challenging; "nons
76 Post contains links miller22 : Silly man. That's at type spec...110 seats to save you the trouble of Googling it. The 318 today only operates with 32. I could take the time to expl
77 YTZ : Forget number of posts. The fact that I've been around for 2.5 years less than you have on a.net, yet have a 3x higher respect rating should tell you
78 YTZ : @Miller22 Not just the fuel capacity to go direct. The longer (but less wide) cabin allows for 8 (25%) more J seats. 40 seats. Combine that with 22.5%
79 davs5032 : Thanks for sharing that...I should searched for and utilized it rather than trying to making the argument by myself, but it backs me up at least.
80 connies4ever : Ah, grasshopper, there is much to learn. I see from your profile you are in the 36-45 category. I am older and remember. The 737 as a project is 48.
81 Viscount724 : Except there's not much of a market for that type of service. LCY-JFK is a very niche market that caters to those working in the financial industry b
82 Post contains links and images lightsaber : Not to mention Pratt miss after Pratt miss. My... rumor mill insists Pratt will beat target and I see conservatism in Bombardier's design. On topic:
83 YTZ : @Viscount724 I get the purpose of the LCY-JFK link. But the reason I asked about YHZ-LHR was as a replacement for the existing 763 service. Like I sai
84 SixtySeven : None at all. I just didn't make the connection between 737-100 and CSeries. I dont see the corollary except maybe you are saying that the sky is the
85 Post contains images YTZ : Finally, a favour returned! People, keep saying this. But I've yet to see evidence anywhere that AC is losing money on this route. Today, yes. But I'
86 YTZ : Interesting. I wonder what the figure is that matters to AC. What would they need on range-payload to make it work. I would guess TCON with a full pa
87 JoeCanuck : I agree and it was smart of BBD to hit them where they ain't...at least at first. The CSeries was, to a significant degree, the impetus for the NEO a
88 Post contains images YTZ : And particularly for AC. Just look at the earlier example of YYZ-SEA. This is why I don't get the argument that the CSeries would not suit AC. The on
89 YTZ : I don't get how timing will work for AC. The A320 fleet ages out first. Then the A319 fleet. But I can't see Airbus or Boeing being able to offer next
90 JoeCanuck : I'm sure there would be plenty of takers for a good used E-jets...though they are doing one heck of a job for AC. The mutterings seem to indicate the
91 connies4ever : Not sure the sky's the limit for the CSeries, it still has to prove itself. That said, if it can meet or slightly exceed spec, and I sort of expect t
92 YTZ : Anybody have any idea how many 319s are moving to the LCC?
93 SixtySeven : Absolutely. The reason they have no problems with the other 320 family jets on these routes is they have the legs/performance. The 320 is a good perf
94 SixtySeven : Up to 30 A319s. Start up is 6. Upto 20 767s. Start up is 4. After those initial 4 aircraft are deployed a 767 can only go over to LCC once it is repl
95 connies4ever : ?? One of the reasons for the 319, or so I thought, was the ability to do YHZ-YVR nonstop in the winter. Which is why it does not have the container
96 SixtySeven : You are correct. The 319 is great in the sense it has the range to do things the 320 and 321 cannot. It did do YHZ-YVR at one point not sure if it sti
97 Post contains links YTZ : I'd say it's more than a maybe. Many are touting the 321NEO as a 752 replacement. If that's true, I'd expect to see the aircraft deployed on BOS-LHR
98 longhauler : You keep suggesting this, but for the life of me, I can't imagine why. It is a daily B767-300ER, I fly the route a fair amount, and trust me .... no
99 YTZ : Exactly why an LCC is appropriate for AC. People on here may not like it. But this is why a LCC makes sense for AC. And as long as the LCC is a separ
100 Post contains links YTZ : Fair enough. I just wonder if this really is the best deployment of a widebody for AC. I have long thought that maybe a lot of the traffic that is LH
101 YTZ : -Double post. Apologies.[Edited 2012-12-10 11:50:43]
102 SixtySeven : If it happens all the time sure. If it's a rare occasion then its "we will get you to where you are going close to on time" instead of a day later. B
103 BoeingGuy : The 717 would have been a perfect airplane for AC (and a lot of other airlines). Too bad the market didn't realize this in time. It's a very solidly b
104 YTZ : Could you explain why? To me, the range seems rather low. And the CASM would be much higher than the alternatives. So what makes it the perfect plane
105 JoeCanuck : I think the E-jets are just about perfect planes in the 100 seat ballpark...especially considering the deal they supposedly got for them. Somebody is
106 cxh : AC did fly YVR-YHZ nonstop (both ways) for about two summers, seasonal only. One daily flight each way on the A319. About 10 years ago. I flew both d
107 YTZ : Right. That's why I said 2017at the earliest for BBD (I assumed no slots in 2014, 2015, 2016). That's still a lot earlier than Boeing or Airbus. BBD
108 YVRLTN : OK, but we are talking about transatlanitc markets. YHZ does not even come close to any of these markets you mention anyway. They already do, both ar
109 Viscount724 : Agree. The 717 had the same range problem as AC's large DC-9 fleet. CP's 737-200s, especially the later advanced models, were much more flexible due
110 YTZ : As I've always maintained...a lot has to line up. Otherwise, I agree that it will probably be the NEO. I've only suggested that we shouldn't write of
111 Post contains images YVRLTN : As I said, just IMO, but existing infrastructure and containerized cargo capability (a key for beating out the 737 in the first place) are two very s
112 columba : A few years ago Lufthansa wanted a joint purchase from Star Alliance carriers for a 100 seater aircraft. Air Canada decided against the 717 favored b
113 YTZ : LOL. Not with 10 abreast Y.....now I'll have to try hard to avoid AC when flying international!
114 SixtySeven : I think what is being discussed here concerning the 319 being replaced by the CS is a bit of a stretch. The range of the 319 is its plus it's density
115 Post contains images YVRLTN : As I said, just IMO, but existing infrastructure and containerized cargo capability (a key for beating out the 737 in the first place) are two very s
116 YTZ : The same markets that the A319 does. Seriously, you need to read up about the CSeries. The CS300 is only a tad short on range from the 319. And somet
117 YTZ : People say this. Yet, they bougth 319s that don't use containerized cargo, if I'm not mistaken. If that's the case, that tells me that AC would be ok
118 longhauler : I think containerized cargo is a red herring. When I flew the A320/A321, I don't recall it being any quicker to service with regard to baggage handli
119 Post contains images SixtySeven : Lomghauler obviously you haven't read enough about the CS
120 Post contains images longhauler : I have read all that is available, being the airliner geek that I am! However, from a bottom line/accounting point of view, cause lets face it that's
121 SixtySeven : Obviously I got your dander up with the lemon comment. You called me things like arrogant and continue to call me unimaginative and having tunnel vis
122 sunrisevalley : Could all this be replicated for a new type for $50m plus untold upheaval during the change over against which it is difficult to ascribe costs . I d
123 YTZ : Of course! Does any OEM win a sales campaign with a mediocre pitch? Agreed. Then again, there'd be no CSeries without the GTF. And really, that old B
124 YTZ : 1) That was only said after you somehow claimed that I thought I had more credibility because I had more posts. I have never made that assertion at a
125 YTZ : @longhauler Any thoughts on how the LCC impacts the narrowbody recap? The question I have is what the hundred airplane buy is for, if they are shuntin
126 Post contains links SixtySeven : Really? Just some highlights. Perhaps you should look at the link I provided for some further reading. You know, you wouldn't want to make statements
127 SixtySeven : I would say the requirement to replace the Legacy Herc had a bit more to do with absolute necessity than ACs situation with any of their fleet. Readi
128 longhauler : As you know, the LCC will draw its types from the current fleet. They are not necessarily coming from the fleet, (on start up 2 A319s are not coming
129 Post contains images saloman : You're gonna have to do a lot better than Skytrax to back up an argument on a-net. Use the search functions to find some of their credibility issues.
130 SixtySeven : I agree, but I think that would be a pretty easy loophole to close and capitalize on don't you?. To the question of how important cargo will be? I'd
131 northstardc4m : I'll refresh one point here: Sunk costs can be mitigated by the seller to make a deal. Yes sims are expensive but if Boeing was to sell the MAX bad en
132 YTZ : Winning any award in North America is a consolation prize at best. Compared to UA, AA or DL, with their ancient fleets, yes, AC is great. But for any
133 longhauler : I guess that all depends on the terms of the sale. At AC, the sims seems to linger a lot longer than the aircraft, and contract training was performe
134 SixtySeven : I respectfully disagree. We are talking about AC making a NB jet order. To a fleet that is beginning to see some age, sure at some point they will ne
135 SixtySeven : I am well aware of this. AC used to run up against Singapore and Swissair for best airline in the world. Times have changed. Why dilute an accolade s
136 Post contains images saloman : Ah, okay I see where I'm misunderstanding you. You're saying that as it stands AC doesn't have to change the infrastructure built for the Airbus beca
137 SixtySeven : Saloman Thats exactly what I meant. And I agree with you that if they move to a different type from what they have now, the deal would have to be such
138 Viscount724 : Many would disagree that EK is better. AC doesn't subject its 777 passengers to cramped 10-abreast seating in Y class, or their A330 J class passenge
139 YTZ : This is what I was getting at earlier. Of course, for this to be true, the challenging OEM has to see significant enough potential down the road that
140 YTZ : An important caveat: EK doesn't send 777s to Canada. So in that sense AC and its *A partners are competing against an EK that sends A380s to YYZ with
141 Viscount724 : Yes, but the vast majority of EK passengers to/from Canada are connecting beyond DXB, and with EK's huge 777 fleet, there's a good chance they'll enc
142 SixtySeven : That was just a tongue in cheek example fellas.
143 SixtySeven : If the office of procurement have provided the govt with excellent analysis I'd say the govt doesn't listen to them very well. In recent history the
144 zbbylw : I see everyone spouting off about the 10-abreast 777s can you or anyone else offer a link to a press release from AC? I am not doubting this could ha
145 longhauler : They have not given any details about the cabin configuration for the two new B77Ws arriving this year. All that has been announced is that they will
146 YTZ : 3 hrs on a 10-abreast 777 is tolerable. The alternative in most places for that stage lenght would be a narrowbody with equivalent seat width. Lots a
147 Post contains images YVRLTN : Im sure you are right, but its quicker behind the scenes, you can just transfer a container from one aircraft to another - or its still quicker to tr
148 SixtySeven : I dont think they would. It's already established that they will carry mainline code and standard interline agreement. That sure as heck would involv
149 YTZ : I wouldn't count WS orWN as LCC. WS has IFE. They offer air miles. They are going to be offering Y+. And their seat pitch is hardly LCC standards. Th
150 SixtySeven : ACs LCC will have the same IFE as mainline. The high density 767s that do not have setback IFEs now will be upgraded before launch I am told. On that
151 Post contains links YXD172 : I wonder if it will be the same as the current 'Caribbean' configured A319: 31" pitch giving 132Y in 22 rows. See layout 2 here: http://www.aircanada
152 Post contains links YTZ : That's just a result of legacy fleet choice. I imagine they don't want to spend money ripping out the kit. I find this surprising. They don't need it
153 longhauler : Yes, indications I am reading also suggest that AVOD IFE will be installed/retained at the LCC. Perhaps for purchase unlike mainline where it is comp
154 Post contains links YTZ : Honestly, one reason I hope AC gets 321NEOs or 739MAXs is so that they can offer a better hard product. Look at VX's J product. AC might be able to pu
155 SixtySeven : Could be. Then again they might just want to provide a nice product. Remember when they rip out J on the 319 they'd have to put IFE into the fwd cabi
156 lostsound : The AC A319s cannot have more than 149 seats or else they will need to add an extra emergency exit over each wing. I'd imagine they have no desire in
157 YTZ : Didn't know that. Honestly, never flown TS. Their reputation precedes them and I'd rather fly AC if that's the alternative. But if AC starts going do
158 Viscount724 : The alternative would also often be a much nicer 2-4-2 A330/340. And on a 3-hour sector, I would always choose a 737 or especially A320 over a 10-abr
159 YTZ : True. But, when you're looking at a flight to India/Pakistan/Bangladesh/Sri Lanka, what you often end up getting is AC to FRA or MUC and then from th
160 odwyerpw : Dude, you are entitled to strong opinions. I or no one else will deny you those. But, could you be a little nicer to folks. It really isn't necessary
161 bjorn14 : I think they use it on the YYZ-YYJ route wihich is 2100 mi. I didn't know those cockpits were that different? Anybody know if the NEO cockpit will be
162 zbbylw : While I am sure it has flown that route, it's usually either an 319 or 320. With that being said SEA and when it is operating PDX has been in the E90
163 longhauler : The longest route on which AC flew the E190 with passengers was YYZ-SNA, at 2158 sm, or 1875 nm. As stated, the longest current route is YYZ-SEA 2060
164 boeingorbust : I was only referring to the fact that they are transitioning their wide body fleet to Boeing. Is there no commonality between the 777, 787 and 737? W
165 Post contains images scbriml : In a duopoly why would you only consider one manufacturer?
166 boeingorbust : It would save time and money if your current operations only economically allowed for one manufacturer as others have been telling me in this forum.
167 JoeCanuck : It all depends on the size of your fleets. Recently, a Lufthansa higher up said that it takes around 20 - 25 of a certain model to make it worthwhile
168 scbriml : While that may be a factor for a smaller fleet, the numbers that AC are talking about they'd be foolish not to consider both OEMs.
169 boeingorbust : Good point. I think this is pretty much what WS did with their recent Q400 order for Encore.
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