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What's Going On @ MCO?  
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6422 posts, RR: 17
Posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5701 times:

I did a thread about 4 1/2 years ago asking about MCO's proposed new Intl terminal:
Is MCO Still Building An Int'l Terminal? (by 727LOVER Aug 11 2008 in Civil Aviation)

Is this STILL on hold?......if so why? There has been a big uptick in intl flights recently.


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With WN/FL consolidation, is there an opening for NK? Seems like a perfect market for them to expand greatly including TATL. Would there be around 6 or 7 gates available to them?

And isn't Diz about to open some new big thing?

The west runways seem to have been closed a lot recently, my understanding is for taxiway stuff, unusually long periods, why?

Any new INTL carriers on the way?


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Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemcoatc From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 194 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5511 times:

Ok, I'll have a go at this as best I can.

1. There is nothing official yet on the new terminal. I keep hearing that GOAA is getting closer to pulling the trigger, but I've also been hearing that for 2 years or so. I think they may be waiting for a larger uptick in domestic travel as well. The airport still has a fair amount of open gate space.

2. NK has expanded here a bit recently, with the new ORD, DFW, Latrobe, and now IAH. I think FLL will continue to be their intl gateway.

3. Disney just opened the expanded Fantasyland yesterday, but I don't think there is any really effect on the airport.

4. The west runways have been closed for a number or different reasons, and 18R/36L just closed for 90 days as of two weeks ago. B2, which was just built between the parallels, is now being constructed west of 18R. The bigger reason for the closure is the re-alignment of taxiway A and A1, which no longer meets FAA design code. Apparently the 45 degree angle that A1 meets the runway at must be changed to a 90 degree angle.....and there's a retention pond in the area that complicates the project. After the runway opens, something else will undoubtedly close. I've heard there are 3 years of projects lined up, dependent upon funding. We're lucky to have extra pavement to work with.

5. I haven't heard about any new intl service. AF pulled out in September and I believe GOL is starting something via SDQ, but that's it.


User currently offlinexjramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2460 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5453 times:

People don't seem to understand that most FL (the state) markets make little money if not at a loss for all airlines. Most travelers are usually on holiday or conventions. This is partly the reason why DL scaled MCO back so far and downgauged a lot of aircraft (ie 777s, MD11s, 764s, and more recently 763s) to the 757 variants and 737s. Similar things happened to TPA/FLL/MIA/PBI, although there are occasional 767s randomly thrown in from time to time.

While you have B6 and to a lesser extent WN flying some short-medium haul international flights, there just isn't much point to build an international terminal when the FIS/CBP facilities that exist today work just fine. My guess is that they decided to reallocate the funds from building a new terminal to making improvements on the airfield instead. Probably a smart move by the GOAA.



Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlineDazed767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5494 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5418 times:

Give it a few more years and I'm sure TAM will have hourly service to MCO and they'll HAVE to open the new terminal  

User currently offlineClipper136 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 318 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5252 times:

The new South Terminal is starting to rear its head again in MCO. GOAA is pushing a 2 prong approach to building it. First is the Inter-modal Terminal that will begin construction next year. The Inter-modal Terminal is a definite Go with parts of the project having already gone out for bidding. It will consist of a Rail station with Intercity rail (All Aboard Florida), Commuter Rail (Sunrail) and possibly Light rail or a Maglev train on a local run (i.e. Florida Mall, Convention Center, International Drive); a bus station (Lynx local service to South Orange and Osceola County) and a multi story parking garage. The parking garage will service Inter-modal Terminal and the new South Terminal.

The Airport is at the point that they will have to make a decision soon on the South Terminal....which the first phase will be a 16 gate international terminal. The North Terminals maximum throughput capacity is 45 million passengers per year. The airport is roughly at 36 million now. Total passenger growth has been flat ( domestic down slightly, international up strongly) At 40 million passengers the North Terminal will start to effect "Customer Service Satisfaction" and have a diminishing rate of return. The balancing question is ....as growth returns...forecasting when we will hit the 40 million mark, and when to begin construction so that it is complete just before you hit the mark that you will need it.



Quoting mcoatc (Reply 1):
The airport still has a fair amount of open gate space.

Although true, the load factor and average size of aircraft have been on the increase. Although airlines have cut back on leased gates, the passengers numbers have not followed suit. Also the greatest demand right now is the international gates (FIS). International growth has been strong, but we have run short on FIS capacity and Gates especially when majority of the International widebodies all want to arrive and depart in a relatively short time span.

I think that 2013.... with an improving economy...the expansion of WDW (Fantasy Land), Animal Kingdom (Avatar Land), Universal (Harry Potter expansion and Transformers), Sea World and Lego land expanding..add to that the opening of the VA Hospital in Medical City....passenger numbers will be on the rise.

Quoting xjramper (Reply 2):
there just isn't much point to build an international terminal when the FIS/CBP facilities that exist today work just fine

See Above (when 2 wide-body aircraft have to sit and wait 60-90 minutes to deplane because the FIS is full.....you have a problem. International growth has been a very bright spot for MCO.

Quoting xjramper (Reply 2):
This is partly the reason why DL scaled MCO back so far and downgauged a lot of aircraft (ie 777s, MD11s, 764s, and more recently 763s) to the 757 variants and 737s

BTW the size of the equipment DL operates has little to do with the numbers of passengers DL carries to MCO over ATL where those WB operated.. Point to point service may have been scaled way back but DL has made up the difference by operating those 757s and 737s on 16-18 daily ATL flights. Those WB better served DL on the tatl and tpac they now operate.

MCO is in talks with several international airlines for new or increased serve. Nothing concrete yet outside of service increases, some seasonal, of airlines already operating (JJ, AV, EI, CM, TA, BA, AC and WS)

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 1):
After the runway opens, something else will undoubtedly close. I've heard there are 3 years of projects lined up, dependent upon funding

There is always a list of airfield projects to tackle. We have been fairly constant with taxiway re-hab for the past 3 years. Now there are a few runway rehab projects that are on the horizon so you are probably right.  


User currently offlinemcogator From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5107 times:

The DL gates are always extremely crowded in the morning rush, and the afternoon rush. Since I believe that FL already moved, I wish DL would take a couple of those empty gates.

User currently offlinexjramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2460 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5060 times:

Quoting Clipper136 (Reply 4):
BTW the size of the equipment DL operates has little to do with the numbers of passengers DL carries to MCO over ATL where those WB operated.. Point to point service may have been scaled way back but DL has made up the difference by operating those 757s and 737s on 16-18 daily ATL flights. Those WB better served DL on the tatl and tpac they now operate.

At the peak of DL's reign in MCO, the carrier operated from gates 60-99. I cannot find any information or timetables from pre-1996, but from MCO-ATL alone they had 15-17 flights daily to ATL, none of which were narrow bodies during the weekdays (weekends saw 757s and 72S). L-10-11s, MD-11s, 777s, 764s, 763s were the only aircraft flying. I vividly remember watching those widebodies on depart on the hour to ATL. Today DL operates mainly 70-79, and depending on the time of day also uses some gates in the 80s.

As I stated and you confirmed without realizing it in the above quoted text, the wide bodies (while the L-10-11s and MD-11s were phased out) have been allocated to markets that will make them money. Enplanements are way down, but it shows that money is not to be made in MCO, which is why they allocated the larger aircraft to alternate, more yielding routes.

As a side note, I did not realize it was that bad at the FIS/CBP arrivals area. I arrived on a BA flight 2.5 years ago right behind a VS777 and another BA747. We didn't have to wait to deplane, and while it took us almost an hour to get out of FIS area, it wasn't nearly as bad as LHR/ICN/HKGs arrival waits. And yes, when we arrived into MCO it was split evenly as far as I could tell. So either the customs officials were extremely quick or it was just a one off fluke.

Either way, I would like to see MCO expand. That was my home airport for about 5 years. Nothing like the TSA checkpoint there, especially between 15-1800 heading towards the DL/FL gates.



Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4762 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Thread starter):
Is this STILL on hold?......if so why? There has been a big uptick in intl flights recently.

Come on now, you know who to contact for those questions...

There hasn't really been an uptick in international flights other than some temp charter ones like LAN in January. The uptick was last year and I thought maybe they would bump up the terminal.

If there are it will be out of S. America, not Europe due the Euro value dropping closer to the dollar, where flights to USA won't be as cheap for Euro tourists.

Of course you know the terminal was delayed due to 9/11. It got pushed off to the earliest ground breaking around 2020.

What is being done however in the meantime (at least when I was still at MCO) was to make a couple of the ex Air Tran gates into International gates and somehow get people from the 90s wing down to Customs. On busy days the ex Air Tran gates were being used by Virgin - once they unloaded, they would tow their plane to a 90s gate to load pax so they could free up an 80s gate for the next flight. Customs does need to be expanded but a lot of the problem is that CBP has been understaffed and would be a nightmare between 5p-6:30p back when AF was still here as they arrived at same time as TAM, LH, a couple VS and sometimes the second BA flight - you could have 2000 pax waiting in immigration lines, where maybe there were only 12 lines open.

Quoting 727LOVER (Thread starter):

With WN/FL consolidation, is there an opening for NK? Seems like a perfect market for them to expand greatly including TATL. Would there be around 6 or 7 gates available to them?



And isn't Diz about to open some new big thing?





The west runways seem to have been closed a lot recently, my understanding is for taxiway stuff, unusually long periods, why?

Any new INTL carriers on the way?

NK is expanding. They are adding flights to IAH, recently added some to DFW and a few places up north. Frontier has really been expanding too with a lot of new destinations that SWA cut from TRS. With Frontier getting rid of the E190s, they will all be done with A319s

They are opening an expanded Fantasy Land. I don't see a major rush of new service like they would if they opened a whole new theme park like they did back in 1995 with Animal Kingdom. Some of the more hardcore Disney fanatics will check out the new fantasy land right away but its not enough to draw additional flights.

Sea World is also going through a major expansion with a new section in Discovery Cove, new Antarctica exhibit and Turtle Trek. Lego Land opened a couple years back but that didn't really change MCO traffic much

MCOATC answered the runway question.

Let me ask MCOATC this question. Since Runway 18L doesn't have ILS and Runway 18R does and is closed - Runway 36R has ILS but 36L doesn't - does that mean in low visibility conditions if winds are relatively light that the 35s and 36s will be the prefered runway even if there is a south wind? I thought I read in a recent NOTAM that 17R ILS is out of service too - which would leave MCO down to one runway if the winds are out of the south in IFR conditions.

New international carriers - LAN has those charter flights again this Jan to Santiago Chile once or twice a week. GOL will be flying from Brazil with a stop at Santo Domingo SDQ, thought I read it was going to daily. Aer Lingus recently went to 3 X weekly, of course you know about TAM adding RIO back in Oct. Nothing expected from Europe.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8801 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4492 times:
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Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 7):
New international carriers - LAN has those charter flights again this Jan to Santiago Chile once or twice a week.

LA508/LA509 operate as seasonal flights during January and February.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 7):
of course you know about TAM adding RIO back in Oct.

It's interesting to note TAM's growth at MCO. TAM initially launched one daily non-stop service between GRU and MCO. Now TAM operates GRU-MCO 2x daily (A332) and GIG-MCO daily (A332).


User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3222 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4365 times:

While on this subject what is the contruction on right next to the shuttle as I arrive in from gate 80?

mco

Click on image for bigger picture.
It appears to be another tramway but does not seem to lead anywhere?



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlinemcoatc From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 194 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4308 times:

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 9):
It appears to be another tramway but does not seem to lead anywhere?

This is the tram bridge for the future international terminal to the south. I believe money existed for it years ago and, at that time, the new terminal seemed imminent.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 7):
Let me ask MCOATC this question. Since Runway 18L doesn't have ILS and Runway 18R does and is closed - Runway 36R has ILS but 36L doesn't - does that mean in low visibility conditions if winds are relatively light that the 35s and 36s will be the prefered runway even if there is a south wind? I thought I read in a recent NOTAM that 17R ILS is out of service too - which would leave MCO down to one runway if the winds are out of the south in IFR conditions.

Luckily, this time of year usually dictates a north operation.....of course this is the time of the year that also involves foggy mornings. We're actually operating with a slight tailwind on a north op as I write this, for much the exact reason you mention. It's also easier with the B1/B2 closure, in that west ramp departures don't have to cross 18L at Juliet or take the intersection.

The radar guys like the north op because it's easier for them too. Even when the 17R ILS is back, approach stagger requirements make 36R/35R a bit simpler than 17L/17R.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4246 times:

Quoting mcoatc (Reply 10):
Luckily, this time of year usually dictates a north operation.....of course this is the time of the year that also involves foggy mornings. We're actually operating with a slight tailwind on a north op as I write this, for much the exact reason you mention. It's also easier with the B1/B2 closure, in that west ramp departures don't have to cross 18L at Juliet or take the intersection.

The radar guys like the north op because it's easier for them too. Even when the 17R ILS is back, approach stagger requirements make 36R/35R a bit simpler than 17L/17R.

It sucks for us spotters though hahaha. I been looking forward to morning 18L operations since late November and it seems every morning there are north operations even though the winds are out of the south - but it did dawn on me that there is no ILS on 18L and like today there is a lower than desireable ceiling and since I can't see the planes as they depart over my place 4 miles north I am assuming the field is IFR.

I am curious if you have the stats of south operations since late October. It seems like after Hurricane Sandy passed by to the east of us we have been on an almost continuous north flow - all during NBAA late Oct/early Nov. I am thinking maybe we had 5-6 days since late Oct that were a south flow, which is very unusual as it usually is 50/50 this time of the year.


And before anyone asks why is there no ILS on 18L, it is because there is ILS on 18R. There was no point on putting ILS on both runways from the same direction since they are less than 2000 ft apart. FAA Standards dictate that 2 ILS approaches have to be a minimum of 4300 ft apart. Especially since ILS is a costly system. It has been taking forever to set up at ORL on Runway 25. Had they put ILS on Runway 36L and not on 36R, MCO would be a mess right now with only 2 useable runways in all these foggy mornings we have had lately.

Well I hope at least next weekend it is sunny with south winds in the morning so I can see 18L in use again.


User currently offlinephatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1353 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4094 times:

Will Airside 2 ever get their third wing to replace the current botanical garden in place? As I understand, a potential interference to a nearby ILS system shelved this project. Was there any work done to mitigate the impact to the ILS system?

User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6422 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4061 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 11):

Mostly north wind is typical for November across Florida



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3874 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 13):
Mostly north wind is typical for November across Florida

yeah but not like it has been, where runway useage has been continuous 35s and 36s at MCO. Since Late October Runway 17s and 18s have probably only been used 4-5 times where it lasted all day, never more than for 2 days straight. In most other years it is usually pretty 50/50 even where you get 4-5 days straight of north winds after a front but then it goes back to south for a few days


User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 928 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3698 times:

So what is going on with the old OH gates?? Does DL still use them for regional operations?


PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3639 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 15):
So what is going on with the old OH gates?? Does DL still use them for regional operations?

Nada

The only Delta regional ops are the occassional CRJ9 or E175 that goes to an actual gate.


User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 928 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3617 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 16):

Aww thanks for that.. That is alot of empty gate space isn't it?



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3154 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3521 times:

I figured some of you would find these pics of former MCO int'l ops interesting. I took them in the mid 90's.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu162/JDawgphoto/SCAN0007-2.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu162/JDawgphoto/SCAN0009-2.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu162/JDawgphoto/SCAN0008-2.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu162/JDawgphoto/SCAN0010-2.jpg



FLYi
User currently offlineClipper136 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 318 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3520 times:

DL (and FL when they were in the 90s gates) use the area as RON stands. The old OH ops office is now used by an airport contract company. The holdroom will soon become part of the up comming FIS renovations

User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6422 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3419 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 18):

What airline is the last one?



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3154 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3349 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 20):

What airline is the last one?

Leisure International Airways, which evolved from Air UK's charter subsidiary.



FLYi
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3188 times:

Quoting Clipper136 (Reply 19):
The old OH ops office is now used by an airport contract company.

Is that the ELS gate contractor office? I knew they were in Airside 4 somewhere

Quoting Clipper136 (Reply 19):
The holdroom will soon become part of the up comming FIS renovations

I am still trying to figure how they are going to bring pax down from the 90s gates to the FIS, if they do decide to convert 2 of the gates to International over there. The 90s wing, if lined up with the FIS would be behind the Immigration stations and would be near the FIS baggage claim where people would be coming down (I don't remember if that is claim #1 or 4). I know the hold room has been closed for a couple years, which was why people were being held on planes for up to 2 hours during peak periods when AF, LH, BA 2039, JJ and a couple VS would all arrive within the same hour. It seems like they would almost have to build on some sort of exterior hallway to the terminal that would bring the pax down maybe to the old hold room area?


User currently offlinewinGl3t From Brazil, joined Dec 2011, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3117 times:

Gol will start daily flights from GRU to MCO and from GIG to MIA next saturday (December 15th).
Both flights with 737-800 via SDQ.


User currently offlineglobalflyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 926 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3097 times:

I remember when SV served MCO. I was at a convention at the Renaissance by SeaWorld and the crew were staying there (I had no idea that SV served MCO so I was very curious at the time). I think that flight either stopped at IAD or JFK before heading to the KSA?


Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
25 flyjoe : Looking at the schedules on US in late Dec and into Jan, there are now 5 wide body flights, three 767s out of PHL and a 767 and A-332 from CLT.
26 NASCARAirforce : Another question for MCOATC: If the IFR conditions weren't too bad - ceiling at least 1,000 ft or so - The aircraft could line up with 18R ILS, then w
27 atct : Most aicraft flying into MCO are /Q and Id expect you could use the RNAV 18L. atct
28 Clipper136 : There will be 4 gates on the 90s wing ( 90, 92, 94 and 96) that will be converted to FIS swing gates. The hub, between gates 90 and 81, will be bumpe
29 NASCARAirforce : I would assume Avcon Inc Planners are also involved as they have done a lot of MCO terminal projects like the Jumbo Mode markings in the 80s wing. Th
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