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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard  
User currently offlinesmitty747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 35 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 38056 times:

Just released as breaking news on CNN. No info on aircraft type or location.
I'm not familiar with her, but best wishes for a good outcome.

102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemingocr83 From Costa Rica, joined Dec 2007, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 37645 times:

Seems to be a learjet..not found yet...


A380, A320, A319, 757-200, 737-800, 737-700, E190
User currently offlinegoosebayguy From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 372 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 37645 times:

Heres the story

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ger-plane-goes-missing-Mexico.html


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5943 posts, RR: 30
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 37650 times:
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Quoting smitty747 (Thread starter):
Just released as breaking news on CNN. No info on aircraft type or location.
I'm not familiar with her, but best wishes for a good outcome.


Learjet 25
N345MC
6 people on board total
Last contact was at 61.8 miles south of MTY
Took off from ADN, bound for Toluca at 03:40AM local

Sad thing. The area is pretty difficult to acess and if memory serves me right it can be pretty remote. What about the Emergency Beacon?

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/888926.html

[Edited 2012-12-09 12:19:03]

[Edited 2012-12-09 12:21:17]


MGGS
User currently offlineRubberJungle From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2010, 400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 37154 times:

Statement from Mexican transport ministry:

http://www.sct.gob.mx/uploads/media/Comunicado_003-Dic.pdf


User currently offlineogshelly From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 34784 times:

This is what I just read in the Universal, Mexican newspaper, sorry just Spanish:
http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/888926.html
A Lear Jet 65 miles after take off early this AM from Monterrey.
RIP and my condokences to the families of Jenny Rivera, and her crew.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5943 posts, RR: 30
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 34607 times:
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They found the plane. No word on the condition or if there are survivors, I assume not. It´s in a very remote, mountanious area. I know the region.


MGGS
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6942 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 33883 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 3):
N345MC

Oh wow, what a shock....I photographed this plane when it was at LUK a few years back....

I couldn't find anything productive on Flightaware for this plane....



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 6900 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 33582 times:

The Lear 25 was vintage. Made in 1969 cn46. Of course it could still fly safely if maintained - just an observation...

User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 33133 times:

N345MC is registered to:

1. Starwood Management LLC in Las Vegas according to www.faa.gov

2. Starwood Management LLC's Managing Member is Norma Gonzalez at 3540 W. Sahara Avenue, Las Vegas, NV 89102 - according to the Nevada Secretary of State at http://nvsos.gov/sosentitysearch/CorpSearch.aspx

3. The address of 3540 W. Sahara Avenue, Las Vegas, NV shows a company called "Private Jet Charter Flights Las Vegas" according to Google at www.privatejetcharterflightslasvegas.com

4. Don't know if this plane was on a Part 135 Certificate.

5. Starwood Management LLC is owned b y Rodatz Financial Group, Inc. at the same address with Suite 202. Rodatz Financial Group Inc., shows 18 planes with relationships at this location according to www.jetnet.com. (The Google Earth shows this address as a UPS store, but it could be wrong)

It will be interesting to find out if this was a real Part 135 charter, lease, Part 91 or Part 134 1/2 trip. Condolences to the families.

[Edited 2012-12-09 15:44:18]

[Edited 2012-12-09 15:46:26]

[Edited 2012-12-09 15:49:00]


"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5943 posts, RR: 30
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 30073 times:
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Plane found. No survivors. "Completely fragmented" according to sources. So sad. It is a strange accident, though, not saying antything sinister is involved, just that a Learjet just does not fall out of the sky like that.


MGGS
User currently offlineSR117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 29824 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):
Plane found. No survivors. "Completely fragmented" according to sources. So sad. It is a strange accident, though, not saying antything sinister is involved, just that a Learjet just does not fall out of the sky like that.

The footage on TV makes it look at this was a very high speed impact, and given the distance from the takeoff point, this seems very strange indeed. The wreckage reminds me of the PSA Bae 146 crash.

I wasn't a fan of the lady's music but she was quite popular, it's always very sad when you see footage of people being interviewed a few minutes before something tragic, they state how happy they are and seem in good spirits, and then fate takes everything away so suddenly.


User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 5997 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 29563 times:

Quoting SR117 (Reply 11):
very high speed impact, and given the distance from the takeoff point

The plane was 65 miles from departure. Not exactly just past takeoff point.

Either way, prayers to all involved.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineSR117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 29153 times:

Quoting as739x (Reply 12):
The plane was 65 miles from departure. Not exactly just past takeoff point.

Exactly... it was almost at cruise level ! Given the fact that there were apparently no emergency calls made before radar lost contact with the plane, this all seems quite strange.


User currently offlineCoachClass From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 28508 times:

Do these planes have black boxes?

User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1547 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 28184 times:

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 14):
Do these planes have black boxes?

The Lear 25 should have one.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlinetimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 27771 times:

Explosive decompression?

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6996 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 27604 times:

Saw this story. When I heard is was a Lear 25 first thing that came to my mind is a fairly old jet. Of course it could be flown safely but I feel like flying in a Jet that old can't be the best thing in the world for two reason that come to mind. One if it is part 135 its a smaller company that does not have newer planes, and maybe a company that is not making much money. 2nd someone wanted to have a private jet but did not have the money for a newer one. I feel like if you are going to fly around in a Lear 25 you might as well just fly first class commercial and charter when you need it or purchase a smaller cheaper jet or even turbo prop.

Hopefully this aircraft has a black box. I would imagine it will have a data recorder yes?
Always horrible to hear about any fatal incident.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineViajero From Mexico, joined Aug 2008, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 27313 times:
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RIP Jenni. Condolences to Don Pedro and the rest of the Rivera family.

Quoting SR117 (Reply 13):
Exactly... it was almost at cruise level ! Given the fact that there were apparently no emergency calls made before radar lost contact with the plane, this all seems quite strange.

Very strange indeed. In any event, it makes one wonder...


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5943 posts, RR: 30
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 27225 times:
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http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/888971.html

According to the above the Captain was 78 years old. Is that possible?



MGGS
User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 5997 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 26952 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
According to the above the Captain was 78 years old. Is that possible?

Yes. Only age limit is for Part 121, which this was not.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineakelley728 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2160 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 26253 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
According to the above the Captain was 78 years old. Is that possible?
Quoting as739x (Reply 20):
Yes. Only age limit is for Part 121, which this was not.

Heart attack, stroke, or other major medical issue? If the pilot slumped over the control yoke they could have gone into a steep dive and with the high Gs the co-pilot might have been pinned in his chair or went unconscious. Would explain the high-speed impact.


User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 672 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 25299 times:

Quoting BP1 (Reply 9):
It will be interesting to find out if this was a real Part 135 charter, lease, Part 91 or Part 134 1/2 trip.
Quoting as739x (Reply 20):
Only age limit is for Part 121, which this was not.

What is Part 135, Part 91, Part 134 1/2, Part 121?


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6996 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 25153 times:

Quoting questions (Reply 22):

Those are the different types of operations, and how they are classified in 14 CFR, or Chapter 14 of the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations.

Part 121 is scheduled air carrier, part 135 is a charter/commuter on demand air taxis, part 91 is private general aviation. It's just the way the different regulations are in U.S. federal law. This aircraft is not an airline so part 121 regulations do not apply. Part 121 is the only type of flying that has an age limit. So as long as the pilot can pass a medical he or she can continue to fly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Aviation_Regulations

[Edited 2012-12-09 23:31:25]


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 672 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 25065 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 23):

Thanks flymia.


25 AR385 : I´ve come across a few private pics of the crash site. Out of respect, I won´t post them here, but if anybody is interested, PM me. The degree of de
26 sshd : Hello, Any weather report available?
27 tb727 : It should have a CVR at least.
28 tjwgrr : Reminds me of the the Payne Stewart Lear 35 accident back in 1999.
29 art : Very sad. May all the victims RIP. Would the aircraft not break up before the level of G required to disable the co-pilot was reached? I recall that.
30 Post contains images Gulfstream650 : Interesting:
31 Post contains images connies4ever : No distress message, high velocity impact. Certainly crossed my mind. RIP all those on board.
32 tdscanuck : A steep dive usually doesn't generate those kinds of G's right away...it's pullup or bank that gets you. But Lears have coupled controls, right? The
33 brilondon : I don't believe that there was a second pilot on board, if there was only 1 pilot, would they be allowed to fly? This has no similarity to the Payne
34 26point2 : If the photo is legit then I would surmise a dodgy operation. VFR only.....in a jet? And why is the Temporary Cert from 1981? Looks like another bootl
35 Triple7X : Agree, is pretty fishy how is the cert from 1981 and VFR only in a jet is well.......*speechless* In addition, a plane should not just fall out of th
36 audidudi : I think that the date on the bottom left corner says 10/20/2010; that is, if that is a date on the document, however it could be something else. Can
37 Post contains images Triple7X : Here you go That looks like the date of issuance......[Edited 2012-12-10 07:29:25]
38 Bralo20 : The certificate is from 2010 but it also states that it's not valid for the carriage of people...
39 26point2 : You might be right about the lower left box date but still...2010? I believe FAA temps are only valid for 120 days after issuance. And why would a guy
40 aerodog : I'm not so sure. In the Payne Stewart accident and at least one other LJ accident, the probable cause was the crew forgot to turn on the bleed air. I
41 audidudi : Nevertheless, the pilot was going to be 79 years old next month, and we don't know when he had his last physical exam. Could he have had a heart attac
42 Triple7X : There is a co pilot at the flight deck and if it ws really a heart attack, the co pilot should be able to react and at least call the ATC to report i
43 JBirdAV8r : Not in a Learjet. It's been a long time since my CFIing days but I believe that's the restriction that's automatically granted when a foreign nationa
44 Post contains links tb727 : No, 2 are required. The early Lears can be a little bit of a handful, when designed, Bill's original intent was to only have 1 pilot flying when the
45 MountainFlyer : It's not. It's from 2010 as has been pointed out. It's entirely possible he was still carrying the temp just because he hadn't taken it out of his wa
46 Triple7X : I think you might had missed something, in front of the HS-125 Private Pilot Privileges VFR Only, there was a phase that read LR-JET VFR Only;[Edited
47 bueb0g : There were 2 pilots on board.
48 brilondon : If that were the case in this incident, would the two crew members be incapacitated after that short a time in the air reports stated that it was onl
49 AR385 : Mexico does not allow night VFR.
50 MountainFlyer : I was referring to the FAA's online database, which is worded slightly different with no apparent VFR restriction for the Lear. Also, there is no men
51 Post contains links AR385 : http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/889034.html According to the above, initial investigation results show the plane descended abruptly from 35,000ft
52 capri : It's sad to know these tragics can happen if really were preventable, thoughts with their families. Another question, how apt is the Mexican investiga
53 Post contains links AR385 : Pictures here. http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/889025.html
54 type-rated : The NTSB will be involved because it was an American made aircraft.
55 Mir : Might have something to do with the fact that the pilot had a foreign license as well. Which it does. The FAA's database is not perfect - for a while
56 Post contains images golftango : Sad final picture of Jenni and her crew.
57 Mir : To clarify, I believe you mean her entourage, not the crew of the airplane. -Mir
58 tdscanuck : I believe that's only true if the Mexican authorities invite them. The FAA is involved as the issuer of the type certificate and, normally, Lear and
59 Post contains links sshd : This plane had an accident 7 years ago: http://www.initialfix.com/reference/...nt/2005/20050803X01150/N345MC.html I dont want to mean anything with th
60 CapEd388 : Quick question Would the fact that it is a US owned and registered aircraft give the FAA or NTSB some authority? How does that come into play?
61 Post contains links type-rated : Every air disaster involving an American made airline seems to be always investigated by the NTSB, in fact the NTSB is already on this one. Does the M
62 santi319 : She was also American, born and raised, her spanish wasn't even that good. Kind of like Selena. She has also been accused of drug-related stuff in th
63 texan : Yes, but under ICAO Annex 13, the State of Registry of the aircraft gets to appoint an accredited representative if it would like. And foreign govern
64 type-rated : Thanks for settling that. It makes sense. Now waiting for some anuttter to say "Prove it!".....
65 F9animal : Have they released both pilots names yet? The last picture taken has 5 people in it. First reports said there were a total of 6 on the plane. If that
66 Triple7X : Yes there was a list of passengers on board: Pilot-Miguel Perez Soto Co-Pilot-Alejandro Torres Jenni Rivera Mario Macias (attorney) Jorge Sanchez (st
67 Post contains links Viajero : As'expected, the U.S. authorities will assist with the investigation per the SCT. "The FAA and NTSB of United States will assist with the investigatio
68 DashTrash : I would agree with that, and in all phases of flight. Most airplanes you can trim to fly hands off. I've never gotten a Lear to do that. Also, the au
69 Triple7X : That is why I am wondering if both pilots have any prior experience flying LR-JET, or how many hours did each of the pilot clocked in a LR-JET before
70 capri : I read somewhere that Learjet is susceptible of its pilots getting hypoxia, do you think could have happened especially taking off from high altitude
71 brilondon : I can't see that as being relevant.
72 JBirdAV8r : What Mir means (and he's right) is that When the FAA grants a "reciprocal license" it doesn't actually subject the applicant to an FAA checkride. The
73 Post contains links Dreadnought : http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/...ght/story?id=17928567#.UMd9EOTLTY8
74 NASCARAirforce : CNN contacted me wanting a picture of the plane from airport-data, but they show N98FT a Hawker 700. I had to turn them down on the photo request bec
75 26point2 : News just released make it sound like a Mach-tuck episode? Sudden and extreme dive from 28,000'. Older Lears were known to have trouble with Mach-tuck
76 Post contains links flymia : Seems like a shady outfit, not something I would ever hire to do any flying. http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/11/us/mex...ane-ownership/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
77 PSAJet17 : The local (PHX) ABC station was reporting on this accident during their 11am news on Monday and had a story from ABC News. During the ABC clip they h
78 AR385 : That. Or, the person who chartered the jet, knows squat about aviation. Even so, the Captain was 78 (79 next month) and the FO was very very young. S
79 flymia : That is not a good combo for any complex aircraft. Nuts. Will be interesting to see what went wrong if they will ever be able to figure it out.
80 AR385 : I´ve been told that the biggest piece of wreckage found is the size of a melon. They have not found any type of recorder yet. I don´t really know h
81 Triple7X : Still wondering how many hours did both pilots clocked in a lear before the accident...
82 Post contains links mila : Just found this picture which seams like the captain and maybe the co-pilot http://enlineadirecta.info/noticias/?option=view&article=197014
83 tb727 : Could be but that is not a Lear cockpit.
84 AR385 : The FO was 22 years old.
85 Post contains links mila : Also found this and translated via google I read that it seams like the pilots had been flying for 19 hours prior the crash! Maybe someone that speaks
86 leftyboarder : Indeed, that is what the article says. Sad either way... May they all R.I.P.
87 DashTrash : There is no FDR, and $20 says the CVR didn't work.
88 AR385 : Don´t know if that´s the Captain. But that is the FO.
89 tb727 : Yeah, I bet that is the case.
90 DashTrash : Another $20 says the bleeds were off and the caution / warning system breaker was pulled.
91 tb727 : That could be true but I don't know if they were in the air long enough to have passed out from hypoxia, were they?
92 Triple7X : If it is true that bleed air was not turn on, and the warning sounded, the pilot/co-pilot should have checked before pulling the warning system break
93 tb727 : Unfortunately if they pulled the breaker to keep the overspeed from sounding, they wouldn't have gotten the cabin altitude warning. Pretty dumb thing
94 DashTrash : I've seen more than one Lear guy hit 10K, accelerate to 306, get the overspeed and pull the breaker. That kills the cabin altitude warning also. If y
95 7BOEING7 : Useful conciousness at FL280 is 2-3 minutes--since the clock started ticking on them at about 15,000 ft by the time they hit FL280 they would have be
96 26point2 : The cockpit picture is an IA 1124 Westwind or IA 1125 Astra...nearly the same cockpit. Not a Learjet.
97 zeke : That looks like a normal FAA validation of a foreign licence, it would be enough for someone to use to get the type rating on and take it back to the
98 tb727 : Yeah, me too. Not smart, I hated flying that airplane. Glad I've been out of it for a long time, haven't missed it one bit. There is no advantage or
99 AR385 : The plane arrived into Mexican territory on August the 31st. It was given to Ms. Rivera to use for free for the next six months as a "testing" period
100 Post contains links flyingturtle : Just two days ago I've read on the Wikipedia about Alaska Airlines flight 261... the MD-83 there had a THS jackscrew failure, and poor maintenance pr
101 spacecadet : Extremely unlikely there is any similarity or common cause between these two accidents. The circumstances were completely different. Alaska 261 took
102 rfields5421 : I've seen a few similar arrangements with older Lears. The planes really have no value for resale in the US as passenger carriers, and few folks woul
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