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Learjet Crash In Mexico: Singer Jenni Rivera Aboard  
User currently offlinesmitty747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 36 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 38606 times:

Just released as breaking news on CNN. No info on aircraft type or location.
I'm not familiar with her, but best wishes for a good outcome.

102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemingocr83 From Costa Rica, joined Dec 2007, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 38195 times:

Seems to be a learjet..not found yet...


A380, A321, A320, A319, 757-200, 737-800WL, 737-700WL, E190
User currently offlinegoosebayguy From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 406 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 38195 times:

Heres the story

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ger-plane-goes-missing-Mexico.html


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6357 posts, RR: 31
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 38200 times:
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Quoting smitty747 (Thread starter):
Just released as breaking news on CNN. No info on aircraft type or location.
I'm not familiar with her, but best wishes for a good outcome.


Learjet 25
N345MC
6 people on board total
Last contact was at 61.8 miles south of MTY
Took off from ADN, bound for Toluca at 03:40AM local

Sad thing. The area is pretty difficult to acess and if memory serves me right it can be pretty remote. What about the Emergency Beacon?

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/888926.html

[Edited 2012-12-09 12:19:03]

[Edited 2012-12-09 12:21:17]

User currently offlineRubberJungle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 37704 times:

Statement from Mexican transport ministry:

http://www.sct.gob.mx/uploads/media/Comunicado_003-Dic.pdf


User currently offlineogshelly From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 35334 times:

This is what I just read in the Universal, Mexican newspaper, sorry just Spanish:
http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/888926.html
A Lear Jet 65 miles after take off early this AM from Monterrey.
RIP and my condokences to the families of Jenny Rivera, and her crew.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6357 posts, RR: 31
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 35157 times:
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They found the plane. No word on the condition or if there are survivors, I assume not. It´s in a very remote, mountanious area. I know the region.

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7752 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 34433 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 3):
N345MC

Oh wow, what a shock....I photographed this plane when it was at LUK a few years back....

I couldn't find anything productive on Flightaware for this plane....



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7261 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 34132 times:

The Lear 25 was vintage. Made in 1969 cn46. Of course it could still fly safely if maintained - just an observation...

User currently offlineBP1 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 33683 times:

N345MC is registered to:

1. Starwood Management LLC in Las Vegas according to www.faa.gov

2. Starwood Management LLC's Managing Member is Norma Gonzalez at 3540 W. Sahara Avenue, Las Vegas, NV 89102 - according to the Nevada Secretary of State at http://nvsos.gov/sosentitysearch/CorpSearch.aspx

3. The address of 3540 W. Sahara Avenue, Las Vegas, NV shows a company called "Private Jet Charter Flights Las Vegas" according to Google at www.privatejetcharterflightslasvegas.com

4. Don't know if this plane was on a Part 135 Certificate.

5. Starwood Management LLC is owned b y Rodatz Financial Group, Inc. at the same address with Suite 202. Rodatz Financial Group Inc., shows 18 planes with relationships at this location according to www.jetnet.com. (The Google Earth shows this address as a UPS store, but it could be wrong)

It will be interesting to find out if this was a real Part 135 charter, lease, Part 91 or Part 134 1/2 trip. Condolences to the families.

[Edited 2012-12-09 15:44:18]

[Edited 2012-12-09 15:46:26]

[Edited 2012-12-09 15:49:00]


"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6357 posts, RR: 31
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 30623 times:
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Plane found. No survivors. "Completely fragmented" according to sources. So sad. It is a strange accident, though, not saying antything sinister is involved, just that a Learjet just does not fall out of the sky like that.

User currently offlineSR117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 799 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 30374 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):
Plane found. No survivors. "Completely fragmented" according to sources. So sad. It is a strange accident, though, not saying antything sinister is involved, just that a Learjet just does not fall out of the sky like that.

The footage on TV makes it look at this was a very high speed impact, and given the distance from the takeoff point, this seems very strange indeed. The wreckage reminds me of the PSA Bae 146 crash.

I wasn't a fan of the lady's music but she was quite popular, it's always very sad when you see footage of people being interviewed a few minutes before something tragic, they state how happy they are and seem in good spirits, and then fate takes everything away so suddenly.


User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6161 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 30113 times:

Quoting SR117 (Reply 11):
very high speed impact, and given the distance from the takeoff point

The plane was 65 miles from departure. Not exactly just past takeoff point.

Either way, prayers to all involved.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineSR117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 799 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 29703 times:

Quoting as739x (Reply 12):
The plane was 65 miles from departure. Not exactly just past takeoff point.

Exactly... it was almost at cruise level ! Given the fact that there were apparently no emergency calls made before radar lost contact with the plane, this all seems quite strange.


User currently offlineCoachClass From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 29058 times:

Do these planes have black boxes?

User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1613 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 28734 times:

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 14):
Do these planes have black boxes?

The Lear 25 should have one.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlinetimpdx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 572 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 28321 times:

Explosive decompression?

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7213 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 28154 times:

Saw this story. When I heard is was a Lear 25 first thing that came to my mind is a fairly old jet. Of course it could be flown safely but I feel like flying in a Jet that old can't be the best thing in the world for two reason that come to mind. One if it is part 135 its a smaller company that does not have newer planes, and maybe a company that is not making much money. 2nd someone wanted to have a private jet but did not have the money for a newer one. I feel like if you are going to fly around in a Lear 25 you might as well just fly first class commercial and charter when you need it or purchase a smaller cheaper jet or even turbo prop.

Hopefully this aircraft has a black box. I would imagine it will have a data recorder yes?
Always horrible to hear about any fatal incident.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineViajero From Mexico, joined Aug 2008, 134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 27863 times:
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RIP Jenni. Condolences to Don Pedro and the rest of the Rivera family.

Quoting SR117 (Reply 13):
Exactly... it was almost at cruise level ! Given the fact that there were apparently no emergency calls made before radar lost contact with the plane, this all seems quite strange.

Very strange indeed. In any event, it makes one wonder...


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6357 posts, RR: 31
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 27775 times:
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http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/888971.html

According to the above the Captain was 78 years old. Is that possible?


User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6161 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 27502 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
According to the above the Captain was 78 years old. Is that possible?

Yes. Only age limit is for Part 121, which this was not.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineakelley728 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2193 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 26803 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
According to the above the Captain was 78 years old. Is that possible?
Quoting as739x (Reply 20):
Yes. Only age limit is for Part 121, which this was not.

Heart attack, stroke, or other major medical issue? If the pilot slumped over the control yoke they could have gone into a steep dive and with the high Gs the co-pilot might have been pinned in his chair or went unconscious. Would explain the high-speed impact.


User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 25849 times:

Quoting BP1 (Reply 9):
It will be interesting to find out if this was a real Part 135 charter, lease, Part 91 or Part 134 1/2 trip.
Quoting as739x (Reply 20):
Only age limit is for Part 121, which this was not.

What is Part 135, Part 91, Part 134 1/2, Part 121?


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7213 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 25703 times:

Quoting questions (Reply 22):

Those are the different types of operations, and how they are classified in 14 CFR, or Chapter 14 of the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations.

Part 121 is scheduled air carrier, part 135 is a charter/commuter on demand air taxis, part 91 is private general aviation. It's just the way the different regulations are in U.S. federal law. This aircraft is not an airline so part 121 regulations do not apply. Part 121 is the only type of flying that has an age limit. So as long as the pilot can pass a medical he or she can continue to fly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Aviation_Regulations

[Edited 2012-12-09 23:31:25]


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 25615 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 23):

Thanks flymia.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6357 posts, RR: 31
Reply 25, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 27316 times:
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I´ve come across a few private pics of the crash site. Out of respect, I won´t post them here, but if anybody is interested, PM me. The degree of destruction, is amazing.

User currently offlinesshd From Spain, joined May 2011, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 26370 times:

Hello,

Any weather report available?


User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1613 posts, RR: 9
Reply 27, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 23907 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 17):
Hopefully this aircraft has a black box. I would imagine it will have a data recorder yes?

It should have a CVR at least.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlinetjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2460 posts, RR: 2
Reply 28, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 22950 times:

Quoting timpdx (Reply 16):
Explosive decompression?

Reminds me of the the Payne Stewart Lear 35 accident back in 1999.



Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 29, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 22595 times:

Very sad. May all the victims RIP.

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 21):
If the pilot slumped over the control yoke they could have gone into a steep dive and with the high Gs the co-pilot might have been pinned in his chair or went unconscious.

Would the aircraft not break up before the level of G required to disable the co-pilot was reached?

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 28):
Reminds me of the the Payne Stewart Lear 35 accident back in 1999.

I recall that. I don't think the pilot contacted ATC before losing consciousness.


User currently offlineGulfstream650 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 22811 times:

Interesting:




I don't proclaim to be the best pilot in the world but I'm safe
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 31, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 22532 times:

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 28):
Quoting timpdx (Reply 16):
Explosive decompression?

Reminds me of the the Payne Stewart Lear 35 accident back in 1999.

No distress message, high velocity impact. Certainly crossed my mind.

   RIP all those on board.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 32, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 22175 times:

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 21):
If the pilot slumped over the control yoke they could have gone into a steep dive and with the high Gs the co-pilot might have been pinned in his chair or went unconscious.

A steep dive usually doesn't generate those kinds of G's right away...it's pullup or bank that gets you. But Lears have coupled controls, right? The co-pilot should have been able to manhandle the controls enough to get the pilot off.

Quoting art (Reply 29):
Would the aircraft not break up before the level of G required to disable the co-pilot was reached?

Depends on the loading. Civil jets are rated to 2.5g at MTOW but they have (at least) a 50% safety margin, so they can reasonably be expected to reach 3.75g at MTOW. If they're below MTOW you get a lot of relief...you could easily pull 7g+ if the plane wasn't that heavily loaded.

Tom.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4300 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21807 times:

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 21):
Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
According to the above the Captain was 78 years old. Is that possible?
Quoting as739x (Reply 20):
Yes. Only age limit is for Part 121, which this was not.

Heart attack, stroke, or other major medical issue? If the pilot slumped over the control yoke they could have gone into a steep dive and with the high Gs the co-pilot might have been pinned in his chair or went unconscious. Would explain the high-speed impact.

I don't believe that there was a second pilot on board, if there was only 1 pilot, would they be allowed to fly?

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 31):
Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 28):
Quoting timpdx (Reply 16):

Explosive decompression?

Reminds me of the the Payne Stewart Lear 35 accident back in 1999.

No distress message, high velocity impact. Certainly crossed my mind.

This has no similarity to the Payne Stewart incident, except that it was a private business jet.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 837 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21866 times:

If the photo is legit then I would surmise a dodgy operation. VFR only.....in a jet? And why is the Temporary Cert from 1981? Looks like another bootleg jet charter operator.

Remember the Platinum Jet CL-600 crash at KTEB? Some of those guys are in jail now.


User currently offlineTriple7X From Singapore, joined Dec 2012, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21522 times:

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 34):

Agree, is pretty fishy how is the cert from 1981 and VFR only in a jet is well.......*speechless*


In addition, a plane should not just fall out of the skies without emergency call etc, all of this sounds pretty fishy. Now I am wondering if the NTSB will step in to investigate this accident as Learjet is more a less a US based aviation company.

[Edited 2012-12-10 07:20:57]


[Edited 2012-12-10 07:25:07]


Just a 16 year old who loves aviation :)
User currently offlineaudidudi From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21468 times:

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 34):

I think that the date on the bottom left corner says 10/20/2010; that is, if that is a date on the document, however it could be something else. Can anyone come up with another "Temporary Airman Certificate" which shows what's in that space?


User currently offlineTriple7X From Singapore, joined Dec 2012, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21523 times:

Quoting audidudi (Reply 36):
Temporary Airman Certificate

Here you go

Temporary Airman Certificate


That looks like the date of issuance......

[Edited 2012-12-10 07:29:25]


Just a 16 year old who loves aviation :)
User currently offlineBralo20 From Belgium, joined May 2008, 625 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 21157 times:

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 34):
If the photo is legit then I would surmise a dodgy operation. VFR only.....in a jet? And why is the Temporary Cert from 1981? Looks like another bootleg jet charter operator.

Remember the Platinum Jet CL-600 crash at KTEB? Some of those guys are in jail now.

The certificate is from 2010 but it also states that it's not valid for the carriage of people...


User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 837 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 21083 times:

You might be right about the lower left box date but still...2010? I believe FAA temps are only valid for 120 days after issuance. And why would a guy get his temp laminated? To make it "last longer"?

Also, the restriction on his Commercial License that's "Not valid for carrying person or property for hire..". Isn't that the whole point of a commercial license? Why this restriction? Perhaps something to do with the VFR only endorsement.


User currently offlineaerodog From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 20963 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 33):
This has no similarity to the Payne Stewart incident, except that it was a private business jet.


I'm not so sure.

In the Payne Stewart accident and at least one other LJ accident, the probable cause was the crew forgot to turn on the bleed air.

In both of these accidents, the autopilot was engaged so the aircraft continued to fly for quite some distance.

Assuming the autopilot was not engaged or even inop, it's a possible cause.


User currently offlineaudidudi From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 20815 times:

Nevertheless, the pilot was going to be 79 years old next month, and we don't know when he had his last physical exam. Could he have had a heart attack or something else whereby he became incapacitated?

User currently offlineTriple7X From Singapore, joined Dec 2012, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 20458 times:

Quoting audidudi (Reply 41):

There is a co pilot at the flight deck and if it ws really a heart attack, the co pilot should be able to react and at least call the ATC to report in with the situation, although according to wikipedia, the Learjet 25 is considered a pretty challenging aircraft to fly in comparison with most general aviation aircraft and more modern light jets. In addition, the workload of pilots are also considered pretty high as compared to more modern light jets.

As such, I am wondering if one or both of the pilots has any prior experience/lots of experience in flying LJ before......

[Edited 2012-12-10 08:07:31]


Just a 16 year old who loves aviation :)
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 43, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 20420 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 33):

I don't believe that there was a second pilot on board, if there was only 1 pilot, would they be allowed to fly?

Not in a Learjet.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 39):
Also, the restriction on his Commercial License that's "Not valid for carrying person or property for hire..". Isn't that the whole point of a commercial license? Why this restriction? Perhaps something to do with the VFR only endorsement.

It's been a long time since my CFIing days but I believe that's the restriction that's automatically granted when a foreign national with a foreign pilot certificate is granted an FAA "reciprocal" pilot certificate. It should also say something like "Valid only with Mexico pilot license # _______." It doesn't necessarily mean the certificate holder was ineligible to fly the airplane.



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1613 posts, RR: 9
Reply 44, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 20394 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 33):
I don't believe that there was a second pilot on board, if there was only 1 pilot, would they be allowed to fly?

No, 2 are required. The early Lears can be a little bit of a handful, when designed, Bill's original intent was to only have 1 pilot flying when the 23 came out.

Given his age and the fact that he was VFR only, at night, maybe there was some sort of spatial disorientation involved? The 20 series are showing their age, if kept up they can do pretty well. So far this doesn't look like it's going to be an aircraft that was coming from a company that would be like that.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 32):
A steep dive usually doesn't generate those kinds of G's right away...it's pullup or bank that gets you. But Lears have coupled controls, right? The co-pilot should have been able to manhandle the controls enough to get the pilot off.

Yes the Lear has coupled controls. It's all cables in that thing. I've been in a situation where we had the trim go bad and it took every bit of muscle to hold the pitch until we got it trimmed back up with the secondary. A quick killer in the Lear can be runaway pitch trim if you aren't ahead of the game.

This accident kind of compares to one that killed one of the highest time Lear pilots in the world a few years back. http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...ef.aspx?ev_id=20011220X02424&key=1

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 32):
Depends on the loading. Civil jets are rated to 2.5g at MTOW but they have (at least) a 50% safety margin, so they can reasonably be expected to reach 3.75g at MTOW. If they're below MTOW you get a lot of relief...you could easily pull 7g+ if the plane wasn't that heavily loaded.

It is always boasted that the Lear has 7 spars in the wing and that it is over built. In actuality only 2 of the spars go from tip tank to tip tank. It is an airplane will get you into (and out of) trouble pretty quick.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 476 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 19872 times:

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 34):
And why is the Temporary Cert from 1981?


It's not. It's from 2010 as has been pointed out.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 39):
I believe FAA temps are only valid for 120 days after issuance. And why would a guy get his temp laminated?


It's entirely possible he was still carrying the temp just because he hadn't taken it out of his wallet or something. He may have a permanent certificate with him that hasn't been found yet.

Quoting Triple7X (Reply 35):

Agree, is pretty fishy how is the cert from 1981 and VFR only in a jet is well.......*speechless*
Quoting 26point2 (Reply 34):
VFR only.....in a jet?


FAA database check shows a valid commercial license with the same issue date, but the VFR only limitation applies to the HS-125, not the Lear. Also, it does not list the Private Pilot privileges limitation for the HS-125 as it appears is on that temp. I'm not sure why they would be different, because if it had changed there would be a new issue date.



SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlineTriple7X From Singapore, joined Dec 2012, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 19680 times:

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 45):


SA-227

I think you might had missed something, in front of the HS-125 Private Pilot Privileges VFR Only, there was a phase that read
LR-JET VFR Only;

[Edited 2012-12-10 08:44:58]

[Edited 2012-12-10 08:47:53]


Just a 16 year old who loves aviation :)
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 648 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 18915 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 33):
I don't believe that there was a second pilot on board, if there was only 1 pilot, would they be allowed to fly?

There were 2 pilots on board.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4300 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 18678 times:

Quoting aerodog (Reply 40):
I'm not so sure.

In the Payne Stewart accident and at least one other LJ accident, the probable cause was the crew forgot to turn on the bleed air.

In both of these accidents, the autopilot was engaged so the aircraft continued to fly for quite some distance.

Assuming the autopilot was not engaged or even inop, it's a possible cause.

If that were the case in this incident, would the two crew members be incapacitated after that short a time in the air reports stated that it was only 10 minutes after takeoff that the aircraft was lost on radar? I know that this is still in the preliminary stages and I am sure that the reason will be coming out in the future after the investigation is concluded.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6357 posts, RR: 31
Reply 49, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 18315 times:
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Quoting tb727 (Reply 44):
Given his age and the fact that he was VFR only, at night,

Mexico does not allow night VFR.


User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 476 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 18155 times:

Quoting Triple7X (Reply 46):
I think you might had missed something, in front of the HS-125 Private Pilot Privileges VFR Only, there was a phase that read
LR-JET VFR Only;


I was referring to the FAA's online database, which is worded slightly different with no apparent VFR restriction for the Lear. Also, there is no mention of the Private Pilot Privileges only on the FAA database, which is why I found that odd since generally when those are changed, a new certificate is issued, but the online database shows the same issue date as the temp picture.

[Edited 2012-12-10 09:46:02]


SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6357 posts, RR: 31
Reply 51, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 18139 times:
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http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/889034.html

According to the above, initial investigation results show the plane descended abruptly from 35,000ft to 9,000ft before disappearing from radar. They are not sure wether the plane had or did not have a CVR or FDR. They are looking for the documentation regarding that.


User currently offlinecapri From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 450 posts, RR: 1
Reply 52, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 18033 times:

It's sad to know these tragics can happen if really were preventable, thoughts with their families.

Another question, how apt is the Mexican investigation, since also aircraft is USA registered, will they invite NTSB to help and cooperate??


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6357 posts, RR: 31
Reply 53, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 18223 times:
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Pictures here.

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/889025.html


User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 54, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 17325 times:

The NTSB will be involved because it was an American made aircraft.

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21678 posts, RR: 55
Reply 55, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 16949 times:

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 39):
Also, the restriction on his Commercial License that's "Not valid for carrying person or property for hire..". Isn't that the whole point of a commercial license? Why this restriction?

Might have something to do with the fact that the pilot had a foreign license as well.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 43):
It should also say something like "Valid only with Mexico pilot license # _______."

Which it does.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 50):
I was referring to the FAA's online database, which is worded slightly different with no apparent VFR restriction for the Lear.

The FAA's database is not perfect - for a while it showed me as having a medical certificate that was a couple of years out of date, even though I had been renewing them on a yearly basis.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinegolftango From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 16661 times:

Sad final picture of Jenni and her crew.



User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21678 posts, RR: 55
Reply 57, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 16194 times:

Quoting golftango (Reply 56):
Sad final picture of Jenni and her crew.

To clarify, I believe you mean her entourage, not the crew of the airplane.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 58, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 15698 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 54):
The NTSB will be involved because it was an American made aircraft.

I believe that's only true if the Mexican authorities invite them. The FAA is involved as the issuer of the type certificate and, normally, Lear and the engine OEM would be invited in by the Mexican authorities, but NTSB should have no jurisdiction here...they could only act as an agent of the Mexican authorities.

Tom.


User currently offlinesshd From Spain, joined May 2011, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 15545 times:

This plane had an accident 7 years ago: http://www.initialfix.com/reference/...nt/2005/20050803X01150/N345MC.html

I dont want to mean anything with this. Just adding some more info about the plane.
I still wonder whether there is any weather forecast at the time of the crash.


User currently offlineCapEd388 From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 15177 times:

Quick question

Would the fact that it is a US owned and registered aircraft give the FAA or NTSB some authority? How does that come into play?



388 346 77W 787
User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 61, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 14777 times:

Every air disaster involving an American made airline seems to be always investigated by the NTSB, in fact the NTSB is already on this one. Does the Mexican government even have the needed technology and specialists to conduct such an investigation?

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/2012/121210.html


User currently offlinesanti319 From Mexico, joined Dec 2005, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 14458 times:

Quoting CapEd388 (Reply 60):

Quick question

Would the fact that it is a US owned and registered aircraft give the FAA or NTSB some authority? How does that come into play?


388 346 77W 787

She was also American, born and raised, her spanish wasn't even that good. Kind of like Selena. She has also been accused of drug-related stuff in the past, not saying this has something to do, but you must always count all the factors.


User currently offlinetexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4280 posts, RR: 52
Reply 63, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 14170 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 61):
Every air disaster involving an American made airline seems to be always investigated by the NTSB, in fact the NTSB is already on this one. Does the Mexican government even have the needed technology and specialists to conduct such an investigation? http://www.ntsb.gov/news/2012/121210.html

Yes, but under ICAO Annex 13, the State of Registry of the aircraft gets to appoint an accredited representative if it would like. And foreign governments may ask for help if they want to. But the State of Occurrence has responsibility to conduct the investigation.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 64, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 13527 times:

Quoting texan (Reply 63):
But the State of Occurrence has responsibility to conduct the investigation.

Thanks for settling that. It makes sense.

Now waiting for some anuttter to say "Prove it!".....


User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5077 posts, RR: 28
Reply 65, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 13144 times:

Have they released both pilots names yet? The last picture taken has 5 people in it. First reports said there were a total of 6 on the plane. If that is the case, then we would be able to question if there was only one pilot flying the plane.

However, updated reports say that there were a total of 7 onboard. 5 of the entourage, and 2 pilots.

Very sad! I suspect both pilots must have lost consciousness? Maybe a loss of cabin pressure? I can't imagine what else could cause such a plunge, without any distress calls if both pilots were aware of the situation.

Anyways, can anyone confirm how many were on the plane, and is there an official list?

Also, I have read that Starwood has some dirt on them, including one of the owners being busted for smuggling drugs on a few of the planes, and doing prison time for drugs. Could this perhaps be a sign of the drug cartel in Mexico being involved in this? Even Rivera had some issues with drugs in her past. The dirt on Starwood has me wondering how they could even be allowed to be in business anymore. Apparently they have several lawsuits against them too.

And before anyone takes a swing at me over the drug cartels.... Please.... Don't bite hard. Let's face it, these drug cartels in Mexico are doing some pretty awful things to people. Which is why I would not dismiss this as a possibility.

[Edited 2012-12-10 21:58:29]


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineTriple7X From Singapore, joined Dec 2012, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 13169 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 65):

Yes there was a list of passengers on board:
Pilot-Miguel Perez Soto
Co-Pilot-Alejandro Torres


Jenni Rivera
Mario Macias (attorney)
Jorge Sanchez (stylist)
Jacob Yebale (makeup artist)
Arturo Rivera (publicist)



Just a 16 year old who loves aviation :)
User currently offlineViajero From Mexico, joined Aug 2008, 134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 12769 times:
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As'expected, the U.S. authorities will assist with the investigation per the SCT.

"The FAA and NTSB of United States will assist with the investigations, which are the responsibility of the Mexican authorities."

Link: (Spanish Only) http://www.sct.gob.mx/uploads/media/Comunicado_006-dic.pdf


User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 68, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 12319 times:

Quoting Triple7X (Reply 42):
the Learjet 25 is considered a pretty challenging aircraft to fly in comparison with most general aviation aircraft and more modern light jets.

I would agree with that, and in all phases of flight. Most airplanes you can trim to fly hands off. I've never gotten a Lear to do that. Also, the autopilots in those airplanes absolutely suck. The best we ever got was altitude hold in level cruise. We had to hand fly up and down. It's moderately stable at lower altitudes but is a challenge up high.

Not to say it can't be done or taught, it's just a higher workload airplane than most. The adage is that if you can fly an old Lear, you can fly anything

Quoting brilondon (Reply 48):
If that were the case in this incident, would the two crew members be incapacitated after that short a time in the air reports stated that it was only 10 minutes after takeoff that the aircraft was lost on radar?

I can see the breakdown that would lead to this. The old Lears have a few idiosyncrasies that breed selective non-compliance. That selective non-compliance can get you killed when you have a system failure. System failures can also be pilot induced.

I'm not going to get into great details on the breakdown that can occur, but I'll say the old Lears require adherence to procedure to fly safely, every flight. That adherence to procedure is often lacking in shadier outfits.


User currently offlineTriple7X From Singapore, joined Dec 2012, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 12161 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 68):

That is why I am wondering if both pilots have any prior experience flying LR-JET, or how many hours did each of the pilot clocked in a LR-JET before the incident......



Just a 16 year old who loves aviation :)
User currently offlinecapri From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 450 posts, RR: 1
Reply 70, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 11965 times:

I read somewhere that Learjet is susceptible of its pilots getting hypoxia, do you think could have happened especially taking off from high altitude airport and maybe pressurisation was not set right?

User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4300 posts, RR: 1
Reply 71, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 11666 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 55):
Might have something to do with the fact that the pilot had a foreign license as well.

I can't see that as being relevant.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 72, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11512 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 71):
Quoting Mir (Reply 55):Might have something to do with the fact that the pilot had a foreign license as well.
I can't see that as being relevant.

What Mir means (and he's right) is that

Quoting Mir (Reply 55):
Quoting 26point2 (Reply 39):Also, the restriction on his Commercial License that's "Not valid for carrying person or property for hire..". Isn't that the whole point of a commercial license? Why this restriction?
Might have something to do with the fact that the pilot had a foreign license as well.

When the FAA grants a "reciprocal license" it doesn't actually subject the applicant to an FAA checkride. They're basically saying that they're extending some privileges of an FAA commercial certificate to the foreign certificate holder because he has qualified in the foreign country, but since the FAA doesn't have direct oversight of the certification process of other countries, they put some restrictions on it.



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 73, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11517 times:

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/...ght/story?id=17928567#.UMd9EOTLTY8

Quote:
A Mexican businessman linked to the company whose jet crashed near Monterrey, Mexico on Sunday, killing star singer Jenni Rivera, 43, and six other people, has been convicted of falsifying aircraft records, counterfeiting government inspection stamps, and drug-trafficking charges, court records show.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 74, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 11125 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 3):
Learjet 25
N345MC
6 people on board total
Last contact was at 61.8 miles south of MTY
Took off from ADN, bound for Toluca at 03:40AM local

CNN contacted me wanting a picture of the plane from airport-data, but they show N98FT a Hawker 700. I had to turn them down on the photo request because I don't want to be a part of incorrect reporting.


User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 837 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10561 times:

News just released make it sound like a Mach-tuck episode? Sudden and extreme dive from 28,000'.

Older Lears were known to have trouble with Mach-tuck and at least one Lear 24 accident was a result of this.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7213 posts, RR: 9
Reply 76, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10505 times:

Seems like a shady outfit, not something I would ever hire to do any flying. http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/11/us/mex...ane-ownership/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

Once I saw Lear-25 I thought two things. Either she owned an old lear because she wanted a private jet even though she could not really afford one or that she wanted or needed to fly private and could not afford a good operation.

I understand why should would want to and possibly need to fly private to get around smaller cities especially at 4am but if you can't afford a good operator with modern and/or well maintained planes stick with the airlines. At least that's my two cents to someone in this situation.

It seems like a very very high velocity impact from the pictures. Some type of mechanical failure won't be surprising.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinePSAJet17 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10590 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 74):
CNN contacted me wanting a picture of the plane from airport-data, but they show N98FT a Hawker 700. I had to turn them down on the photo request because I don't want to be a part of incorrect reporting.

The local (PHX) ABC station was reporting on this accident during their 11am news on Monday and had a story from ABC News. During the ABC clip they had a map showing the route the flight was to take. Only problem was the graphic person from ABC thought Monterrey was located somewhere near Yuma, AZ and showed the flight going down the western coast of mainland Mexico.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6357 posts, RR: 31
Reply 78, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10463 times:
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Quoting flymia (Reply 76):
Once I saw Lear-25 I thought two things. Either she owned an old lear because she wanted a private jet even though she could not really afford one or that she wanted or needed to fly private and could not afford a good operation.

That. Or, the person who chartered the jet, knows squat about aviation. Even so, the Captain was 78 (79 next month) and the FO was very very young. Some reports I´ve read mention he was 20, but I have not been able to confirm it. I don´t think that´s the best combination for a Learjet, without even going into the fact it was a 1969 vintage Lear.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7213 posts, RR: 9
Reply 79, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks ago) and read 10315 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 78):
That. Or, the person who chartered the jet, knows squat about aviation. Even so, the Captain was 78 (79 next month) and the FO was very very young. Some reports I´ve read mention he was 20, but I have not been able to confirm it. I don´t think that´s the best combination for a Learjet, without even going into the fact it was a 1969 vintage Lear.

That is not a good combo for any complex aircraft. Nuts. Will be interesting to see what went wrong if they will ever be able to figure it out.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6357 posts, RR: 31
Reply 80, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks ago) and read 10273 times:
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Quoting flymia (Reply 79):
Will be interesting to see what went wrong if they will ever be able to figure it out.

I´ve been told that the biggest piece of wreckage found is the size of a melon. They have not found any type of recorder yet. I don´t really know how hampered the investigation will be with the two facts above. But it does seem like a very tough job ahead.


User currently offlineTriple7X From Singapore, joined Dec 2012, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9890 times:

Still wondering how many hours did both pilots clocked in a lear before the accident...


Just a 16 year old who loves aviation :)
User currently offlinemila From Sweden, joined May 2011, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9532 times:

Just found this picture which seams like the captain and maybe the co-pilot

http://enlineadirecta.info/noticias/?option=view&article=197014


User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1613 posts, RR: 9
Reply 83, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9417 times:

Quoting mila (Reply 82):
Just found this picture which seams like the captain and maybe the co-pilot

Could be but that is not a Lear cockpit.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6357 posts, RR: 31
Reply 84, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9416 times:
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The FO was 22 years old.

User currently offlinemila From Sweden, joined May 2011, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9479 times:

Also found this and translated via google I read that it seams like the pilots had been flying for 19 hours prior the crash!

Maybe someone that speaks Spanish can translate this better that Google.

http://sancristobaldr.blogspot.se/20...to-de-78-anos-esta-capacitado.html


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 86, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9384 times:

Quoting mila (Reply 85):

Also found this and translated via google I read that it seams like the pilots had been flying for 19 hours prior the crash!

Maybe someone that speaks Spanish can translate this better that Google.

Indeed, that is what the article says. Sad either way... May they all R.I.P.


User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 87, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9391 times:

There is no FDR, and $20 says the CVR didn't work.

User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6357 posts, RR: 31
Reply 88, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9417 times:
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Quoting tb727 (Reply 83):
Could be but that is not a Lear cockpit.

Don´t know if that´s the Captain. But that is the FO.


User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1613 posts, RR: 9
Reply 89, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9388 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 87):

There is no FDR, and $20 says the CVR didn't work.

Yeah, I bet that is the case.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 90, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9423 times:

Another $20 says the bleeds were off and the caution / warning system breaker was pulled.

User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1613 posts, RR: 9
Reply 91, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9351 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 90):
Another $20 says the bleeds were off and the caution / warning system breaker was pulled.

That could be true but I don't know if they were in the air long enough to have passed out from hypoxia, were they?



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineTriple7X From Singapore, joined Dec 2012, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9353 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 90):

If it is true that bleed air was not turn on, and the warning sounded, the pilot/co-pilot should have checked before pulling the warning system breaker....



Just a 16 year old who loves aviation :)
User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1613 posts, RR: 9
Reply 93, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9312 times:

Quoting Triple7X (Reply 92):
If it is true that bleed air was not turn on, and the warning sounded, the pilot/co-pilot should have checked before pulling the warning system breaker....

Unfortunately if they pulled the breaker to keep the overspeed from sounding, they wouldn't have gotten the cabin altitude warning. Pretty dumb thing to do.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 94, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9327 times:

Quoting tb727 (Reply 93):
Unfortunately if they pulled the breaker to keep the overspeed from sounding, they wouldn't have gotten the cabin altitude warning. Pretty dumb thing to do.

I've seen more than one Lear guy hit 10K, accelerate to 306, get the overspeed and pull the breaker. That kills the cabin altitude warning also. If you do a bleeds off takeoff, forget to turn them back on, pull the overspeed, you won't pressurize. It's entirely possible that you won't even know anything is wrong (ears popping aren't going to be a good indicator going up) until you're passed out. The Lear climbs like a bat out of hell. Probably faster than you can recognize the onset of hypoxia if you've set yourself up for that scenario.

I would bet money that's what happened with Payne Stewart's airplane also. The difference there is the autopilot is actually worth a shit in a 35 as opposed to the 20 series. Those things are worthless above being used as an altitude and heading hold. I've never flown one that could be used in any greater capability than that. Handfly up and down, along with the approach.

[Edited 2012-12-12 08:03:18]

User currently online7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1631 posts, RR: 8
Reply 95, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9229 times:

Quoting tb727 (Reply 91):
That could be true but I don't know if they were in the air long enough to have passed out from hypoxia, were they?

Useful conciousness at FL280 is 2-3 minutes--since the clock started ticking on them at about 15,000 ft by the time they hit FL280 they would have been out. Age (one was old) and smoking (probably both?) decreases the time alot.


User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 837 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9161 times:

The cockpit picture is an IA 1124 Westwind or IA 1125 Astra...nearly the same cockpit. Not a Learjet.

User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9151 posts, RR: 76
Reply 97, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9101 times:

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 39):
ou might be right about the lower left box date but still...2010? I believe FAA temps are only valid for 120 days after issuance. And why would a guy get his temp laminated? To make it "last longer"?

Also, the restriction on his Commercial License that's "Not valid for carrying person or property for hire..". Isn't that the whole point of a commercial license? Why this restriction? Perhaps something to do with the VFR only endorsement.

That looks like a normal FAA validation of a foreign licence, it would be enough for someone to use to get the type rating on and take it back to their original country of issue. In a private operation a pilot can fly a 747 and carry passengers on a PPL. They have have received a credit card licence in the mail later, the paper ones are normally issued at by the FSDO on the spot, the credit cards size can take a while to turn up. The temp certificate and and final almost always have differnt authorisations.

Many pilots with a foreign licence go through as similar validation process, and then use the type rating process to do a check ride to get a FAA CPL/ATP (after doing the writens). TSA have made this harder now.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 58):

I believe that's only true if the Mexican authorities invite them. The FAA is involved as the issuer of the type certificate and, normally, Lear and the engine OEM would be invited in by the Mexican authorities, but NTSB should have no jurisdiction here...they could only act as an agent of the Mexican authorities.

From my understanding the NTSB will only have a"right" to be involved if is is an international flight.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1613 posts, RR: 9
Reply 98, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8684 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 94):
I've seen more than one Lear guy hit 10K, accelerate to 306, get the overspeed and pull the breaker.

Yeah, me too. Not smart, I hated flying that airplane. Glad I've been out of it for a long time, haven't missed it one bit.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 94):
If you do a bleeds off takeoff, forget to turn them back on, pull the overspeed, you won't pressurize. It's entirely possible that you won't even know anything is wrong (ears popping aren't going to be a good indicator going up) until you're passed out. The Lear climbs like a bat out of hell. Probably faster than you can recognize the onset of hypoxia if you've set yourself up for that scenario.

There is no advantage or procedure for a bleeds off takeoff in a Learjet. They could have been accidentally turned off though unknowingly or accidentally, they were apparently up a long time and this was an odd hour of the night, flying tired it could have easily been missed.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 94):
I would bet money that's what happened with Payne Stewart's airplane also. The difference there is the autopilot is actually worth a shit in a 35 as opposed to the 20 series. Those things are worthless above being used as an altitude and heading hold. I've never flown one that could be used in any greater capability than that. Handfly up and down, along with the approach.

The Payne Stewart a/p was most likely engaged in airspeed hold during the climb, that's why it porpoised up and down chasing airspeed all the way until it ran out of fuel. If you want to have a lot of fun try doing a coupled approach in a 20 series lol. Mr. Toad's wild ride!

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 95):
Useful conciousness at FL280 is 2-3 minutes--since the clock started ticking on them at about 15,000 ft by the time they hit FL280 they would have been out. Age (one was old) and smoking (probably both?) decreases the time alot.

In the case of the famous Lear 25 hypoxia incident on youtube, the Captain(late 60's) held on just long enough due to the fact that he was a smoker. I don't see how that works but that came out in the investigation, the significantly younger FO was out like a light. Still it is a possibility given that time frame I guess. The sudden decent though tells me there was a better chance of pitch trim runaway or something else.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6357 posts, RR: 31
Reply 99, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8066 times:
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The plane arrived into Mexican territory on August the 31st. It was given to Ms. Rivera to use for free for the next six months as a "testing" period since she was interested in buying it. I´m not sure that is common practice but I find that strange. i´m not sure where they sourced the crew.

User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2442 posts, RR: 14
Reply 100, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 8003 times:

Quoting tb727 (Reply 98):
The sudden decent though tells me there was a better chance of pitch trim runaway or something else.

Just two days ago I've read on the Wikipedia about Alaska Airlines flight 261... the MD-83 there had a THS jackscrew failure, and poor maintenance practices were determined as the cause.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Airlines_Flight_261

I'm, as so many others on this forum, really interested into how this has happened...


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 101, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7590 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 100):
Just two days ago I've read on the Wikipedia about Alaska Airlines flight 261..

Extremely unlikely there is any similarity or common cause between these two accidents. The circumstances were completely different. Alaska 261 took place over more than an hour, for one thing, and that's just the nature of that kind of jackscrew failure. They had plenty of time to get on the radios and they were in control of their speeds all the way down.

This Lear seems to have reached 28,000 feet and then instantly dove straight into the ground at 600mph with no radio contact.

I'm not all that familiar with this plane but if others here say it's susceptible to mach tuck, that sounds like a plausible scenario to me, potentially combined with some other issue (like hypoxia).



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 102, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7305 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 99):
The plane arrived into Mexican territory on August the 31st. It was given to Ms. Rivera to use for free for the next six months as a "testing" period since she was interested in buying it. I´m not sure that is common practice but I find that strange

I've seen a few similar arrangements with older Lears.

The planes really have no value for resale in the US as passenger carriers, and few folks would want to convert one for on-demand cargo charter operations.

Such an arrangement would require the prospective buyer to pay for fuel, ongoing maintenance, crew salaries, insurance, etc.

The only cost for the aircraft owner is that they get no income from the aircraft for the period of the test drive.

In one case I know, after a few weeks, the prospective buyer returned the plane, and the company scrapped it for parts in-house. In two other cases, the plane was eventually purchased for a couple hundred thousand dollars. Not much for 'private jet' but more than the company would have gotten selling the plane for scrap.


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