As ridiculous as this sounds, it does look like this would have been missed! Would there be a speed warning or undercarriage warning to the flightdeck?
Quoting migair54 (Reply 3): Hot Brakes.... when brakes are hot you can leave it down for a while to use the ram air for cooling.
But why would you have hot brakes on the take-off roll? Even heavy taxi braking wouldn't create anything like enough heat to warrant this? IIRC SOP states that after an RTO wheel brakes have to be serviceable before a second attempt so I doubt that an RTO happened before this take-off?
I would be interested to hear what happened with ATC after the climb-hold instruction. Is there anyway of listening to the ATC?
catII From Canada, joined Feb 2011, 15 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 15649 times:
Most likely the gear was left down due to an MEL'd brake. Sometimes a brake can be MEL'd and so we are required to keep the gear down longer to cool the brakes off. If its a heavy load and a lot of taxiing and you take away 1 brake... the rest of the brakes have to work harder, generating more heat.
This is most likely the case here, coming from an A330 driver who's done this procedure a few times before.
To those that think they forgot the gear. Highly doubt this. The noise alone would make it hard not to forget to bring it up, it's quite noisy with the gear down! That, plus "positive rate, gear up" is literally drilled in our heads.
migair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1423 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 15601 times:
Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 5): But why would you have hot brakes on the take-off roll? Even heavy taxi braking wouldn't create anything like enough heat to warrant this? IIRC SOP states that after an RTO wheel brakes have to be serviceable before a second attempt so I doubt that an RTO happened before this take-off?
Usually long taxi with stop and goes create hot brakes alarm, specially if any of the brakes is not in good condition or quite worn out, so if possible a delay on the take off or leaving the landing gear donw for a while is enough.
Quoting airbusb0y (Reply 6): Hot brakes as in the wheels spinning up due to the takeoff roll and then the pilots pressing on the brakes to stop them spinning?
there´s no need to do, it´s automatic and in the nose wheel it has a rubber block that stop them spinning by contact because they don´t have brakes.
Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 5): I would be interested to hear what happened with ATC after the climb-hold instruction. Is there anyway of listening to the ATC?
i think they were told to stop turning at 190 degrees, Stop the roll at 190 degrees.
Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 5): As ridiculous as this sounds, it does look like this would have been missed! Would there be a speed warning or undercarriage warning to the flightdeck?
It´s very unlikely that pilots forgot the gear in down position during a take off, very very unlikely. In case of a engine failure that extra drag can put you in a very very dangerous situation, second segment is the most critical phase of a take off specially for twins, that´s why as soon as positive climb, Gear up.
They will have a overspeed warning when they pass the maximum speed for landing gear down, planes usually have one max speed for extending the gear, one for retracting and one to fly with the gear down and lock. In Some planes some of this speeds can be close or even the same but given the usual retraction towards the front the speed for retracting the gear is lower than the one for lowering, but not always.
tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 81 Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15350 times:
Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 5): But why would you have hot brakes on the take-off roll?
Brakes cool very very slowly on the ground; prolonged taxing with brake riding can heat up the brakes.
Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 5): Even heavy taxi braking wouldn't create anything like enough heat to warrant this?
It's happened to me many times.
Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 5): IIRC SOP states that after an RTO wheel brakes have to be serviceable before a second attempt so I doubt that an RTO happened before this take-off?
It doesn't matter if you had an RTO before, you can get hot brakes just driving around on the ramp if it's a long taxi.
Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 7): Not enough heat would be generated to have to keep them down so long.
That's a workload thing...if you don't pull them up right away then you're involved in tower > departure handoff, watching for traffic, etc. There's no real problem with leaving them down until workload lightens up.
Quoting catII (Reply 8): Most likely the gear was left down due to an MEL'd brake. Sometimes a brake can be MEL'd and so we are required to keep the gear down longer to cool the brakes off.
If a brake is on MEL the problem isn't heat, it's spin down. Without the brakes, the wheel will only spin down with bearing friction. You do not want to retract a spinning MLG wheel into the wheel well.
waly777 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2012, 270 posts, RR: 3 Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15030 times:
Quoting btblue (Reply 9): As soon as the ATC alerted them, the gear was retracted.
Exactly my point, whilst "gear up" is a routine procedure once a positive rate of climb is confirmed, these guys seems to have forgot for whatever reason.
If it was a case of the brakes being too hot, they would have left the gear extended a bit longer to cool and not retracted it as soon as atc questioned if there was a problem and pointed out their gear was still extended.
Certainly looks like they may have forgot.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
CCA From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2002, 769 posts, RR: 14 Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14918 times:
From the 747 MEL A330 is probably similar.
Quote: One or two brakes may be deactivated by capping the brake line provided:
a. Take-off and landing performance complies with Operations Manual, both for Gear Down dispatch and for two brakes deactivated.
b. After take-off, gear remains down for two minutes before retraction
I doubt the crew forgot, I image as ATC prompted them and rather than waste ATC chatter they just said "negative standby" and probably something along the lines of that's close enough and selected the gear up.
I tell ATC with the takeoff clearance that we will be leaving the gear down to prevent ATC having to mention it, however if in a foreign country this may result in unnecessary chat so you have to pick when it's suitable.
spacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3365 posts, RR: 13 Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 week 4 days ago) and read 14643 times:
Quoting waly777 (Reply 13): If it was a case of the brakes being too hot, they would have left the gear extended a bit longer to cool and not retracted it as soon as atc questioned if there was a problem and pointed out their gear was still extended.
What's more likely, that the crew "forgot" to raise the gear, or that they left it down to cool the brakes and it was a very minor coincidence that they raised the gear around the same time ATC spoke up? The former never happens, the latter happens quite frequently.
Also, listen to the pilot's reaction to ATC. He immediately says "negative" when asked if there's any problem. He doesn't take a second to think, or to check that ATC's correct, or to come up with some kind of excuse. He doesn't pause and he doesn't say "uhhhh...." or "oops!" He knows the gear's down, and it's down on purpose.
[Edited 2012-12-10 21:14:57]
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
peterjohns From Germany, joined Jan 2009, 173 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14144 times:
Hot brakes are the reason. On A330/340 there is a max retraction temp.- if this is succeeded the gear has to stay out. It happens very frequently - for several reasons:
- long taxi times at todays airports. The brakes are used constantly.
- High thrust output at idle pwr due to modern engines. One also can´t just turn one or two off due to the seperate/independant hydraulic systems. Plus on 340 you would need extra pwr to go around sharp turns- which is not allowed on the ramp.
- Short turnaround times. Often the brakes are still hot from the landing just an hour ago...
- Anti Ice prior T/O needs extra thrust, so also extra brake usage...
While I will probably be flamed for this, I have this little anecdote to share:
One of my best friends, heck, I flew 10hrs to Spain for his wedding on an outrageous fare for only a weekend, because I could not get time off, is a UX pilot. A few years ago, when he was one of their 737s FOs he told me about one flight where they forgot to raise the gear. Essentially, his Captain and him were baffled that they could not accelerate as fast or to their desired speed. Afer a few checks, they THEN checked the gear, and surprise, surprise, they realized they had not raised it.
He is now a UX Captain, and I won´t tell the airliner he flies.
So I know for a fact it can happen. Was this the case here? I don´t know. But forgetting to raise the gear is a certain possibility.
waly777 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2012, 270 posts, RR: 3 Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9477 times:
Quoting spacecadet (Reply 15): What's more likely, that the crew "forgot" to raise the gear, or that they left it down to cool the brakes and it was a very minor coincidence that they raised the gear around the same time ATC spoke up? The former never happens, the latter happens quite frequently
You can't possibly say the former never happens as I doubt you have been on every flight that has taken off.
Quoting spacecadet (Reply 15): Also, listen to the pilot's reaction to ATC. He immediately says "negative" when asked if there's any problem. He doesn't take a second to think, or to check that ATC's correct, or to come up with some kind of excuse. He doesn't pause and he doesn't say "uhhhh...." or "oops!" He knows the gear's down, and it's down on purpose
Indeed he doesn't pause, but which cockpit crew will want to admit they forgot something as basic as raising the gear. I know if something like that happened, my response will be the same and will raise the gear straight away. Pausing, going "oops" etc will just be embarrassing.
For the record, I have been on a BA flight where the crew forgot to raise the gear and raised it 2 mins later. I know this because I'm close friends with the first officer of that flight.
Besides, all of this is just assumption....none of us were in that cockpit and can only guess. No human is above mistakes especially minor ones.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
RussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7358 posts, RR: 23 Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9281 times:
Quoting delawareusa (Reply 21): could have been a blown tire late in the take off roll, then gear left down to cool. Happened to me on US Airways. A330 left gear down for a few minutes, then pulled them up and flew on to LGW
But whether it was brakes, a tire or whatever other reason, why didn't he quickly reply to ATC what the issue was rather than just saying no problem and bringing the gear up immediately after? Would it really take so long and be such a distraction to say 'negative, cooling brakes' or similar?
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
25 tdscanuck: Many modern jets (most?) have a brake temperature monitoring system...it's usually on an auxiliary EICAS/ECAM page (for Boeing/Airbus). If the brakes
26 bueb0g: No it doesn't No it doesn't Exactly, you can't. The point is there is no pause or surprise - he wasn't alerted to the situation by ATC, he already kn
27 waly777: Makes no difference to me. Base point, everything on this thread is an assumption except a member of the crew is on Anet to verify.
28 brilondon: Why would they not tell ATC about the hot breaks? To me it seems like they just forgot.
29 JBirdAV8r: This. Um...no. Because ATC doesn't care about hot brakes or an MEL'd brake. We're not required to tell them anything. Forgetting to put the gear up j
30 tdscanuck: Because ATC doesn't need to know, doesn't care, and actively discourages people from taking up radio time for things that don't have to do with vecto
31 Wisdom: It was in October in the UK, so about 15°C temperatures, Virgin's widebodies have long turn-around times, at an airport with a long runway. So brakes
32 keta: Could it happen that a takeoff has to be postponed because of hot brakes, if the constraint is tight in the second segment?
33 peterjohns: Well not really. The brakes can cool off quickly once in the air. There are other factors as well, which would call for a fast departure( economical
34 horstroad: I guess it´s because of a MEL'd brake as said before. all main wheels need to stop during/prior to retraction. normally when the retract cylinder get
35 AR385: Exactly. Just like forgetting to lower the flaps for take off. Oh wait...
36 Wisdom: The initial brake temp does affect RTO performance. As a rule of thumb, the brakes need to be less than 150°C to be able to perform a proper RTO at
37 tdscanuck: Yes. If the brakes are too hot before takeoff you don't have enough capacity left to do an RTO if required. Yes, it does. The brakes' ability to abso
38 peterjohns: Hi there That might be right for car brakes, but the modern stack carbon brakes actually brake even better when hot!! The carbon/carbon composite is
39 SixtySeven: Someone said something about an MEL. They are absolutely right. You have a deactivated brake- they call it capped in the Boeing world. Could be due to
40 peterjohns: See- that´s what we ATC guys are there for. If nobody looks after the Pilots and tell them what to do, they tend to do all sort of funny things...
41 longhauler: Actually they are not as alike as you may think. Retracting gear on take-off is almost rote, as many on here have stated. Positive rate ... gear up.
42 SixtySeven: Yes Peter! Always a good idea to keep at least one eye on us pilots at all times!! Despite the good natured rivalry we pilots and ATC types are alway
43 peterjohns: Ha Ha- you can´t get me on that one- may I remind you of Oct 21st 09 , NWA 188 to Minneapolis...
44 AR385: You are the expert in the subject, of course, and I won´t be so arrogant as to argue with you. I understand what you are saying, and the purpose of
45 zeke: The reason for leaving the gear down like this is normally for a deactivated brake. We leave the gear down to let the wheels spin down so they are not
46 Norcal773: This is the problem with A.Net today. We have A330 pilots here who state over and over again what the reason for leaving it down is and then we have
47 longhauler: I agree with you completely. Never is a very powerful word. (I am not the one that said "never".) It is more like, "There but for the grace of God ..
48 tdscanuck: There is a difference between how well they brake (how fast they can decelerate the aircraft, which is how much torque the brake can apply) and braki
49 JBirdAV8r: I thought it would be obvious that "never" meant "statistically insignificant chance." However, since the game of semantics is quite popular on A.net
50 brilondon: Then the above posts stating that they needed to cool the brakes is true without alerting the ATC as to the reason why would lead one to believe that
51 SixtySeven: Not at all. they may have been warm from the previous landing. Long taxi. Heavy TOW's I always take a quick look at the brake temps before going into
52 longhauler: That is what I used to think, until someone on here pointed out this incident to me: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19730808-0