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VS A330 Late Undercarriage Retraction? (Video)  
User currently offlineairbusb0y From Sri Lanka, joined Dec 2010, 9 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 16753 times:

Came across this Virgin A330 video departing LHR. The landing gear is extended longer than usual after takeoff until ATC asks them whether there is a problem? What could be the reason? Just curious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EajYuf_F4Oo

58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinewaly777 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2012, 337 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 16674 times:

Hmm, looks like they forgot


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User currently offlineshamrock321 From Ireland, joined May 2008, 1601 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 16623 times:

I doubt they forgot! "Positive rate-gear up" is engrained on theses guys brains! I've seen it before, it's done for many different reasons.

User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 16608 times:

Hot Brakes.... when brakes are hot you can leave it down for a while to use the ram air for cooling.

User currently offlineTardis From UK - England, joined Dec 2012, 40 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 16566 times:

I agree, probably hot brakes. Do Airbus have brake cooling in the gear bays like the DC-10's did?

User currently offlinesandyb123 From UK - Scotland, joined Oct 2007, 1119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 16453 times:
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Quoting waly777 (Reply 1):
Hmm, looks like they forgot

As ridiculous as this sounds, it does look like this would have been missed! Would there be a speed warning or undercarriage warning to the flightdeck?

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
Hot Brakes.... when brakes are hot you can leave it down for a while to use the ram air for cooling.

But why would you have hot brakes on the take-off roll? Even heavy taxi braking wouldn't create anything like enough heat to warrant this? IIRC SOP states that after an RTO wheel brakes have to be serviceable before a second attempt so I doubt that an RTO happened before this take-off?

I would be interested to hear what happened with ATC after the climb-hold instruction. Is there anyway of listening to the ATC?

Sandyb123



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User currently offlineairbusb0y From Sri Lanka, joined Dec 2010, 9 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 16420 times:

Hot brakes as in the wheels spinning up due to the takeoff roll and then the pilots pressing on the brakes to stop them spinning?

[Edited 2012-12-10 13:39:57]

[Edited 2012-12-10 13:40:34]

User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 16373 times:

Quoting airbusb0y (Reply 6):

Not enough heat would be generated to have to keep them down so long.



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User currently offlinecatII From Canada, joined Feb 2011, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 16286 times:

Most likely the gear was left down due to an MEL'd brake. Sometimes a brake can be MEL'd and so we are required to keep the gear down longer to cool the brakes off. If its a heavy load and a lot of taxiing and you take away 1 brake... the rest of the brakes have to work harder, generating more heat.

This is most likely the case here, coming from an A330 driver who's done this procedure a few times before.

To those that think they forgot the gear. Highly doubt this. The noise alone would make it hard not to forget to bring it up, it's quite noisy with the gear down! That, plus "positive rate, gear up" is literally drilled in our heads.


User currently offlinebtblue From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 579 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 16251 times:
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Sounds like they forgot.

As soon as the ATC alerted them, the gear was retracted.



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User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 16238 times:

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 5):
But why would you have hot brakes on the take-off roll? Even heavy taxi braking wouldn't create anything like enough heat to warrant this? IIRC SOP states that after an RTO wheel brakes have to be serviceable before a second attempt so I doubt that an RTO happened before this take-off?

Usually long taxi with stop and goes create hot brakes alarm, specially if any of the brakes is not in good condition or quite worn out, so if possible a delay on the take off or leaving the landing gear donw for a while is enough.

Quoting airbusb0y (Reply 6):
Hot brakes as in the wheels spinning up due to the takeoff roll and then the pilots pressing on the brakes to stop them spinning?

there´s no need to do, it´s automatic and in the nose wheel it has a rubber block that stop them spinning by contact because they don´t have brakes.

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 5):
I would be interested to hear what happened with ATC after the climb-hold instruction. Is there anyway of listening to the ATC?

i think they were told to stop turning at 190 degrees, Stop the roll at 190 degrees.

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 5):
As ridiculous as this sounds, it does look like this would have been missed! Would there be a speed warning or undercarriage warning to the flightdeck?

It´s very unlikely that pilots forgot the gear in down position during a take off, very very unlikely. In case of a engine failure that extra drag can put you in a very very dangerous situation, second segment is the most critical phase of a take off specially for twins, that´s why as soon as positive climb, Gear up.

They will have a overspeed warning when they pass the maximum speed for landing gear down, planes usually have one max speed for extending the gear, one for retracting and one to fly with the gear down and lock. In Some planes some of this speeds can be close or even the same but given the usual retraction towards the front the speed for retracting the gear is lower than the one for lowering, but not always.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8308 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks ago) and read 16024 times:

This happens a lot with the big airbuses. As others have said, it's the brakes. Nobody *forgets* landing gear, save for the occasional 20-hour-a-year Baron jockey.


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User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks ago) and read 15987 times:

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 5):
But why would you have hot brakes on the take-off roll?

Brakes cool very very slowly on the ground; prolonged taxing with brake riding can heat up the brakes.

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 5):
Even heavy taxi braking wouldn't create anything like enough heat to warrant this?

It's happened to me many times.

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 5):
IIRC SOP states that after an RTO wheel brakes have to be serviceable before a second attempt so I doubt that an RTO happened before this take-off?

It doesn't matter if you had an RTO before, you can get hot brakes just driving around on the ramp if it's a long taxi.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 7):
Not enough heat would be generated to have to keep them down so long.

That's a workload thing...if you don't pull them up right away then you're involved in tower > departure handoff, watching for traffic, etc. There's no real problem with leaving them down until workload lightens up.

Quoting catII (Reply 8):
Most likely the gear was left down due to an MEL'd brake. Sometimes a brake can be MEL'd and so we are required to keep the gear down longer to cool the brakes off.

If a brake is on MEL the problem isn't heat, it's spin down. Without the brakes, the wheel will only spin down with bearing friction. You do not want to retract a spinning MLG wheel into the wheel well.

Tom.


User currently offlinewaly777 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2012, 337 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 15667 times:

Quoting btblue (Reply 9):
As soon as the ATC alerted them, the gear was retracted.

Exactly my point, whilst "gear up" is a routine procedure once a positive rate of climb is confirmed, these guys seems to have forgot for whatever reason.

If it was a case of the brakes being too hot, they would have left the gear extended a bit longer to cool and not retracted it as soon as atc questioned if there was a problem and pointed out their gear was still extended.

Certainly looks like they may have forgot.



The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
User currently offlineCCA From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2002, 837 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 15555 times:

From the 747 MEL A330 is probably similar.

Quote:
One or two brakes may be deactivated by capping the brake line provided:

a. Take-off and landing performance complies with Operations Manual, both for Gear Down dispatch and for two brakes deactivated.

b. After take-off, gear remains down for two minutes before retraction

I doubt the crew forgot, I image as ATC prompted them and rather than waste ATC chatter they just said "negative standby" and probably something along the lines of that's close enough and selected the gear up.

I tell ATC with the takeoff clearance that we will be leaving the gear down to prevent ATC having to mention it, however if in a foreign country this may result in unnecessary chat so you have to pick when it's suitable.



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User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 15280 times:

Quoting waly777 (Reply 13):
If it was a case of the brakes being too hot, they would have left the gear extended a bit longer to cool and not retracted it as soon as atc questioned if there was a problem and pointed out their gear was still extended.

What's more likely, that the crew "forgot" to raise the gear, or that they left it down to cool the brakes and it was a very minor coincidence that they raised the gear around the same time ATC spoke up? The former never happens, the latter happens quite frequently.

Also, listen to the pilot's reaction to ATC. He immediately says "negative" when asked if there's any problem. He doesn't take a second to think, or to check that ATC's correct, or to come up with some kind of excuse. He doesn't pause and he doesn't say "uhhhh...." or "oops!" He knows the gear's down, and it's down on purpose.

[Edited 2012-12-10 21:14:57]


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User currently offlineAAMDanny From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2008, 363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14942 times:

VS's airbus fleet IIRC are not configured with a brake cooling system, LHR can have long taxi journeys too so maybe this was the reason.

User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 722 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14875 times:
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Perhaps this belongs in tech/ops?


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User currently offlinepeterjohns From Germany, joined Jan 2009, 207 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14781 times:

Hello There
Hot brakes are the reason. On A330/340 there is a max retraction temp.- if this is succeeded the gear has to stay out. It happens very frequently - for several reasons:
- long taxi times at todays airports. The brakes are used constantly.
- High thrust output at idle pwr due to modern engines. One also can´t just turn one or two off due to the seperate/independant hydraulic systems. Plus on 340 you would need extra pwr to go around sharp turns- which is not allowed on the ramp.
- Short turnaround times. Often the brakes are still hot from the landing just an hour ago...
- Anti Ice prior T/O needs extra thrust, so also extra brake usage...

Good day to everyone!!


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6349 posts, RR: 31
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14763 times:
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Quoting waly777 (Reply 13):
Exactly my point, whilst "gear up" is a routine procedure once a positive rate of climb is confirmed, these guys seems to have forgot for whatever reason.
Quoting migair54 (Reply 10):
It´s very unlikely that pilots forgot the gear in down position during a take off, very very unlikely.
Quoting btblue (Reply 9):
Sounds like they forgot.

While I will probably be flamed for this, I have this little anecdote to share:

One of my best friends, heck, I flew 10hrs to Spain for his wedding on an outrageous fare for only a weekend, because I could not get time off, is a UX pilot. A few years ago, when he was one of their 737s FOs he told me about one flight where they forgot to raise the gear. Essentially, his Captain and him were baffled that they could not accelerate as fast or to their desired speed. Afer a few checks, they THEN checked the gear, and surprise, surprise, they realized they had not raised it.

He is now a UX Captain, and I won´t tell the airliner he flies.

So I know for a fact it can happen. Was this the case here? I don´t know. But forgetting to raise the gear is a certain possibility.


User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14436 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
Essentially, his Captain and him were baffled that they could not accelerate as fast or to their desired speed.

Nevermind the noise and vibration created at high speed with gear down.

Realistically, how can one not notice?



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User currently offlinedelawareusa From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12827 times:

could have been a blown tire late in the take off roll, then gear left down to cool. Happened to me on US Airways. A330 left gear down for a few minutes, then pulled them up and flew on to LGW

User currently offlineJHCRJ700 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10168 times:

Quoting btblue (Reply 9):
Sounds like they forgot.

Read the post before yours. lol.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 12):
It's happened to me many times.

Is there a gauge or warning of some sort that lets you know that the brakes are hot, or is simply by experience that you can "feel" when they are hot.



RUSH
User currently offlinewaly777 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2012, 337 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10114 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 15):
What's more likely, that the crew "forgot" to raise the gear, or that they left it down to cool the brakes and it was a very minor coincidence that they raised the gear around the same time ATC spoke up? The former never happens, the latter happens quite frequently

You can't possibly say the former never happens as I doubt you have been on every flight that has taken off.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 15):
Also, listen to the pilot's reaction to ATC. He immediately says "negative" when asked if there's any problem. He doesn't take a second to think, or to check that ATC's correct, or to come up with some kind of excuse. He doesn't pause and he doesn't say "uhhhh...." or "oops!" He knows the gear's down, and it's down on purpose

Indeed he doesn't pause, but which cockpit crew will want to admit they forgot something as basic as raising the gear. I know if something like that happened, my response will be the same and will raise the gear straight away. Pausing, going "oops" etc will just be embarrassing.

For the record, I have been on a BA flight where the crew forgot to raise the gear and raised it 2 mins later. I know this because I'm close friends with the first officer of that flight.

Besides, all of this is just assumption....none of us were in that cockpit and can only guess. No human is above mistakes especially minor ones.



The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9918 times:

Quoting delawareusa (Reply 21):
could have been a blown tire late in the take off roll, then gear left down to cool. Happened to me on US Airways. A330 left gear down for a few minutes, then pulled them up and flew on to LGW

But whether it was brakes, a tire or whatever other reason, why didn't he quickly reply to ATC what the issue was rather than just saying no problem and bringing the gear up immediately after? Would it really take so long and be such a distraction to say 'negative, cooling brakes' or similar?



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25 tdscanuck : Many modern jets (most?) have a brake temperature monitoring system...it's usually on an auxiliary EICAS/ECAM page (for Boeing/Airbus). If the brakes
26 bueb0g : No it doesn't No it doesn't Exactly, you can't. The point is there is no pause or surprise - he wasn't alerted to the situation by ATC, he already kn
27 waly777 : Makes no difference to me. Base point, everything on this thread is an assumption except a member of the crew is on Anet to verify.
28 brilondon : Why would they not tell ATC about the hot breaks? To me it seems like they just forgot.
29 Post contains images JBirdAV8r : This. Um...no. Because ATC doesn't care about hot brakes or an MEL'd brake. We're not required to tell them anything. Forgetting to put the gear up j
30 tdscanuck : Because ATC doesn't need to know, doesn't care, and actively discourages people from taking up radio time for things that don't have to do with vecto
31 Wisdom : It was in October in the UK, so about 15°C temperatures, Virgin's widebodies have long turn-around times, at an airport with a long runway. So brakes
32 keta : Could it happen that a takeoff has to be postponed because of hot brakes, if the constraint is tight in the second segment?
33 peterjohns : Well not really. The brakes can cool off quickly once in the air. There are other factors as well, which would call for a fast departure( economical
34 horstroad : I guess it´s because of a MEL'd brake as said before. all main wheels need to stop during/prior to retraction. normally when the retract cylinder get
35 Post contains images AR385 : Exactly. Just like forgetting to lower the flaps for take off. Oh wait...
36 Wisdom : The initial brake temp does affect RTO performance. As a rule of thumb, the brakes need to be less than 150°C to be able to perform a proper RTO at
37 tdscanuck : Yes. If the brakes are too hot before takeoff you don't have enough capacity left to do an RTO if required. Yes, it does. The brakes' ability to abso
38 Post contains images peterjohns : Hi there That might be right for car brakes, but the modern stack carbon brakes actually brake even better when hot!! The carbon/carbon composite is
39 SixtySeven : Someone said something about an MEL. They are absolutely right. You have a deactivated brake- they call it capped in the Boeing world. Could be due to
40 Post contains images peterjohns : See- that´s what we ATC guys are there for. If nobody looks after the Pilots and tell them what to do, they tend to do all sort of funny things...
41 longhauler : Actually they are not as alike as you may think. Retracting gear on take-off is almost rote, as many on here have stated. Positive rate ... gear up.
42 SixtySeven : Yes Peter! Always a good idea to keep at least one eye on us pilots at all times!! Despite the good natured rivalry we pilots and ATC types are alway
43 Post contains images peterjohns : Ha Ha- you can´t get me on that one- may I remind you of Oct 21st 09 , NWA 188 to Minneapolis...
44 AR385 : You are the expert in the subject, of course, and I won´t be so arrogant as to argue with you. I understand what you are saying, and the purpose of
45 zeke : The reason for leaving the gear down like this is normally for a deactivated brake. We leave the gear down to let the wheels spin down so they are not
46 Norcal773 : This is the problem with A.Net today. We have A330 pilots here who state over and over again what the reason for leaving it down is and then we have
47 longhauler : I agree with you completely. Never is a very powerful word. (I am not the one that said "never".) It is more like, "There but for the grace of God ..
48 tdscanuck : There is a difference between how well they brake (how fast they can decelerate the aircraft, which is how much torque the brake can apply) and braki
49 Post contains images JBirdAV8r : I thought it would be obvious that "never" meant "statistically insignificant chance." However, since the game of semantics is quite popular on A.net
50 brilondon : Then the above posts stating that they needed to cool the brakes is true without alerting the ATC as to the reason why would lead one to believe that
51 SixtySeven : Not at all. they may have been warm from the previous landing. Long taxi. Heavy TOW's I always take a quick look at the brake temps before going into
52 Post contains links longhauler : That is what I used to think, until someone on here pointed out this incident to me: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19730808-0
53 AR385 : MX 940 comes to mind.
54 Post contains links longhauler : Yes, remember this thread? Longest B727 Route? (by willyknut Jan 2 2012 in Aviation Polls) It was you that corrected me to note that in fact 81 peopl
55 SixtySeven : Lucky lucky. A lifelong friend of mine was the F/O of Nigeria 2120. Things did not work out as well. Godspeed KD. Miss you brother.
56 AR385 : Wow, I did not remember I did that. They were very lucky though.
57 longhauler : KD was one of my first F/Os at Wardair. I only flew with him a few times, and met his Dad once when he joined us on a long layover in Paris. But I ho
58 SixtySeven : The whole thing was a mess. Like the reasons model. The holes just kept lining up and they were just that little bit away from making a decision that
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