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Rumour: Spirit Airlines Buying Frontier Airlines?  
User currently offlinewnflyguy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2011, 452 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 22878 times:

Rumor is Spirit has signed a letter of intent to Buy all assets of F9 from RJET.
Formal Press release is rumored to be coming out in the next 2 weeks.
If true I wish all the F9 employees best of luck.
Now any speculation on What's going to be kept?
wnfg 


my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
83 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1829 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 22851 times:
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I so hope this isn't true, with there being so many mergers and the loss of airlines, we don't need to loose one more. All this does is eliminate another airline and make Spirit aka Ryanair USA bigger. The only consolation is that perhaps like the WN/FL merger maybe it will take years for NK to canabilize F9.

[Edited 2012-12-10 18:08:58]


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User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3638 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 22627 times:

In a merged F9/NK, I could see less DEN growth and more growth at DFW, at West Coast airports, and in Florida (where both NK and F9 have been growing as of late).

Both F9 and NK have substantial A32x delivery books including NEOs, but aren't NK's Airbuses IAE-powered and F9's powered by CFM? (Though I think both chose Pratts for their NEOs.) Also, would the substantial F9 C-Series order be toast, or would it be used as ammunition against fellow ULCC G4 at smaller airports?



I don't work for FWA, their tenants, or their ad agency. But I still love FWA.
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3175 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 22155 times:

It is fitting with the direction Spirit has gone lately...lot's of mid continent, domestic growth.

This has been rumored for a while


User currently offlinewnflyguy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2011, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 21938 times:

If this rumor turns out to be true this will be a great match up of networks.
Spirit Airlines "a animal of a new Low cost frontier."
Keep the Billboard look with S P I R I T and Animals on the tail.
I can see MDW being dropped for ORD. SFO for OAK.
wnfg  



my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 1150 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 21770 times:

I'd love to see F9 stick around. It seems like they are the only airline that passengers actually like and hardly no one on this website complains about.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 4):
The C-series order is Republic's and they have confirmed that no matter what they aren't going to F9.

Then what the hell are they for then!? Is Republic gonna start their own "Republic Airlines"? Or what??? This CSeries order has kept me confused for a long time.



Я говорю по-русский. :)
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 21399 times:

Quoting wnflyguy (Thread starter):
Rumor is Spirit has signed a letter of intent to Buy all assets of F9 from RJET.
Formal Press release is rumored to be coming out in the next 2 weeks.
If true I wish all the F9 employees best of luck.
Now any speculation on What's going to be kept?
wnfg
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 3):
In a merged F9/NK, I could see less DEN growth and more growth at DFW, at West Coast airports, and in Florida (where both NK and F9 have been growing as of late).

If true it is a mercy killing...

I wouldn't expect much of F9 to be retained. I'm not sure why NK would even do it. F9 isn't in their way and they don't have anything of value to NK. It would have to be a deal for almost no money I'd think.


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1280 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 21344 times:

If this happens this will benefit UA and WN greatly. The F9 brand would likely be wiped out and some big network changes would happen. I'd say that many F9 fliers would move to UA and WN and NK will get the passengers they aim for, the ones that won't fly unless its dirt cheap.

Plus if NK still doesn't want to operate out of DCA the 4 F9 out of perimeter slots would go up for auction benefiting whatever airline(s) wins them.

Quoting enilria (Reply 12):
and they don't have anything of value to NK.

I think that goes alittle to far to say no value but very little would be true. NK would get a good amount of Airbus aircraft and more LGA slots. The only reason I think this would happen is because NK wants planes to expand and Republic wants F9 gone before anything goes bad after they worked to make things go alright.

[Edited 2012-12-10 20:50:26]


You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24635 posts, RR: 86
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 21276 times:
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Quoting airliner371 (Reply 13):
NK would get a good amount of Airbus aircraft and more LGA slots.

Spirit has its own big Airbus order (75?) and Frontier has very few LGA slots.

I can't see what value this supposed deal would be to Republic - unless it was for quite a lot of money.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 21229 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 13):
Quoting enilria (Reply 12):
and they don't have anything of value to NK.

I think that goes alittle to far to say no value but very little would be true. NK would get a good amount of Airbus aircraft and more LGA slots. The only reason I think this would happen is because NK wants planes to expand and Republic wants F9 gone before anything goes bad after they worked to make things go alright.

They really don't. F9's only real asset is DCA-DEN authority and NK just closed DCA...and they can't sell it to WN. Airbus 319s and 320s are dirt cheap. They could easily get planes if they wanted them. F9's fleet isn't special in any way.

Republic would take any offer for RJET. There is a huge fare ware going on in DEN right now (the last week or so) with fares as long a $14  and I'm sure that got Bedford's attention. WN decided to stop ignoring NK and take a stand by matching them. It's a financial disaster. I can see NK buying F9 to stick it in WN's eye and eliminate F9, but I don't think it makes much sense unless it is basically free. F9 has been shopped to NK before and NK has said no. The only thing that has changed is that NK entered DEN which seemingly makes a deal less likely. In the last week F9 exited AZA where they overlapped with NK and NK added DEN-DTW overlapping F9. There's definitely sparring going on. It doesn't seem like a very pleasant game for two partners.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 21187 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 7):
Coming from someone at AS.

Nice try. I'm not at AS.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 7):
Well if you read the thread there is rather new information on a possible letter of intent.

This isn't new info. This is a rumor. A RUMOR. Big difference. I don't see a valid source to said rumor. I take this with an aircraft carrier load of salt until then.

So, got a deeply crediable source that we an analyze on, airliner371?



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinedbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 861 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 21171 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 15):
In the last week F9 exited AZA where they overlapped with NK and NK added DEN-DTW overlapping F9.

I thought F9 is operating DEN-AZA seasonally..so not necessarily exiting the market.


User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 21051 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 13):

Plus if NK still doesn't want to operate out of DCA the 4 F9 out of perimeter slots would go up for auction benefiting whatever airline(s) wins them.

Minor correction, but F9 only has three pairs of beyond perimeter slots.


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1280 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 21056 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):
Nice try. I'm not at AS.

Not just employee to employee but fan to fan and employee to fan. Of course there are nice employees and fans of AS, I am just generalizing. Frankly its easier for a fan or employee to just be nice in a conversation and not start by being rude to someone because the nice person is taken more seriously.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):
So, got a deeply crediable source that we an analyze on, airliner371?

Information is a rather poor choice of words on my part in that sentence. Replace it with rumor. You can say its not new etc... Everything is always evolving and new things always develop. My point of this sentence is let the thread play out (on topic) and see whats new.

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 18):
Minor correction, but F9 only has three pairs of beyond perimeter slots.

Typo, thanks for the correction.

[Edited 2012-12-10 21:39:56]


You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineAsteriskceo From United States of America, joined May 2004, 453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 18966 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 7):
Coming from someone at AS. Notice that all the hate between AS and WN comes from AS. WN people are just contributing but it's always the AS people that come in at hate. Not just you but multiple AS people. AS is in for some trouble if thats the culture they have.

I've stayed quiet in the past, but I have to agree. The bashing tends to come from the AS side, especially from AirframeAS. Apparently competition makes him bitter, or just threatened. Just stop trolling buddy; It's not attractive.   


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12418 posts, RR: 100
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 18812 times:
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Ironically, I think F9 would do well going to Spirit's ULCC model. It would be quite a transition, but a viable one. For Spirit, it taps them instandly into the DEN market. Worth it? That I'll let others debate. At least it has somewhat of a business case (unlike EY buying IT).

Quoting mariner (Reply 9):
There's an upside to everything.

   Touche'

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):
So, got a deeply crediable source that we an analyze on, airliner371?

Not required when the tile and OP post has followed a.net's guidelines on a rumor.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18624 times:

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 17):
Quoting enilria (Reply 15):
In the last week F9 exited AZA where they overlapped with NK and NK added DEN-DTW overlapping F9.

I thought F9 is operating DEN-AZA seasonally..so not necessarily exiting the market.

They had not said it was seasonal until now. That's a warning sign.

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 18):

Plus if NK still doesn't want to operate out of DCA the 4 F9 out of perimeter slots would go up for auction benefiting whatever airline(s) wins them.

Minor correction, but F9 only has three pairs of beyond perimeter slots.

Air21 beyond perimeter slots cannot be sold. They must be returned. Even in some mergers they have been surrendered due to the way the law is written.


User currently offlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18504 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 22):
Air21 beyond perimeter slots cannot be sold. They must be returned. Even in some mergers they have been surrendered due to the way the law is written.

I don't believe the 3x DCA-DEN are operated with Air21 slots...I think they're just perimeter exempted slots. Can someone confirm/deny/inform?

My apologies:

”Sec. 41718. Special rules for Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport

''(a) Beyond-Perimeter Exemptions.--The Secretary shall grant, by order, 12 exemptions from the application of sections 49104(a)(5), 49109, 49111(e), and 41714 of this title to air carriers to operate limited frequencies and aircraft on select routes between Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport and domestic hub airports and exemptions from the requirements of subparts K and S of part 93, Code of Federal Regulations, if the Secretary finds that the exemptions will--

(1) provide air transportation with domestic network benefits in areas beyond the perimeter described in that section;

(2) increase competition by new entrant air carriers or in multiple markets;

(3) not reduce travel options for communities served by small hub airports and medium hub airports within the perimeter described in section 49109; and

(4)not result in meaningfully increased travel delays. “


[Edited 2012-12-11 06:49:28]

User currently offlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18326 times:

Although now that I've gone and found that AIR21 definition...I can't fine the slot proceedings from this spring regarding the perimeter-exempt slots [WN to AUS, B6 to SJU, etc...] on regulations.gov ... indicating to me that they're considered different? Someone help!

User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1257 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18446 times:

IMHO I wish they would keep the F9 service model. F9 provides an outstanding product while Spirit is pretty much bare bones and has had a checkered past with customer service issues.


Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5095 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18452 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21):
Ironically, I think F9 would do well going to Spirit's ULCC model. It would be quite a transition, but a viable one.

Sadly, you may be right. But I am one occasional Frontier customer they would lose. Frontier is an attractive way to travel between DCA and the Pacific Northwest, and the fares are often excellent. But if the flights were operated using the Spirit model I would avoid booking them.



Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18478 times:
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somebody should have attempted to merge with F9 LONG before now.
F9 is a solid company and were Spirit to merge with them a second hub at a western Gateway city like Denver? Could be tremendously advantageous


User currently offlinemsp747 From United States of America, joined May 2010, 304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 17582 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21):
Ironically, I think F9 would do well going to Spirit's ULCC model. It would be quite a transition, but a viable one. For Spirit, it taps them instandly into the DEN market. Worth it? That I'll let others debate. At least it has somewhat of a business case (unlike EY buying IT).

I thought F9 was on the record as an airline trying to adopt the ultra low cost carrier way of business. They might not be as obnoxious about it as NK, but they do charge you now for everything, including seat assignments. To avoid the fees, you have to buy a higher class fare. I'm not complaining, since it seems to be helping them stabilize. Plus, they offer more services and more comfort than NK


User currently offlinemcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 17359 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 9):
There's an upside to everything.  

Good point and good post, thanks!


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 17183 times:

Quoting sdoyon (Reply 23):
I don't believe the 3x DCA-DEN are operated with Air21 slots...I think they're just perimeter exempted slots. Can someone confirm/deny/inform?

The newest beyond perimeter slots were not newly created slots, so they may be another category, but the beyond perimeter slots have never been transferable. AA was required to return TW's DCA-LAX slot and they merged. Since then the airlines have figured out a way to preserve them in mergers, but beyond perimeter slots have never been transferred by a slot sale/lease/transaction.


User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1802 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 17322 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 22):
Quoting dbo861 (Reply 17):
Quoting enilria (Reply 15):
In the last week F9 exited AZA where they overlapped with NK and NK added DEN-DTW overlapping F9.

I thought F9 is operating DEN-AZA seasonally..so not necessarily exiting the market.

They had not said it was seasonal until now. That's a warning sign.



I highly doubt those announcements are any indication of a potential merger. That would be considered collusion and both companies could be in serious trouble. Even if the merger was officially announced, both airlines would still be required to compete as separate entities until the merger has been approved & closed. If they started optimizing networks prior to full approval, both airlines could face repercussions from the government.


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2195 posts, RR: 9
Reply 26, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 17196 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 3):
but aren't NK's Airbuses IAE-powered and F9's powered by CFM?

Pretty much irrelevant, as mixing is seen in so many fleets and types anymore and engines are send off for repair, rather than running their own shop.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineb757capt From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 16965 times:

No one has said this but what keeps spirit from buying frontier and then keeping the frontier brand and image.

Spirit has taken a beating in the public forum. This might be an opportunity for them to get a better image.

[Edited 2012-12-11 09:52:39]

[Edited 2012-12-11 09:53:10]


The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
User currently offlineYNGguins From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 510 posts, RR: 1
Reply 28, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 16312 times:

We heard a similar rumor about Allegiant and Spirit and nothing came of it... I don't expect anything to come of this rumor either.


I am PROUD to live in the greatest country on earth: The United States of America!
User currently offlinejmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3242 posts, RR: 15
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15980 times:

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 1):
You cant post rumors, especially about such a sensitive topic...provide some backup or this thread should be locked ASAP!!

   Sounds like somebody has not been a part of a.net very long.



.......
User currently offlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15761 times:

Quoting PSA727LAX (Reply 36):
Why is this thread being commented on now? Posted Feb 2011 first reply wasn;t until 2012. There is also a thread about DL & VS merging that was started in 2004 then not replied too until 2012. (Ahem!!)

I think you might be looking in the wrong place. This thread was started about 18 hours ago. The initial poster [wnflyguy] joined in Feb 2011.


User currently offlinePSA727LAX From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15611 times:

Ahhhh! Thank you! I guess I was still smarting from having to ask the same question on an industry site for work (Wastewater Industry) where the thread was started in 2007 and then went silent after a few replies over the first couple days after posting only to find it crop up again today.

To this thread, rumors can cause serious issues that might end up being really bad for some folks. If in fact this is goin forward it would seem that Spirit has cleaned up their books or are they hoping an economy of scale with this possible merger/acquisition will keep them flying? Weren't they about to go belly up earlier this year?


User currently offlineCatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 2795 posts, RR: 3
Reply 32, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15463 times:

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 27):
somebody should have attempted to merge with F9 LONG before now.
F9 is a solid company and were Spirit to merge with them a second hub at a western Gateway city like Denver? Could be tremendously advantageous

B6 always seemed like the best matchup for F9 with the fleet commonality, similar onboard products and corporate culture. B6 would be able to synergize the F9 network into its own, gain a presence in the midwest and a hub in the mountain west, and compete on a larger scale than they are now.


User currently offlineProst From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 633 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15212 times:

Perhaps B6 are happy with the size and scale that they are? B6 has been quiet on all of the M&As that have been happening, perhaps their view is to grow organically, continue to offer exemplary service to their customers and be a great place to work?

Sounds like a sound strategy to me.


User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 15112 times:

I think this could be a VERY good move for both sides. I've flown boh numerous times and the F9 aircraft are some of the most comfortable planes I've been on (including DL, WN, B6, NK, etc...). However, F9 is not in the best of positions. NK could benefit from more aircraft, more slots at some slot-controlled airports. Sadly, however, if this were to happen, F9 would be gone, their beautifullivery would be toast, and their IFS would vanish. The aircraft would be transformed into regular NK aircraft, losing all thereason F9 is comfortable at all.         

User currently offlineCatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 2795 posts, RR: 3
Reply 35, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 14968 times:

Quoting Prost (Reply 38):
Perhaps B6 are happy with the size and scale that they are? B6 has been quiet on all of the M&As that have been happening, perhaps their view is to grow organically, continue to offer exemplary service to their customers and be a great place to work?

Sounds like a sound strategy to me.

Who was saying it wasn't a sound strategy?


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4482 posts, RR: 22
Reply 36, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14166 times:

Reposting some earlier comments that got zapped because someone else was bad. Left out the quote from the delete post...

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 7):
Coming from someone at AS. Notice that all the hate between AS and WN comes from AS. WN people are just contributing but it's always the AS people that come in at hate. Not just you but multiple AS people. AS is in for some trouble if thats the culture they have.

I don't really understand so much hate coming from AS. Any AS crew member I speak to is always wonderful and also very complimentary on our great non-rev treatment. There are always a few bad apples, that are normally vocal, in every bunch so I don't hold it against AS as a whole at all. I'll continue to be helpful and take care of AS non-revvers as I would any other customer - sometimes more so.  
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 10):
Then what!
the hell are they for then!? Is Republic gonna start their own "Republic Airlines"? Or what??? This CSeries order has kept me confused for a long time.

Could position Republic as a leasing agent for the C-Series to position them with other airlines that don't want to take a risk right away, but still have excellent delivery positions. Say for SnGs that American wanted a new aircraft to go between the CR7 and 738. Republic is then sitting on all these delivery slots for the new C-Series and it is getting rave reviews during proving flights. AA can go to Republic and work out a lease agreement for the aircraft, flown by AA crews, and try them out without having to order them themselves. Works out pretty well. That's just one scenario on how it could play out though.



Any opinion/comment posted is that of my own and not that of Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 37, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13999 times:

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 14):
The bashing tends to come from the AS side, especially from AirframeAS.

One Mo time, IM NOT FROM AS!!!!!!

Now, no bashing from me, I'm very pro-F9. I want to see F9 prosper, if you have seen ANY of my posts on any of the Frontier threads, my position speaks for itself.. However, F9 doesn't need NK. This NK rumor is highly ridiculous and this rumor has been brought up numerous times over and over and over on the Frontier threads before. I'm not sure exactly why the OP feels this is news when a source was not provided (or from anyone for that matter).....at all. This thread should be in polls and prefs forum, IMO.

If you want a troll, then look at a certain someone, cuz it ain't me. I'm pro-F9 as they come. To discredit me was highly inappropriate.

No one from AS hates F9, as far as I know. I want to make that very well known.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8091 posts, RR: 24
Reply 38, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13929 times:

Ugh, God I hope not. F9 isn't the best, but they're hugely more preferable than Spirit. We don't need any more 260 seat A320s around...


This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 39, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13642 times:

Summarizing my opinion, I don't think the schedule change indicates a merger. I think it indicates that NK is a problem for F9 in DEN and there were plenty of problems already.

As stated, I actually agree with Mariner that Spirit seems to gain nothing from this. F9 really has nothing of value except a few slots that NK probably doesn't want and only some of which can be sold. NK buying F9 would really be community service for the industry since most want F9 dead.

The only logic I can really see is that NK wants to get much bigger in DFW before AA exits and this might allow that. Even that is pretty doubtful as mergers take a year or two and they could get used aircraft pretty easily with fewer headaches.

All that being said, it's more likely than B6. B6 loathes competing in a situation like DEN. They attempt to control their hubs through slots and gates. They also compete less and less on price. DEN doesn't fit at all and once again planes are everywhere with no employee baggage.

If this turns out to be false, I think the tea leaves are saying RJET reverses itself and keeps F9. It's their only move.


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1280 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13575 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 39):
All that being said, it's more likely than B6. B6 loathes competing in a situation like DEN. They attempt to control their hubs through slots and gates. They also compete less and less on price. DEN doesn't fit at all and once again planes are everywhere with no employee baggage.

All that plus B6 has said they don't want to be part of any mergers. Now they can always change there mind but with all you said plus this, I agree, its a no for B6.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24635 posts, RR: 86
Reply 41, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13614 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 39):
NK buying F9 would really be community service for the industry since most want F9 dead.

Oh, come on.

I very much doubt that RJET shareholders - who are the only people that matter here - want Frontier dead and if the CEO gave the airline away for chump change, as you claim, I suspect he might face some justifiable shareholder anger - unless there was some clear and compelling value to the deal.

mariner

[Edited 2012-12-11 16:43:59]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1081 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13400 times:

Quoting Catiii (Reply 32):
B6 always seemed like the best matchup for F9 with the fleet commonality, similar onboard products and corporate culture. B6 would be able to synergize the F9 network into its own, gain a presence in the midwest and a hub in the mountain west, and compete on a larger scale than they are now.

Apparently, F9 has been pitched to B6 on several occasions, but B6 has turned them down.

Quoting Prost (Reply 33):
Perhaps B6 are happy with the size and scale that they are? B6 has been quiet on all of the M&As that have been happening, perhaps their view is to grow organically, continue to offer exemplary service to their customers and be a great place to work?

Sounds like a sound strategy to me.

Somebody has to pick up the LGA/DCA slots when NK/F9 tosses them out! That strategy has worked for B6 so far.



These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2221 posts, RR: 3
Reply 43, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13214 times:

I really hope this isnt true...or if it is, NK keeps the smaller stations open. F9 is doing a good job at connecting some smaller markets ignored by the likes of WN and B6. If NK should merge with anyone they should do it with G4, they seem to have the same operating strategy. Make G4 a nationwide Ultra low cost carrier.

User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1081 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13098 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 44):
I really hope this isnt true...or if it is, NK keeps the smaller stations open. F9 is doing a good job at connecting some smaller markets ignored by the likes of WN and B6. If NK should merge with anyone they should do it with G4, they seem to have the same operating strategy. Make G4 a nationwide Ultra low cost carrier.

But hasnt F9 been attempting to re-brand themselves as an ultra low cost carrier? I remember reading some press releases to that effect from F9.

Whatever F9 has been doing in the past hasnt worked. They have been grasping at straws (MSY, TTN) lately.



These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2221 posts, RR: 3
Reply 45, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12642 times:

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 45):

But hasnt F9 been attempting to re-brand themselves as an ultra low cost carrier? I remember reading some press releases to that effect from F9.

Whatever F9 has been doing in the past hasnt worked. They have been grasping at straws (MSY, TTN) lately.

they are, but they still allow for a free bag of checked luggage and have directv on A320's


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6412 posts, RR: 51
Reply 46, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 12595 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 46):
they are, but they still allow for a free bag of checked luggage and have directv on A320's

Free bag at select fare levels. If you buy the least expensive ticket, the first bag is $25.



Next trip: MSY-SEA-GEG-SEA-LWS-BOI-PDX-SEA-LAS on AS
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12418 posts, RR: 100
Reply 47, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12363 times:
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Quoting msp747 (Reply 22):
Plus, they offer more services and more comfort than NK

Which means they aren't ULCC (too few seats). I think F9 could make more money as a true ULCC. I know many here do not want to see them establish in the US, but they have (e.g., Spirit and Allergiant).

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 26):
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 3):
but aren't NK's Airbuses IAE-powered and F9's powered by CFM?

Pretty much irrelevant, as mixing is seen in so many fleets and types anymore and engines are send off for repair, rather than running their own shop.

Agreed. It is not like 30 years ago where the airline had to have a whole supply chain just for the engines. Mixed engine types are an easy thing to deal with in a merger with the way engines are serviced today.

Quoting Catiii (Reply 32):
B6 always seemed like the best matchup for F9 with the fleet commonality, similar onboard products and corporate culture.

B6 is allergic to the F9 unions. Which begs the question, how much of a union impact would this be for Spirit?

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 44):
Whatever F9 has been doing in the past hasnt worked. They have been grasping at straws (MSY, TTN) lately.

Sad but true. Perhaps it is time to shift the model?

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 913 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12311 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 43):
If NK should merge with anyone they should do it with G4, they seem to have the same operating strategy. Make G4 a nationwide Ultra low cost carrier.
G4 is a vacation company... They sell hotel rooms, show tickets, rental cars, and so forth

NK operates more like a normal airline then G4 does i.e connecting flights

I don't see them merging... To be honest I don't see NK merging with anyone, who wants them? They seem to ULCC for even G4.

Sad to see AZA-DEN service go seasonal though, what made this happen? They could not support a E190?

[Edited 2012-12-11 21:18:27]


PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 49, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12325 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 40):

Yes, B6 would only happen if it was some bizarre plan to park B6 E190s and harvest airplanes. I give that a 2% chance of happening. G4 or NK is probably their best shot. G4 is better than NK probably because their fleet is old and they are supposed to be getting Airbus right? Both have reason to eliminate F9. I still think the bad outweighs the good and if it were me I'd do neither deal with my money.

Quoting mariner (Reply 41):

Come on. Obviously Frontier and it's owners don't want Frontier dead. That's obvious. They want money from it.

The rest of the industry sees Denver as a bubble that will burst and most think F9 going away would accomplish that. UA closing the hub would also, but that's not happening.

In general, as anybody who listens to airline earnings calls or Wall Street guidance knows, they all want less capacity in the industry. F9 being liquidated is one way of that happening.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24635 posts, RR: 86
Reply 50, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12282 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 49):
Come on. Obviously Frontier and it's owners don't want Frontier dead.

And - once again - in this instance, they are the only people that matter.

mariner

[Edited 2012-12-11 21:28:15]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 51, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12259 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 50):

As I said they want money. If NK pays them money to kill F9 they will happily take it. NK isnt going to give BB $100m. $50m, maybe. I just don't see why NK would do a favor like that for WN and UA. Of course, I've yet to figure out why WN bought FL to gift ATL and FL's fleet to DL...but then again maybe these mega-million execs are smarter than little ole me.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24635 posts, RR: 86
Reply 52, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12253 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 51):
As I said they want money

I haven't argued with that. You were the one who said:

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
It would have to be a deal for almost no money I'd think.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1281 posts, RR: 3
Reply 53, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12230 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 2):

Both F9 and NK have substantial A32x delivery books including NEOs, but aren't NK's Airbuses IAE-powered and F9's powered by CFM? (Though I think both chose Pratts for their NEOs.)

That's a great big non-issue. US had no such problems and they operate lots of both.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):

Ironically, I think F9 would do well going to Spirit's ULCC model. It would be quite a transition, but a viable one.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm... Not so fast with that one. F9 may be losing market share, but there's no promise whatsoever that this can be replaced by enough of the NK crowd. See below.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 20):

But I am one occasional Frontier customer they would lose. Frontier is an attractive way to travel between DCA and the Pacific Northwest, and the fares are often excellent. But if the flights were operated using the Spirit model I would avoid booking them.

I think you're not alone. I book with NK only when circumstances very carefully allow for it, eg, at least $200 less than the next fare, bigger front seats available, and I have enough supplies at the other end not to need to pack. Those are ANDs, not ORs. This almost never happens, of course, and like most regular travelers, I'll pay a little more, for a little more.

There's enough room in the ULCC market for NK, but only just for now. Much of their business relies on a combination of what I said above, and 1st timers who don't know better. NK can make this work because they're incredibly flexible, not because it's actually a viable business model. This would never be true for F9 (on their own as suggested above), and even NK themselves will have to adapt again at some point in the future when this well inevitably dries up.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 37):

One Mo time, IM NOT FROM AS!!!!!!

You work at UA, right? I think I saw that in a post somewhere. About a year ago, I changed my username because it reflected a job I no longer do at a company I no longer work for. No matter how much you try to explain your case, either you'll have to get used to it, or change your name. Just how it is here...



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1829 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12170 times:
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There have been a few misstatments about F9s fees.

1. F9 only charges for seats if you purchase thru a 3rd party like Travelocity or Expedia.
2. Classic Fares which cost between $25-35 more each way get you 2 free bags, no change fee, and free DirecTv where available

Glad to see F9 "grasping at straws" as I will be enjoying a TTN-MCO trip in late Jan



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24635 posts, RR: 86
Reply 55, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12197 times:
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Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 54):
Glad to see F9 "grasping at straws" as I will be enjoying a TTN-MCO trip in late Jan

I'm with you. If TTN-MCO is a straw, Frontier should clutch a few more of 'em.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesanti319 From Mexico, joined Dec 2005, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 12121 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 48):
I don't see them merging... To be honest I don't see NK merging with anyone, who wants them? They seem to ULCC for even G4.

I know who wants them?? They are the most profitable airline in the US, with zero debt.... Who in their right mind would want that ???


User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5266 posts, RR: 29
Reply 57, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 12050 times:

I think G4 is a better fit for Frontier but I don't see it happening. NK seems different than anyone.

Total sidenote, but I was just checking fares online for a Seattle-Houston trip in February. I decided to check NK out of Portland in case it was cheaper to drive there and park. Well, the fare wasn't anything crazy cheap but what was interesting was it offered am itinerary with 3plane changes: PDX-SAN/SAN-LAS/LAS-DFW/DFW-IAH!

...pass...

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 12
Reply 58, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 12032 times:

I have to admit I know NOTHING about anything that F9 does anymore, I am kept far too busy to even look at this sight lately but that would be upsetting. Even though it would benefit my company a great deal it would be sad to see F9 gone from DEN. It was hard enough when they took HQ to IND, if NK were to buy them loyal passengers would have lost everything that they have to be loyal too.


/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 59, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 11607 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 52):

$50 million is pretty much nothing. That's like 1 new plane. $100 m is too much I suspect, but who knows...


User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 913 posts, RR: 1
Reply 60, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 11439 times:

Quoting santi319 (Reply 56):

G4 and NK are different. G4 is a travel company that has a ULLC airline subsidiary. NK is just a ULCC. I don't see them merging.



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3761 posts, RR: 8
Reply 61, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 11322 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 54):
Glad to see F9 "grasping at straws" as I will be enjoying a TTN-MCO trip in late Jan
Quoting mariner (Reply 55):
I'm with you. If TTN-MCO is a straw, Frontier should clutch a few more of 'em.  

The post you are referencing appeared to be talking about the MSY-TTN route.. which is a straw if there ever were one.


User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 62, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 11249 times:

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 53):
There's enough room in the ULCC market for NK, but only just for now. Much of their business relies on a combination of what I said above, and 1st timers who don't know better. NK can make this work because they're incredibly flexible, not because it's actually a viable business model. This would never be true for F9 (on their own as suggested above), and even NK themselves will have to adapt again at some point in the future when this well inevitably dries up.

That's just not true ... NK has created its own niche ULCC market as have other airlines in the US and around the world. NK is incredibly profitable, as is Ryanair. I love comfort, etc., but I've flown on NK and Ryanair several times and they are just fine. NK's model is not based on "1st timers who don't know better." ....


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24635 posts, RR: 86
Reply 63, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 11152 times:
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Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 61):
The post you are referencing appeared to be talking about the MSY-TTN route.. which is a straw if there ever were one.

Then perhaps we should define "straws"?

At the moment there isn't much (or indeed any) recent track record out of TTN, beyond the very new MCO - and there was considerable doubt expressed here that TTN-MCO would work.

So anywhere is a something of an unknown and I see MSY as a sensible move to establish what the airport can support.

It may prove to be only Florida, but at this stage I don't even know if all those new routes will work, although I wouldn't fall over in shock to see an additional frequency added to at least one of them.

I don't see it as "clutching at straws" to find out, but it depends on your point of view, I guess.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1081 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 11150 times:

I was also talking about this:

http://newfrontierairlines.com/

A330s out of MSY... uhh no. The whole thing was a marketing scam by the local authorities to drum up business for the airport, and F9 took the bait. Im all for increased service out of MSY, but A330s to anywhere is a stretch.



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User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24635 posts, RR: 86
Reply 65, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 11193 times:
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Quoting flyby519 (Reply 64):
A330s out of MSY... uhh no. The whole thing was a marketing scam by the local authorities to drum up business for the airport, and F9 took the bait.

How did Frontier "take the bait"?

Frontier immediately issued a statement to the staff saying there had been no discussions of any kind with that entity.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 66, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 10991 times:

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 61):

MSY-TTN has like a 7% chance or survival. Surprised they'd take a flyer on it. TTN-Florida will be hard enough.


User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3761 posts, RR: 8
Reply 67, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 10971 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 63):
and there was considerable doubt expressed here that TTN-MCO would work.

There was, but it is MCO. look at all of the areas that have MCO or SFB service and it makes sense that any airport with a decent population could make that route work at least a few times a week.

Quoting mariner (Reply 63):
So anywhere is a something of an unknown and I see MSY as a sensible move to establish what the airport can support.

I don't see airlines doing that kind of experimenting with real airplanes much. We're seemingly in an era of only adding routes that are paid for or almost sure things

Quoting mariner (Reply 63):
I don't see it as "clutching at straws" to find out, but it depends on your point of view, I guess.

What other airlines are going around testing the viability of a city by giving it a route to "test" it's full potential? That would imply that they know there are other routes from MSY that would perform better, but they want to see how far they can push their luck. I give F9 credit for willingness to try new things, really I do. Hats off to any airline willing to make moves and not sit on their ancient network for years.

I just feel like there has to be a better opportunity out there for them than MSY-TTN. Even from TTN. You can only optimize your fleet and schedule so much, but was that really the best place possible to put that airplane?


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6412 posts, RR: 51
Reply 68, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 10914 times:

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 64):
I was also talking about this:

http://newfrontierairlines.com/

A330s out of MSY... uhh no. The whole thing was a marketing scam by the local authorities to drum up business for the airport, and F9 took the bait. Im all for increased service out of MSY, but A330s to anywhere is a stretch.

That proposal needed the city of New Orleans and the New Orleans Aviation Board to get behind the deal, but that didn't happen. It's dead in the water. The guy proposing this could never give the airport hard route analysis data.

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 67):
I just feel like there has to be a better opportunity out there for them than MSY-TTN

Many more better and obvious choices out of MSY based on O&D alone, but hey, if F9 can make this work, more power to them. I for one hope this leads to more P2P MSY flying down the road. In regards to TTN-MSY, obviously the route planners saw "something" they liked in terms of this city pair. We'll just have to see. I'm glad it's starting though. At least it's something original.



Next trip: MSY-SEA-GEG-SEA-LWS-BOI-PDX-SEA-LAS on AS
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24635 posts, RR: 86
Reply 69, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 10722 times:
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Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 67):
I don't see airlines doing that kind of experimenting with real airplanes much. We're seemingly in an era of only adding routes that are paid for or almost sure things
Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 67):
What other airlines are going around testing the viability of a city by giving it a route to "test" it's full potential?

I don't know, I don't follow too many other airlines in as much detail. I know Air New Zealand tried it with AKL-PEK, which didn't work, and many thought the same of the airline's AKL-DPS - which did work.

I know that Allegiant said, of some of its new HNL routes, "we're still learning."

I don't pretend to "an industry overview" and I can't predict the future - in my own business I would have been wrong in far too many instances (and right in some surprising instances).

I certainly don't set myself up as judge and jury, I don't have that much hubris. i just have a good time, following an airline that has always been a great ride for me.

mariner

[Edited 2012-12-12 15:56:46]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1829 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 10652 times:
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Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 61):
The post you are referencing appeared to be talking about the MSY-TTN route.. which is a straw if there ever were one.

Yeah, that I'll agree is a straw. When it most likely fails F9 will probably add Mondays to MCO and Fridays to a route that is doing well such as RSW,TPA or FLL. Or I guess it could make MCO 2X on Fridays if it was really doing well.

[Edited 2012-12-12 16:17:56]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineMKENut From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 71, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 10307 times:

I'm on the fence on this one but I always thought that Frontier was going after the ULCC Model because Republic wants to sell to the likes of Spirit Airlines. Also, why would Spirit want Frontier when they are on the hook for gate leases at MKE that are not being used? When all the shuffling is done at MKE and Concourse E is shuttered.... Those are the gates that Frontier will be paying for until the lease agreement expires.

User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3235 posts, RR: 9
Reply 72, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 10255 times:

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 53):
Mmmmmmmmmmmmm... Not so fast with that one. F9 may be losing market share, but there's no promise whatsoever that this can be replaced by enough of the NK crowd. See below.

But F9 has already said that they want to transition to the ULCC business model, because it's more viable than their present one.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 53):
There's enough room in the ULCC market for NK, but only just for now. Much of their business relies on a combination of what I said above, and 1st timers who don't know better. NK can make this work because they're incredibly flexible, not because it's actually a viable business model. This would never be true for F9 (on their own as suggested above), and even NK themselves will have to adapt again at some point in the future when this well inevitably dries up.

Considering how long FR has been making this work across the pond, I'd say that NK has a good amount of time left before the well "inevitably" dries up.

NK was the first airline to charge for checked baggage, and baggage fees are now standard across the industry (with the notable exception of WN). The reason most A.netters panic every time NK introduces a new fee is precisely because they know that NK will be making tons of money off of it, and other airlines are going to take notice. G4 will soon be charging for carry-on bags as well.


User currently offlinesanti319 From Mexico, joined Dec 2005, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 10241 times:

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 72):
Considering how long FR has been making this work across the pond, I'd say that NK has a good amount of time left before the well "inevitably" dries up.

NK was the first airline to charge for checked baggage, and baggage fees are now standard across the industry (with the notable exception of WN). The reason most A.netters panic every time NK introduces a new fee is precisely because they know that NK will be making tons of money off of it, and other airlines are going to take notice. G4 will soon be charging for carry-on bags as well.

Couldn't have said it better myself! Let's not forget Ryanair is the #1 carrier in terms of passenger movements in Europe (hint, hint!)


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 74, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 10207 times:

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 72):
But F9 has already said that they want to transition to the ULCC business model, because it's more viable than their present one.

True, but that doesn't mean that they're going to merge with Spirit. Going to the ULCC model doesn't suggest a merger.....at all.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 75, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 10162 times:

Quoting MKENut (Reply 71):

The most money is in an IPO and the only successful-Ish IPO in recent times in the airline business is NK's IPO. So, they are emulating that. Other carriers are trying to get funding including F9. They haven't succeeded. in reality, the only airlines with "good" ROI are DL, G4, and NK. So you can see what they are targeting.

It has the side benefit of possibly interesting G4 or NK if either think the isn't room for 3 ULCCs.


User currently offlineairlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week ago) and read 10005 times:

What's the likelihood of this actually happening?

I think it could be a good match, though. We could potentially see our first true nation-wide ULCC. F9 would be less DEN-centric and NK would have an opportunity to have a larger presence in the west. A competitor would be eliminated. The Airbus fleets are compatible. NK strikes me as more up-and-coming and better able to take on WN than F9. The DEN hub would probably be scaled back, but still a significant presence. I'm sure WN and UA would be happy with it.

But I'll believe it when and if it happens.


User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 903 posts, RR: 1
Reply 77, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9464 times:

Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 76):
I think it could be a good match, though. We could potentially see our first true nation-wide ULCC. F9 would be less DEN-centric and NK would have an opportunity to have a larger presence in the west. A competitor would be eliminated. The Airbus fleets are compatible. NK strikes me as more up-and-coming and better able to take on WN than F9. The DEN hub would probably be scaled back, but still a significant presence. I'm sure WN and UA would be happy with it.

But I'll believe it when and if it happens.

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm as skeptical as you...maybe almost too good to be true. But it would create an impressive ULCC force in the U.S. A combined NK/F9 has a lot of synergies for fleets and networks alike, and the network is probably one of two big advantages that WN has over NK right now. The other is reputation, I suppose, which NK cannot and will not change. But it's been clear that NK's status as a cheapskate airline doesn't change how strong its operating margins are right now.



'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3235 posts, RR: 9
Reply 78, posted (1 year 4 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9320 times:

Quoting N908AW (Reply 77):
I agree wholeheartedly. I'm as skeptical as you...maybe almost too good to be true. But it would create an impressive ULCC force in the U.S. A combined NK/F9 has a lot of synergies for fleets and networks alike, and the network is probably one of two big advantages that WN has over NK right now. The other is reputation, I suppose, which NK cannot and will not change. But it's been clear that NK's status as a cheapskate airline doesn't change how strong its operating margins are right now.

I don't know if it would be wise for NK to go directly against WN. Right now, NK seems to be doing pretty well flying mostly under the radar of the other major airlines by only operating one or two daily flights on its new routes and equally siphoning passengers from both other airlines and the highways.

Even if an F9/NK merger was to go through and NK kept the F9 brand, their business model would quickly catch up to them in terms of reputation, as it seems like most the the country isn't yet fully ready for a true ULCC. As you've pointed out, NK doesn't give a damn about their public perception (and their financial performance shows that they don't need to), because the customers "will be back when we save [them] a penny," to paraphrase the CEO.


User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 903 posts, RR: 1
Reply 79, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 9171 times:

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 78):
I don't know if it would be wise for NK to go directly against WN. Right now, NK seems to be doing pretty well flying mostly under the radar of the other major airlines by only operating one or two daily flights on its new routes and equally siphoning passengers from both other airlines and the highways.

True and true. I don't think NK is in much of a position to go "directly" against anybody. The scale just isn't there and might not be even with F9. What F9 brings to the table is more capacity to continue siphoning capacity across the nation, while also making NK a force in DEN (and to a lesser extent across the west). But as they do that, Spirit will be exposing itself to a broader market, which has my skeptical side wondering how limited their growth is because of their reputation.

But as I'm sure I could say on behalf of many of us, we've been wrong about Spirit before.



'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1281 posts, RR: 3
Reply 80, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 9060 times:

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 62):
NK's model is not based on "1st timers who don't know better." ....

They cater mainly to leisure markets and really don't support connections well.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 62):
NK is incredibly profitable, as is Ryanair. I love comfort, etc., but I've flown on NK and Ryanair several times and they are just fine.

But you can't compare NK to FR. Their respective models are similar, but not enough to say they're the same. You have to bear in mind that there is no real equivalent to WN, B6, AS or VX in the EU. If there were, by now FR would be dealing with some serious heartburn.

NK does indeed print money here. But my contention is that that is due mainly to their virtually unheard of flexibility, and astonishingly efficient fleet utilization, and really not so much on the customer service model. It's not unreasonable to assume they could operate much as WN or B6 does in that regard and still be hugely profitable, provided they retain their own labor cost structure (do they have a station anywhere with ground ops other than MX not being outsourced?).

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 72):

But F9 has already said that they want to transition to the ULCC business model, because it's more viable than their present one.

No one's stopping them. But it's going to take more than that to change their fortunes. I say it's a gamble (for them) because they already have a decent customer base out of DEN. And given that there is a strong WN presence there, it's nothing like a certainty that they will be able to recover this after such a change, especially if WN is at all willing to grow that station given such an opportunity. As I said above, there is a lot more to NK's picture than just unbundling and super dense seating.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlinesanti319 From Mexico, joined Dec 2005, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8828 times:

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 80):
But you can't compare NK to FR. Their respective models are similar, but not enough to say they're the same. You have to bear in mind that there is no real equivalent to WN, B6, AS or VX in the EU. If there were, by now FR would be dealing with some serious heartburn.

Are you serious??

Vueling, Norwegian, Clickair (extinct) , flyBE, transavia, Wizzair, AirBerlin and Nikki and of course EASYJET!!! Those are the only ones comming on top of my head. Thats WAY more than just WN and B6 my friend!!


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6838 posts, RR: 14
Reply 82, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8789 times:

Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 76):
What's the likelihood of this actually happening?

If there is any truth to this it means one thing...that Bedford has lowered the price for F9. I know NK has shown no interest in buying F9, but it is believed BB wanted $100m. If the number is now $50m it may change things. Other than that I don't think it is any more likely than it has been in the past which is ZERO.


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1281 posts, RR: 3
Reply 83, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8493 times:

Quoting santi319 (Reply 81):
Thats WAY more than just WN and B6 my friend!!

Those all don't add up to one WN, so yes, the point remains. And then we have FL, B6, VX, & AS. There's a huge mid-class market here that, no, does not have an analog there.

And most of those, like EasyJet in particular, are also ULCCs like FR, so no, they're really not in the same LCC category that WN, B6, VX & AS, are. Hence why there is no meaningful gap in the EU between FR & the legacies.

Not to get too far from what I actually said, which is that simply being or becoming a ULCC isn't either a path to automatic success, or that soon everyone will be like that. If it were that easy, SkyBus would not have failed here.

Quoting santi319 (Reply 81):
Clickair (extinct) , flyBE,

FlyBe's a regional, and Clickair, extinct as you say, would therefore be completely irrelevant to this discussion as well.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
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