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IB And BA Drop San Juan (SJU)  
User currently offlineSKGSJULAX From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 84 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8383 times:
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Looks like the BA service to SJU was short-lived and that Iberia's precarious financial condition is finally forcing IB to end the long-running MAD-SJU service. The Puerto Rico Ports Authority claims that Condor (DE) is doing well and has shown no intention of exiting the route.

http://caribbeanbusinesspr.com/news/...direct-spain-pr-flights-79279.html

Maybe Virgin wil return to San Juan with a new cruise feeder contract. Lots of European cruise lines in the Port of San Juan this winter.


Omnium curiositatum explorator
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17537 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8327 times:

SJU fares to just about everywhere are terrible; I guess it's little surprise that MAD and LON aren't any good either


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7755 times:

How credible can this story be? Especially when it says,

"...but the carrier will continue to connect Spain and the Uruguayan capital through Miami.", utter nonsense.


User currently offlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 975 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7564 times:

Big whoop. European carriers did not serve SJU until relatively recently, and even then you really have to question such wisdom. This is no surprise, especially in light of the economy.

User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2093 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7361 times:

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 2):
How credible can this story be? Especially when it says,

"...but the carrier will continue to connect Spain and the Uruguayan capital through Miami.", utter nonsense.

Sounds like a codeshare agreement to me - IB MAD-MIA, then AA MIA-MVD, so IB is still able to connect Spain and Uruguay via MIA.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7335 times:

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 3):
Big whoop. European carriers did not serve SJU until relatively recently, and even then you really have to question such wisdom. This is no surprise, especially in light of the economy.

IB has served SJU for many years and they are a European carrier. If you do a photo search, you will see IB even used to fly 742s in there.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8386 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7269 times:
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Quoting yellowtail (Reply 5):
IB has served SJU for many years and they are a European carrier. If you do a photo search, you will see IB even used to fly 742s in there.

For many years San Juan was continued to Bogota since BOG could not have nonstops to MAD with Dc-10's and 747's. Since the A340 have been around SJU has been a terminating flights except for some to Santo Domingo. Its sad but the day has come when IB doesn't need to fly to the Capitol of every Spanich speaking country or territory in the Americas.


User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1139 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6831 times:

European carriers have served Puerto Rico in the past. SJU was served by LH (747, 744, DC10, A340) for nearly a decade, IB served SJU for over 50yrs! (747, DC10, A340s); BA flew to SJU as well prior to these last 2 years (747, DC10/L10 Caledonian brand), AF had a SJU-PPT-Paris (not sure CDG/ORY) on a 747 plus their interisland services ending up in PAP. KL also flew scheduled MD11s to SJU (unsure about dates), MP had charters 763s. Britannia also flew regular weekly charters 762s. Some carriers like IB and LH flew from SJU to cities like SDQ/BOG/SJO. During the late 80s and early 90s both IB and LH had mutliple weekly/daily service to SJU. IB and BA's recent move is not surprising, it's true IB is hurting but the PRican Tourism industry is in crisis and the uprising in crime in PRico sure doesn't attract tourists. SDQ will be OK since other European carriers fly there and offer flights to MAD. PRico lacks because the government has never promoted the creation of all-inclusive resorts in the island. It's a shame...PRican govt officials "celebrate" LCC's service to SJU like a big deal, they should have given incentives to major airlines to maintain service, create jobs and pump the economy...bad times in PR will only get worse!  . LCC's do not generate high-end tourism nor big spending traffic.

User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1139 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6820 times:

Condor is a pseudo-charter airline, the SJU connection might be in danger too...plus does DE has connecting agreements with other airlines?

User currently onlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32874 posts, RR: 71
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6653 times:

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 3):
Big whoop. European carriers did not serve SJU until relatively recently, and even then you really have to question such wisdom. This is no surprise, especially in light of the economy.

Iberia has served San Juan for decades; and so did British Airways until 2001, resuming again in 2011.



a.
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6576 times:

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 7):
.PRican govt officials "celebrate" LCC's service to SJU like a big deal, they should have given incentives to major airlines to maintain service, create jobs and pump the economy...bad times in PR will only get worse!  . LCC's do not generate high-end tourism nor big spending traffic.

I need to hire you to go talk to my tourism board clients! I tell them this all the time and they don't believe..mainly because they are under pressure from the hotels who believe that it is the high airfares that are the problem not their own marketing / positioning plan.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1139 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6358 times:

Yellowtail, hire me! Yes, it's pathetic! Losing a steady European flight from a major airline (oneworld) member is not good. A hub that doesn't grow dies!  . IB, BA, American Eagle all leaving PRico next Spring on the flip slide AA just added winter flights to/from SJU from DFW, ORD, JFK and MIA. Now SJU AA's terminal will look emptier after those airlines leave unless AA/US happens and US moves to AA terminal in SJU, who knows????

User currently offlineSKGSJULAX From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6323 times:
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Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 8):
Condor is a pseudo-charter airline, the SJU connection might be in danger too...plus does DE has connecting agreements with other airlines?

Condor sold me an SJU-FRA-FCO ticket last month with the FRA-FCO on LH and the connection was seamless.
On a previous trip, I flew SJU-FRA-ATH-SKG-FCO-DUS-FRA (buying the tickets separately, the transatlantic from condor.com and the rest from Expedia) and I had a similarly painless experience, despite my distaste for connections at FRA because of the enormous walking distances.

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 7):
the uprising in crime in PRico sure doesn't attract tourists.

Not to veer off-topic, but how many tourists have been involved in crimes in PR recently (not thefts/pickpockets, but hold-ups or injuries)

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 7):
LCC's do not generate high-end tourism nor big spending traffic.

I hear you! On this you are absolutely correct. Like the cruise ship traffic. Unless you own Senor Frogs across from the dock where the ships come in you don't make any money off the cruise ship pax. Hopefully the new government will focus on higher-end tourism.



Omnium curiositatum explorator
User currently offlineJosh32121 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6287 times:

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 4):
Sounds like a codeshare agreement to me - IB MAD-MIA, then AA MIA-MVD, so IB is still able to connect Spain and Uruguay via MIA.

But what does Uruguay have to do with Puerto Rico?


User currently offlineSKGSJULAX From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6244 times:
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Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 13):
But what does Uruguay have to do with Puerto Rico?

Nada. I believe the poster was commenting on the original article that says that IB is dropping service to MVD, but "will continue to service Uruguay through Miami." MVD, SJU, Havana, Santo Domingo, Cairo, Istanbul and Athens were all dropped by Iberia last week.



Omnium curiositatum explorator
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17537 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6163 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 10):
I need to hire you to go talk to my tourism board clients! I tell them this all the time and they don't believe..mainly because they are under pressure from the hotels who believe that it is the high airfares that are the problem not their own marketing / positioning plan.

That is such an important and misunderstood dynamic. SJU is quickly becoming an all-LCC airport, and that is not necessarily a bad thing, but it's very different from the connectivity and higher yield passengers the network carriers have access to. A place like SJU will likely take the LCC volume in stride, but something like BDA or BGI may have a tougher time.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2193 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6010 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
That is such an iportant and misunderstood dynamic. SJU is quickly becoming an all-LCC airport, and that is not necessarily a bad thing, but it's very different from the connectivity and higher yield passengers the network carriers have access to. A place like SJU will likely take the LCC volume in stride, but something like BDA or BGI may have a tougher time.

The market conditions have changed significantly for SJU.

Back when it used to be an AA hub, SJU filled a critical role for American by providing quick, 1-stop connections from the Eastern US seaboard (+DFW and a few others) to large volume tourist destinations (such as STT) or small, but high-yielding Islands in the Eastern Caribbean on prop jets. When AA acquired the EA hub at MIA, that function became obsolete.

The LCC infiltration also hit AA big time, particularly for VFR traffic heading between the US and the Island. B6, followed by a few others, strategically realized that there was sufficient demand for nonstop services to secondary Puerto Rican cities aside from SJU. That further put a dagger into the heart of AA.

So I would venture to say that it wasn't just SJU that became an LCC-dominated airport; rather, the entire Commonwealth has experienced large-volume LCC growth. The island is also pretty much pure tourism.

Despite this, flights from the US to Puerto Rico, at least in my experience, have been abhorrently expensive. It is also obnoxiously expensive from a vacationer standpoint - almost as bad as the Cayman Islands!

I also fail to notice many cultural ties between PR and Europe. To be truthful, if I were a European vacationer seeking a beach destination, Puerto Rico would not be high on my list. Not only are there plenty of similarly priced resort destinations closer to the European continent, but also there are several others in the Caribbean (such as Dominican Republic, Central America or Mexico) which are far cheaper and frankly, much nicer.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17537 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5953 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 16):
Despite this, flights from the US to Puerto Rico, at least in my experience, have been abhorrently expensive.

I don't know how that is physically possible. ORDSJU starts at $276rt plus fees/taxes, for a 2000+ mile flight. $344rt for LAXSJU, which is roughly Transatlantic in length. Where are you finding expensive fares to SJU?

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 16):
When AA acquired the EA hub at MIA, that function became obsolete.

There are still many islands that draw passengers at eye-watering fares that are totally inaccessible from MIA, like AXA, EIS, SVD until they get the new airport, etc.. A lot of these destinations prop(ped) up much of the AA trunk service to SJU. Without either part of that equation, it'll be interesting to see how the tourist industry will cope; other carriers have picked up the slack, but Cape Air, for example, is not going to replace what AA was offering only recently.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 957 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5879 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
I don't know how that is physically possible. ORDSJU starts at $276rt plus fees/taxes, for a 2000+ mile flight. $344rt for LAXSJU, which is roughly Transatlantic in length. Where are you finding expensive fares to SJU?

Absolutely. At least BOS-SJU (esp. with one-stop, B6's non-stops tend to be slightly pricier) is consistently quite cheap ($250-270 ai rt is easy to get). Which often means that it is only just $30-40 more expensive than a domestic sunny destination such as MIA/FLL/PBI. And certainly much much cheaper than any other major Caribbean island (SDQ, PAP, PUJ... not to talk about the minor islands) or BDA (which is roughly half the distance of SJU and a mid-$300s is a "very good" fare). I wish I would be able to book tickets to PLS or DR at the prices that PR is usually sold!


User currently offlineordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 709 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4964 times:

Fares for SJU from ORD are generally not too bad except for the holiday weeks in winter. From ORD to GND, POS and other Caribbean islands can easily be 600+.
Overall this is a smart move, I can not see many paying high fares for these tickets and with gas as it is. SJU is more of a middle class Caribbean spot. I do not doubt there would be cruise ship agreements, but still most cuise pax are not buying J tickets. IMHo makes much more sense to go to MIA then to SJU on AA


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2632 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4560 times:

There's a market between SJU and MAD.
But IB won't fly to SJU and have a tag-on to other destination because U.S, immigration issues.
Same IB pretty sure wouldn't fly MAD-SDQ-SJU even if it could because SDQ and SJU are different markets.
Don't know about Spaniards having holidays on SXM, but MAD-SXM-SJU may look interesting as a way to keep MAD and SJU linked.
Now, a question, does IB have any narrow-body with the range to fly between the Canary Islands and SJU?
If they have, there's a sizable Canarian community on Puerto RIco and routing MAD-TFS/LPA-SJU may solve some problems.
If AA had kept something on Puerto Rico, then AA flying SJU-MAD just a couple of days per week could have done OK.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineMFC From Spain, joined Feb 2006, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4395 times:

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 20):
Same ib pretty sure wouldn't fly MAD-SDQ-SJU even if it could because SDQ and SJU are different markets.

Iberia nowadays flies MAD-SJU-SDQ, they always do that on low season.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 20):
Now, a question, does ib have any narrow-body with the range to fly between the Canary Islands and SJU?

No they don't. Anyway, I'm not sure if there is a market between Canary Islands and SJU as there is to CCS or MIA. In any case, Iberia wants to focus on high yielding routes, and not only-tourism or migratory markets.



So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1139 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3764 times:

Wonder if seasonal MAD-SJU services would work while market conditions improve. Not sure Air Europa has enough planes to give it a try as an extension of its SDQ route. Air Europa is not known in Puerto Rico; IB has a loyal customer base in SJU especially because IB paxs earn AA Advantage miles and IB Premium passengers have access to AA Admirals Club in SJU. It is sad to see IB's era come to an end in SJU/Spanish Caribbean. Perhaps services on smaller and more efficient A330s could make IB return...

User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7275 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3568 times:

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 7):
...PRican govt officials "celebrate" LCC's service to SJU like a big deal, they should have given incentives to major airlines to maintain service, create jobs and pump the economy...bad times in PR will only get worse! . LCC's do not generate high-end tourism nor big spending traffic.
Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 11):
American Eagle all leaving PRico next Spring on the flip slide AA just added winter flights to/from SJU from DFW, ORD, JFK and MIA

Well it is a double edge sword, mainline carriers have usually pushed local governments for compensation to continue to ptovide airlift, when times are hard, local governments usually need to cut cost, enter LCC carriers who have been pushing for permission and were usually denied by the governments who were protecting their investments in mainline carriers.
This is the price paid for relying on carriers from countries so far away versus looking at regional carriers who actually live here versus visiting.

As for AA and SJU, I don't think LCC's had any effect on AA shutting down the operation, indeed a number of Caribbean countries who relied on the ATR's for service have now been left with nothing.


User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1139 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3485 times:

SJU no longer has a main role in AA's map...surely w/AA new Scope clause; jets such as larger Embraers could fly nonstop from MIA to some markets AA served on AE ATRs from Puerto Rico. FDF/PPT comes to mind.

25 par13del : The AA hub at SJU not only served as a transit point to MIA but a lot of folks simply travelled to SJU to shop, after 9/11 the requirement for US vis
26 guyanam : SJU suffered mightily from tightened US non immigrant visa requirements. They became more onerous to get and more expensive. Further in times past US
27 MaverickM11 : The LCCs made the majority of the operation nonviable, as the main volume of traffic going to/from/through SJU was/is price sensitive VFR traffic tha
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