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DL Acquiring 49% In VS  
User currently offlinemindscape From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 315 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 39783 times:

Delta Air Lines is going to invest $360M in acquiring 49% stakes in Virgin Atlantic from Singapore Airlines.
Press conference in preparation ! The aim is to obtain more access into LHR, and the brand VIRGIN ATLANTIC is to remain !

191 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinegdg9 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 651 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 39734 times:

Wow, thought the purchase price would be higher!

http://bit.ly/URCl2O


User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9390 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 39717 times:

Presser is this morning at New York Palace Hotel. It'll probably be available to listen in by phone or online ... I'll probably be there, but maybe I can pass along listen and log in information if anyone is interested before I head over.

Agreement will result in 31 peak flights a day between UK and North America.

Delta will get 3 seats on the Virgin board.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 39603 times:
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Quoting stlgph (Reply 2):
Agreement will result in 31 peak flights a day between UK and North America.

How many were there before?


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11711 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 39365 times:

Well now it's official. I still struggle to see how this is worth $360M to Delta - but Delta's management seems to think they know what they're doing!  

I don't expect regulatory approval to be too much of a struggle.

Regarding implementation, I think we can expect the two carriers to rapidly move to improve the joint JFK-LHR schedule where the two do currently overlap pretty closely. I also wonder what this will do for BOS-LHR, which is a market I don't think Delta has done all that great in but which Virgin has been serving for years and years. Beyond those two direct overlap routes, for sure this will also help Delta with both U.K. and U.S. POS, and it should definitely help with corporate accounts in certain key U.S. cities (SFO, IAD, MIA) that will now have a "Delta option" to LHR - although I doubt it will have too dramatic an impact in those cities, either, where other carriers (AA, BA, UA, etc.) are far larger and more entrenched.

Should be interesting to watch ...


User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 39369 times:

DL did get an amazing price for the 49% stake. Hypothetically speaking, If DL were to sell all the LHR slots based on historical prices, the value would be more than $360 million. All the value appears to be in the slots. This doesn't speak well for Virgin itself.

User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9390 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 39350 times:

Quoting VCy (Reply 3):

still chasing down exact numbers right now.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineSYDSpotter From Australia, joined Oct 2012, 171 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 39306 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
Well now it's official. I still struggle to see how this is worth $360M to Delta - but Delta's management seems to think they know what they're doing!

Well SQ bought the original 49% stake for £600m (~$900m) back in the day, so they've taken a hefty hit !!
I guess for SQ it at least frees up some cash.



319_320_321_332_333_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W
User currently offlinedocpepz From Singapore, joined May 2001, 1971 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 39258 times:

SQ paid GBP600 mil in 1999 - at GBP SGD exchange rates then it cost SGD1.8 bil (Today it would be SGD1.2 bil)
Today they sold it at GBP360 mil - at current USD SGD exchange rates it is SGD432 mil or just 24% of what they paid for it.

And if you factor the time value of money......


User currently offlineshilenb From UK - England, joined Oct 2012, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 39092 times:

Does this mean that VS will now join Skyteam?

User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5147 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 39026 times:

Great news! Can we expect VS codeshare on KLM AMS-MAN and LHR, and AF CDG-MAN and LHR? Will VS become Flying Blue partner? I really really hope so.

User currently offlineAlsatian From France, joined May 2005, 423 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 38960 times:

So something that the MEB3 won't get. Huge reorganisation for LHR terminals to come !


Ok I am French but I am not on strike
User currently offlineAirCanadaA330 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 38890 times:
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Quoting shilenb (Reply 9):
Does this mean that VS will now join Skyteam?

Yeah I am wondering the same thing. Wasnt there a post a few months ago stating that Star wanted VS?


Delta sure got a good deal.



Cheers;
User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5147 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 38845 times:

Quoting AirCanadaA330 (Reply 12):
Delta sure got a good deal.

Just a shame its not allowed to have 51%. If AF-KL get 2%, does that count for ownership as 51% together?


User currently offlineacelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 839 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 38766 times:

Wonder if any changes at MAN or GLA, would be nice to see more flights from these in time.
What about LGW, wonder what if anything might change there...

Unlike SQ who didn´t really take much interest in VS? I think Delta will be very hands
on. Long term I wonder if Virgin will get bought out completely...?



from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently onlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1857 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 38477 times:

So now will they be adding the VS logo to all those DL/AF/KL signs at the airport gates?

User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11711 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 38370 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 15):
So now will they be adding the VS logo to all those DL/AF/KL signs at the airport gates?

I'm not clear on whether Virgin will actually be joining the existing Delta-Air France-KLM JV, let alone SkyTeam, or just a separate JV with just Delta. I would think they would be included in the existing JV, but it doesn't seem clear from the press release.


User currently offlinegilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3032 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 38308 times:

Quoting KL911 (Reply 13):
If AF-KL get 2%, does that count for ownership as 51% together?

The other 51% is held by Virgin Group, which is not on the stock markets so they would need to manage to get Richard Branson to free that up, which I doubt he will allow...

I wonder how Air France and KLM feel, as it potentially means this new tie up will take traffic away from their AMS and CDG hubs on routes to America. Especially now Virgin are going into the domestic market, they could attract customers from EDI, ABD and MAN to fly through LHR and on to a Delta flight.

Also I wonder if this will mean VS becoming a member of SkyTeam, or just a DL Partner?

As I imagine SkyTeam members in Europe will not be too keen in competing with another member of the group to destinations in Asia and Africa, they already fly... Also VS will not bring a great deal to the party, offering no feeders in Europe to other SkyTeam hubs and just duplicating many routes, flown from FCO, PRG, CDG and AMS.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20679 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 38188 times:

Press release from DL out: http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1822

Highlights of the agreement include:

• A fully integrated joint venture that will operate on a "metal neutral" basis with both airlines sharing the costs and revenues from all joint venture flights.
• A combined trans-Atlantic network between the United Kingdom and North America with 31 peak-day round-trip flights.
• Enhanced benefits for customers including cooperation on services between New York and London, with a combined total of nine daily round-trip flights from London-Heathrow to John F. Kennedy International Airport and Newark Liberty International Airport.
• Reciprocal frequent flyer benefits.
• Shared access to Delta Sky Club and Virgin Atlantic Clubhouse airport lounges for elite passengers.

The last item looks great!  



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineby738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2334 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 38118 times:

Quoting acelanzarote (Reply 14):

Id say its less likely with everything getting funnelled through LHR


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4914 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 38063 times:
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Quoting commavia (Reply 16):
I'm not clear on whether Virgin will actually be joining the existing Delta-Air France-KLM JV, let alone SkyTeam, or just a separate JV with just Delta. I would think they would be included in the existing JV, but it doesn't seem clear from the press release.

I may be wrong, but I believe it's a new JV just between DL and VS - otherwise they would have mentioned the AF-KL-AZ JV in the press release; the press release also says "new joint venture". What this probably means is that the DL-operated flights to LHR (which currently carry the KL code as well), will now have KL and VS as codeshare partners, while the VS-operated LHR flights will only have DL as codeshare partner (not KL or AF).


User currently offlineLGWflyer From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2011, 2348 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 38030 times:

So with DL now having the 49% of Virgin, do you think there will be much change outside LHR, or any at all?

Also I wonder if DL should have stayed at LGW just a little longer...?



3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11711 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 37858 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 20):
I may be wrong, but I believe it's a new JV just between DL and VS - otherwise they would have mentioned the AF-KL-AZ JV in the press release; the press release also says "new joint venture". What this probably means is that the DL-operated flights to LHR (which currently carry the KL code as well), will now have KL and VS as codeshare partners, while the VS-operated LHR flights will only have DL as codeshare partner (not KL or AF).

True - that would make sense given the press release. Interesting to see how that is handled, though, with the proprietary information sharing and everything else, given that Delta would then essentially have two different - and, ultimately, competing - JVs both "operating" the same flight.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4499 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 37626 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
I think we can expect the two carriers to rapidly move to improve the joint JFK-LHR schedule where the two do currently overlap pretty closely. I also wonder what this will do for BOS-LHR,

And I wonder if this means they'll end EWR-LHR.

Quoting shilenb (Reply 9):
Does this mean that VS will now join Skyteam?

Would seem to make sense that they would, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 37516 times:

Quoting KL911 (Reply 13):
Just a shame its not allowed to have 51%. If AF-KL get 2%, does that count for ownership as 51% together?

Bransons stake was never up for sale.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 23):

And I wonder if this means they'll end EWR-LHR.

I would presume VS will continue to operate from that market as they have done for the last 28 years! They have just opened a brand new lounge there less than a month ago.


User currently offlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4391 posts, RR: 19
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 39020 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 22):
True - that would make sense given the press release. Interesting to see how that is handled, though, with the proprietary information sharing and everything else, given that Delta would then essentially have two different - and, ultimately, competing - JVs both "operating" the same flight.

If VS is not brought into the existing Skyteam TATL JV, I expect the latter to be modified to create a "carve out" for LHR/LGW such that the SkyTeam partners would not cooperate on London flying.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlinetjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2453 posts, RR: 3
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 38945 times:

Quoting shilenb (Reply 9):
Does this mean that VS will now join Skyteam?
Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 21):
So with DL now having the 49% of Virgin, do you think there will be much change outside LHR, or any at all?

Supplemental flights on VS from LHR to ATL and DTW someday? Similar to what KLM does at times from AMS?



Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1658 posts, RR: 7
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 39746 times:

It is interesting that this provides DL with another shot at LGW. The potential for domestic feed from DL to VS is excellent and gives Skyteam partners great access to prime time slots at LHR from a lot more cities. All in all DL is proving themselves to be creative in a very tough business environment. It also provides DL with a great source for maintenance issues while in the UK without having to go the expense of establishing a large maintenance base themselves. Can't wait to see what they do next. Maybe AS? They are sitting on a lot of cash and are always looking for a bargain that makes good economic sense, hence cornering the MD90 market and buying MD-82's from SK to be used as spares. With the refinery coming online it will be intersting to see how this affects the bottom line.


Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlineTriple7X From Singapore, joined Dec 2012, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 39532 times:

Quoting docpepz (Reply 8):

That is a pretty low price....considering how much did SIA paid in the past for the shares



Just a 16 year old who loves aviation :)
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4435 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 39551 times:

Quoting AirCanadaA330 (Reply 12):
Quoting shilenb (Reply 9):
Does this mean that VS will now join Skyteam?

Yeah I am wondering the same thing. Wasnt there a post a few months ago stating that Star wanted VS?

I don't think it's pretty much clear as DL and VS have a metal neutral JV and DL control 49% of VS.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 17):

I wonder how Air France and KLM feel, as it potentially means this new tie up will take traffic away from their AMS and CDG hubs on routes to America.

They probably won't mind as there aren't so many connections to the European mainland. Moreover, this benefits them greately as they can sell Skyteam much better to their corporate clients.

BTW will be interesting to see if DL wants to use the second daily LHR-BOS slot and the daily LHR-MIA again, as they can free two daily VS slots for another flight.


User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 719 posts, RR: 2
Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 38524 times:
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I can't believe SQ let it go at such a low price.


Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9390 posts, RR: 26
Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 38607 times:

Quoting VCy (Reply 3):
How many were there before?

for schedule, summer 2013, DAL @ 10, VAL @ 21.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4499 posts, RR: 7
Reply 32, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 38532 times:

Quoting anstar (Reply 24):

I would presume VS will continue to operate from that market as they have done for the last 28 years!

*Past performance is no guarantee of the future....  

But, anyway, it was announced just a little while ago that they will keep their EWR service.


User currently offlinecosyr From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 38471 times:

Who will be moving where at LHR? There is not enough room at Terminal 4 for VS, and as it is now, there is not enough room at Terminal 3 for DL, unless AA moves out. That could happen, but then what about DL's other partners.

Terminal 3 could work if AA moves and AC moves to the new 1 soon, then there might be room for the more occasional Skyteam airlines at 3, but with the Skyteam lounge at 4, I would think 3 would be a bit of a step down.

Or could this be a catalyst for 3 getting a new terminal build after 1 is complete?


User currently offlineLGWflyer From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2011, 2348 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 38217 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 27):
It is interesting that this provides DL with another shot at LGW.

As much as I'd love them to come back here, I expect they most likely won't soon as they are only focused for LHR (and made it pretty clear). I do wonder however though if they did stay just a little more longer .i.e still here now, if anything would be different. Even though VS are big at the leisure routes from here, could DL have had an advantage now that they own 49% than before. Plus the VS HQ is just 2 mins down the road from Gatwick.



3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
User currently offlineglobalflyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 931 posts, RR: 3
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 38170 times:

If all but SkyTeam airlines left T4 at LHR and swapped with VS into T3 would that leave enough room? Also I would LOVE to see VS metal on some DL hubs routes like LHR-ATL. I soubt it will happen but it would be cool!


Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3263 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 38071 times:

What would change at LGW with DL and VS codesharing? It would make no difference to the bottom line except on LAS and MCO. It's not as if VS feed LGW, wishful thinking mate. They're not coming back, they're really not.

User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 37299 times:

As expected SRB is not giving up control of his Baby, that was never going to happen. I would like to see the small print in this deal. Is VS actually joining ST? Have I missed this somewhere?

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16878 posts, RR: 51
Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 37369 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 23):
And I wonder if this means they'll end EWR-LHR.
DL has recently added EWR-CDG and EWR-AMS. Bringing in VS's EWR-LHR obviously rounds out their international portfolio at EWR giving them 4 daily Trans-Atlantic flights from EWR.

[Edited 2012-12-11 08:03:40]


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinenwcoflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 690 posts, RR: 14
Reply 39, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 37170 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
Well now it's official. I still struggle to see how this is worth $360M to Delta - but Delta's management seems to think they know what they're doing

I agree- DL management has done some real out side the box things lately. From the oil refinery to this, they never cease to amaze me. They have also been doing a good job on paying debt down. I wonder how long it will take them to see a return on this investment?



The New American is arriving.
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4499 posts, RR: 7
Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 36959 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 38):
DL has recently added EWR-CDG and EWR-AMS. Bringing in VS's EWR-LHR obviously rounds out their international portfolio at EWR giving them 4 daily Trans-Atlantic flights from EWR.

I noted that it was mentioned in their official announcement that they will be keeping EWR (for now), so not sure why you posted what you did. Here's my follow up post that you may have missed:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 32):
But, anyway, it was announced just a little while ago that they will keep their EWR service.


User currently offlineshilenb From UK - England, joined Oct 2012, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 36765 times:

Quoting cosyr (Reply 33):
Terminal 3 could work if AA moves

AA will never move from T3 as this does not agree for Heathrow's plan to have alliance members under 1 terminal


User currently offlineAF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 36611 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 29):
Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 17):

I wonder how Air France and KLM feel, as it potentially means this new tie up will take traffic away from their AMS and CDG hubs on routes to America.
Quoting LJ (Reply 29):
They probably won't mind as there aren't so many connections to the European mainland. Moreover, this benefits them greately as they can sell Skyteam much better to their corporate clients.

I agree, I think DL-VS will mostly capture the London market from all over the US, while the AF-KL-DL-AZ JV will keep focusing on both P2P and connections throughout Europe.

Congrats to DL, impressive coverage of European markets thanks to their well managed partnerships and investments!


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 6
Reply 43, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 36318 times:

Quoting Triple7X (Reply 28):

That is a pretty low price....considering how much did SIA paid in the past for the shares
SQ bought at a PEAK - it was also a time that LHR was alot more closed and restricted and everyone thought LHR was profitable regardless.

Things have changed, the Middle East carriers are much more competitive with SQ nowdays. SQ have refocussed and have now invested in Virgin Australia and are focussing more on their region.

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 37):
Is VS actually joining ST? Have I missed this somewhere?
VS have mentioned they are now evaluating Skyteam entry - I would guess they will announce it after all the dust settles.

Quoting AF185 (Reply 42):
while the AF-KL-DL-AZ JV will keep focusing on both P2P and connections throughout Europe.



The JV covers all UK - US/Canada/Mexico direct flying.

So that includes GLA-MCO, MAN-LAS, MAN-MCO on VS and MAN-ATL with DL.

It is not jsut LHR/LGW

[Edited 2012-12-11 08:34:59]

User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1399 posts, RR: 1
Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 36182 times:

Quoting avek00 (Reply 25):
If VS is not brought into the existing Skyteam TATL JV, I expect the latter to be modified to create a "carve out" for LHR/LGW such that the SkyTeam partners would not cooperate on London flying.

The TATL JV situation seems to be possibly getting quite complex and untidy. So DL could easily have a TATL JV with AF/KL offering JFK-EDI (via AMS) competing with a TATL JV with VS offering JFK-EDI (via LHR). How, without breaking non-disclosure agreements between the various parties, does DL avoid being in a price war with itself?

BTW - it might be a contrary viewpoint, and I have no fanboi-ism about anyone or any axe to grind, but I think it will all end in tears

[Edited 2012-12-11 08:28:41]


Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A388,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,(..51 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16878 posts, RR: 51
Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 36054 times:

With the addition of VS DL's EWR-Trans-Atlantic portfolio is impressive, four daily! Not too many (any?) cities in the US can claim to have four daily Trans-Atlantic flights from a non hub carrier. VS also recently opened a new Clubhouse at EWR:

http://www.jaunted.com/story/2012/12...+Class+Clubhouse+at+Newark+Airport

Could this become a Delta club, either replacing or complimenting their existing club room. Perhaps for AMS and CDG travelers?



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3263 posts, RR: 1
Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 36017 times:

So will Virgin still be the anchor tennant in th STAR terminal at LHR now? Oh wait that was last week's plan! Will we see them in T4? Nope, no room. Staying with Oneworld in T3 then I guess!

User currently offlineseansasLCY From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2007, 868 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 35789 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 46):

So will Virgin still be the anchor tennant in th STAR terminal at LHR now? Oh wait that was last week's plan! Will we see them in T4? Nope, no room. Staying with Oneworld in T3 then I guess!

According to the current webcast Delta will seek to colocate with VS at T3.


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 6
Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 35775 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 46):
So will Virgin still be the anchor tennant in th STAR terminal at LHR now? Oh wait that was last week's plan! Will we see them in T4? Nope, no room. Staying with Oneworld in T3 then I guess!

Domestic flights will operate from T2 from 2014.


User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 797 posts, RR: 1
Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 35905 times:

DL has been trying for the past few years to be hipper than AA and UA, e.g., new Sky Club designs and IFE. Seems that they could use a little help from VS to shake that down south image.

User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1399 posts, RR: 1
Reply 50, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 35775 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 46):
So will Virgin still be the anchor tennant in th STAR terminal at LHR now? Oh wait that was last week's plan!

I seem to recall that was last week's plan from VS, I'm not certain BAA ever even publicly acknowledged VS' plan/desire for the new T2/1!   Anyway, the project manager for the new terminal is probably breathing a sigh of relief and can get back to dealing with UA, LH and the others.

Could DL join VS in T3 once SQ, SK et al move out? that should be possible.

EDIT ... I now see: "According to the current webcast Delta will seek to colocate with VS at T3."

Looks like I had a great idea  Smile

[Edited 2012-12-11 08:39:04]


Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A388,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,(..51 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlineslinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 843 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 35105 times:

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 50):
I seem to recall that was last week's plan from VS, I'm not certain BAA ever even publicly acknowledged VS' plan/desire for the new T2/1!   Anyway, the project manager for the new terminal is probably breathing a sigh of relief and can get back to dealing with UA, LH and the others.

Could DL join VS in T3 once SQ, SK et al move out? that should be possible.

Just been announced that VS domestic will move from T1 to T2 in 2014 and DL have said that they're aiming to move from T4 to T3 to be with VS long haul.


User currently offline777 From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 34526 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 20):
I may be wrong, but I believe it's a new JV just between DL and VS - otherwise they would have mentioned the AF-KL-AZ JV in the press release; the press release also says "new joint venture". What this probably means is that the DL-operated flights to LHR (which currently carry the KL code as well), will now have KL and VS as codeshare partners, while the VS-operated LHR flights will only have DL as codeshare partner (not KL or AF).

Guess how happy may be AF after this move that creates direct conflict with the already existing TATL JV.


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 34309 times:

I would love to see a SLC-LHR with a 767-300 if they have extra slots in the distant future....fingers crossed

I would have to think this means an eventual entry to skyteam


User currently offlinea300 american From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 54, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 34242 times:

What does this do (if anything) to DL wanting to "buy" AA? My first reaction would be that would put their buying in jeopardy. Thoughts?

User currently offlineetops1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1093 posts, RR: 1
Reply 55, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 33861 times:

First of all , Delta does not wan to buy AA . Where did you get that from ?

User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1399 posts, RR: 1
Reply 56, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 33871 times:

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 51):
Just been announced that VS domestic will move from T1 to T2 in 2014

That's not really a "move" as T1 will disappear and large tracts of it absorbed into T2. T1 will close and T2 will open but many of the gates will be the same.



Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A388,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,(..51 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlineGCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1399 posts, RR: 1
Reply 57, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 33670 times:

Quoting etops1 (Reply 55):
First of all , Delta does not wan to buy AA . Where did you get that from ?
Delta Trying To Buy AA? (by blueman87 Aug 12 2012 in Civil Aviation)?

But IIRC it was never a really viable plan and wasn't taken seriously here

[Edited 2012-12-11 09:18:54]


Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A388,BA11,BU31,B190, B461,B462,(..51 types..),VC10,WESX
User currently offlinea300 american From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 58, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 33445 times:

Quoting etops1 (Reply 55):

Whooops, my bad, it's USAirways I was thinking about. No need to jump down anyone's throat.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4252 posts, RR: 1
Reply 59, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 33341 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 5):
This doesn't speak well for Virgin itself.

I just flew on VS and am hoping that it would be influencing the way things are done at DL, although they seem to have the better service than the other main carriers in the states.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinemichiganatc From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 32779 times:

What does this mean for DL and VS employees? Do you think DL employees will be able to fly on VS for free? I'm assuming no. I bet it will be something like the Alaska JV where it's a reduced ZED fare.

User currently offlinecessna2 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 338 posts, RR: 2
Reply 61, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 32707 times:

This is great news! Bye bye AA RDU-LHR....Hello DL RDU-LHR/CDG

User currently offlineetops1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1093 posts, RR: 1
Reply 62, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 32548 times:

I hope DL cabin crews don't get the shaft with this . They are non union . DL could easily have VA take over their LHR flts with VA crews . DL FA have no scope or protections against stuff like this . Could be scary . And this does not at all put a potential AA/US merger in jeopardy . On the contrary , I think it solidifies the need for both carriers to Merge .

[Edited 2012-12-11 09:46:32]

User currently offlinejmw99ttu From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 32304 times:

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 61):

This is great news! Bye bye AA RDU-LHR....Hello DL RDU-LHR/CDG


Why would this end AA's RDU-LHR route? Did GSK end their contract with AA for this route?


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11711 posts, RR: 62
Reply 64, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 32073 times:

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 61):
Bye bye AA RDU-LHR....Hello DL RDU-LHR/CDG

  

Why would this have any impact on that?

Quoting etops1 (Reply 62):
I hope DL cabin crews don't get the shaft with this . They are non union . DL could easily have VA take over their LHR flts with VA crews

No way. DL places value and strategic importance on having its brand present at LHR. If anything this enhances that, not detracts from it. DL is certainly not going to hand their LHR flying to VS - that's just as preposterous as suggestions that VS is just going to be consumed into DL and the VS brand will disappear. In both respects - not going to happen.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 62):
Could be scary . And this does not at all put a potential AA/US merger in jeopardy . On the contrary , I think it solidifies the need for both carriers to Merge .

I actually don't think this has much impact on AA/BA one way or the other, but I agree that it certainly doesn't in any way undermine whatever logic there is for an AA/US merger.


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4914 posts, RR: 25
Reply 65, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 32021 times:
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Quoting 777 (Reply 52):
Guess how happy may be AF after this move that creates direct conflict with the already existing TATL JV.

From the just-ended press conference, AF-KL have been supportive of this deal. And there are indications from all sides that this will eventually fold into the existing DL-AF-KL-AZ joint venture. VS mentioned that they will be looking at DL's existing partners to look for additional opportunities, including possible Skyteam entry down the road.

Frankly, I think AF-KL have simply not had the time to work on such a deal, given their current focus on their own restructuring efforts.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 62):
They are non union . DL could easily have VA take over their LHR flts with VA crews . DL FA have no scope or protections against stuff like this . Could be scary

DL's existing JVs have shown that your 'scare' scenario will not happen. In fact, with the current AF-KL-AZ JV, DL has more flights on their own metal to AMS and CDG now than ever before. For instance, CDG will see 12 DL-metal flights a day next summer; that's more DL metal than ever, even with the combined DL and NW flights from a few years ago.


User currently offlinecessna2 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 338 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 31989 times:

Quoting jmw99ttu (Reply 63):
Why would this end AA's RDU-LHR route? Did GSK end their contract with AA for this route?

Delta has been trying to take the contract for years. But the lack of connections in LHR with DL made it an issue. So DL decided to start up CDG. AA then threatened to end LHR service if GSK signed a contract with DL as well. So with this announcement today I can foresee DL taking over LHR from AA.


User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1658 posts, RR: 7
Reply 67, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 31894 times:

Quoting etops1 (Reply 62):
I hope DL cabin crews don't get the shaft with this . They are non union . DL could easily have VA take over their LHR flts with VA crews . DL FA have no scope or protections against stuff like this . Could be scary . And this does not at all put a potential AA/US merger in jeopardy . On the contrary , I think it solidifies the need for both carriers to Merge

Another union vote is in the works. This news will just add fuel to the fire. Look for IAM to represent the f/a's in the not-too-distant future. The times,they area changin'.



Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11711 posts, RR: 62
Reply 68, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 31864 times:

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 66):
Delta has been trying to take the contract for years. But the lack of connections in LHR with DL made it an issue. So DL decided to start up CDG. AA then threatened to end LHR service if GSK signed a contract with DL as well. So with this announcement today I can foresee DL taking over LHR from AA.

Respectfully, I think that's ridiculous. DL would only pick up RDU-LHR if AA decided they no longer wanted the market. A large portion of that flight is supported by local O&D at both ends, with a healthy portion of it U.K.-originating. BA has a far larger network and broader offering to U.K. FFs than VS does or will have. In addition, the flight is also supplemented with plenty of connections onward beyond LHR to destinations across the globe. VS cannot now, nor will it be able to, replicate anywhere near as many connections. VS will offer convenient, 1-stop connectivity to essentially MAN/EDI/ABZ, and only a handful of longhaul destinations beyond LHR - the rest of VS' beyond-LHR flying is generally all timed poorly to connect to/from the U.S., with evening LHR departures and/or arrivals.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7587 posts, RR: 43
Reply 69, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 31685 times:

Quoting avek00 (Reply 25):
If VS is not brought into the existing Skyteam TATL JV, I expect the latter to be modified to create a "carve out" for LHR/LGW such that the SkyTeam partners would not cooperate on London flying.

Yes, I would imagine that the JV agreements among DL, AF-KL and AZ will need to be amended.

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 47):
According to the current webcast Delta will seek to colocate with VS at T3.

That is interesting. I suppose VS and DL would want to use T3 and that would leave the rest of the SkyTeam airlines that fly to LHR as T4 tennants. I don't think this is that big a deal since it is very unlikely that there is a meaningful number of passengers connecting from DL flights to the likes of AF, AZ, MU, KQ, KL, SV, etc. and vice versa at LHR.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineNYCAdvantage From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 355 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 30897 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 45):

With the addition of VS DL's EWR-Trans-Atlantic portfolio is impressive, four daily! Not too many (any?) cities in the US can claim to have four daily Trans-Atlantic flights from a non hub carrier. VS also recently opened a new Clubhouse at EWR:


Could this become a Delta club, either replacing or complimenting their existing club room. Perhaps for AMS and CDG travelers?

Since you bring this up, I wonder if DL/VS would add another EWR-LHR do you think it would affect the O/D LHR traffic on UA?

Today's Delta's management seems working in a whole different level, Congratulations to them.


User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3263 posts, RR: 1
Reply 71, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 29533 times:

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 61):
This is great news! Bye bye AA RDU-LHR....Hello DL RDU-LHR/CDG

Why?
Delta's move into T3 won't go down well I suspect. It's a tip in comparison to T4! All very jolly if you're premium but for the rest of us, not so great(!)


User currently offlineTriple7LR From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 29473 times:

I guess we will see SEA-LHR. RA hinted it would be the next international destination from SEA when DL announced SEA-HND and SEA-PVG.

User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7587 posts, RR: 43
Reply 73, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 29422 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 65):
AF-KL have been supportive of this deal. And there are indications from all sides that this will eventually fold into the existing DL-AF-KL-AZ joint venture. VS mentioned that they will be looking at DL's existing partners to look for additional opportunities, including possible Skyteam entry down the road.

Frankly, this makes a lot of sense for everyone. I would not be surprised if AF-KL would make a move to acquire all or part of Branson's stake further down the road.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 74, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 29174 times:
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Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 67):

I see a JV creating more flights from the US on DL to connect with the VS presence in the UK. I don't see how this will lead to reduction of DL F/A work.



The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineKleiner From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 28950 times:

How does this play out on routes? I assume some non-hub flights are cut due to redundancy? Does this mean VS metal will change to DL on some routes, allowing VS to enter new US markets?

User currently offlineTardis From UK - England, joined Dec 2012, 40 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 28832 times:

Great news for Delta! I wonder how this will changes things at Virgin??

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12589 posts, RR: 25
Reply 77, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 28783 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 5):
DL did get an amazing price for the 49% stake. Hypothetically speaking, If DL were to sell all the LHR slots based on historical prices, the value would be more than $360 million. All the value appears to be in the slots. This doesn't speak well for Virgin itself.

DL can't own more than 49% of VA, and Branson controls 51% of VA, so the slots won't be changing hands, they'll just be utilized to maximize the profit of the joint venture. Given Branson's control of the shares and thus the board, DL is taking the risk that Branson will be using VAs assets to maximize such profit, because SRB still is holding the controlling interest in VA and thus has a lot of freedom of action.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1955 posts, RR: 2
Reply 78, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 28644 times:

$360m is a lot to risk on a small, currently unprofitable airline. Can this purchase turn VS around? We'll see.

User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 79, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 28703 times:

Jesus H Christ Delta, you continue to impress me!

Quoting N62NA (Reply 23):
And I wonder if this means they'll end EWR-LHR.

Since EWR was praised in the official DL.com press release, I sincerely doubt it.

However since EWR-LHR is now a JV route, it's possible that a DL 763 could operate it along it's sister routes: EWR-AMS/CDG.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 45):
Could this become a Delta club, either replacing or complimenting their existing club room. Perhaps for AMS and CDG travelers?

Good question. I think it will remain a Virgin club but if it changes perhaps it would become a Sky Team Club, considering the DL club in B-1 is essentially a small closet.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4499 posts, RR: 7
Reply 80, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 28419 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 79):
However since EWR-LHR is now a JV route, it's possible that a DL 763 could operate it along it's sister routes: EWR-AMS/CDG.

That wouldn't surprise me at all. VS "leaving" EWR in that manner.


User currently offlinefpetrutiu From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 890 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 28450 times:

Now on CNN as well: http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/11/news...rgin-airlines/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

[Edited 2012-12-11 11:36:48]

User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 82, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 28257 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 80):

That wouldn't surprise me at all. VS "leaving" EWR in that manner.

I mean, would they "leave" or would it just be codeshared on DL metal? I must say, DL's new check in lobby at Terminal B is pretty sharp. It can easily handle the AMS, CDG and if it were to ever happen, LHR flights at the same time.

I highly doubt they would entirely since EWR-LAX/SFO was just announced (granted, they will be operating from AA's gates instead in A.)



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4499 posts, RR: 7
Reply 83, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 27952 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 82):

I mean, would they "leave" or would it just be codeshared on DL metal?

Let's put it this way: It wouldn't surprise me that a VS airplane would not be visiting EWR.


User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 27981 times:

Hi All,

A late night of work is ahead for me here in London because I have been distracted by this news, but I do want to flavor in a couple of comments from the press conference (found here: http://www.media-server.com/m/p/6ws7w4x6).

* Regarding SkyTeam - Julie Southern stated that Virgin Atlantic is certainly looking into the joining an alliance membership "if it's a right thing to do for the business." Currently they have been working to form the JV with Delta, but they will be engaging with SkyTeam to determine addtional benefits. The decision to join could come in the "next FEW months." ~ Hopefully that means yes!

* Regarding moving of airline - Virgin will likely insist that Delta move to T3. ~Pretty exciting if they start allowing Medallions to use the Clubhouse. However, would they need to expand the lounge?

* Reciprical Frequent Flyer Miles - Should come pretty soon. Much quicker than JV. ~ Hopefully they allow accrual of MQM's


A couple of other comments. Great for Delta for having a JV with both Virgin Atlantic and Virgin Australia. It would be interesting to see if there is ever a deal down the line between Delta and Virgin America. I also agree with some that the eventual aim is to have this JV tied up with AF / KL / AZ JV, but currently I beleive the other JV is under scruitiny by authorities. Given that, both VS and DL probably see the easiest way to get this up and running is through just a singular JV with the other bit coming later.

Again, great for Delta. I cannot wait to burn some miles on Virgin Upperclass!

Regards,

Team



Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 85, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 27588 times:

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 79):
However since EWR-LHR is now a JV route, it's possible that a DL 763 could operate it along it's sister routes: EWR-AMS/CDG.

That's not nearly enough capacity for that route. Why waste the airplane on a route that is already well served with VS's larger aircraft? DL's JV strategy has normally been to give up bigger routes with low margins to their partners (i.e. JFK-CDG, which is almost all AF now), so that they can use their own smaller airplanes on routes that wouldn't be economically viable with their partners' larger aircraft. Putting 767s on EWR-LHR completely goes against that.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinesqsfo From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 27263 times:

WIth this deal going thru, VS/DL could be the major superpower across the pond into UK(specifically LHR). I wonder if DL/VS will try to improve or build a a west coast system( SFO would mainly be O&D but LAX could get some feeder traffic?) Maybe this can even give a.nutter crazies the chance to do SYD-LAX-LHR!?

User currently offlineProst From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1049 posts, RR: 1
Reply 87, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 26981 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 85):
That's not nearly enough capacity for that route. Why waste the airplane on a route that is already well served with VS's larger aircraft? DL's JV strategy has normally been to give up bigger routes with low margins to their partners (i.e. JFK-CDG, which is almost all AF now), so that they can use their own smaller airplanes on routes that wouldn't be economically viable with their partners' larger aircraft. Putting 767s on EWR-LHR completely goes against that.

Perhaps the slots can be finessed where an additional flight from EWR is provided with a DL 767, supplementing the VS flight. This is all hypothesis, and there will be a lot of shakeout once the JV gets approved. Just a few days ago, many on this forum were saying this would never happen, now we're hearing how it is going to be severely challenged/constrained.

Perhaps we can let the ink dry on the signatures, get the JV approved, and allow both airlines to begin their preparations?


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4914 posts, RR: 25
Reply 88, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 27012 times:
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Quoting sqsfo (Reply 86):
WIth this deal going thru, VS/DL could be the major superpower across the pond into UK(specifically LHR)

BA/AA will still be the major 'superpower' between the US and LHR, but this deal does put both VS and DL in a better competitive position vis-a-vis BA/AA.

On the Delta side, this very nicely rounds up Delta's coverage of the most important European markets (LHR is #1, followed by a distant #2 - CDG/France). Delta's key European destinations will now be LHR, CDG, AMS, and FCO - not bad at all for some of the key European markets (Germany is the one big missing piece, though Germany would not be nearly as big a hole as LHR to fill, and DL does cover Germany relatively well for a US carrier with no German partner).


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7639 posts, RR: 18
Reply 89, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 26959 times:

Questions....with this 49% stake in VS, would DL be allowed to fleet-transfer a/c from VS to DL, and vice versa?

Will this increase VS service to cities in the US or detract from it?



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2093 posts, RR: 3
Reply 90, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 26925 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 29):
BTW will be interesting to see if DL wants to use the second daily LHR-BOS slot and the daily LHR-MIA again, as they can free two daily VS slots for another flight.

If DL applied for the second BOS-LHR again, it could allow VS to discontinue its own LHR-BOS flight as you say and launch another flight elsewhere. This could be a new destination (LHR-SEA) or perhaps to take on an existing DL frequency (say a DL LHR-ATL flight) to allow DL to launch a new flight (LHR-SEA).

I don't think DL can apply for the MIA-LHR slot any longer, as US is using this to operate MIA-CLT-LHR (just like DL is operating DFW-ATL-LHR to get the DFW slot at LHR).

I wonder if we could see SLC get a London connection, even if only LGW, in part supported by Virgin Holidays pushing it as a destination (particularky in Winter)?

I also wonder what the DL-VS joint venture means for the VS codeshare with US? With the depth of this deal I can't see VS maintaining a deal with US, so I wonder if even US doesn't merge with AA they'd consider jumping ship to oneworld?



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6185 posts, RR: 2
Reply 91, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 26281 times:

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 27):
Can't wait to see what they do next.

TIme to turn their attention south......time to set up shop in MIA if you ask me (as all the major latin partners have gone to one world or *A)



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently onlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32884 posts, RR: 71
Reply 92, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 26157 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 38):
Quoting cessna2 (Reply 66):
Delta has been trying to take the contract for years. But the lack of connections in LHR with DL made it an issue. So DL decided to start up CDG. AA then threatened to end LHR service if GSK signed a contract with DL as well. So with this announcement today I can foresee DL taking over LHR from AA.

You do realize that lack of connections is still an issue, right?

Are you seriously trying to compare BA's LHR network with that of another carrier?

Raleigh-Europe is a tiny market. It's lucky enough to have one non-stop. A second isn't happening.



a.
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 816 posts, RR: 1
Reply 93, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 26052 times:

Quoting Triple7LR (Reply 72):
I guess we will see SEA-LHR. RA hinted it would be the next international destination from SEA when DL announced SEA-HND and SEA-PVG.

Which raises an interesting question. Apart from JFK there's little overlap between Delta and Virgin's network. I'm sure Delta would like to add more flights to existings hubs at ATL and elsewhere. Delta and Virgin don't have any spare slot pairs so is Virgin going to pull any Africa/Asia routes to add transatlantic capacity?


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16878 posts, RR: 51
Reply 94, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 25867 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 83):
It wouldn't surprise me that a VS airplane would not be visiting EWR.
Quoting Mir (Reply 85):
That's not nearly enough capacity for that route. Why waste the airplane on a route that is already well served with VS's larger aircraft? DL's JV strategy has normally been to give up bigger routes with low margins to their partners (i.e. JFK-CDG, which is almost all AF now), so that they can use their own smaller airplanes on routes that wouldn't be economically viable with their partners' larger aircraft. Putting 767s on EWR-LHR completely goes against that.

I doubt VS would leave EWR, for starters EWR is a premium route for VS with two daily flights. The only other cities with two or more VS flights to London are JFK and LAX, all the others (MIA, LAS, IAD, BOS, SFO etc..) are single daily.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4499 posts, RR: 7
Reply 95, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 25452 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 85):
Why waste the airplane on a route that is already well served with VS's larger aircraft? ... Putting 767s on EWR-LHR completely goes against that.

4 of the 9 flights on that route are 757s, so apparently larger aircraft aren't a requirement for success on EWR-LHR.

VS only has 2 flights on EWR-LHR. We keep having it beaten into our brains here on a.net that "frequency is king" so DL selling seats on just 2 flights out of EWR (one in the morning, one in the evening) isn't very good for "the businessman."

I think Tommy767's idea of DL 763s taking the place of VS's aircraft on this route has merit - assuming DL could add at least another flight or two in the evening out of EWR.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 96, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 25117 times:

Quoting KL911 (Reply 13):
Just a shame its not allowed to have 51%. If AF-KL get 2%, does that count for ownership as 51% together?

Isn't it ironic how an airline that complained about SRB and other non Americans owning too much of a US airline is now owning much more of SRB's airline in Europe.


User currently offlineclrd4t8koff From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 23683 times:

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 90):
If DL applied for the second BOS-LHR again, it could allow VS to discontinue its own LHR-BOS flight as you say and launch another flight elsewhere.

I can't imagine why VS, who is an established carrier on the BOS-LHR sector, would want to give up a premium TA route like that only to establish themselves in a new market like SEA where they've had no presence? It would be MUCH more profitable for DL to establish this route given their current presence in SEA.


User currently offlineQANTASvJet From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2012, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 23129 times:

schedule
1 DL buys 49% of VS & they do codeshare deal
2 VS applies, and is allowed, to join the DL/AF-KLM anti-trust immunity deal. AF-KLM buy some but not all of SRB's shares in VS, which joins SkyTeam
3 Air Berlin leaves OneWorld and joins SkyTeam. Etihad, Aer Lingus and Virgin Australia also join SkyTeam.
4 DL buys VA which also joins SkyTeam. Operates as a brand that appeals to consumers who like to think of themselves as independently-minded while actually enjoying all the advantages offered by big corporates. (ie Apple customers.)
5 All concerned put feet up and light cigars


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25459 posts, RR: 22
Reply 99, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 23047 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 78):
$360m is a lot to risk on a small, currently unprofitable airline.

UA paid $400 million in 1990 (equivalent to about $700 million today) for Pan Am's LHR routes. And AA paid about $555 million (equivalent to $940 million today) for TWA's LHR routes in 1991. Those transactions were of course for 100%, not 49%.

Quoting Tardis (Reply 76):
I wonder how this will changes things at Virgin?

They should change their name from Virgin Atlantic to Virgin Atlanta.  


User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 1082 posts, RR: 5
Reply 100, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 22980 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 92):
Are you seriously trying to compare BA's LHR network with that of another carrier?

Yup, there is only one network airline at LHR and only one alliance will have a true hub there.


User currently offlineAusA380 From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 101, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 22394 times:

Now that a US airline has purchased up to 49% of a major airline in a 1st world country, will this trigger some thinking of allowing the rest of the world to be able to purchase up to 49% of US airlines if they wanted to?

User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4252 posts, RR: 1
Reply 102, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 22397 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 69):
That is interesting. I suppose VS and DL would want to use T3 and that would leave the rest of the SkyTeam airlines that fly to LHR as T4 tennants. I don't think this is that big a deal since it is very unlikely that there is a meaningful number of passengers connecting from DL flights to the likes of AF, AZ, MU, KQ, KL, SV, etc. and vice versa at LHR.

I can only see this as a plus for people who are connecting through LHR. I personally don't care but I can see how not going to CDG would be positive.

Quoting Triple7LR (Reply 72):

I guess we will see SEA-LHR. RA hinted it would be the next international destination from SEA when DL announced SEA-HND and SEA-PVG.

Let us hope that is the case. It certainly would make the trip to London, UK quicker that having to either transit through MSP, LAX, or JFK from HNL.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17544 posts, RR: 46
Reply 103, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 22375 times:

Congrats UA/Star on suddenly becoming the third-run in LHR Transatlantic; I wonder what their next move will be...

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 100):
Yup, there is only one network airline at LHR and only one alliance will have a true hub there.

True, but this gives Skyteam a good boost, and further locks Star out.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 67):
Another union vote is in the works

There's always one in the works.

Quoting commavia (Reply 64):
I actually don't think this has much impact on AA/BA one way or the other

   It really doesn't change much on the LON point of sale as long as VS has no regional/shorthaul network to speak of; it does make them slightly more appealing now that they have a legitimate network partner in the US.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4252 posts, RR: 1
Reply 104, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 22121 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 103):
It really doesn't change much on the LON point of sale as long as VS has no regional/shorthaul network to speak of; it does make them slightly more appealing now that they have a legitimate network partner in the US.

Was there not something about EI flying domestically for VS on these threads, although I can't see it being like a feeder to LHR unless there is going to be another announcement about former BD routes being taken over by VS.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 105, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 22139 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 95):
4 of the 9 flights on that route are 757s, so apparently larger aircraft aren't a requirement for success on EWR-LHR.

When you throw United into the mix, you're going to have lots of 757s, yes.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 95):
VS only has 2 flights on EWR-LHR. We keep having it beaten into our brains here on a.net that "frequency is king" so DL selling seats on just 2 flights out of EWR (one in the morning, one in the evening) isn't very good for "the businessman."

"The businessman" is probably going to be flying on United EWR-LHR. DL's strong market is out of JFK - they don't have nearly the same following across the Hudson, and would get beaten badly if they tried to go after one of United's prime routes. All they're really looking for is a piece of the local O&D market, and a couple of flights per day is sufficient for that.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2093 posts, RR: 3
Reply 106, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 22025 times:

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 97):
I can't imagine why VS, who is an established carrier on the BOS-LHR sector, would want to give up a premium TA route like that only to establish themselves in a new market like SEA where they've had no presence? It would be MUCH more profitable for DL to establish this route given their current presence in SEA.

Well the aim of the JV is to be metal neutral, so costs and profits of all flights UK-USA will be shared between VS and DL. My hypothetical suggestion of VS giving up LHR-BOS would be because it would be a way for the joint venture carriers to pick up an extra LHR slot (from AA/BA) and then transfer an existing slot to launch a new route.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 975 posts, RR: 2
Reply 107, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 21959 times:

Quoting AusA380 (Reply 101):
Now that a US airline has purchased up to 49% of a major airline in a 1st world country, will this trigger some thinking of allowing the rest of the world to be able to purchase up to 49% of US airlines if they wanted to?

Not likely, as long as the Democrats are in charge of the Senate and White House. Why in the world should they enact more flexible legislation when it would not appeal to American airline workers, many of whom are represented by unions that support the Democrats? Come to think of it, most American carriers would not even agree to it. No reason to open yourself up to outside influence unless there's cash to be made, and that's no longer the concern it was before so many carriers went through bankruptcy.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4499 posts, RR: 7
Reply 108, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 21495 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 105):
"The businessman" is probably going to be flying on United EWR-LHR. DL's strong market is out of JFK - they don't have nearly the same following across the Hudson, and would get beaten badly if they tried to go after one of United's prime routes. All they're really looking for is a piece of the local O&D market, and a couple of flights per day is sufficient for that.

Yep - though they have 2 flights already - adding another 1 or 2 in the evening would give them a fighting chance.  

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 107):
Not likely, as long as the Democrats are in charge of the Senate and White House. Why in the world should they enact more flexible legislation when it would not appeal to American airline workers, many of whom are represented by unions that support the Democrats?

I try to steer clear of politics on here, but there's one thing that you wrote that I'm not so sure is correct. My gut tells me that the rank and file airline union workers (most likely pilots and mechanics) probably did not vote Democrat. Though it would be interesting to get some inside perspective on this.


User currently offlineBD338 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 711 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 21498 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 102):
I can only see this as a plus for people who are connecting through LHR. I personally don't care but I can see how not going to CDG would be positive.

Connections from LHR - are limited to UK destinations only. Per the fact sheet on the DL Newsroom site. Connections to european destinations are handled via AMS and CDG. This deal is all about DL access to LHR and then feeding to/from their US network. Be interesing to see how integrated they become. As a Y passenger with lots of Skymiles, I will be able to take advantage of the better (IMHO) Y product on VS and VA across both oceans on both sides of the USA  
Quoting AusA380 (Reply 101):
Now that a US airline has purchased up to 49% of a major airline in a 1st world country, will this trigger some thinking of allowing the rest of the world to be able to purchase up to 49% of US airlines if they wanted to?

it would be nice to think so, but I doubt it. There is no rational reason for the current 25% limit. Defense contractors can be owned by foreign companies but not airlines. Logic?


....and for DL's next trick...buy VX  


User currently offlineProst From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1049 posts, RR: 1
Reply 110, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 21003 times:

Quoting BD338 (Reply 109):
it would be nice to think so, but I doubt it. There is no rational reason for the current 25% limit. Defense contractors can be owned by foreign companies but not airlines. Logic?

My understanding is the US can mobile the civil fleet of airlines for use in times of war, and that flexibility for readiness might be taken away if the fleets were owned by foreign powers.

It is quite amazing how much in our nation is tied to defense--ie. the interstate system.


User currently offlineAusA380 From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 111, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 20798 times:

Quoting Prost (Reply 110):
My understanding is the US can mobile the civil fleet of airlines for use in times of war, and that flexibility for readiness might be taken away if the fleets were owned by foreign powers.

But if the airline is still 50.1% US owned with majority US Citizens on the board, why would the board allow plane to leave the country in the time of a crisis. Also, in the event of a crisis, surely air traffic control would not permit departures. Not sure the defence argument is a real issue.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 112, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 20797 times:

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 60):
What does this mean for DL and VS employees? Do you think DL employees will be able to fly on VS for free? I'm assuming no. I bet it will be something like the Alaska JV where it's a reduced ZED fare.

It was possible back in the 90s when DL and VS had their codeshare tie up. Things have changed, since,though, when trying to fly with Skyteam and JV members. Most of them are now ZED fares.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 67):
Another union vote is in the works. This news will just add fuel to the fire. Look for IAM to represent the f/a's in the not-too-distant future. The times,they area changin'.

Unless I'm mistaken, DL has never done this on ANY of the JV flights and I don't see why they would, now. Just another way for the unions to spin it to try and get the rank and file to vote their way.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineFlyKev From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 1383 posts, RR: 1
Reply 113, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 20346 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Never saw this coming but I think VS is an excellent fit for the new Delta and I look forward to seeing this joint venture in action and I hope it makes my Flying Club membership so much more worthwhile.

Kev.



The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17544 posts, RR: 46
Reply 114, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 20297 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 112):
Unless I'm mistaken, DL has never done this on ANY of the JV flights and I don't see why they would, now. Just another way for the unions to spin it to try and get the rank and file to vote their way.

It's ridiculous; AF's unions are the ones that should be throwing the tantrum since DL has picked up half their US flying 



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 115, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 19905 times:

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 100):
Yup, there is only one network airline at LHR and only one alliance will have a true hub there.

While this doesn't much strengthen DL/SkyTeam for LHR fliers vs. BA, it does nicely add to their bargaining power for anyone that wants to fly to London. And, of course, all those loyal VS fliers in the UK will start being funneled onto DL's planes for travel beyond the VS ports in the US.

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 60):
Quoting Prost (Reply 110):
My understanding is the US can mobile the civil fleet of airlines for use in times of war, and that flexibility for readiness might be taken away if the fleets were owned by foreign powers.

That logic is so very outdated at this point, unless someone believes that a EU-owned US carrier would deny the US gov's request for planes.

The law is pure protectionism at this point.


User currently offlinedank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 907 posts, RR: 16
Reply 116, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 19400 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 94):
I doubt VS would leave EWR, for starters EWR is a premium route for VS with two daily flights. The only other cities with two or more VS flights to London are JFK and LAX, all the others (MIA, LAS, IAD, BOS, SFO etc..) are single daily.

SFO is double daily on VS most of the year.


User currently offlineolddominion727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 387 posts, RR: 0
Reply 117, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 19365 times:

I bet we'll see VS SEA-LHR not too long after the tie-up. Does SA)">DL still fly MIA-LON? Does VS? I bet we see that condensed to one and the other's code on it. Maybe VS to SLC? This ties in with VS' order for the A330, match SA)">DL, KL, AF. I think this does add more legitimacy to ST instead of thinking it to be a band of third-world carriers like SV, SU, CI, VN. I think they really need SA though...

User currently offlinenotdownnlocked From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 936 posts, RR: 1
Reply 118, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 19301 times:

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 60):

I would guess 100% NO!!! Used to be all flights codeshared with a DL number were free to employees just as if flying on DL. Back then I flew VS Upper Class JFK-LHR-LAX as well Varig, Sabena, Austrian, and others. Now with the ZED program nothing is free.


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 119, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 19119 times:

Quoting michiganatc (Reply 60):
What does this mean for DL and VS employees? Do you think DL employees will be able to fly on VS for free? I'm assuming no. I bet it will be something like the Alaska JV where it's a reduced ZED fare.

Definitely not free! It would probably be similar to the AF/KL JV fares. Lower than ZED-low fares. In 2009, I flew AF 773 CDG-JFK for $46 (plus taxes). Also, while DL upgrades non-revs, AF didn't. VS probably won't either. Oh well, at least the price is right!



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7587 posts, RR: 43
Reply 120, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 18956 times:

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 84):
Reciprical Frequent Flyer Miles - Should come pretty soon. Much quicker than JV. ~ Hopefully they allow accrual of MQM's

Good point. MQMs accrual should be possible. Other DL non-SkyTeam "alliance" partners allow that, right? I am talking about AS, HA and VA specifically.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 89):
Questions....with this 49% stake in VS, would DL be allowed to fleet-transfer a/c from VS to DL, and vice versa?

In a metal-neutral JV, it does not make sense to transfer DL planes to VS and viceversa. I don't think this is in the cards. Maybe in the future a joint order for better bargaining power could take place.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 99):
They should change their name from Virgin Atlantic to Virgin Atlanta.

LOL! Made me laugh a lot man.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 102):
I can only see this as a plus for people who are connecting through LHR. I personally don't care but I can see how not going to CDG would be positive.

Well, but the number of SkyTeam destinations ex-LHR that DL fliers will have available through VS and the SkyTeam members that serve LHR is substantially lower than the destinations that AMS, CDG and FCO offer (the same applies for SkyTeam passengers flying to the U.S. from Europe and Asia). That is why I believe the number of SkyTeam connecting passengers at LHR is not very meaningful. Plus, AMS is a great airport for connections, and it is not only the hub of DL's JV partner KL, but also a hub (of sorts) of DL itself (legacy of NW). Even with the VS JV, LHR will continue to be for DL a mostly O&D destination by far.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 121, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 18865 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 120):
In a metal-neutral JV, it does not make sense to transfer DL planes to VS and viceversa.

Most people are so clueless when it comes to JVs. I mean look at some of the replies, "DL not going to fly to LHR anymore so the FAs are gonna get pissed and vote union." Ridiculous.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4499 posts, RR: 7
Reply 122, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 18663 times:

Quoting delimit (Reply 115):
And, of course, all those loyal VS fliers in the UK will start being funneled onto DL's planes for travel beyond the VS ports in the US.

I'm not so sure that would work too well at JFK and EWR as DL really doesn't have such an extensive domestic network out of those (though they do have more out of JFK than EWR).


User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 123, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 18498 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 122):
I'm not so sure that would work too well at JFK and EWR as DL really doesn't have such an extensive domestic network out of those (though they do have more out of JFK than EWR).

Works out of JFK for a number of destinations, unless the VS flight arrives after the DL connection bank. Should offer a few connections out of BOS as well.

And, of course, if you're interested in earning Virgin miles, there's the DL flights to ATL, with connections to basically everywhere.


User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 797 posts, RR: 0
Reply 124, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 18342 times:

First of all, congratulations to Delta for striking such an amazing deal.

DL, with this JV with VS, is now a major player in the US-UK market. Another important aspect of this JV is the tremendous boost DL (and Skyteam hopefully) gets in the LAX-LHR market.
We all know how the AF flight fared on this route a few years ago with no feed at all on both ends. Now they go from no flight on the route to 2x daily (3x in summer) leapfrogging UA and Star Alliance in the process.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 125, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 18202 times:

Just somthing I found. I'm betting DL is pushing hard for a VA-SkyTeam knot.

Quote:
Delta’s plan is to continue to have its trans-Atlantic joint venture with Air France-KLM and Alitalita and add the Virgin Atlantic piece to its network as its own joint venture. Virgin Atlantic executives said the deal with Delta would be the first steps for it to evaluate formal membership into SkyTeam.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinedanielkandi From Denmark, joined Sep 2012, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 126, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 18010 times:

Sorry i cant read through all of this and make sense of it. but does this mean flying blue members will eventually get to earn points, or only delta card holders?


Flown on : md80, md95, Avro RJ85/100, Q400, Atr42/72, a319/320/321, a332/a333, a343/346, b733 and up, 757, 747, 767 and
User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 127, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 18072 times:

Quoting danielkandi (Reply 126):

Sorry i cant read through all of this and make sense of it. but does this mean flying blue members will eventually get to earn points, or only delta card holders?

I would guess just DL until VS decides to join SkyTeam.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7571 posts, RR: 17
Reply 128, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17934 times:

Quoting sqsfo (Reply 86):
WIth this deal going thru, VS/DL could be the major superpower across the pond into UK(specifically LHR).

Not really likely.

Last winter (2011-12) BA/AA offered 60 per cent of the scheduled seats between LHR and all North American destinations. Between them DL and VS offered only 19 per cent. Check it out on page 12 here:

http://www.msmaviation.com/publicdocs/Transat_Winter_2011_2012.pdf

Simply obtaining the LHR slots to treble their North Atlantic offering would be a significant initial hurdle.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7639 posts, RR: 18
Reply 129, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17657 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 120):
In a metal-neutral JV, it does not make sense to transfer DL planes to VS and viceversa. I don't think this is in the cards. Maybe in the future a joint order for better bargaining power could take place.

So there's some speculation then that VS could end up ordering more Boeing planes?



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9509 posts, RR: 14
Reply 130, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17585 times:

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 37):

doesn't matter. VS won't join star with a DL JV. VS will very likely end up in the AF/KL/DL/AZ JV and SkyTeam.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 45):
Could this become a Delta club, either replacing or complimenting their existing club room. Perhaps for AMS and CDG travelers?

not likely on the first one, likely on the 2nd.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 62):
They are non union . DL could easily have VA take over their LHR flts with VA crews . DL FA have no scope or protections against stuff like this . Could be scary .

two things, Delta still has to deal with DALPA which does have limits on JV flying. Also Delta is about to have another FA vote. They are stupid enough to outsource 10 TATL flights right before a union vote.

Quoting panamair (Reply 65):

DL's existing JVs have shown that your 'scare' scenario will not happen. In fact, with the current AF-KL-AZ JV, DL has more flights on their own metal to AMS and CDG now than ever before. For instance, CDG will see 12 DL-metal flights a day next summer; that's more DL metal than ever, even with the combined DL and NW flights from a few years ago.

.....whoa. Nice example with CDG/AMS, but how about we take a look at the rest of Europe......

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 67):
Look for IAM to represent the f/a's in the not-too-distant future.

IAM? where is this coming from? AFA/TWU joint union thing(run....run as fast as you can FAs. Not playing. (and run from the worthless IAM too)) is the one pushing for the new vote.

Quoting NYCAdvantage (Reply 70):

Since you bring this up, I wonder if DL/VS would add another EWR-LHR do you think it would affect the O/D LHR traffic on UA?

highly unlikely. Growth in NYC-LON will be from JFK.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 78):
$360m is a lot to risk on a small, currently unprofitable airline. Can this purchase turn VS around? We'll see.

doesn't matter. The LHR slots alone are worth this. (plus)

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 89):
Questions....with this 49% stake in VS, would DL be allowed to fleet-transfer a/c from VS to DL, and vice versa?

not like your thinking. DL/VS can always lease each other aircraft though.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 93):
Which raises an interesting question. Apart from JFK there's little overlap between Delta and Virgin's network. I'm sure Delta would like to add more flights to existings hubs at ATL and elsewhere. Delta and Virgin don't have any spare slot pairs so is Virgin going to pull any Africa/Asia routes to add transatlantic capacity?

AF/KL still have slots that can be used for LHR growth. (AF still has the ex SEA/LAX slots on CDG-LHR)

Quoting STT757 (Reply 94):

I doubt VS would leave EWR, for starters EWR is a premium route for VS with two daily flights. The only other cities with two or more VS flights to London are JFK and LAX, all the others (MIA, LAS, IAD, BOS, SFO etc..) are single daily.

agreed.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 95):
assuming DL could add at least another flight or two in the evening out of EWR.

wont happen.

Quoting QANTASvJet (Reply 98):
4 DL buys VA which also joins SkyTeam. Operates as a brand that appeals to consumers who like to think of themselves as independently-minded while actually enjoying all the advantages offered by big corporates. (ie Apple customers.)

VX would then have to fly jets with 76 seats or less.

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 97):
I can't imagine why VS, who is an established carrier on the BOS-LHR sector, would want to give up a premium TA route like that only to establish themselves in a new market like SEA where they've had no presence? It would be MUCH more profitable for DL to establish this route given their current presence in SEA.

Delta and virgin are going to be the same. Delta could(I think) get a slot from BA to fly BOS-LHR 2x daily, then DL use the old BOS-LHR VS slot for SEA-LHR. Virgin/Delta are going to want tog row as much as they can, this is an easy way to do so.

Quoting mayor (Reply 112):
Just another way for the unions to spin it to try and get the rank and file to vote their way.

.....uh it is an issue. They have zero protection. it *could* happen. As i say below, Richard wanted to replace NWA FAs across the Atlantaic at one point. He could do it tomorrow at Delta(again, he wont. you don't piss off employees right before a union vote, or if they have been voting and it has been as close as it has been with Delta lately.)

Quoting mayor (Reply 112):
Unless I'm mistaken, DL has never done this on ANY of the JV flights and I don't see why they would, now

they havent.

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 117):
I bet we'll see VS SEA-LHR not too long after the tie-up.

I bet you wont. A DL 763 is much more likely.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 119):
Definitely not free! It would probably be similar to the AF/KL JV fares. Lower than ZED-low fares. In 2009, I flew AF 773 CDG-JFK for $46 (plus taxes). Also, while DL upgrades non-revs, AF didn't. VS probably won't either. Oh well, at least the price is right!

this is why you use AF/KL as a back up plan only, or fly to AMS/CDG on Delta metal.  
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 121):

slow down. Its not stupid. Delta FAs have no scope, no protection. Delta *could* replace them with contract workers if they wanted. IIRC Richard had a plan like this when he was at NWA. (of course the Union told him to piss up a rope)

but it wont happen. Delta is trying to kiss FA butt, not piss em off.



yep.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7639 posts, RR: 18
Reply 131, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17342 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 130):
not like your thinking. DL/VS can always lease each other aircraft though.

What's the probability of that happening, and what kinds of leases? like, which a/c to who and vice versa? This is a very curious acquisition to me



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 132, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16849 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 131):
What's the probability of that happening, and what kinds of leases? like, which a/c to who and vice versa? This is a very curious acquisition to me

First of all, this isn't really an "acquisition" at all. It's a proposal for a codeshare, JV and hopefully, membership in Skyteam. They acquired 49% but VS still controls things, keeps their brand and operate as a separate airline.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinedanielkandi From Denmark, joined Sep 2012, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 133, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16804 times:

god I hope they join Skyteam! Before my australia 4city tour in April plz!!!


Flown on : md80, md95, Avro RJ85/100, Q400, Atr42/72, a319/320/321, a332/a333, a343/346, b733 and up, 757, 747, 767 and
User currently onlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1955 posts, RR: 2
Reply 134, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16853 times:

About all I see in this is DL spending $360 million to bolster the NYC-LON market. Very little of the VS network conflicts with DL. So DL isn't eliminating a competitor except on the JFK-LHR and BOS-LHR routes. The rest of the network is either overlap with the AF/KL JV (the VS hub at LHR) or competing with other airlines like before. The change at JFK is going to be the magic potion that turns the VS side of things around? Or a shuffling of LHR slots to new cities like SEA? I doubt the cure is that simple. There's a lot of risk to this deal for DL. The one good news for SkyTeam is that maybe eventually they'll have LAX-LHR flights now.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 130):

doesn't matter. The LHR slots alone are worth this. (plus)

You bet it matters. It's called return on investment. DL is acquiring a significant stake in an airline that currently isn't making money. They need to turn that around or they will end up a net loser like SQ did. VS is showing that having LHR slots doesn't mean a thing on its own. There could be better ways to spend $360m.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 135, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16648 times:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 134):
About all I see in this is DL spending $360 million to bolster the NYC-LON market. Very little of the VS network conflicts with DL. So DL isn't eliminating a competitor except on the JFK-LHR and BOS-LHR routes. The rest of the network is either overlap with the AF/KL JV (the VS hub at LHR) or competing with other airlines like before. The change at JFK is going to be the magic potion that turns the VS side of things around? Or a shuffling of LHR slots to new cities like SEA? I doubt the cure is that simple. There's a lot of risk to this deal for DL. The one good news for SkyTeam is that maybe eventually they'll have LAX-LHR flights now.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 130):
doesn't matter. The LHR slots alone are worth this. (plus)
You bet it matters. It's called return on investment. DL is acquiring a significant stake in an airline that currently isn't making money. They need to turn that around or they will end up a net loser like SQ did. VS is showing that having LHR slots doesn't mean a thing on its own. There could be better ways to spend $360m.

I often wonder why you aren't sitting in DL's boardroom.  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 797 posts, RR: 1
Reply 136, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16556 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 135):
I often wonder why you aren't sitting in DL's boardroom.

That's Alaska Airlines... he's in the Sky Club.  


User currently offlineviscount630 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 137, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16340 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Hopefully DL will take the opportunity to pick up some valuable customer service tips from VS, so that they can try and re-educate their notoriously rude, grumpy, bored, arrogant, scruffy F/As and Passenger Agents on how to present themselves and how to do their job PROPERLY     


RIP Dan-Air. Where the Secret was SERVICE.
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 138, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16241 times:

Quoting viscount630 (Reply 137):

I think I'll call BS on this one         



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7587 posts, RR: 43
Reply 139, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16217 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 129):
So there's some speculation then that VS could end up ordering more Boeing planes?

That, I don't know. For the time being, VS has outstanding orders for A330s and 787s, no?

Quoting mayor (Reply 132):
First of all, this isn't really an "acquisition" at all. It's a proposal for a codeshare, JV and hopefully, membership in Skyteam. They acquired 49% but VS still controls things, keeps their brand and operate as a separate airline.

I am sorry to disappoint you, but it is an acquisition. It is the acquisition of 49% of the equity of VS. It may not be the acquisition of full control, but it is an acquisition.

Quoting mayor (Reply 132):
VS still controls things

VS is the entity that issues the shares and is the business that will be owned by Branson and DL once the deal closes. VS controls nothing. The controlling shareholder in any case is Branson... perhaps that is what you meant to write. In any event, control will be shared between Branson and DL to certain extent. In addition to DL being able to appoint 3 of the 7 directors, DL has more likely than not negotiated a wide array of supermajority rights that will give it veto power regarding relevant actions by the company.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 6
Reply 140, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 15958 times:

Quoting BD338 (Reply 109):
Connections from LHR - are limited to UK destinations only.

Surely VS would also like to try and get some of the US-India.South Africa traffic connecting at LHR too from DL?

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
That, I don't know. For the time being, VS has outstanding orders for A330s and 787s, no?

Not A330's - they have all been delivered by Airbus.

They have 15 x 787's coming from 2014


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 141, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 15926 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
I am sorry to disappoint you, but it is an acquisition. It is the acquisition of 49% of the equity of VS. It may not be the acquisition of full control, but it is an acquisition.

When I think of an acquisition, I think of them acquiring controlling interest in the airline or the airline, themselves. To me, this is just paying to make sure that VS agrees to go into the JV and/or Skyteam.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
VS is the entity that issues the shares and is the business that will be owned by Branson and DL once the deal closes. VS controls nothing. The controlling shareholder in any case is Branson... perhaps that is what you meant to write.

Excuse me. When I think of VS, I think of Branson and none of this would have happened without his ok. To me, they are interchangable, hence, why I used VS instead of Sir Richard's name.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinedank From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 907 posts, RR: 16
Reply 142, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 15293 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 141):
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
I am sorry to disappoint you, but it is an acquisition. It is the acquisition of 49% of the equity of VS. It may not be the acquisition of full control, but it is an acquisition.

When I think of an acquisition, I think of them acquiring controlling interest in the airline or the airline, themselves. To me, this is just paying to make sure that VS agrees to go into the JV and/or Skyteam.

I'd agree. If there wasn't a 51% shareholder out there, then DL likely would have control, but at the end of the day... Some of the comments suggest that DL will be running the show, but it's not like there wasn't a 49% shareholder before and I don't think people were thinking SQ ran the show...


User currently offlineCapEd388 From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 143, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 14379 times:

Quoting dank (Reply 142):
Quoting mayor (Reply 132):

Thank you! Can you please help me teach some sense to the people on Virgin Atlanitc's facebook. I have been trying to teach them on what this deal is and what it means.

I know its like banging my head against he wall, but comments like "ugh Delta sucks! I wont fly with Virgin anymore" or "Delta sucks! how could you do this Virgin?" and "Virgin is now going to go down hill because of this" etc.



388 346 77W 787
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9509 posts, RR: 14
Reply 144, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 14396 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 129):

They have 787s on order.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 131):

In this case nothing. Delta wont be taking any VS planes and VS wont be getting any Delta planes.

but in theory Delta could least any aircraft in its fleet to Virgin. Delta did this once with 2(IIRC) 737-832s going to westjet for a short amount of time(back with Delta now)

Quoting mayor (Reply 132):

First of all, this isn't really an "acquisition" at all. It's a proposal for a codeshare, JV and hopefully, membership in Skyteam. They acquired 49% but VS still controls things, keeps their brand and operate as a separate airline.

Its a stock acquisition but Branson still has control.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 134):
You bet it matters. It's called return on investment. DL is acquiring a significant stake in an airline that currently isn't making money. They need to turn that around or they will end up a net loser like SQ did. VS is showing that having LHR slots doesn't mean a thing on its own. There could be better ways to spend $360m.

Really? My goodness. Why aren't you the CEO dude? your always so clearly ahead of the the guys at Delta.....  
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 134):
About all I see in this is DL spending $360 million to bolster the NYC-LON market. Very little of the VS network conflicts with DL. So DL isn't eliminating a competitor except on the JFK-LHR and BOS-LHR routes. The rest of the network is either overlap with the AF/KL JV (the VS hub at LHR) or competing with other airlines like before. The change at JFK is going to be the magic potion that turns the VS side of things around? Or a shuffling of LHR slots to new cities like SEA? I doubt the cure is that simple. There's a lot of risk to this deal for DL. The one good news for SkyTeam is that maybe eventually they'll have LAX-LHR flights now.

This really isn't about helping VS. Heck I'm not even sure you will still see the airline 5 years from now. Its all about Delta growing to LHR. They just went from 10 flights a day to 31, tripled its NYC-LHR flights and also got key markets such as LAX-LHR, MIA-LHR and BOS-LHR.
Virgins (IMO) problem is the lack of any shorthaul network. Now, having a strong US partner with good feed in all of VS "big" cities, will help. Getting VS in Skyteam with will help VS more as it will give them some (limited) short haul codeshares out of LHR.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):

VS is the entity that issues the shares and is the business that will be owned by Branson and DL once the deal closes. VS controls nothing. The controlling shareholder in any case is Branson... perhaps that is what you meant to write. In any event, control will be shared between Branson and DL to certain extent. In addition to DL being able to appoint 3 of the 7 directors, DL has more likely than not negotiated a wide array of supermajority rights that will give it veto power regarding relevant actions by the company.

No way for us to know this really, but I don't think Delta is trying to play hero here just yet. I think Branson knows whats wrong with VS....sadly about the only to fix it would be buy BA.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
That, I don't know. For the time being, VS has outstanding orders for A330s and 787s, no?

I think they have taken all the 330s but do have 787s on order.



yep.
User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1922 posts, RR: 8
Reply 145, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13765 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 139):
That, I don't know. For the time being, VS has outstanding orders for A330s and 787s, no?

And for A380's....

Cheers!   



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlineslinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 843 posts, RR: 0
Reply 146, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13149 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 144):
Virgins (IMO) problem is the lack of any shorthaul network.

VS launches short haul flying on March 31 next year.


User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 499 posts, RR: 0
Reply 147, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12970 times:

I hate rain on peoples parades.

All of the above is just speculation until the necessary regulatory approvals have been rubber stamped.

Although I'm sure it's just crossing the T's and dotting the i's.


But

Hypothetically speaking... Could there be potential spanners in the works?



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1658 posts, RR: 7
Reply 148, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12378 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 91):
TIme to turn their attention south......time to set up shop in MIA if you ask me (as all the major latin partners have gone to one world or *A)

I could not agree more. A "Braniff International" type route structure out of MIA would be logical with routes to LIM, GYE, UIO, EZE, SCL, PTY, LPB and others. The 767-300ER would be a great airplane for it, too. The domestic system can provide ample feed to MIA. Gate space there might become an issue, however.



Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4435 posts, RR: 0
Reply 149, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12383 times:

Quoting QANTASvJet (Reply 98):

1 DL buys 49% of VS & they do codeshare deal
2 VS applies, and is allowed, to join the DL/AF-KLM anti-trust immunity deal. AF-KLM buy some but not all of SRB's shares in VS, which joins SkyTeam
3 Air Berlin leaves OneWorld and joins SkyTeam. Etihad, Aer Lingus and Virgin Australia also join SkyTeam.
4 DL buys VA which also joins SkyTeam. Operates as a brand that appeals to consumers who like to think of themselves as independently-minded while actually enjoying all the advantages offered by big corporates. (ie Apple customers.)
5 All concerned put feet up and light cigars

Maybe also on Skyteams timetable:
- EY buying into 9W and/or IT (whatever will happen)
- EY buying into a curently unknown airline which is up for sale or which needs cash

It surprised me it wasn't EY buying VS but DL....

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 144):
Getting VS in Skyteam with will help VS more as it will give them some (limited) short haul codeshares out of LHR.

You forget that VS, once in Skyteam, will also have feed at PVG. Moreover, I think that AF/KL can finally find good use of its excess slots at LHR, now it can reshuffle it more effeciently with the VS pool of slots.

BTW maybe we'll be seeing those VS birds again at AMS for maintenance.


User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 797 posts, RR: 1
Reply 150, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12256 times:

How might DL and VS use "metal neutral" to their advantage? How might capacity be adjusted? Which new routes could be added?

User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 1082 posts, RR: 5
Reply 151, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12232 times:

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 146):
VS launches short haul flying on March 31 next year.

And, how successful was BMI at that before they ceased to exist?


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17544 posts, RR: 46
Reply 152, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 12097 times:

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 146):
VS launches short haul flying on March 31 next year.

To what, two destinations?

Quoting anstar (Reply 140):
Surely VS would also like to try and get some of the US-India.South Africa traffic connecting at LHR too from DL?

VS doesn't offer anything that AF/KL/DL didn't offer before, in terms of connectivity over LON. This is really about getting a good foot in the door in terms of London point of sale frequent flyers, which before such a deal, had no strong reason to choose Skyteam.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 699 posts, RR: 14
Reply 153, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 12036 times:

This is overwhelmingly about Delta picking up premium NYC flyers.

...and a little bit about Delta skimming premium fliers from BOS, ORD, LAX.

Despite all the cheesy repetitions of the value of frequent flier miles, the top customers between NY and London just don't give a damn about frequent flier mile schemes. EOS, MaxJet, Silverjet, OpenSkies (and others) were created because of this ultra-premium market. That is the Real prize. If you're someone who needs a big plate of options from LaGuardia and appreciates a big schedule from NY to London (and other overseas destinations JFK---), Delta is winning your business.

This is not very much about connections in London. It's about NY.

VS already has a very loyal following on BOTH sides of the Atlantic for their unique product offering, *admittedly they have struggled of late*, but letting the 100 million or so SkyMiles members connecting from the hinterlands fill up the back while Delta strengthens premium NYC business is the idea here....and oh, yeah, Virgin's UK customers suddenly get the entire Americas as an option on Delta...but all these connections are secondary to NY-LON premium spenders.

Delta intends to be #1 in New York....watch for another big move or 2 soon enough.

Pu


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7587 posts, RR: 43
Reply 154, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11860 times:

Quoting anstar (Reply 140):
Not A330's - they have all been delivered by Airbus.

They have 15 x 787's coming from 2014

Thank you!

Quoting mayor (Reply 141):
When I think of an acquisition, I think of them acquiring controlling interest in the airline or the airline, themselves.

You are free to think of acquisitions any way you like. That does not change the fact that this deal involves an acquisition which, as I have clearly said already, does not entail control, but only a 49% stake.

Quoting mayor (Reply 141):
When I think of VS, I think of Branson and none of this would have happened without his ok. To me, they are interchangable, hence, why I used VS instead of Sir Richard's name.

Mr. Branson and Virgin Atlantic are separate and distinct entities.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 147):
All of the above is just speculation until the necessary regulatory approvals have been rubber stamped.

Agree. DL has only agreed to acquire shares and SQ has only agreed to sell them. A multitude of conditions need to be satisfied before the shares are actually transferred and the money is effectively paid. That said, I think it is pretty much a done deal. Little by little all these conditions will be satisfied and the deal will be closed.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3263 posts, RR: 1
Reply 155, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11739 times:

VS short haul is to three destinations, ABZ, EDI and MAN. If they are serious I would expect GLA to follow, if not, I would expect these slots to go to long haul.

User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 6
Reply 156, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11653 times:

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 151):
And, how successful was BMI at that before they ceased to exist?

And what long haul network were BMI feeding? Others - not their own.

At least VS (like BA) will be feeding shorthaul pax onto their own long haul flights