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Will We Now See VS Birds At DL Hubs?  
User currently offlineNWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11720 times:

Now that the alliance is done..Virgin Atlantic..welcome to SKYTEAM =)
Someone else brought this up previously and i wonder now will we see VS beautiful planes gracing the tarmacs at DTW|MSP|ATL? I wish KL still flew one of the AMS runs from DTW but alas they dont, however the AF part brings their also beautiful birds into a few DL hubs so it cant be that far fetched...

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1379 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11726 times:

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Thread starter):
welcome to SKYTEAM

They have not joined SkyTeam, they are just with DL right now.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Thread starter):
i wonder now will we see VS beautiful planes gracing the tarmacs at DTW|MSP|ATL?

Only if VS starts service to these cities.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 11703 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 1):
They have not joined SkyTeam, they are just with DL right now.

What do you think the chances of them not joining SkyTeam are?


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 11660 times:

Quoting delimit (Reply 2):
What do you think the chances of them not joining SkyTeam are?

If this means anything..

Quote:
Delta’s plan is to continue to have its trans-Atlantic joint venture with Air France-KLM and Alitalita and add the Virgin Atlantic piece to its network as its own joint venture. Virgin Atlantic executives said the deal with Delta would be the first steps for it to evaluate formal membership into SkyTeam.

I'd say pretty good in a few years.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9317 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 11547 times:

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Thread starter):

I would say unlikely. I wouldn't hold my breath to see much shifting. Maybe consolidation at Boston and maybe Delta metal into a new market or two(SEA maybe an LAX flight) but other than that I wouldn't hold my breath for anything more.



yep.
User currently offlineAV8AJET From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1340 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 11499 times:

So hoping to see a Virgin B744 in ATL in the future!!! We need some more variety in ATL.


"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
User currently offlinepanpan From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 11467 times:

Singapore owned that part of VS for years and they never joined star. Is there evidence that it's gonna go anywhere??? I'm super hopeful BTW.

User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 11462 times:

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 5):
So hoping to see a Virgin B744 in ATL in the future!!! We need some more variety in ATL.

Given the connection possibilities, if it's going to happen anywhere, it'll probably happen there.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7396 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 11338 times:

Quoting panpan (Reply 6):
Singapore owned that part of VS for years and they never joined star. Is there evidence that it's gonna go anywhere??? I'm super hopeful BTW.

If they never went to Star then no one can say if they're going to Sky, despite all of the speculation.

About additional service to hubs, well, that all depends on if VS joins an alliance. I see a flight to ATL though, or additional JFK service.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineAF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 256 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 11252 times:

Quoting panpan (Reply 6):
Singapore owned that part of VS for years and they never joined star. Is there evidence that it's gonna go anywhere??? I'm super hopeful BTW.

True, but VS never cooperated as much with SQ as they will cooperate with DL. I believe the whole VS/DL JV project and DL's strong cooperation with AF-KL will eventually drive VS into Skyteam.


User currently offlinedcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 11198 times:

Quoting AF185 (Reply 9):
True, but VS never cooperated as much with SQ as they will cooperate with DL. I believe the whole VS/DL JV project and DL's strong cooperation with AF-KL will eventually drive VS into Skyteam.

I agree - but it matters more for non-Delta flyers (AF, KLM, etc.) in SkyTeam than for Delta flyers right now, I would presume.

Delta flyers will get alliance-like benefits once the JV closes. I suppose that other SkyTeam flyers will benefit early on only if they have SkyMiles membership but fly other airlines - and most probably wouldn't do that.


User currently offlineNWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11006 times:

I must have missed something..either way i would assume with this type of partnership, why in the world wouldnt they join Skyteam, and right from the get go?

User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 3054 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 10967 times:

Quoting panpan (Reply 6):

Singapore owned that part of VS for years and they never joined star. Is there evidence that it's gonna go anywhere??? I'm super hopeful BTW.

Well, SQ has always seemed the odd one out at Star, doing things for themselves. They haven't been an airline that sponsors others in, etc.

DL on the other hand are seemingly (along with AF/KL) the airline in charge. I would be very surprised if VS doesn't join Skyteam.

I had long hoped VS would enter Star and bring VA/DJ along with them. Now I'm not so hopeful.

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10373 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10836 times:

Quoting panpan (Reply 6):
Singapore owned that part of VS for years and they never joined star. Is there evidence that it's gonna go anywhere??? I'm super hopeful BTW.

As has been said, SQ was a member of Star, but almost like a silent partner.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 8):
Quoting panpan (Reply 6):Singapore owned that part of VS for years and they never joined star. Is there evidence that it's gonna go anywhere??? I'm super hopeful BTW.

If they never went to Star then no one can say if they're going to Sky, despite all of the speculation.

Well, since it was mentioned in the press release, I would imagine there's a pretty good chance that this is what they're working towards. Did we EVER hear anything from SQ or VS on any talks for VS to join Star?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7569 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10807 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 1):
They have not joined SkyTeam, they are just with DL right now.

Not even. An agreement has been signed, but its effectiveness is subject to the satisfaction of a number of conditions, including antitrust approval. In other words, DL has agreed to purchase the VS shares owned by SQ, and SQ has agreed to sell its VS shares to DL, but the transfer (i.e., delivery of the shares) and the payment of the purchase price have not happened yet. A number of things need to happen before this is a done deal. (Don't worry, it will be a done deal... this is standard.)



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10727 times:

Quoting panpan (Reply 6):
Singapore owned that part of VS for years and they never joined star. Is there evidence that it's gonna go anywhere??? I'm super hopeful BTW.

SQ were a pretty silent shareholder and never really pushed VS into an alliance. Pus with UA and BD usally blocking their attempted entry STAR was never really going to be the alliance for VS.

On the otherhand - DL will be a much more active shareholder - just look at the announcement of the JV to see that.

Also the fact that the COO of VS has said they will now evaluate Skyteam entry is saying a lot.


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9317 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10451 times:

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 11):

Not in SkyTeam yet, but I just don't see how they don't try to move Virgin into the AF/KL/AZ JV over time. IMO it just means now Virgin has to sit down and talk to AF/KL group and see about a deal.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 12):
I had long hoped VS would enter Star and bring VA/DJ along with them. Now I'm not so hopeful.

I don't think DJ was going to happen. They also have a JV with Delta.

Anything think this could lead to some kind of deal between DL and VX(codeshare...not the M word)?

Quoting mayor (Reply 13):
Did we EVER hear anything from SQ or VS on any talks for VS to join Star?

not really. lately we have started to hear Alliance talk from VS. It looked like Star would be it (codeshare with BD, SQ owning 49%) but things change fast.....



yep.
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10396 times:
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"Would we see virgin at some of Delta's hubs"?

looking at some Delta's hubs, ATL, SLC, MSP, DTW, MEM, why would Virgin ever want to fly to these places?

Branson would be crazy to send virgin to one those places even if DL owns a piece of VS.


User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10319 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 17):
looking at some Delta's hubs, ATL, SLC, MSP, DTW, MEM, why would Virgin ever want to fly to these places?

Because the whole point of doing this for VS is expanding their reach into the US and Delta will provide pax for them at the DL hubs? It's not really rocket science.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10227 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 17):
looking at some Delta's hubs, ATL, SLC, MSP, DTW, MEM, why would Virgin ever want to fly to these places?

Branson would be crazy to send virgin to one those places even if DL owns a piece of VS.

No he wouldn't. If you look at the AA and BA schedules post ATI, they are now up to five daily flights to AA's hubs at DFW and MIA. If DL want to be a player in the transtlantic market they need decent frequency to their hubs. I would put money on ATL eventually going to five daily and the slots will have to come from somewhere.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8325 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9615 times:
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Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 5):
So hoping to see a Virgin B744 in ATL in the future!!! We need some more variety in ATL.

Atlanta could use some of the "Glow" from Virgin Atlantic, why not offer passengers a Virgin experience from cities Virgin doesn't fly to, ATL is the logical place for this. Detroit would also be a good connecting point. Virign flies to the traditional coastal international hubs, so this benefits them as well as Delta. Maybe Virgin will offer flights to Salt Lake City too.


User currently offlineflybry From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9587 times:

If Virgin Atlantic adds Atlanta, or any other Delta hubs, VA will have to cut flights elsewhere because LHR is slot controlled and it’s not like VA is going to get new slots right? So which flights will VA cut in order to provide service to DL hubs?

User currently offlineVFRontop From Ireland, joined Oct 2012, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9501 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 19):
No he wouldn't. If you look at the AA and BA schedules post ATI, they are now up to five daily flights to AA's hubs at DFW and MIA. If DL want to be a player in the transtlantic market they need decent frequency to their hubs.

Not sure we are comparing like with like here. BA has high demand and yield from O&D traffic to DFW (finance/business/oil) and MIA (premium leasure and Latin/South American gateway)

What has VS to gain other then connection traffic at MSP, SLC, DTW or MEM? I can see the benefits of ATL but other than that I cant see VS serving any other DL hub.

Also where do people think the LHR slots for all these new destinations are going to come from? I see some minor repositioning and shuffling of slots between DL and VS to improve schedules to current destinations but the result will still be net neutral when it comes to airports served.


User currently offlinePilsnerUrquell From Czech Republic, joined Nov 2009, 4 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9491 times:

Nobody mentioned possible Oz connection via LAX.... as BA/AA did it in the past

User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6464 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9248 times:

Quoting dcann40 (Reply 10):
agree - but it matters more for non-Delta flyers (AF, KLM, etc.) in SkyTeam than for Delta flyers right now, I would presume.

I don't quite follow the logic in that statement


User currently offlinevgnatl747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9475 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16):
not really. lately we have started to hear Alliance talk from VS. It looked like Star would be it (codeshare with BD, SQ owning 49%) but things change fast.....

Things do change fast, and we need to be realistic here. VS has always wanted to remain independent. I think they've started to come to the realization that they need to tie the knot with an alliance and it sounded like Star was their preferred path. That said, this investment with Delta changes things (especially with DL now having 3 seats on the VS board). I never say never, but I think it's highly unlikely you're going to see DL "let" VS go to Star while they own 49% of the airline, have 3 votes, and are the major player in SkyTeam. DL is clearly in the drivers seat with this investment/JV, they're not going to saddle up with VS and let them go be best friends with the Star Alliance carriers.

I had been holding out for hope that VS would join Star. I always loved flying with them, but with most of my travel now being domestic I've moved my allegiance to UA/Star. I think it's "highly" unlikely we'll see VS in Star now. I think a) remain independent, or b) join SkyTeam are really their only options.



Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3207 posts, RR: 10
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9364 times:

Quoting vgnatl747 (Reply 25):

I had been holding out for hope that VS would join Star. I always loved flying with them, but with most of my travel now being domestic I've moved my allegiance to UA/Star. I think it's "highly" unlikely we'll see VS in Star now. I think a) remain independent, or b) join SkyTeam are really their only options.

Actually the post about slot controls is relevant. What we already know is this will be metal neutral, so, I'd say this may very well put VS's A380 order back on the cards. This would also probably allow VS to up gage key services, driving down CASM. If that were to happen it might make sense for DL to let VS operate one of its flights to a big hub, and it use the frequency for another city like LAX or NYC. (switching with VS). Or do what they're basically doing with AF out of JFK and let VS operate almost all of the frequencies, freeing up the LHR slots to dig deeper into America, say for SLC flight, or an MSP flight. Or it could also let the operate a higher frequency shuttle the way BA/AA are doing, making them more competitive for the corporate traffic.


User currently offlineglobalflyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 926 posts, RR: 3
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 9157 times:

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 5):
So hoping to see a Virgin B744 in ATL in the future!!! We need some more variety in ATL.


AMEN!!!



Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7569 posts, RR: 43
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8141 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 20):
Maybe Virgin will offer flights to Salt Lake City too.

Maybe seasonal? But then again, I would imagine that Brits ski in the Alps, not in the Rockies, so maybe no.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineLGWflyer From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2011, 2348 posts, RR: 1
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8090 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 28):
Maybe seasonal? But then again, I would imagine that Brits ski in the Alps, not in the Rockies, so maybe no.

I agree maybe seasonal, but you'll be surprised at how many Brits I think would go there. I believe Colorado is already quite popular.

[Edited 2012-12-12 08:34:21]


3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7569 posts, RR: 43
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7496 times:

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 29):
How many Brits I think would go there. I believe Colorado is already quite popular.

Very interesting! Thanks.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently onlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10373 posts, RR: 14
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7502 times:

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 29):

I agree maybe seasonal, but you'll be surprised at how many Brits I think would go there. I believe Colorado is already quite popular.

And SLC is more convenient and accessible to the ski areas than DEN is to theirs.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineadg737800 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2008, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6275 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 28):
Maybe seasonal? But then again, I would imagine that Brits ski in the Alps, not in the Rockies, so maybe no.

North America is a huge, HUGE skiing destination from the UK and it's growing all the time! I'm sure there were or are charters into Denver (Thomson?) during the season for example.



Next flights: LCY-EDI-LCY (BA Cityflyer)
User currently offlinebjwonline From UK - England, joined Mar 2007, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6083 times:

As others have said, I can very easily see VS starting service to ATL for the vast number of connections. I think this would be best served by the B744 for max capacity and the LHR slot could possibly come from the end of the ORD/CPT seasonal services (although an obvious fleet shuffle would be needed as the B744 does not fly to ORD/CPT).

I think this will possibly be the only addition for VS in the USA. Once they get the JV through and are coding on DL to whatever markets they like, there wouldn't be much need to "waste" the LHR slots on US flights. I'm sure DL are well aware of this.

A smart move by DL/VS is for VS to even have a slight reduction in flying to the US with the capacity made back up by DL flying larger planes into LHR. With the gain of slots from VS serving less frequency to the US they could start new services to the Far East (such as ICN for Sky connections) which would allow DL to get a share of the UK-Far East market which they never would have had before.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3207 posts, RR: 10
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5852 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 31):
And SLC is more convenient and accessible to the ski areas than DEN is to theirs

I worked at a risk resort on the Utah side of these rockies 10 years ago, and even back then I had plenty of Brits staying in house, coming in on the then United flight to LHR or BA from DEN or PHX. It surprised me even back then. The snow in the rockies, particularly in utah thanks to the salt lake, is very very dry and lighter than that in the ALPS, so combine that with the spending power in the USA and it becomes a very attractive alternative for quite a few people. You get a whole cabin for the price you'd get a small room for in switzerland, for example. To give you a similar example, Australians have embraced Skiing in Canada over New Zealand which is much much closer (there is a small ski industry in the south of Australia but the mountains just aren't the same size as much of the world). Similar reasons. I think it could do well.


User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5326 times:

Quoting flybry (Reply 21):
If Virgin Atlantic adds Atlanta, or any other Delta hubs, VA will have to cut flights elsewhere because LHR is slot controlled and it’s not like VA is going to get new slots right? So which flights will VA cut in order to provide service to DL hubs?

VS may have slots that are currently not in use. I mean, they've announced 3 shorthaul routes. Obviously those slots didn't magically appear.

Not sure what the rules are for LHR re: slot dormancy, but I am sure some do exist. BA expands and contracts regularly.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2157 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5286 times:

Quoting delimit (Reply 35):
VS may have slots that are currently not in use. I mean, they've announced 3 shorthaul routes. Obviously those slots didn't magically appear.

Those are slots they got from BA as a result of the BA/BD merger. They are required to use them on certain short haul routes for the next few years or give them back. I don't think VS is sitting on a ton of unused slots.

[Edited 2012-12-12 15:41:49]

User currently offlineNWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4713 times:

DL runs Double Daily DTW-LHR in the Summer so thats what got me thinking VS could run one. Obviously theres already slots there for DL, although i dont know how that would work with a VS bird. The alliance with KL and AF have resulted or currently do result in 'sharing' of the hub to hub flights and is also a very nice way to let customers of all main alliance carriers to experience each others product. I think VS to ATL is a for sure and then im pulling for them to take over the second DTWLHR run in 2013..ill be at the end of 21R w camera in tow =)

User currently offlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 802 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4157 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 36):
I don't think VS is sitting on a ton of unused slots.

One of the conditions that an airline applying for the BA 'remedy' slots was that it had to be using all its' current slots. VS had to reclaim two of its slots leased [I think] to Cyprus Airways in order to satisfy this condition. These slots gave rise to the VS LHR-MAN schedule.

So at this time all of VSs existing slots are spoken for and any expansion of TATL routes would almost certainly come at the expense of other existing routes or through the acquisition of slots from other airlines.


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