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DL Acquisition Of VS Make VS A380 More Likely?  
User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 534 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 13847 times:

Hi All,

Sorry for another DL VS acquisition thread. Moderators please delete if necessary. However, it has long been speculated on here that it was highly unlikely that VS (like IT) would ever take the A380's they had on order. The passenger numbers were never there to support that capacity.

However, if the JV deal between DL and VS gets done and dusted, is it now more likely that VS might actually take those planes? Most of you are smarter than me when it comes to projecting or predicting capacity, but I could see if the JV starts going well and is able to generate more passengers (through new corporate or non-corporate deals) places like LAX could possibly take a VS A380 with enough domestic feed on the US and possibly UK side.

That would mean that DL would effectively be selling seats on two (AF and VS) A380s!

Thanks for your thoughts ahead of time.

Regards,

Team


Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3745 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 13831 times:

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Thread starter):
DL VS acquisition thread

DL won't acquire VS, it's only a 49% stake!


User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1496 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 13772 times:

Quoting richardw (Reply 1):
DL won't acquire VS, it's only a 49% stake!

DL has announced the acquisition of a 49% stake in VS. See how well that works?

I'd say it makes the purchase more likely, but I'm still not sure it will happen.


User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 13731 times:

Quoting richardw (Reply 1):

DL won't acquire VS, it's only a 49% stake!

Okay, if you don't work in finance, I can understand how the lingo is confusing. But Delta did AQUIRE a 49% stake in VS. Thus an AQUISITION took place. The term AQUISITION does not necessary connote a majority stake was taken. It means ownership was taken.

Regards,

Team



Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 13617 times:

Question: why would DL favour VS acquiring A380 more than the previous minority shareholder? SIA seems very happy with A380. They have a lot of operating data from which they would have a good idea of the economics TATL.

User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9286 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 13616 times:

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Thread starter):

IMHO no. It doesn't change the key issue with Virgin(no shorthaul feed) and doesn't change this lovely economy.



yep.
User currently offlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4336 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 13586 times:

If anything, it makes a VS acquisition of 777s more likely.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlinerichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3745 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 13586 times:

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 3):
It means ownership was taken.

Nope.

There has been no majority change in ownership of VS.


User currently offlineby738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2256 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 13527 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 5):
It doesn't change the key issue with Virgin(no shorthaul feed)

Im sure I read of upcoming EI A320's ??  


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8272 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 13514 times:
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How does Delta buying 49% of Virgin do anything with Virgin's A380 order ? Those A380's will probably never be built. Virgin will likely take A350-1000 in their place.

User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5158 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 13501 times:

I would say the 380 order will be converted to A350's to replace the 747 fleet.

So eventually they will have 350/787 only - with perhaps some 320's thrown in.= if the shorthaul stuff works.


User currently offlineslinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 818 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 13397 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 5):
IMHO no. It doesn't change the key issue with Virgin(no shorthaul feed) and doesn't change this lovely economy.

VS launches short haul flying on March 31st initially to MAN, EDI and ABZ. Other routes may follow if VS opts to take the other remedy slots awarded to it.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 6):

If anything, it makes a VS acquisition of 777s more likely.

Erm nope IMO, wishful thinking.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
How does Delta buying 49% of Virgin do anything with Virgin's A380 order ? Those A380's will probably never be built. Virgin will likely take A350-1000 in their place.

Absolutely.


User currently onlinexjramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2459 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13103 times:

Quoting richardw (Reply 7):
Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 3):
It means ownership was taken.

Nope.

There has been no majority change in ownership of VS.

The only reason why there was no "majority change in ownership" is because international laws prohibit a foreign carrier from having a majority ownership. Also the reason why VS doesn't own VAustralia or VX, but you know for damn sure SRB has a voice in every single thing either carrier does.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 3):
Okay, if you don't work in finance, I can understand how the lingo is confusing. But Delta did AQUIRE a 49% stake in VS. Thus an AQUISITION took place. The term AQUISITION does not necessary connote a majority stake was taken. It means ownership was taken.

Regards,

Team

Sorry. But while they acquired a 49% ownership of VS, DL did not complete an acquisition of VS. That would require a take over (whether friendly or hostile) of a majority, if not all, of the company and it's assets. DL has specifically stated that they will fly flights based on metal neutrality and this being solely a JV type deal. The brand of VS will not be going away any time soon as it's still in majority control of SRB.



Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlinevgnatl747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 13024 times:

Quoting xjramper (Reply 12):
Sorry. But while they acquired a 49% ownership of VS, DL did not complete an acquisition of VS. That would require a take over (whether friendly or hostile) of a majority, if not all, of the company and it's assets.

  

I wish people would stop calling this a Merger or Acquisition. While they did technically acquire a piece of VS, the team "acquisition" is typically representative of a complete acquisition of the company, which isn't what happened here. DL has no more/less power than SQ had. They own a minority stake with three seats on the board (I believe SQ also had three seats). The only difference here is that I'd expect to see DL do more with their investment than SQ did. Hopefully we'll see better collaboration, and a more concerted effort to benefit both carriers. SQ was really just a silent investor and didn't do much to help/hurt VS.

I doubt DL's three seats would affect VS fleet planning that much. They may have access to better resources now, and be able to make better decisions (if DL is open with operating metrics), but I doubt DL has the power to sway VS away from or to a specific airframe.



Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 12680 times:

Quoting xjramper (Reply 12):
Sorry. But while they acquired a 49% ownership of VS, DL did not complete an acquisition of VS. That would require a take over (whether friendly or hostile) of a majority, if not all, of the company and it's assets. DL has specifically stated that they will fly flights based on metal neutrality and this being solely a JV type deal. The brand of VS will not be going away any time soon as it's still in majority control of SRB.
Quoting vgnatl747 (Reply 13):
the team "acquisition" is typically representative of a complete acquisition of the company, which isn't what happened here. DL has no more/less power than SQ had. They own a minority stake with three seats on the board (I believe SQ also had three seats). The only difference here is that I'd expect to see DL do more with their investment than SQ did. Hopefully we'll see better collaboration, and a more concerted effort to benefit both carriers. SQ was really just a silent investor and didn't do much to help/hurt VS.

Another thread derailed by semantics. Do either of you suspect that VS will come to operate an A380? Or shall we continue to discuss if DL's 49% acquisiton of VS shares is misstated?

Regards,

Team

[Edited 2012-12-12 07:15:42]

[Edited 2012-12-12 07:16:14]


Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6
User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1794 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 12269 times:
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Ok lets get way from the 'semantics'.


The question of whether or not VS will ever take delivery of their A380 order is based on the assumption that VS do not have the market numbers to reliably fill these aircraft profitably.

The VS fleet consists of 44 aircraft, of which 13 are B744. So the A380 is quite the jump in overall capacity. (6 plus 6 options)

The DL purchase of the SQ 49% shareholder gives them seats on the board and opens the way for a DL/VS joint venture across the Atlantic. So if this deal works out then yes we could see VS getting a greater share of the US/UK market. However the A380 order was placed before this deal, so the business case must have been in place for them to order the A380.


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3383 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 12130 times:
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The order was placed when there was a sales rush similar to the 747 rush.. later some airlines realized they were over extended without a sufficient customer base.. in this case Branson's ego probably prompted the order.

As some else noted the A380's will fade to smaller models


User currently offlineAlsatian From France, joined May 2005, 416 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 12029 times:

IMHO the 4 powered A380 is perfect for airlines flying very long routes as SIN-LHR or SYD-LAX. According to their timetable these airlines send the doubledecker to other shorter routes to maximize the schedules. For Virgin + Delta operations from LHR the routes to JFK, ATL or even LAX don't seem long enough.


Ok I am French but I am not on strike
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7171 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11900 times:

Quoting avek00 (Reply 6):
If anything, it makes a VS acquisition of 777s more likely.

I'm not sure about the dissent on this argument but this is what I was thinking, especially since DL now has 3 seats on VS's board



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinemcogator From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11698 times:

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Thread starter):
That would mean that DL would effectively be selling seats on two (AF and VS) A380s!

They already do. You forgot about KE.


User currently offlineVS11 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11593 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 16):
The order was placed when there was a sales rush similar to the 747 rush.. later some airlines realized they were over extended without a sufficient customer base.. in this case Branson's ego probably prompted the order.

Rather wrong - simply nobody at VS or elsewhere expected the world economy to plunge into this horrendous recession. That's all. No ego involved. Buying planes is a very long-term decision - unfortunately nobody has a crystal ball...


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5158 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11501 times:

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 15):

The VS fleet consists of 44 aircraft, of which 13 are B744. So the A380 is quite the jump in overall capacity.

Well VS 747's from LGW have 455 passengers... which is about the same as some A380 operators


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12325 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11414 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):
Quoting avek00 (Reply 6):
If anything, it makes a VS acquisition of 777s more likely.

I'm not sure about the dissent on this argument but this is what I was thinking, especially since DL now has 3 seats on VS's board

Right, but not the one SRB sits in.

I think we need to consider some facts:

1) VS pilots are trained for Airbus aircraft
2) Airbus has a chunk of VS money as deposits for the A380s

which makes purchase of Airbus products far more likely than 777s.

People are over-emphasizing what role DL will play. They can't ever control VS, and they can sell off their shares just like SQ just did, so VS is not going to let DL ingest them. VS will remain a stand-alone entity.

Both sides hope the JV will pump money into both entities' hands, but that's about it.

If it does, I'm convinced we'll see VS buying new Airbus products, almost certainly A350s.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5158 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11346 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
1) VS pilots are trained for Airbus aircraft

They are also trained on the Boeing 747.... and in the near future the Boeing 787.....


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11299 times:

Quoting xjramper (Reply 12):
The brand of VS will not be going away any time soon as it's still in majority control of SRB.

Actually, it's the other way around...SRB is in majority control of VS.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlinePSA727LAX From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11621 times:

Certainly I can see VS buying A350s but not the 380. If anything they go with the 747-8's as a replacement of 744's & A346's still in the fleet. That would also fit with a possible DL buy of the 747-8 for the NWA 744's they inherited. Maybe they announce a joint buy of 747-8's & A350's by spring.

User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6707 posts, RR: 32
Reply 26, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11520 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
2) Airbus has a chunk of VS money as deposits for the A380s

It's very likely that VS has the right to ask Airbus to refund that money without penalty given the lengthy A380 delays.

Quoting VS11 (Reply 20):
simply nobody at VS or elsewhere expected the world economy to plunge into this horrendous recession. That's all. No ego involved. Buying planes is a very long-term decision

I'd also argue that no one at VS in 2000 thought that Bermuda II would be gone within a decade. VS's position as one of the four carriers permitted to have a substantial presence between LHR & the U.S. has been eroded with the rise of the global alliances and the entry of all the U.S. legacy carriers into LHR.


User currently onlinexjramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2459 posts, RR: 51
Reply 27, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11522 times:

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 14):
Another thread derailed by semantics. Do either of you suspect that VS will come to operate an A380? Or shall we continue to discuss if DL's 49% acquisiton of VS shares is misstated?

Regards,

Team

Au contraire, you have to know the definition of what actually happened in order of how to appropriately respond to the question at hand.

If DL acquired VS, then DL would be calling the shots, not VS/SRB, therefore the A380 would almost be placed on the back burner or changed as DL's model doesn't require that type of aircraft in their fleet. Look at the 787 order that NW had on order prior to the merger back in 2007. DL has no intention of bringing that aircraft into the fleet, since they deferred the order again until closer to 2020. Same would apply to the A380, albeit in a different capacity (no pun intended).

But since there hasn't been a change of leadership or ownership, and has been stated above, VS has a bunch of money invested in the purchase of A380s. The only thing that has changed will be the addition of joint DL and VS flight numbers and reciprocal frequent flyer benefits.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 24):
Quoting xjramper (Reply 12):
The brand of VS will not be going away any time soon as it's still in majority control of SRB.

Actually, it's the other way around...SRB is in majority control of VS.

Hahaha. Touche  



Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12325 posts, RR: 25
Reply 28, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11315 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 26):
It's very likely that VS has the right to ask Airbus to refund that money without penalty given the lengthy A380 delays.

Both Airbus and VS have been very coy about the exact status of that order, but the last official word I can find is that as of 2006 they were "delayed" to 2013:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/vir...der&siteid=mktw&link=&keyword=A380

I suppose some time next year they'll kick the can down the road a bit further?

Of course they had the chance to speak to it when the A333s were ordered, but AFAIK they did not.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKaiTak747 From Switzerland, joined Aug 2012, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11035 times:

I think the fact that DL has acquired 49% of VS is irrelevant to the A380 question. DL would like VS to be profitable, and twins are far less of a risk than the A380.

VS relies heavily on O&D traffic, unlike BA who have far more connecting traffic through LHR. VS would buy A380s if they could fill them, year round, with good yields. I don't think there are any destinations that could achieve this aim, let alone occupy 6-12 A380s. Maybe they could offload the order to BA and stick with the 787-9, or more likely convert to A350.


User currently offlineSEA From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10978 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
1) VS pilots are trained for Airbus aircraft

Apart from the ones who are trained for the 744   


User currently offlineVS11 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10600 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 26):
Quoting VS11 (Reply 20):
simply nobody at VS or elsewhere expected the world economy to plunge into this horrendous recession. That's all. No ego involved. Buying planes is a very long-term decision

I'd also argue that no one at VS in 2000 thought that Bermuda II would be gone within a decade. VS's position as one of the four carriers permitted to have a substantial presence between LHR & the U.S. has been eroded with the rise of the global alliances and the entry of all the U.S. legacy carriers into LHR.

Yes, I agree - opening up LHR did impact obviously the capacity question but in general my idea was that the A380 decision had been made long time ago in a very different world.


User currently offlinewaly777 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2012, 327 posts, RR: 3
Reply 32, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10563 times:

This may answer some of your questions

"I know for sure it is a lot better return than buying an A380" is a quote from Richard Anderson.

http://skift.com/2012/12/12/breaking...ake-place-shortly-and-supports-it/



The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12325 posts, RR: 25
Reply 33, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 10289 times:

Quoting SEA (Reply 30):
Apart from the ones who are trained for the 744

Ok, should have said "many" or some such. Their wiki page has their fleet at 31 Airbus vs 13 744s, but I'm sure yourself or someone else will come along and correct me if I'm wrong!  



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1496 posts, RR: 2
Reply 34, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 10017 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
Ok, should have said "many" or some such. Their wiki page has their fleet at 31 Airbus vs 13 744s, but I'm sure yourself or someone else will come along and correct me if I'm wrong!

And soon the 787s of course.

I do have to wonder though, if VS is in the same position TG was; that they signed a contract that will not let them change models.


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6707 posts, RR: 32
Reply 35, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9916 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 28):
Both Airbus and VS have been very coy about the exact status of that order

Airbus seems incredibly reluctant to ever cancel orders unless it's absolutely necessary to do so. They're still showing orders for 5 A350-800's and 5 A380's for Kingfisher and I think it's more likely that WN will operate A380's than IT. The undelivered A340-500 orders for IT were cancelled because the program was being terminated; the same is true of the FX and 5X orders for the A380F. Not that the flexibility on Airbus's part is bad for the customer at all -- I just give a bit less credence to the existence of the order if it seems unlikely that the customer will really take delivery. And the A380 delays most likely gave VS the right to cancel without penalty, just as the 787 delays provided the same opportunity for Boeing's customers. With the issues in the A380 production ramp-up, I don't doubt that Airbus was happy to let VS postpone indefinitely to make room for more impatient customers.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12325 posts, RR: 25
Reply 36, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9421 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 35):
The undelivered A340-500 orders for IT were cancelled because the program was being terminated; the same is true of the FX and 5X orders for the A380F.

Which might imply that the VS A380 orders will sit on the books till the A380 program is terminated, which even in my pessimistic mind would not be for many, many years, which will mean countless questions here on a.net. I hope the DL JV gives VS lots of income, but one wonders if it's enough to be going out and taking up A380s for quite a long time.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9286 posts, RR: 14
Reply 37, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7255 times:

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 11):

VS launches short haul flying on March 31st initially to MAN, EDI and ABZ. Other routes may follow if VS opts to take the other remedy slots awarded to it.

I know this. 3 cities doesn't give them a real short haul network. Its a step, but its nearly impossible for VS to build a real network from LHR.

Quoting anstar (Reply 10):

I would say the 380 order will be converted to A350's to replace the 747 fleet.

agreed.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 19):
They already do. You forgot about KE.

and CZ

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
1) VS pilots are trained for Airbus aircraft

but have 747s and 787s (on the way)
This is a non-issue for buying airplanes. That said, I don't see why VS would order T7s.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
2) Airbus has a chunk of VS money as deposits for the A380s

a big reason to move said money to the 350...

Quoting xjramper (Reply 27):
Au contraire, you have to know the definition of what actually happened in order of how to appropriately respond to the question at hand.

If DL acquired VS, then DL would be calling the shots, not VS/SRB, therefore the A380 would almost be placed on the back burner or changed as DL's model doesn't require that type of aircraft in their fleet. Look at the 787 order that NW had on order prior to the merger back in 2007. DL has no intention of bringing that aircraft into the fleet, since they deferred the order again until closer to 2020. Same would apply to the A380, albeit in a different capacity (no pun intended).

But since there hasn't been a change of leadership or ownership, and has been stated above, VS has a bunch of money invested in the purchase of A380s. The only thing that has changed will be the addition of joint DL and VS flight numbers and reciprocal frequent flyer benefits.

Ok, so we wont just let it go then. Why don't you post one more time and just try to keep this thread off topic. I don't think your doing a good enough job.  
Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
Ok, should have said "many" or some such. Their wiki page has their fleet at 31 Airbus vs 13 744s, but I'm sure yourself or someone else will come along and correct me if I'm wrong!

but some of the 340s are leaving to be replaced by 787s.



yep.
User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9975 posts, RR: 96
Reply 38, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6917 times:
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Quoting ScottB (Reply 26):
It's very likely that VS has the right to ask Airbus to refund that money without penalty given the lengthy A380 delays.

I'm not convinced of that as in most cases it has been VS who have been delaying the delivery date.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 28):
Both Airbus and VS have been very coy about the exact status of that order, but the last official word I can find is that as of 2006 they were "delayed" to 2013:

Just this summer VS said the order still stood.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 35):
Airbus seems incredibly reluctant to ever cancel orders unless it's absolutely necessary to do so. They're still showing orders for 5 A350-800's and 5 A380's for Kingfisher

???
I'm not sure why we have to go through this seemingly perennial charade.

Airbus are legally obliged to retain the order until the legalities of cancelling it are properly followed through - you know, like the return of deposits, cancellation charges, litigation etc.
Airbus can't cancel the orders. Only the customer can.
When Airbus canned the old" A350 and replaced it with the new one, the last "old" A350 orders took 3 or 4 years to be worked out.
You'll have to deal with it, I'm afraid

Rgds


User currently offlineaircanada014 From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 1513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5341 times:

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Reply 3):

Do you have the link to confirm delta acquired vs?


User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1496 posts, RR: 2
Reply 40, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5111 times:

Quoting aircanada014 (Reply 39):
Do you have the link to confirm delta acquired vs?

Jesus. It's obvious he's referring to Delta's acquisition of 49% of VS. The word acquisition does not mean they took control. All you people objecting to it really need to hit a dictionary.


User currently offlinedelta88 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4860 times:
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IMHO i dont think Virgin Atlantic would ever take delivery of any short haul airliners. With the Virgin Atlantic Group in Place, there is no need for it, each airline in the group has built up their own fleets to suit the needs of where the airlines operate. However Virgin still wants the A380, they put off delivery for a few years to prove to the Airlines that they could handle it. Delta owns 49% of it, and Delta may have a more say so in whether or not they take delivery of it, but Delta has no physical control of the Airline. But In all honesty, i dont this this Acquisition changes the A380 prospects of the Airline. 2014 is still 2 years away and we have yet to see what the economy will bring us.


707,717,727,738,744,752,762ER,763ER,772ER,MD82,MD-83,MD-88, DC-9-10,DC-10-10,A320
User currently onlinexjramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2459 posts, RR: 51
Reply 42, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4357 times:

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 37):
Ok, so we wont just let it go then. Why don't you post one more time and just try to keep this thread off topic. I don't think your doing a good enough job.

Maybe I'm mis-reading this from the OP, but tell me how what I wrote is off topic.

Quoting TeamInTheSky (Thread starter):
Sorry for another DL VS acquisition thread. Moderators please delete if necessary. However, it has long been speculated on here that it was highly unlikely that VS (like IT) would ever take the A380's they had on order. The passenger numbers were never there to support that capacity.

However, if the JV deal between DL and VS gets done and dusted, is it now more likely that VS might actually take those planes?
Quoting delimit


(Reply 40):
Jesus. It's obvious he's referring to Delta's acquisition of 49% of VS. The word acquisition does not mean they took control. All you people objecting to it really need to hit a dictionary.
http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/acquisition.html For the lazy and fear I might steer "this thread off topic".  
Quoting astuteman (Reply 38):
Airbus can't cancel the orders. Only the customer can.

Airbus (or any mfg group) can cancel an order if the receiving party doesn't oblige by their end of the contract. It's mainly a tit-for-tat in this situation, as Airbus (and boeing) had production delays, meaning the mfg also broke the contract. It's been an eye opening experience for those who are new to this arena as neither mfg group stood up to their delivery dates.



Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlineJamBrain From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2008, 251 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4228 times:

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 29):
I think the fact that DL has acquired 49% of VS is irrelevant to the A380 question. DL would like VS to be profitable, and twins are far less of a risk than the A380.

The facts on just one route
........that Delta bring 29 flights into EWR with huge quantity of corporates
........VS o/d demand currently requires a daily 744 configured as 44 32 344 and a 346
........EWR-LHR traffic from DL feed is currently split 3 ways and will now be 100% VS
And this in no way has any relevance to the size of VS equipment in the future?

I must be missing something (compared to multiple frequency 788s) CASM leadership combined with best product doesn't seem the most risky strategy (I'm not saying it's the best strategy but I would not describe it as high risk more as a very safe money spinner)

There are lots of different daily combinations to right size route e.g. 388 + 767 is not much more then 744 + 346 and VS DL now have more flexibility.

In the modern outsourced MRO environment the cost of a small fleet doesn't have to be crippling.



Jambrain
User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1496 posts, RR: 2
Reply 44, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3962 times:

Quoting xjramper (Reply 42):
For the lazy and fear I might steer "this thread off topic".  

An acquisition is a purchase. Saying Delta acquired 49% of VS is perfectly correct.

Welcome to English. Words have multiple meanings.


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