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Is It Goodbye To The B748i?  
User currently offlineairlinebuilder From Philippines, joined Nov 2012, 183 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 44908 times:

It is evident, there seem to be no trend of interest from airlines to even give the B748i a second look. The current preference has gone to the twins and the only quads getting orders is the A380.

Is Boeing just going to allow the B748i to meet a natural death? or there is no life to speak of to begin with since the Lufthansa B748i is not for the books, the number just does not put on any significance at all?

All the rumored potential B748i has just gone to thin air......this is quite alarming unless Boeing could not care less at all then that is another story  

161 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 44425 times:

The freighter still has a market, even though the global finances are in the trash can now, it will pick up some day and if they make freighters they can make passenger aircraft. Even though the 777-9X probably will kill the 748i for good.

They should have gone for a re engine on the 747-400F and stayed with that. Hindsight is as always..


User currently offlineairlinebuilder From Philippines, joined Nov 2012, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 44060 times:

Given that the freighter is still a lifeline for the 7478F but I was referring to the 7478i, there seem to be no effort or a sense of loss for Boeing that all orders on VLA has unfortunately bypassed the 7478i.

Does anyone think that the 7478i is just a spill over of the 7478F program?


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 43645 times:

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 2):
all orders on VLA has unfortunately bypassed the 7478i

Well, except for the 12 customers that did order it (as compared to 20 that ordered the A380). Hardly what Boeing was hoping for, I'm sure, but hardly *all* orders bypassed it. The difference between the 747-8i and A380 is much more in the number of airframes per order than in the number of orders.

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 2):
Does anyone think that the 7478i is just a spill over of the 7478F program?

In hindsight, yes.

Tom.


User currently offlinedcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 43551 times:

I echo others' sentiments: as long as there are freighter customers, Boeing can justify continuing the 748i program.

User currently offlinePillowTester From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 43334 times:

Doesn't Boeing still make passenger 767 variants largely because of the tanker programme keeps the line alive? Freighters and passenger 747s are not made separately are they? What difference does it make if they don't make a passenger model for awhile... there's no need to "shut down the line"


...said Dan jubilantly.
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 43248 times:

Quoting PillowTester (Reply 5):
Doesn't Boeing still make passenger 767 variants largely because of the tanker programme keeps the line alive?


You are correct. I was at PAE a week ago for factory tour and the 767 line is still open.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2626 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 43256 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting dcann40 (Reply 4):
as long as there are freighter customers, Boeing can justify continuing the 748i program.

  

I agree. The 747-8 is here to stay for quite some time, regardless of whether there are any passenger models being sold. So to answer the question, no, the 747-8i will still be around. As long as there are orders for the freighter (and/or VIP aicraft), the 747-8 line will remain open. It is not dependent on the sales of the passenger model.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7073 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 42951 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
I bet Lufthansa got a major discount on their 748i just to give the programme some credibility. Those aircraft will probably be converted to freighters soon.

A major airline needs to be seen flying the latest equipment. Passengers will see an airframe they recognise as a vintage 747-400.

Doubtful, LH will fly them for a long time, only a few passengers have a clue what they are flying on anyway  



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6456 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 42858 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):

Vast majority of pax are NOT a.net nerds-------they have no idea how old an aircraft

@ TPA one day, an old lady was looking down to an aircraft. "OOOOOH, LOOK HOW BIG THAT PLANE IS, IT MUST BE GOING OVERSEAS!"

I chuckled silently------yep, that MD-80 is going overseas!



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineLGWflyer From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2011, 2348 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 42724 times:

Should Boeing have started thinking about building a newer aircraft i.e the 797 than re-doing an already successful aircraft... As it is successful already I doubt we would have seen airlines swap their current 744's for the 748. The 747 worked brilliantly over the years as we all know, but now with the new times and new rivals the 747 should have stayed as it was, and time to start looking to the future for new designed planes.

Boeing has the right idea building a new aircraft like the 787 rather than another 757/767. The 787 has done quite well so far and I expect it to do great in the future!

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 10):
Vast majority of pax are NOT a.net nerds-------they have no idea how old an aircraft
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 10):
I chuckled silently------yep, that MD-80 is going overseas!

Haha.  Sure it wasn't an Airbus A747?   



3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 41969 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 10):
an old lady

Well, she was just accustomed to DC-3s on the domestic flights  


User currently onlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3282 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 41066 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 9):
only a few passengers have a clue what they are flying on anyway

Surley EVERY pax knows what types of aircraft they are flying on, they ALL read the Safety Card.           



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineTriple7X From Singapore, joined Dec 2012, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 40406 times:

I felt like the B747-8i are aircraft designed to fit very 'special' markets, as the B747-8I is somewhat between the twin engine triple 7 and larger A380s as such most airline will rather go for the 777 or A380 instead


Just a 16 year old who loves aviation :)
User currently offlinerbgso From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 40032 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
A major airline needs to be seen flying the latest equipment.

How do then explain the success of DL, who is the posterchild for flying old, and often orphan, aircraft types?


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31060 posts, RR: 87
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 39873 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
I bet Lufthansa got a major discount on their 748i just to give the programme some credibility.

LH has long wanted a larger 747. If anything, they were the ones twisting Boeing's arm to build the 747-8 Intercontinental.


If Boeing was willing to give away 747-8's to secure orders, one would think they'd have more orders, wouldn't you?


I've long been on record as believe the 747-8 program was a mistake, but what's done is done. On the plus side, Boeing has lightened the structure by 2.5 tons and GE is continuing to work to bring the GEnx-2B to spec (or better) and Boeing is working to enable the tail fuel tank. All of this will reduce fuel burn and increase range at high payload weights, which is where the 747-8 has the advantage over the 777-300ER...

...though it's still at a fair disadvantage to the A380-800, which is the real problem, IMO. If you can justify a VLA, the A380-800 is the better VLA.


User currently offlineJHCRJ700 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 39723 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
I bet Lufthansa got a major discount on their 748i just to give the programme some credibility. Those aircraft will probably be converted to freighters soon.

Do you mean convert their orders? or Actually convert the brand new 748s?

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 10):
@ TPA one day, an old lady was looking down to an aircraft. "OOOOOH, LOOK HOW BIG THAT PLANE IS, IT MUST BE GOING OVERSEAS!"

I chuckled silently------yep, that MD-80 is going overseas!

LOL! I was down at BWI a few years back and a father was telling his son that every WN737 was a 747. Ordinarily I don't bother, but I informed him that they were indeed 737's and you can tell a 747 by the upper deck and four engines. Needless to say he wasn't too happy about being corrected.



RUSH
User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5529 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 39642 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
Those aircraft will probably be converted to freighters soon.

LH has a history of flying the wings off its aircraft and will do so with its 748s. These are more capable and efficient than their A346, which won't be going away anytime soon either.


User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 39639 times:

Quoting rbgso (Reply 15):
How do then explain the success of DL, who is the posterchild for flying old, and often orphan, aircraft types?

The DC-9-50, MD-80/90 series and arriving 717s are not "orphans". They are fully supported by Boeing.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4252 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 39647 times:

Quoting Triple7X (Reply 14):
I felt like the B747-8i are aircraft designed to fit very 'special' markets, as the B747-8I is somewhat between the twin engine triple 7 and larger A380s as such most airline will rather go for the 777 or A380 instead

The 747 has been a staple at airports around the world. The A380 is Airbus's counter to the 747 and their answer to the market studies they did when they looked at markets and the forecast demand which did not take into effect the current economic climate which is in the toilet and waiting to be flushed. The 747 for the last 40 years has been queen of the sky and will probably be around for many years to come. The Airbus product is really a great product and if not for the current state of the world economy would probably have done much better than it has. Having said that, the A380 maybe more aircraft then what the airlines really need and due to economic reasons, may never have a need for. If you will, the Ford Edsel of the airline world.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineCargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1272 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 39343 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
Those aircraft will probably be converted to freighters soon.

I can say with 100% certainty that they will not. There might come a day when the 747-8i has a conversion program, but that day is very, very far off. Expect LH to fly the 747-8i fleet for at least another 12-18 years, minimum.

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
Passengers will see an airframe they recognise as a vintage 747-400.

Passengers see a brand new cabin on a brand new plane, and quite a nice one at that. Well done Lufthansa.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 39274 times:

Quoting PillowTester (Reply 5):
Doesn't Boeing still make passenger 767 variants largely because of the tanker programme keeps the line alive?

They still *offer* 767 passenger variants because the line is open and the marginal cost to keep the option is low. They're still actually making passenger variants right now primarily to burn down the very small remaining backlog and to satisfy some orders placed to placate late 787s.

Quoting PillowTester (Reply 5):
Freighters and passenger 747s are not made separately are they?

They come down the same final assembly line and much of the tooling is common. However, there are some significant part differences (primarily in the hump, main deck floor, nose, and interior).

Quoting PillowTester (Reply 5):
What difference does it make if they don't make a passenger model for awhile... there's no need to "shut down the line"

There is cost to maintaining the capability to build the interior...as long as there is some demand it makes sense but they can't maintain 747-8i capability indefinitely without spending money on it.

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):

I bet Lufthansa got a major discount on their 748i just to give the programme some credibility. Those aircraft will probably be converted to freighters soon.

Why on earth would they convert them to freighters? Twenty 747-8i's is a *lot* of lift...if LH needed that much freighter capacity, they'd have bought 747-8F's. The business case to convert new -8i's to -8BCF's would be absolutely atrocious.

Quoting JHCRJ700 (Reply 18):
LOL! I was down at BWI a few years back and a father was telling his son that every WN737 was a 747.

I had some interns on a flightline once who looked at a 737 and thought it was a 747. Yes, airplanes look bigger from the ramp, but still...

Tom.


User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2244 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 38134 times:

Ignoring EK, the A380 isn't flying off the shelves either, despite the current rumour of a "significant A380" order being talking about.

The current economy and positioning of airlines has more to do with the lack of orders than either the A380 and B748 programs. This is a significant economic downturn and airlines will have to have much more confidence before committing to large jumps in capacity. I think we are going to see a lot more of airlines taking a piece of other carriers, mergers, and other market rationalization before we see huge leaps in capacity. The cross Atlantic co-ops, potential for cross-pacific co-ops, and other cross border co-ops have to start to shake out before we start to see significant new orders versus just modernization. Too much capacity has killed airlines recently and the shakeout is still being felt during these tough times.

It is also down to whether the Airbus or Boeing estimate of the market size proves true in the short term. Boeing has always estimated the market for VLA substantially lower than Airbus. So while Boeing likely would love more orders, they did the 748i because of their estimate of the market. The F version was always thought to be the sales leader version of the two with the i providing incremental orders.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 37300 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
I bet Lufthansa got a major discount on their 748i just to give the programme some credibility. Those aircraft will probably be converted to freighters soon.

LH was the launch customer for the B-748i. From what everyone seems to think, LH is very pleased with the bigger B-747. It has a premimum service their A-380s don't have. LH flies their B-748s with some 365 seays, yet fly their A-388s with about 525 seats.

LH has options of 20 more B-748s, atop their firm 20. My guess is some of these options will be exercised.

Ther have been some 41 firm B-748i orders, LH = 20, KE = 5, VIP/BBJ = 9, W3 = 2, and CA = 5. UN has a LOI for 4 B-748Is, and there are still another 15 -8Is from a UFO from the PAS in 2011.

I would not be surprized for B-747-8i orders from BA, AF, VS, UA, QF, and DL sometime in the future.

There is wide spectulation the B-748i will be selected for the next Air Force 1, replacing two B-742s with 3 B-748s.

Do you think EK got a major discount for the 90 strong A-388 orders?


User currently offlineLuxair747SP From Germany, joined May 2010, 508 posts, RR: 18
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 36852 times:

With more and more post going to be off-topic, can we please all go back to the topic the poster asked about?

Thanks and Rgds,

Johannes/Luxair747SP


25 Post contains images Wilco737 : I just flew the 748i today. From the pilots perspective it is a great airplane. Well, passenger indeed often doesn't know how old an airplane is. Mayb
26 tp1040 : Aren't there already a number of discussions on this?
27 tugger : To answer simply and completely, yes Boeing will allow the 747-8i to meet a natural death, but that is going to likely be many years off. This is bec
28 Post contains images N14AZ : @ airlinebuilder: just one or two weeks ago we had a very similar if not identical thread. I am sure you still can find it if you look at page 2 or 3
29 cosmofly : With the talk of 77X and an improving A388, IMHO the probability of finding a good business case to build a 748i fleet will be very low. If the econom
30 ER757 : With the possible exception of DL, I sure would be surprised. Quoting babybus (Reply 8): I bet Lufthansa got a major discount on their 748i just to g
31 sweair : Cost per seat of the 748i was close to the 77W I read, it can´t be that crappy? What it offer is space, way above the 777, 360 seats in a 748i is not
32 KC135TopBoom : I did not list the freight airlines who ordered the B-747-8F, only the airlines that ordered the "I" model. I could go ad list the freight airlines,
33 danielkandi : PEOPLE stopped caring. Thats the truth. Thats why no one in masses demand a certain brand of aircraft anymore. I wish people would complain to airline
34 yyz717 : Let's remember that a large number of 744 and 744F aircraft remain in service, most of which will need replacing increasingly as the decade progresses
35 Stitch : I'd like to know what the trip costs comparisons are like - not just to the 77W, but also the A388.
36 NWADTWE16 : Why did Boeing develop this 748-I without a stretch upper deck? Ive always wondered..it makes it look like an old model, and being so long its just no
37 7BOEING7 : Then it would be just another boring airplane--eye of the beholder.
38 denverdanny : If it cut into airbus' profit margin on the a380 while selling some frames on the side, seems like it was a good idea to me. looks cool, so we'd beref
39 kanban : take another look, the 8i has a stretched upper. or are you questioning why it doesn't run to the tail? now that would be ugly.
40 Stitch : The upper deck was stretched 4.1m compared to previous models. The upper deck was not stretched the length of the fuselage because it likely would ha
41 tdscanuck : So did Wilco737...his office just has a better view than ours. The 747-8i does have a stretched upper deck...that's one of the differences between th
42 MD-90 : And probably another emergency exit door.
43 NWADTWE16 : I definetely was not referring to an extended deck to the tail..upon second glance at LH 747 it clearly is beautifully extended. I guess i just saw so
44 Post contains images seabosdca : All of the 748 BBJ pics I've seen so far show the normal passenger 748 upper deck... here are four separate BBJ frames with it.
45 Post contains images NWADTWE16 : Clearly im losing my mind then sorry
46 flightsimer : Remember, the BBJs won't be flying with any meaningful cargo. I'm sure the cargo holds can be used as additional living space as it is done with both
47 Post contains images DocLightning : Go ahead. Rub it in. Wilco, I've heard that the 747 cockpit in general is noisy. Is that the case on the -8? Yes, but most of us don't have thrust le
48 Post contains images zippyjet : No, I believe that was a Lockheed Constellation DC-7! Regarding the 747-8, I guess Boeing was trying to evolve the Baluga jumbo like with the 737. Th
49 7BOEING7 : I'll rephrase my reply--the 747-8F is almost as ugly as the Armstrong Whitworth Argosy, but the 747-8I is a thing of true beauty. From the beginning
50 Post contains images Wilco737 : The -400 is pretty loud up there indeed. You cannot sit there without the headphones on. The -8i is a little quiter as the engines are quite far away
51 n729pa : Just like the B747 did circa in the mid 1970s. Sales picked up from 1979/80 onwards and we started to see two things new orders from a fair number of
52 airlinebuilder : I believe (marketing side) Boeing missed out on what Airbus was able to do with the A380 in particular through EK to create a somehow atmosphere of a
53 airlinebuilder : Perhaps the B748i will just settle to be the "then" B743 story, there was not much sale and eventually super ceded by the B744. Meaning, the only rede
54 Rara : Wouldn't a decrease of fuel prices be much better for the 748i? I could imagine that an increase of fuel prices would favour the twins and perhaps th
55 FlyCaledonian : If I recall, the 747-8i isn't available as a combi is it? If it were I wonder if KL would have ordered some by now to replace someof its 747-400 combi
56 B777LRF : Correct. Certification requirements makes it impossible to load main-deck cargo behind a passenger compartment. Airbus could, theoretically, make an
57 airlinebuilder : I have a question, why is the Boeing 748i not being taken on a tour like the industrious people at Airbus. The A380 for example is now in Hong Kong fl
58 Revelation : Right. A lot of the decisions were made in the 2004/5 time frame, when the economy was still solid and when the 787s issues weren't known. Unfortunat
59 tdscanuck : It's noisy...less engine noise than the -400 but more ECS noise. When I flew the 747-8 (I did the F, never the i), I swapped out my Telex 650 for Bos
60 Stitch : Such a plan would have been easier with the 747-400 since it was already paid for. Also, if this was the real goal of the 747-8 program, why wait unt
61 pnwtraveler : When threads like this show up so frequently when a simple search would show dozens of them, as a marketer I get very suspicious. Now no aircraft anal
62 slider : What few people haven't really cited in their opinions or analysis of this is the matter of TIMING. Timing is everything, as they say. And Boeing hit
63 SQ773 : I would not say good bye to the 748i so fast. Remember the A330 ? It was a sleeping beauty for years. Look now the 333 and the 332.. Let´s wait the L
64 Revelation : Those would have been stretches with "wings based on 777" but not sure what engines would have been available in that time frame to make it worth bri
65 SEPilot : That's not what Boeing was saying at the time. They were expecting 2/3 or so of the orders to be -8i's. I suspect that -8F orders have been below wha
66 Viscount724 : BBJ 748s are the passenger version. There is no option of the short upper deck. That's for the freighter only.
67 art : Even if orders (and deliveries) of 748i become extremely infrequent, I can see that the Boeing assembly line could handle such a situation. But how d
68 Areopagus : Ah, well, my BIL once insisted to me that he had flown back from Spain on a B-1 Backfire airliner.
69 777STL : The issue is more with the economics of the 744 than it is the age/cycles of older build aircraft. QF, SQ, JL, NZ and several other airlines are reti
70 ncfc99 : Boeing planned the ratio to be about 2:1 in favour of the 748i, IIRC. Various reasons have made that planned assumption incorrect. Again, we now have
71 bmacleod : Does the President really need a 747? Wasn't the VC-25 built for a 25-30 year operational period? That's put it operating until around 2020, by that t
72 Post contains images SEPilot : If the presidential aircraft get replaced in the foreseeable future (i.e. before about 2025) they will be replaced with 748's, period. Airbus has dec
73 Post contains images Stitch : But if the goal was to cost Airbus money on A380 orders, it didn't matter how "good" the 747X and 747X Stretch would have been as Boeing would not ha
74 travelhound : I think the fuel efficiency claims of the A380 over the 747-8 is somewhat exaggerated. Lufthansa claim their A380's deliver 3.4l/100 klm where as the
75 flyingclrs727 : The 743 did its job to keep the 747 line moving while Boeing developed the 744.
76 Post contains images worldrider : do you really think LH didnt a a sweet price for the 748i? as a much needed launch costumer..? and don't you think LH hasn't taken into account the h
77 CXfirst : Reminds me of what a classmate presented in a economics class I was in. Her project was on the monopolistic market of aircraft producers and thought
78 travelhound : I'm not arguing against the 748i or Lufthansa. I am just trying to point out there are multiple aspects to an aircraft's economics with fuel efficien
79 747classic : This statement is NOT true, it's one of the A-net myths. A 747-8I-combi could be certified today, but would probably need a redesigned (fixed) partit
80 Post contains images Stitch : Do you really think LH didn't get a sweet price for the A380-800 as a much needed launch customer? As to Lufthansa's reported fuel burn differences p
81 Post contains images neutrino : It could be a Comac Concorde
82 sweair : Its not age for the presidents planes, its availability of parts that will force the change to a newer model. With time an older frame gets more expen
83 Post contains links ferpe : I would also like to understand why the 748i is not selling better, I suspect it is mostly a B problem but would like to have that confirmed. What on
84 RayChuang : I think one airline could save the 747-8I production line: Cathay Pacific (CX). If Airbus cannot guarantee the current-production A380-800 can fly on
85 Post contains images Stitch : The reason I am interested in the trip costs of the 747-8 compared to the A380-800 is that Boeing's head of the 747 program has stated that the 747-8
86 travelhound : I suspect it has something to do with the success of the 777 and the price premium it commands in the market place. As per Boeing's website the 777 s
87 travelhound : ... but remember the same (or very similar) maths can be used for the 748i over the 777 and the 777 is still winning the sales battle. My numbers sug
88 Stitch : The 747-8 is about 35% larger than the 777-300ER in terms of cabin floor area, which no doubt helps equalize the seat-mile costs between the two plan
89 mariner : What a sad way to sell an aircraft. mariner
90 travelhound : Using LH's fuel efficiency numbers and seat counts and assuming six 6000nm flight per week fifty weeks of the year, the 748i has operating costs of $
91 Post contains images art : Don't open that can of worms - next thing might be GOI banning all B748i's from Indian airspace until AI places an order.
92 koruman : Was it ever 'hello"? One airline, 16 frames. It makes Concorde look like a best-seller.
93 CXB77L : How did you work that out? LH has 20 firm + 20 options, KE has 5, CA has 5, W3 has 2, along with 9 VIP customers, bringing the Intercontinental's ord
94 Post contains images ferpe : Sorry, didn't get it first time around, here the trip fuel for the 3 frames: A380 222t, 748i 173t and 77W 131t. Now you come up with the price per to
95 Cerecl : A380's fuel burn figure seems too high? Even Boeing only claims 21% fuel burn advantage 748i vs A380. SQ replaced 10 77W flights with 7 A380 flights
96 Post contains images ferpe : Thanks for the tip, I was a little bit unkind to the A380 as I did not lower the TOW to fly exactly 8000nm for the trip fuel (as it consumes 13t/hour
97 Cerecl : Thanks Ferpe I would like to understand how you arrived at the fuel burn figures because that for A380 still seems too high. 7x213 is significantly m
98 sweair : Does 360 seats in a 748i leave cargo revenue to be added? Also was it only the freighter that had 2.5t of weight taken out of it? If they get the 748
99 airlinebuilder : I believe more than anything else, the B747 line for passenger had its time already. The era for the VLA unfortunately is extremely limited that the A
100 koruman : I withdraw my earlier inaccurate comments about B747-8i passengers sales. It's obviously unfair to compare sales to Concorde. In fact, sales are much
101 Post contains links ferpe : I have a complete drag model which I then tune so that it fits the ACAP payload-range curve for each frame. The model is now so stable in the aero co
102 sweair : The goal for the 748 is 10000 pounds of weight taken out, 5000 achieved so far. An engine PIP of above 1.6% and some software updates to the FMC. Is t
103 andrewtang : B747-8 operators are still waiting for Boeing to solve the VNAV problem, aren't they?
104 Post contains links ferpe : This is correct according to this AW article which lists all these items and also defines when the VNAV will be solved (end 2013): http://www.aviatio
105 sweair : What do you think this "10000 pounds" does for the payload range? Or will it just be of use to up the efficiency? Less weight to carry on the same ro
106 Post contains images Antoniemey : In day-to-day matters? No, he doesn't. For Air Force One's function as a mobile command center in a doomsday scenario, yes. For Air Force One the USA
107 Viscount724 : The 880 and 990 almost bankrupted Convair and drove them out of the commercial business for good. That's certainly not the case for the 748.
108 airlinebuilder : on Ferpe's reply 104 re the link, makes me ask, why did the boeing 748i team not think of all those remedies from the very start? By the time they get
109 ferpe : Any empty weight decrease on a certified aircraft with a given MZFW and MTOW will increase either the maximum payload for shorter hops, ie the 748i c
110 tdscanuck : They did. But if you waited to incorporate every single good idea the engineers have, you'd never deliver an airplane. Engineering always generates i
111 Revelation : Effortlessly? Anything but, says I. See the AvWeek article linked in #103 to get the run down. More than a few shaky orders in the books, cracked web
112 kanban : Back in the 707/727 days we used to sneak into the Engineering Dept. and break all their pencil leads to slow them down so both manufacturing and ser
113 Cerecl : Thank you again Ferpe. Now I understand your estimation is for a 8000nm flight. Will the picture change if one looks at a 5000-6000nm flight?
114 ferpe : I have run the exact same payload (which might be debatable but it makes the result comparable to the previous one) over a 5500nm still air leg, here
115 Cerecl : Hmmm...Thank you Ferpe!
116 Post contains images SmittyOne : They will undoubtedly tout the replacement of the VC-25s as a 'green' initiative
117 airlinebuilder : with regard to all the exchanges of information and statistics share here, I would really like to somehow get an average take on how everyone in this
118 sweair : The most interesting comparison would be the 748 vs 744, do you have numbers about the 744 as well? I guess the 10 000 pounds will be perfect for the
119 travelhound : My take is the 748i has similar trip costs (Boeing claims the 748i's trip costs are 2% lower than the 744) to the 744. The advantage the 748I has ove
120 Stitch : Absolutely no chance, IMO.
121 7BOEING7 : Not even Boeing expected to outsell the A380 on the passenger side--so that question doesn't even need to be asked. However, assuming no economic imp
122 kanban : I think a longer window is needed say 10-15 years... there will be sufficient freighter sales to sustain the line.. and enough i sales to be interesti
123 airlinebuilder : from another topic forum here, PAL is looking at the 773ER, 777X and the 789s so there it goes, supposedly the last straw for another B748i sale gone
124 ushermittwoch : Weren't they the front runner for the mystery A380 order according to you just last week?
125 sweair : Why is LH almost alone flying the 748i, what is it that LH sees in this frame that no one else does? LH is a very profitable airline so it must have o
126 art : I think you're wrong on A380 numbers. Apart from additional sales to new customers over the years and top ups from existing customers, I see re-order
127 Stitch : LH operates their large widebodies in a three-class configuration (moving to four class), so they benefit from a larger 747 to serve as an interim st
128 Aquila3 : I tend to disagree, at least for the next few years. The current US President, signing the anti-ETS law as it was boasted here on a.net , have clearl
129 Post contains links RickNRoll : This is why the 748i is finished. Boeing Books Orders For 30 777 (by KarelXWB Dec 20 2012 in Civil Aviation)
130 7BOEING7 : Some of the 744's out there will be replaced by 777's some by 380s, but there's room in the middle. It won't be pretty but I think we'll be seeing 74
131 airlinebuilder : ushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2830 posts, RR: 20 Reply 124, posted Fri Dec 21 2012 20:58:34 your local time (13 hours 3 minutes 15 secs
132 Revelation : It seems few followed them with their love of A340-600 and even fewer are following them to 747-8i, especially as there are no signs of current fuel
133 Post contains images Daysleeper : I must be missing something really big here, as I've seen Airbus claim that the A351 is going to have a 25% fuel burn advantage over the 77W. So if t
134 art : Will it soon be time to start another thread entitled "Is It Goodbye To The A380?"?
135 Aquila3 : Feel free to do it, of course. It is the dream of many, here. However, it looks like the A380 has greater margins of improvement "if necessary". The
136 Cerecl : To be honest I have the same doubt. The difference between 77W and A380 in this estimation is much smaller than what SQ and EK were reporting. As I s
137 airlinebuilder : why must this topic be signficant? simply because, Personally it is not about A vs B, its more on how an iconic and technically reliable and beautiful
138 Cerecl : Boeing is a business, it would be stupid to cede a market to its competitor. Even if 747-8i does not pick up orders it restricts how much Airbus can
139 Stitch : Well consider who else flies A340-600s: TG - The A340-600 is the second-largest plane in their current fleet (in terms of capacity) and they do fly i
140 art : To answer my own question, no. I recall reading again and again that the most Airbus could hope for the A350-1000 would be for its CASM to match that
141 Viscount724 : Aren't all VS 744s 3-class - J, W (premium economy) and Y? Or are you ignoring premium Y?
142 Stitch : Yes, I was ignoring premium Y, however that would improve the case for the 747-8 with them (as it would the A380).
143 ferpe : My modelling only supplies fuel burn, this is an important part for the cost side but you are forgetting the even more important revenue side. Re the
144 RickNRoll : It's not just about fuel burn and CASM, the third major impetus for the A380 is landing slots. Politicians keep talking about Heathrow and Sydney, but
145 Post contains links cerecl : Let me start by thanking you for a detailed post and your effort in injecting some quantitative data into this discussion. I have not forgot the reve
146 airlinebuilder : Given the exchanges of information here, I would like to somehow find out on here if anyone can come up with a concrete number of a potential immediat
147 Post contains images ferpe : That was mid 2009, fuel was not 60% of the cost side back then, can someone remember the barrel price for 2009? I think it might have been half of wh
148 Post contains images cerecl : Jet fuel price reached a peak in mid 2008 and crashed early 2009, followed by some recovery throughout 2009. Given that SQ made the announcement in J
149 Stitch : As for an immediate order, I would say "none". Airlines that I believe could effectively make use of a 747-8 include TG and VS. And they just ordered
150 airlinebuilder : Japan Airlines, ANA, KLM, IBERIA, SAUDIA, SAA, AIR NEW ZEALAND, not entertaining the B748i (pardon me if these airlines were already discussed)
151 YYCspotter : Either that or a Boeing A190
152 Aquila3 : What about TK? Weren't they going to order some 748i? Or did they already?
153 Stitch : They had/have an RFP out with Airbus (A380-800) and Boeing (747-8), however they just ordered 15 777-300ERs and signed a lease for 7 more. As such, I
154 Aquila3 : I do . They are growing so FAST that very soon they would need them to compete with EK & co on level field. And I do not really remember why some
155 Stitch : The new Istanbul airport will need to be built, first. The 747-8 will be a tight fit in the current IST and the A380-800 even more so.
156 Post contains images cerecl : It will be a pity though if CI one day ceases to operate any passenger 747. CI's livery looks super sharp on it. Oh well, at least they will probably
157 airlinebuilder : In relation to my previous post about Boeing not taking the 748i on a sales pitch tour; Had Boeing done an international tour flying the 748i to major
158 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : A 748I Air Force One order? I highly doubt it... There should be zero chance of this taxpayer investment; when at all time high in national debt... To
159 airlinebuilder : it is funny I came across a video of the inagural 748i Lufthansa flight with interview on Lund, and she was quite optimistic about significant sales s
160 Stitch : LH 416's inaugural flight was 01 June 2012. The only order placed in 2012 was the 5 for Air China, which was recorded on 06 September 2012. Boeing ann
161 airlinebuilder : I really am hoping the sales for this beautiful aircraft picks up to a significant count wherein airlines can give it a second look and see its potent
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