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Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Grounded  
User currently offlineValorien From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 52 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 29492 times:

Qatar Airways said a 787 jet just handed over by Boeing developed a problem similar to one that forced a United aircraft to make an emergency landing with a faulty generator.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...with-same-fault-as-united-jet.html

66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5260 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 29409 times:

Oops, and Qatar is not happy at all:

quote:

“These problems are unacceptable because this aircraft has been flying for the last 14 months,” Al Baker said in an interview. “They have to get their act together very fast because we at Qatar Airways will not accept any more defects.”

and

“Two aircraft having the same problem -- the same major problem -- so quickly is a cause of concern,” Al Baker said, adding that Doha-based Qatar Air will ask Boeing to cover its losses. “Definitely we will demand compensation. We are not buying airplanes from them to put in a museum.”


He does have a point though.


User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 29010 times:

I like his style.

However, I saw the 787 land this morning. I thought they only had one, or maybe it was a 777. It's so hard to spot the difference.


User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1852 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 28935 times:

Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
He does have a point though.

He does, but I think it´s not necessary to make all of this public but to talk to boeing internally and deal with the problem.

EK and QR love to make a show about everything, United must have to say more about this and we don´t see or listen the CEO making a show every opportunity he has.

Anyway, let´s hope they work out the issue and solve the problem asap, otherwise this might have a big impact on the fleet of B787 flying around.


User currently offlineETinCaribe From Ethiopia, joined Dec 2009, 738 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 28862 times:

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
EK and QR love to make a show about everything, United must have to say more about this and we don´t see or listen the CEO making a show every opportunity he has.

I would say Al Baker is in a league of his own, no one gets close to him in ranting and publicly voicing his opinion (mostly negative in my view).

I guess "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" translates well into Arabic  


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13437 posts, RR: 100
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 28637 times:
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Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
EK and QR love to make a show about everything

QR and AI. EK is much mellower than the other two.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1852 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 28460 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):
QR and AI. EK is much mellower than the other two.

Well, they make quite a lot of noise with the delays of the A380 and with the A-350, I must said that they also praise the planes if they perform well, but I can´t remember last time QR CEO said something positive B787 delays and problems, NDIA delays... lately he has very few happy moments... hehehehehehe


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31243 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 28293 times:
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Quoting migair54 (Reply 6):
Well, (EK) make quite a lot of noise with the delays of the A380 and with the A-350, I must said that they also praise the planes if they perform well, but I can´t remember last time QR CEO said something positive B787 delays and problems, NDIA delays... lately he has very few happy moments... hehehehehehe

From the same article:

Quote:
Still, the performance of 787s delivered has been “quite adequate,” Al Baker said, and Qatar Air has seen no evidence of a separate fuel-leak problem that led the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration to order more regular inspections.

“Boeing makes fine airplanes,” he said. “We hope we will always work with them as long as they satisfy our requirements.”

 


User currently offlinehb88 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 817 posts, RR: 31
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 28254 times:

Quoting ETinCaribe (Reply 4):
I would say Al Baker is in a league of his own, no one gets close to him in ranting and publicly voicing his opinion (mostly negative in my view).

I have no problem with him ranting. If you were spending the cash that QR do on aircraft, would you not be upset at defects/delays? Remember any issue like this directly affects their scheduling and profitability.

My view, is good for him. Whether it's Airbus or Boeing on the sharp end of his stick, it focusses people attention.


User currently offlinemax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 28032 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
However, I saw the 787 land this morning. I thought they only had one, or maybe it was a 777. It's so hard to spot the difference.

Airfleets.net shows 3 in their fleet with the most recent one being delivered December 7th. I'm guessing that's the aircraft in question.

Shouldn't be too hard to spot the difference, just look for the chevrons on the engines, 4 wheel vs. 6 wheel MLG, round APU outlet vs. square on the 777, or the Dreamliner logo on the lower fuselage between the wing and tail.

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User currently offlinetan flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1919 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 27949 times:

While he may have a valid point, and a right to publicly voice his displeasure...that kind of rhetoric is usually for political comsumption of some sort or another.

Issues ,such as a faulty generator, are usually taken care of in a more private business manner.

Just wondering, who builds these Generators for Boeing? Presuming it is an outside vendor, Boeing DOES have an issue with them. Same as if Honda bought Alternators from Delco and had an issue..not exactly Honda's fault..the final responsibility for a manufacturing defect would be Delco ( in this example)


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 27948 times:

I don't know whether QR and EK "like to make a show" or whether the media like to build it up in order to sell their product. I suppose the alternative would be for Al Baker and Tim Clark to refuse to give any interviews. I wonder how that might be interpreted.

From the linked article;

"the performance of 787s delivered has been “quite adequate,”" and

“Boeing makes fine airplanes,”

Yes, Al Baker is understandably annoyed that an aircraft has had to be taken out of service (and that costs money) on top of upgrade program on the Airbus fleet caused by delivery delays, but he isn't threatening to cancel any orders at this stage.

I guess he can consider the airline lucky that the fault was discovered on a delivery flight and not during commercial operations.


User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1789 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 27806 times:

All I can say is that I'm glad QR didn't receive early models of the A380!!


Next Flights: LHR-IAH (744-BA); MSY-ATL (752-DL); ATL-LGA (320-DL); JFK-LHR (744-BA)
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3692 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 27350 times:

Quoting tan flyr (Reply 11):
Just wondering, who builds these Generators for Boeing?

This is a good question. And has the UAL plane returned?


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5142 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 27213 times:

So help me........how long does it take to change a generator ? Piddling stuff in my view unless there is there is something in the system that is failing to protect the generators.

User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 27166 times:

Quoting tan flyr (Reply 11):
Who builds these Generators for Boeing?

The generators are built by Hamilton Sundstrand. Comments in the thread about the UA generator failure seemed to indicate the real issue may be in one of the airplanes power panels rather than the generator itself. In both the UA diversion and now this one, the wait for parts, the use of a Boeing AOG team and the several days needed to get the airplane back into service all point to a more complex repair and parts which are not normally held in inventory by the operator. This would square up with a power panel issue better than a generator fault. The power panels are made by Zodiac Aerospace.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 26935 times:

Quoting tan flyr (Reply 11):
Just wondering, who builds these Generators for Boeing?

Hamilton Sundstrand (now UTC Aerospace Systems):
http://www.hamiltonsundstrand.com/St...%20Systems_Slip%20sheet%202011.pdf

Quoting tan flyr (Reply 11):
Presuming it is an outside vendor, Boeing DOES have an issue with them.

That assumes that the reason the generator failed is a problem with the manufacture of the generator...that may or may not be true. The power feeders are almost certainly someone else (Labinal?), I don't know who does the generator control units, the power panels are Thales, etc., etc. Just because a component died doesn't mean the guys who built that component are the ones who killed it.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 14):
And has the UAL plane returned?

Yes.

Tom.


User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1852 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 26850 times:

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 13):
All I can say is that I'm glad QR didn't receive early models of the A380!!

For us it could have been good, soooo many hours of talking and discussing.... Bad for Airbus... heheheheheheh.....

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 15):
So help me........how long does it take to change a generator ? Piddling stuff in my view unless there is there is something in the system that is failing to protect the generators.

They have to find out if it´s the generator or some snag with the system, changing a generator doesn´t take much time.


User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 26784 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 17):
the power panels are Thales

Hmmm... Not sure why I was thinking Zodiac. Perhaps they make some of the internals. At any rate, I will defer to you on this one, Tom.


User currently offlinecapri From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 452 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 24980 times:

the difference between US airlines and the rest is that they get a huge discount other airlines don't, this is why US airlines don't complain much publicly about boeing mishaps

User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 24614 times:

Quoting CM (Reply 19):
Hmmm... Not sure why I was thinking Zodiac. Perhaps they make some of the internals.

Zodiac does the contactors and switchgear inside the panels. So it's a Thales/Zodiac joint thing. I may have that reversed though...it might be Zodiac's panel with Thales's bits inside. Either way, they're both involved.

Quoting capri (Reply 20):
the difference between US airlines and the rest is that they get a huge discount other airlines don't

No, they don't. That hasn't been true since the 90's.

Tom.


User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1852 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 23836 times:

Quoting capri (Reply 19):
the difference between US airlines and the rest is that they get a huge discount other airlines don't, this is why US airlines don't complain much publicly about boeing mishaps

Not true, all the airlines bargain the prices of the planes and the discounts depends on many many factors, but i´m sure QR got a good price for the B787 and not much more expensive than United.

I´m sure they do complain, but not in the media, the same compensation QR will have United can get without making so much noise and talking directly with Boeing, they are all business men and they all talk the same language, and I´m pretty sure you can even get more if you do under the table, without messing up and pissing off people than doing the show....


User currently offlineandrew50 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 133 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 21431 times:
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If I am not mistaken United must still be having some issues with their 787's. UA 1430 to LAX was replaced by a T7 yesterday, and UA 1433 to SFO was also replaced by a T7 on Tuesday evening, that flight was running over 2 hours late.

User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1831 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 21183 times:

UAs small fleet of three leave no spare capacity, they will take 2 more before 1 January, a little more wiggle room. ANAs 16 fleet seems to do ok, but they have a head start on UA..

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12173 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 20262 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 2):
However, I saw the 787 land this morning. I thought they only had one, or maybe it was a 777. It's so hard to spot the difference.
Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
quote:

“These problems are unacceptable because this aircraft has been flying for the last 14 months,” Al Baker said in an interview. “They have to get their act together very fast because we at Qatar Airways will not accept any more defects.”

and

“Two aircraft having the same problem -- the same major problem -- so quickly is a cause of concern,” Al Baker said, adding that Doha-based Qatar Air will ask Boeing to cover its losses. “Definitely we will demand compensation. We are not buying airplanes from them to put in a museum.”
Quoting migair54 (Reply 6):
but I can´t remember last time QR CEO said something positive B787 delays and problems, NDIA delays...
Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
From the same article:

Quote:Still, the performance of 787s delivered has been “quite adequate,” Al Baker said, and Qatar Air has seen no evidence of a separate fuel-leak problem that led the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration to order more regular inspections.

“Boeing makes fine airplanes,” he said. “We hope we will always work with them as long as they satisfy our requirements.”

Correct.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 16):
the power panels are Thales

Isn't that the same company that made the faulty pitiot tubes for the A-330/-340?


25 UALWN : The pitot tubes were not faulty: they were within specs. The specs, however, were not stringent enough.
26 maxter : This means squat to the customer. The ultimate responsibility lies with Boeing. Megaphone diplomacy is never good for either party though... with tha
27 seabosdca : All three are currently scheduled to be in service tomorrow.
28 RickNRoll : Reading elsewhere that these panels are the same one that caused ZA0002 grief. Not saying there is a fire danger, just that these seem to be critical
29 aklrno : There was an interesting logical leap here. First it was a bad generator, then someone said maybe it was a switch panel fault, and someone jumped back
30 Dan23 : Was the fire issue with ZA002 not software or control system based? As part of the changes made, to rectify that issue, were there also design change
31 seabosdca : No, it was a short caused by a metal tool (wrench?) left in the panel.
32 kanban : Don't believe the culprit was ever identified... other than metallic FOD...more likely a nut or washer that was vaporized in the arching. with all th
33 JohnClipper : Interesting...must be A7-BCA. I flew A7-BCB yesterday from DOH to DXB and A7-BCL was used on an earlier DXB run. A7-BCA was parked at maintenance area
34 RickNRoll : Googling tells me it was attributed to be 'most likely' a washer that was destroyed by arcing. I am sure someone else has a better answer. So not a d
35 Post contains links tdscanuck : The answer to the above is "Yes." Aviation issues almost never have only one cause. Read the posts by CM on this thread for more details: United 787
36 DocLightning : I didn't suppose Mr. AB would be very happy about it at all. He's world-famous for being unhappy most of the time. I do. It's very unprofessional. He
37 7BOEING7 : I agree totally. Having been involved with the "birth" of many new models, I always felt I would get in line a year or two down the line.
38 TWA772LR : Like it or not, you have to agree the man is a genius when it come to putting pressure on companies. This is a perfect example.
39 DocLightning : I have seen no evidence to suggest that his ranting in any way improves matters.
40 Post contains links and images Braybuddy : How long before someone dubs a clip of "Downfall?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lui0-4IW64 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuG1SVLvM6Q http://www.y
41 QatarA340 : I just flew A7-BCB yesterday so its not that.
42 QatarA340 : We were on the same flight! Which seat were u sitting at?
43 JohnClipper : Was on QR 106 - 1K filler filler
44 B777LRF : +1. As the old saying goes: "Never buy the A model of anything". The original 747 had engines that were ... problematic. Same on the L-1011. The Q400
45 tdscanuck : Well, his ranting managed to get Boeing to do their first commercial flying demonstration at an airshow in decades...whether that "improves matters"
46 JHCRJ700 : Not really if your unsure, the landing gear, cockpit section, or simply the lights are easy ways to tell the differences.
47 Revelation : Diplomacy happens when two parties are on equal footing. Here we have one party that pays another, something I think is quite different. I know my co
48 RickNRoll : Is the real issue that the new technology power used in the 787, with a lot of high voltage DC, is going to need more attention to control and managem
49 seabosdca : He gets what he wants in the very short term, but that kind of behavior compromises relationships. Given the way he treats Boeing (and Airbus) manage
50 ordwaw : It is a hypothetical situation, but here is my take, to address your point ... The vendor's approach would most likely be to address the needs of who
51 maxter : Ahhhh, I see the basis of my comment failed to hit the mark... Other than that the above is a masterclass in the bleeding obvious.
52 Post contains links UALWN : According to Jon Ostrower at the WSJ, Boeing is investigating the electrical issues some 787s are having. In the last week or so 4 787s (two QR and tw
53 DocLightning : Good point, although in that specific case, I suspect they let it just happen because some mid-level manager with him agreed to it just to get him to
54 oldeuropean : QR has grounded 3 787s.
55 flood : Only A7-BCA has been grounded. Another Qatar bird was affected, but it hasn't been delivered yet. One of their 787s is currently over Germany en rout
56 JohnClipper : Hopefully not grounded as I am booked on one to depart in 3 hrs from DXB to DOH.
57 ordwaw : You are OK ... QTR116, A7-BCA will be landing at DXB in 23 minutes ... Have a safe trip.
58 Post contains images flood : Indeed, apparently all fixed up and on her first day of revenue service
59 QatarA340 : Your on my flight as well! :P
60 Post contains links Revelation : http://tinyurl.com/bsylgrr should take you there. I wouldn't call four sets of electrical failures (three in service, one pre-delivery) a rash of prob
61 Stitch : One would hope the certifying authorities would not have found such "things" like this issue acceptable.
62 7BOEING7 : Having been in the business--nothing like this would ever be accepted. QTR ZA462 (62) diverted on its B-1--I'm guessing that was due to the "electric
63 Revelation : We've been told that the certifying authorities would find the UA/MSY situation totally acceptable, the airplane lost a generator, the system rebalan
64 Post contains links blrsea : The seattle times article on the 2nd UA 787 requiring electrical panel change: 2nd United 787 grounded with electrical trouble From the article above.
65 mbm3 : My father, who was on several design teams for Boeing in the 60s and 70s, simply smiles when he sees all of the press about the 787 issues given what
66 tdscanuck : Given the size of the fleet and the tight cluster of timing it's at least suspicious, but I'm sure Boeing, the FAA, EASA, the airlines, and the vendo
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