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CVG Releases A New Master Plan & Gov. Opinions  
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7192 posts, RR: 17
Posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4204 times:

According to the news radio today, the governors of Ohio and Kentucky were calling DL's service at CVG a "disservice to the community" and are calling on local governments and companies to offer incentives to attract more international service to CVG. The governors apparently were citing the slow recovery of the Tri-state area as partially part of the downsizing of the CVG hub. I read something that my dad showed me recently citing that some of his customers in the tri-state are not hiring new management positions simply because at this point, it's cheaper to hire in cities like Indianapolis and Columbus simply because of the quality of the service offered.

I know this has been discussed to wits end, but Cincinnati is quite a unique city and has unique needs. Someone even suggested subsidizing Asian service to CVG by JL or NH, especially for Toyota's presence in the tri-state.

→ A master-plan for the next 20 years has been released as well by the Kenton County Airport Board. Anyone in the tristate is welcome to attend a forum about the master plan for CVG's future. The goal is to pretty much remake CVG's facilities in order to make it a profitable and successful airport.

Part of this master plan includes a new rental car facility and better cargo facilities.


http://www.kypost.com/dpps/news/regi...opinion-on-its-master-plan_8083238

http://www.cvgairport.com/master-plan/


Thoughts?

PHX787


One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7521 posts, RR: 28
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4068 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
According to the news radio today, the governors of Ohio and Kentucky were calling DL's service at CVG a "disservice to the community" and are calling on local governments and companies to offer incentives to attract more international service to CVG. The governors apparently were citing the slow recovery of the Tri-state area as partially part of the downsizing of the CVG hub. I read something that my dad showed me recently citing that some of his customers in the tri-state are not hiring new management positions simply because at this point, it's cheaper to hire in cities like Indianapolis and Columbus simply because of the quality of the service offered.

Politicians are going to say that because thats what the voters want to hear. They do not understand the economic realities of the US Airline industry today. All they know is that the number of departures at CVG is down significantly over previous years. Government officials have no right to critize how a business operates, when the public sector can't agree upon anything or pass a balanced budget.

The economic recovery and ability to hire/fill positions has very little to do with the quality of air service. There are at least 5-10 other factors that come well before the amount of air service.

DTW has excellent air service, however that matter very little in attracting most companies or people to the region. It is very difficult to get people who are not from Michigan to relocate to the state. GM, Ford, Chrysler had tons of open positions in the professional ranks but find it very difficult to recruit and lure talent from outside of the Midwest. It has nothing to do with air service and everything do with where people want to live. The general trend is that the US is becoming much more urban and there is a continued migration toward the the major cities on the coast (Chicago, Denver, Dallas being about the only exceptions).

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
I know this has been discussed to wits end, but Cincinnati is quite a unique city and has unique needs. Someone even suggested subsidizing Asian service to CVG by JL or NH, especially for Toyota's presence in the tri-state.

Every city is unique and thinks its unique. Every city has some sort of economic ties to international destinations. The business case has to make sense though. Simply because Toyota has a presense in the Ohio Valley does not necessarily mean there is sufficient demand for service to Asia. Toyota has many of its manufacturing plants in Kentucky, West Virginia, Ohio, but also has a large engineering/technical center in Michigan plus a facilities on the West Coast. Most of the automotive ties to Japan are to the NGO region, not NRT. Hence why DL (and NW) flies DTW-NGO. There is no feasible way that this could exist at CVG without siginficant connecting traffic or through good money after bad.

Same reason you don't see nonstops on routes like:
DTW-Cologne, Germany CGM (home of Ford Europe)
DTW-Turin, Italy TRN (home of Fiat)

However they are well-connected with one-stop service. The duration and requirement of a connection becomes much less important when on such a long journey.


User currently offlineairlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4045 times:

It's a beautiful airport with modern, spacious, and clean facilities - especially now that Terminal 2 has been closed and the Concourse A renovation completed. The runway setup is efficient. So I'm not sure how exactly they plan to remake the airport. It's a shame to see this airport so severely under-utilized. The glory days of Delta aren't coming back, but I would love to see other airlines add a few more flights here and there (mainline, not RJ's). B6, WN, NK, or F9 would be awesome to see. JL or NH is probably a long shot. Why does CVG seem unable to attract more service? We always hear a lot of talk by airport management about trying to change this, but nothing ever seems to change!

User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1899 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4003 times:

I reviewed the executive summary they posted and I can only say that I hope they filed this master plan for regulatory purposes only, because otherwise I think it's ridiculous. So they're saying they want to demolish Concourse B- one the most top-notch terminal facilities in the country- and build an entirely new concourse attached to Concourse A? Easily one of the most idiotic proposals, especially considering that DL owns Concourse B and they're obligated to continue paying the airport land usage fees for well into the future.

Some of the proposals I agree with:
-Light rail to downtown Cincy
-Consolidated rental car offices
-Resized parking garage

The last thing they need to be doing though is committing to any big-spending projects that will require them to raise fees, thus far CVG has done alright with keeping it's fees reasonable even with DL cutbacks.

All this being said, I'm unsure how airport master plans usually pan out. From what I've seen, they're usually not followed to a "T" by most airports, I can only hope it's the same for CVG.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
the governors of Ohio and Kentucky were calling DL's service at CVG a "disservice to the community"

Bleh...just lip-service to a community that doesn't understand how good they still have it even with the cutbacks. CVG still has the most flights to the most destinations of any airport in the tri-state area, with the exception of CLE I think, as well as daily non-stop service to Europe. The amount of air service at CVG is not the problem, however I would agree that getting a low-fare carrier is critical to increasing local traffic.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
and are calling on local governments and companies to offer incentives to attract more international service to CVG.

Again, just more hot air...if they're really concerned then why don't they actually step up and do something? I agree that if we want more air service, incentives will have to be offered, but it's not like either Kasich or Beshear are doing anything about that. Steve Arlinghaus, head of the KCAB, summed it up well in basically saying that they're willing to sit down with the governors anytime, but it's not like they've ever come acalling except to blow some hot air like they did today.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
The governors apparently were citing the slow recovery of the Tri-state area as partially part of the downsizing of the CVG hub.

A tired an false excuse, especially considering that Cincinnati is ranked at number 12 in the US out 76 for economic recovery.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
I read something that my dad showed me recently citing that some of his customers in the tri-state are not hiring new management positions simply because at this point, it's cheaper to hire in cities like Indianapolis and Columbus simply because of the quality of the service offered.

I can't see how that would make any sense especially considering the quality of service offered at CVG (as far as # of destinations served and # flights) is higher than either of those two cities. Otherwise, why would the companies here be doubling their workforces and hiring more employees?

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):

I know this has been discussed to wits end, but Cincinnati is quite a unique city and has unique needs. Someone even suggested subsidizing Asian service to CVG by JL or NH, especially for Toyota's presence in the tri-state.

I don't think Toyota generates any sizable demand to Japan that would warrant even a subsidized non-stop flight. I think Cincinnati's international travel needs are being satisfied for the most part, the only other feasible addition I could see is subsidized 757 service to LHR in addition to CDG, apparently there's some decently strong demand from Cincinnati to London.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7192 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3980 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 3):
-Light rail to downtown Cincy

I don't know how that's going to be profitable. It sounds like 14 or 15 miles of railway to nowhere. How many stations would there be on this route

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 3):
-Consolidated rental car offices
-Resized parking garage

I like this idea as well; I heard that the facilities are going to be in one large garage building.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 3):
. So they're saying they want to demolish Concourse B- one the most top-notch terminal facilities in the country- and build an entirely new concourse attached to Concourse A? Easily one of the most idiotic proposals,

I don't quite understand that either but I think they're thinking about building one large wing to handle the most amount of flights economically possible.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineaf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2654 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3836 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):

The light rail would most likely not be profitable, but if done right and built along a high demand corridor would be worth the cost.



It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22718 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3616 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1):
Most of the automotive ties to Japan are to the NGO region, not NRT.

For CVG, that's true since Cincinnati is basically a Toyota town. But more globally, it's not. Honda's head office is in Tokyo and Nissan's is in Yokohama.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7495 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3605 times:

I don't know what they hope to accomplish. There really aren't any cities that CVG can support over the water on its own accord.

Asia is totally out. No local market.

I suppose AA could fly a daily 757 to LHR, but that's pushing it.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5365 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 3365 times:

With passengers and operations down 75% over four years and still dropping, this plan calls for a half a billion in new construction. Only governments think this way.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1899 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3131 times:

Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 2):
Why does CVG seem unable to attract more service?

Because, simply put, CVG has a bad reputation among low-fare airlines. Over the years we've had a handful of them attempt service to Cincinnati, but every time they entered, DL matched their fares and flyers chose DL over the competition...just bad consumer decisions. That being said, I think the situation is different now and that the community would very enthusiastically support LFC service, but because of CVG's bad rep, I think the local governments are going to have to give them extra motivation (read $$ incentives) to enter the market.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
I don't know how that's going to be profitable. It sounds like 14 or 15 miles of railway to nowhere. How many stations would there be on this route

Certainly it wouldn't be directly profitable, but if fares come down at CVG and more people start flying out of the airport, having this connection would greatly benefit the region and it's air service connections.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
I don't quite understand that either but I think they're thinking about building one large wing to handle the most amount of flights economically possible.

I just don't get it though, that's gonna cost big bucks...and why do that when DL is going to be paying them anyway? Just mothball it for further expansion if traffic really drops off that much.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 8):
With passengers and operations down 75% over four years and still dropping, this plan calls for a half a billion in new construction. Only governments think this way.

Exactly, which is why I can only hope that this master plan is more a matter of semantics for regulatory purposes than a concrete blueprint for the future....


User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1542 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3075 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 9):
Certainly it wouldn't be directly profitable, but if fares come down at CVG and more people start flying out of the airport, having this connection would greatly benefit the region and it's air service connections.

It would definitely have to be subsidized at first, but it would induce some demand over time. Similar to the DC Metro serving DCA and eventually IAD, the line wouldn't only serve airport traffic, though it would be a nice baseline to underwrite the route. For getting rail of any kind in the Cincy area, a line out to CVG is as good a plan as any for a starter route.

At the risk of piling on but just to make the point, any talk of n/s to Asia or major facility construction in that $500 range is just ridiculous. There was talk of Asia back in the early 2000s, and if they couldn't do it then with all the connectivity flows still around, zero chance it would happen now. CDG is one thing, but Asia is quite another - the subsidies required to keep that around long-term and season-to-season would be massive.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22718 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2521 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 9):
Certainly it wouldn't be directly profitable, but if fares come down at CVG and more people start flying out of the airport, having this connection would greatly benefit the region and it's air service connections.

Where would it run that any number of air service users live? It's not like downtown Cincinnati has a tremendous number of residents. It would pick up some Kentucky folks by happenstance, but they are likely already using CVG anyway.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1899 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2280 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
Where would it run that any number of air service users live? It's not like downtown Cincinnati has a tremendous number of residents.

It would just be downtown Cincinnati per se, but to better attract people from the northern Cincinnati suburbs, with the long-term goal of perhaps connecting with any future light rail/public transit that may directly serve those areas.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22718 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2268 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 12):
It would just be downtown Cincinnati per se, but to better attract people from the northern Cincinnati suburbs,

Unless those folks have a fear of driving in Kentucky, what would be attractive about finding parking in downtown Cincinnati and taking the light rail versus just driving all the way to CVG?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1899 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2244 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):
Unless those folks have a fear of driving in Kentucky,

You would be surprised at the mentality of some Cincinnatians   

Joking aside though, for a good number of those people, DAY is really only marginally farther than CVG.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):
what would be attractive about finding parking in downtown Cincinnati and taking the light rail

Parking would be something that would need to be addressed, but essentially if you only need to be dropped off or go as far as downtown to get to CVG, that would be a major attraction for a lot of those people IMO.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7192 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2213 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 14):
You would be surprised at the mentality of some Cincinnatians

Yeah really, but maybe to get away from the Brent Spence Bridge

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 14):
Joking aside though, for a good number of those people, DAY is really only marginally farther than CVG.

Especially up north in the growing areas around West Chester

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 3):
Bleh...just lip-service

I thought about this for a while, and yeah, sure it's lip service, but realize that the govs have a lot of say of what goes on, infrastructure and policy wise. If they want more service to CVG however, they're going to have to actually try to offer incentives, which last I heard from some insiders, that may happen soon. In particular, some companies are conversing with the State of Ohio commerce department to try to get US to expand here, in particular to PHX and with additional flights to CLT and DCA. Also, I heard that some banks, like 5/3 and PNC are going to try to attract service from AS to SEA, under endorsement from the same commerce department. I don't know the specs but all I know is that monetary allocations such as this are being prepared.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2187 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Cincinnati is quite a unique city and has unique needs.

No. It's an average mid-West city with usual/average needs for a city its size, which basically means some nonstop service to most major US cities, and minor int'l links to YYZ (and perhaps a few other Cdn cities), CUN and maybe NAS. Nothing more. TA is a stretch. TP is dreaming.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1):
Every city is unique and thinks its unique. Every city has some sort of economic ties to international destinations. The business case has to make sense though. Simply because Toyota has a presense in the Ohio Valley does not necessarily mean there is sufficient demand for service to Asia.

Exactly.

The problem here is that city fathers THINK CVG is unique and they wistfully recall the glory days of DL's hub high-water mark.

Maybe the best solution would be a downsize of CVG but a new high speed rail link to DTW or really any larger nearby airport. But that goes against the "virile power" of your own growing airport which many city fathers everywhere seem to swim in.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1899 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2174 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 15):
I don't know the specs but all I know is that monetary allocations such as this are being prepared.

I would welcome this, but I'll believe it when I see it. I say "lip service" because they always say the same thing when they visit this area (playing to the populist issue of the locale), and NOTHING happens...I'll respect them more once they actually do something.


User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1300 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2127 times:

Instead of faffing about trying to get more SLF through the doors of this white elephant, perhaps the politicians would be better served by subsidising proper ramp facilities for it's biggest customer?

I know they've just done an extension, but it's already too small. And then there's the not insignificant matter of incredibly poor lighting on large parts of the ramp where their biggest customer handles upwards of 50 flights every night, the poor to non-existent taxiway markings on their ramp, and a ramp lay-out that does nothing to further an efficient and safe operation.

But I suppose there's not many votes to be had in packages, better to ignore realities and build more castles in the sky.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3125 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2127 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 15):
I heard that some banks, like 5/3 and PNC are going to try to attract service from AS to SEA, under endorsement from the same commerce department. I don't know the specs but all I know is that monetary allocations such as this are being prepared.

As far as I know PNC hasn't even done this at PIT, so I'd be shocked if they do this in CVG.



FLYi
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7192 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2115 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 18):
Instead of faffing about trying to get more SLF through the doors of this white elephant, perhaps the politicians would be better served by subsidising proper ramp facilities for it's biggest customer?

That sounds like a good idea, but what about the space? it's a huge airport, 2 empty terminals and an empty concourse. The Cargo airlines are making good use of it, but the service at the airport is becoming more and more constricted. Finding flights back home from the western US are becoming more and more stressful for people with busy lives.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 19):
As far as I know PNC hasn't even done this at PIT, so I'd be shocked if they do this in CVG.

Maybe it's a different bank, I'll have to go back to my source....

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 17):
I would welcome this, but I'll believe it when I see it. I say "lip service" because they always say the same thing when they visit this area (playing to the populist issue of the locale), and NOTHING happens...I'll respect them more once they actually do something.

Well lets hope they actually do this....maybe letter writing campaigns or petitions...



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1899 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2079 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 16):
No. It's an average mid-West city with usual/average needs for a city its size

Average does not equal not unique. I'm from the area, love the city and am very familiar with the local economy, but I'm realistic and have no illusions like some do in many cities that all of their airports deserve ORD-levels of air service. That being said, each city IS different, with different demographics and different demands. There's a reason why Raleigh has non-stop service to LHR while CLE does not, there's a reason why PIT has daily non-stop service to the West Coast while CMH and IND don't...it doesn't make either one particularly superior, they're just different.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 16):
which basically means some nonstop service to most major US cities, and minor int'l links to YYZ (and perhaps a few other Cdn cities), CUN and maybe NAS. Nothing more.

Not always the case as I pointed out above.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 16):
Maybe the best solution would be a downsize of CVG but a new high speed rail link to DTW or really any larger nearby airport. But that goes against the "virile power" of your own growing airport which many city fathers everywhere seem to swim in.

Not really, it's more a question of what the market wants....who would want to take a 2-3 hour train ride to go and spend another 2-3 hours or more flying? Apparently no one as there's been no consumer demand to do it.


User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2052 times:

Oh and back in the day when DL had a bunch of flights that they charged extortionary rates to actually fly on that wasn't a disservice to the community? Whatever...can't take anything politicians say seriously.

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7192 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1973 times:

Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 22):
Oh and back in the day when DL had a bunch of flights that they charged extortionary rates to actually fly on that wasn't a disservice to the community? Whatever...can't take anything politicians say seriously.

It indeed was and those politicians from back then were trying to think of ways to get that changed....of course DL did give gratuitous discounts to the businesses using the service purportedly which is why that necessarily didn't change.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
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