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Airbus Considers 235 Seat A321 NEO  
User currently offlinelostsound From Canada, joined May 2012, 223 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 25979 times:

Quote:
Airbus is examining a possible A321 fuselage modification which would aim to increase passenger capacity of the A321neo.

The modification would potentially take the A321neo to 235 seats.

Exit limitations mean the A321 is certificated, under European regulations, to transport a maximum of 220 passengers.

But Airbus executive vice-president for programmes Tom Williams says a higher-capacity version is "one of the things we're studying".

Full Article Below:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-lift-a321neo-to-235-seats-380226/

Though there has been no information on which airline was inquiring about this modification, the article seems to think AirAsia is a likely candidate.

Which airlines do you think would be interested? I'd assume those who enjoy their 757s would be intrigued, though the extra capacity probably further limits the range.

Do you think there is enough demand?


"Our hands are full, our lives are not"
84 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30883 posts, RR: 86
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 26021 times:
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Quoting lostsound (Thread starter):
Which airlines do you think would be interested?

I would imagine any LCC that operates the A321-200 in a single-class configuration. Since they already need 5 cabin crew, the extra 15 seats would incur no additional staff costs.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9002 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 25851 times:

Quoting lostsound (Thread starter):

Sounds like they looking at adding the A320 over wing escape slide



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User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 25850 times:

This is interesting.

Obviously this version would have shorter range than the other NEO's so i wonder if this would be offered in addition to the current 220 seat version or if this would form the new A321 standard with 235 seats.
The link to the article is down so i cant see if it clarifies this.


User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1694 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 25846 times:

Well obviously is an airline that operates in one class layout and if Airbus is considering is because they must be considering to order a big bunch of them.

Lately i have been reading about Lion Air placing a big airbus order for NEO, can this be?. 235 pax in a single aisle plane must be a nice advantage for an airline that is going to be soon having problems with very busy airports like CGK.

Air Asia for the same reason than Lion Air, what about Indigo?? I think they can do also a good use of this birds.

This are three airlines that can do very nicely with this option.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30883 posts, RR: 86
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 25818 times:
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Quoting clydenairways (Reply 3):
Obviously this version would have shorter range than the other NEO's so i wonder if this would be offered in addition to the current 220 seat version or if this would form the new A321 standard with 235 seats.

It's an optional configuration that includes the addition of two over-wing exits with over-wing escape slides.


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3734 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 25742 times:

I could also see NK interested in this modification, even though they have sold most of their original A321s. Right now, NK packs all of their A32x with the maximum amount of seats allowed by FAA regulations, and going from 178 to 235 seats would be great for certain NK routes.

[Edited 2012-12-14 07:48:03]


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User currently offlineby738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2293 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 25716 times:

isnt it the range that is the issue, not capacity ?

User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3734 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 25668 times:

Quoting by738 (Reply 7):

isnt it the range that is the issue, not capacity ?

The A321NEO solves most of the original A321 range issues, many of which were already solved by performance improvement packages and upgraded engines on the original A321.

The extra capacity is likely being done with ULCCs in mind, most of which care more about high density than long range.

[Edited 2012-12-14 07:52:00]


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User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30883 posts, RR: 86
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 25601 times:
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Quoting by738 (Reply 7):
isnt it the range that is the issue, not capacity?

LCC operators with high-density configurations generally run shorter stage-lengths to maximize aircraft utilization (more flights per operating day).


User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1694 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 25560 times:

Quoting by738 (Reply 7):
isnt it the range that is the issue, not capacity ?

More pax less range, more range less pax, it´s an easy equation, but i´m sure the airline is asking for more pax is because they make the field study and they understood they need pax and no range, maybe for an airline like US Airways range is more important to do trancon flights but for example Lion Air current network range is not an issue.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7569 posts, RR: 43
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 24687 times:

Wouldn't this create a kind of gap between the A320NEO and the A321NEO in terms of passenger capacity?

I guess the specific questions are (i) how many Airbus customers are in need of new, more efficient narrowbodies that can seat 180-210 passengers; and (ii) how inefficient would it be for those carriers to use a longer and heavier A321NEO, compared to what they had in mind when the NEO program was launched?



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User currently offlinelostsound From Canada, joined May 2012, 223 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 24606 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 11):

Airbus is considering this as an option. The normal A321 arrangement would still be offered as usual, but also they would be offering this extra capacity version.



"Our hands are full, our lives are not"
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2602 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 24066 times:

The A321 keeps gaining capabilities... it is IMO the aircraft that will gain the most from the NEO and will become increasingly popular.

European holiday operators like Monarch will surely love this option and not mind any range limitations (which the NEO removes anyway). And basically anyone flying 1-class high-density short routes. Will the seat pitch be nice? No. Will boarding and deplaning take forever? Yes. But for holiday carriers that is less of an issue.


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3967 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 23637 times:
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Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 6):
going from 178 to 235 seats would be great for certain NK routes.

Don't forget it would take an extra flight attendant though. On the other hand, the ratio of passengers-to-flight-attendant would go up, so the cost of the extra attendant may be more than made up by the extra passengers, provided the load factor and yield remain the same, of course.



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User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7569 posts, RR: 43
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 23337 times:

Quoting lostsound (Reply 12):
Airbus is considering this as an option. The normal A321 arrangement would still be offered as usual, but also they would be offering this extra capacity version.

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. I guess there would be an A321NEO and an A321NEO-lengthened. Why not call it A322NEO?



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User currently offlinelostsound From Canada, joined May 2012, 223 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 23161 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 15):
Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. I guess there would be an A321NEO and an A321NEO-lengthened. Why not call it A322NEO?

Because it's not a lengthen. They are just adding overwing exits and moving the ones behind the wings further back.  
It is really just a high-density A321.



"Our hands are full, our lives are not"
User currently offlineba319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8527 posts, RR: 54
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 22670 times:
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I could see this being of use to BA for domestics and certain european routes, especially since it looks like the 788's won't be used to replace the shorthaul 767 fleet, at least not at this stage.


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User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12981 posts, RR: 100
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 22384 times:
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Quoting r2rho (Reply 13):

The A321 keeps gaining capabilities... it is IMO the aircraft that will gain the most from the NEO and will become increasingly popular.

Agreed. It will receive MTOW increases and the airline will have the choice of carrying fuel or payload. Their call.


Go for it. At a minimum it will improve resale.

Lightsaber



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User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1326 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 21862 times:

All this talk about range is overblown, in my opinion. The airlines this version is targeted at are generally speaking operating at average sector lengths of around 2 hours, with the maximum being 5-6 hours. It is quite possible this aircraft will be perfectly able to lift a full pax load up to 6 hours, so what's the problem?

http://i45.tinypic.com/2b1ipt.png

http://i46.tinypic.com/10n9he1.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/91jq5f.jpg

Note:
The above range charts are for a 185 seat A321NEO, so does not provide a realistic picture of the 235 seat version, but it does provide a hint, namely that range won't be an issue.



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User currently offlineakelley728 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2191 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 21855 times:

Quoting lostsound (Reply 12):
Airbus is considering this as an option. The normal A321 arrangement would still be offered as usual, but also they would be offering this extra capacity version.

I wonder if this "option" becomes the standard? There would be a minimal weight gain from the additional exits and new escape slide. Operators would have the flexibility to pack in as many people (up to 235) as they want. It's like the 737-900 situation. An additional door was added so the 737-900 could hold more people. The new 737-900ER became the new standard and the original 737-900 was dropped.


User currently offlinestarrymarkb From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2011, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 21853 times:

I presume they'll use an A320 overwing fuselage section? (much like the High Density A319)

User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1694 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 21763 times:

Quoting lostsound (Reply 16):
Because it's not a lengthen. They are just adding overwing exits and moving the ones behind the wings further back.  
It is really just a high-density A321.

The A350 also has a option for high density with an extra door, so it´s something that Airbus already has in mind.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 15):
Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. I guess there would be an A321NEO and an A321NEO-lengthened. Why not call it A322NEO?
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 14):
Don't forget it would take an extra flight attendant though. On the other hand, the ratio of passengers-to-flight-attendant would go up, so the cost of the extra attendant may be more than made up by the extra passengers, provided the load factor and yield remain the same, of course.

True, but a B737-800 with 189 seats needs 4 F/A, so getting 46 more seat and only 1 more cabin crew is great.

I think this version will be a big success if they can also give a little bit of extra range with the sharklets and few more improvements, also with the composite materials the Basic Empty weight will go down and that means more payload uplift and/or fuel.


User currently offlinecaaardiff From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 21280 times:

The current A321 has 8 exits, so does the 757-200.
Granted R/L2 aren't the same size as R/L/1 like they are on the 757-200. Does the door size make a difference?
If not, can someone explain why 2 more wing exits are needed, if the 757 didn't have them?

Edit:
I've googled some images of 757's and some show 2 overwing exits and some don't.
The comparison i'm working against is Thomson/Britannia 757's were all 235 config, with no overwing exits.

[Edited 2012-12-14 13:38:54]

User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9594 posts, RR: 52
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 21109 times:

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 20):
I wonder if this "option" becomes the standard? There would be a minimal weight gain from the additional exits and new escape slide.

It is not minimal weight. It’s slides, door actuation, and door maintenance. That’s quite a bit of weight to be carrying around over a fuselage plug or better yet no doors at all.

Most airlines plugged the extra door on the 900ER. The extra weight and maintenance is not something the airlines want to have to do unless they are required to. Unless we have another Manchester style narrowbody fire, I don’t see there being any motivation in the airlines to add doors beyond the minimum required by the regulatory authority.



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25 YVRLTN : Like U2's A319's with 156 seats. Obvious targets would have to be U2, AB, W6 and DY in Europe along with some smaller airlines like ZB, TOM, TCX. FR
26 Zkpilot : Shouldn't they just called it an A322 then?
27 HoMsaR : No, it's not a different type. It's a reconfiguration of the exits on the existing A321 frame to allow a higher maximum seating capacity. This really
28 behramjee : Gulf Air's longest flight with the current A321s is DAC-BAH which is 6 hours 10 minutes long without incurring any payload restrictions as we have 1 a
29 btblue : Time to build and A322 I think. There is a huge gap between the 321 and the 332.
30 AAMDanny : I think if the 2+3Doors are enlarged or enhanced I think the capacity can be increased. With some cleaver movement of galley and lavatory space the ex
31 CRJ900 : I guess super-slim seats are a given here as well. I have an old A321 seatmap from GECAS showing 220 seats @ 28 inch pitch with four lavatories and ga
32 JerseyFlyer : This could be very strategic for LCC fleet renewals. Their choice is 737 family or 320 family. All LCCs have a range of high and lower demand routes.
33 Stitch : The A321-200 has always had a capacity advantage over the 737-900ER due to it's ~2m longer cabin. As such, I don't see this additional capacity as so
34 babybus : 235 seats is actually more than the charter airline version of the old 757 which was 229. Having more seats is great for airlines but it's a bit of a
35 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : The plugged door will require maintenance at a heavy check whether it is used or not. That is also required if the door is covered over and not acces
36 Roseflyer : The inactive door does still require maintenance, but no where near as much. The inactive door requires a detailed inspection of seals, but the rest
37 Aircellist : Sorry, but there is something with your maps. No way would any aircraft fly further west on north Atlantic than it would fly east...
38 Post contains links egnr : Thomas Cook operate 235 seat B752s: http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Tho...Cook_Airlines_Boeing_757-200_B.php Thomson also operate 235 seat B752s: ht
39 B777LRF : Those maps aren't mine; they belong to Airbus. Feel free to play with them yourself on their website. But do keep in mind the projection of that map
40 Aircellist : Okay, I see... Thanks, and apologies, then... Yet, there is still something wrong with their maps, though... I don't know how it could be programmed
41 SXDFC : IMHO IF and I say IF Airbus was to make an "A322", hopefully it would be a direct TATL 757 replacement. I wonder if Airbus has even wondered if they s
42 Stitch : I'm sure they have considered it, but such a plane would require a new generation of engines in the 40-45,000 pound thrust range. By the time Boeing
43 Post contains images lightsaber : Ok, so this is a true 752 replacement for charter or other high density airlines. Cool... The NEO should have a little more range than the OEO would
44 BlueShamu330s : With MON, TCX group, BIE et al, all in discussions over fleet replacement on the charter front, plus British Airways approaching a strategic decision
45 clydenairways : There is only a small market for aircraft in this category so i doubt we will see a dedicated type being built to take over all the TATL NB stuff. Wh
46 airbazar : True however, a TATL capable A321 could be extremely useful for high density short haul routes, as well as have very good hot and high performance.
47 ZSOFN : From the looks of the placement of the aircraft icon on those (near CDG, SIN and IAD), I would say the very tip of the nose represents its intended l
48 SKAirbus : Although looks can be deceiving, British Airways for example configure their A321s with more seats than their 757s ever had. I reckon we will see them
49 Polot : Guys, BA is not going to be interested in this variant. As is they configure their A321s with 188 seats. This new proposal is just additional doors t
50 Daleaholic : The British charter airlines will be rubbing their hands together at the thought of this! Except TOM, they're going all Boeing.
51 clydenairways : I think this 235 seat version is more directed at LCC's. Anyway the charter business is dying anyway with less and less of them left every year. LCC'
52 LHCVG : I don't think there will be a dedicated TATL plane either, but as I said in the 797 thread, I do think here will be at some point a 757 replacement i
53 Roseflyer : There are about 250 airplanes with less than 200 seats that are routinely used on flights above 2500 miles. That's not enough of a market to push CFM
54 airbazar : Uh? I'm pretty sure Airbus is working to make the A321NEO, TATL capable, hence the name: NEO. So it will exist. The only question is how far beyond t
55 Polot : huh? NEO= New Engine Option. Nothing to do with being TATL capable or not.
56 LHCVG : Not specifically, but it will no doubt help the prospects of the airframe making it.
57 Roseflyer : The new engine is for efficiency. Neither the LeapX or PW1000G are going to surpass the current maximum 33,000K thrust rating. Without more powerful
58 Post contains links and images lightsaber : There is thrust growth potential. It is a question of when, not if we see a TATL NEO and MAX. The sharklets with some other changes might do that on
59 clydenairways : Couldn't have said it better myself. The primary goal by both Boeing and Airbus is to make the A320/737 class as efficient as possible, and not to gr
60 packsonflight : There where Boeing briefing earlier this year that stated only 50 757 out of roughly 1000 produced are serving routes near or at the maximum range of
61 airbazar : No one is saying that. All I'm saying, along with other people in the know, is that the A321NEO will be capable of flying TATL at some point, thanks
62 PW100 : That is a very dangerous conclusion. What is constraining hat market? Are there important market forces at play (which you and others seem to suggest
63 LHCVG : I agree - I think one of the major stumbling blocks is the marginal TATL range of the 757 to date. However, were there to be a new NB at some point w
64 Stitch : I'd argue that the market is mostly US-flagged carriers who have fully amortized 757-200s available to use on secondary TATL markets to take advantag
65 airbazar : It's also excluding all the TATL routes that are abusing larger WB planes for lack of a suitable smaller plane, and it doesn't even get into the N.Am
66 LHCVG : That is my thought too, since there just seems to be so large a gap between the 757 and 767 (much more capable, but also much heavier and more expens
67 Polot : North-South flights tend to have less problems with winds, as winds typically blow West to East (think about the jetstream). That said some LATAM air
68 LHCVG : That's what I was thinking, so a 4,000-range NB can do a lot more than it could TATL. Hot and high is of course a problem though.
69 tdscanuck : Suitable equipment is available. And the TATL market is higher margin than almost anywhere else you can fly a 757 so, if it were worth it, we'd see a
70 packsonflight : Todays 321 goes for 6:10 with aux tanks, and we can assume that the NEO gains one hour, that is still one hour short of winglet 757 which goes for 8:
71 airbazar : Technically suitable perhaps but probably not economically suitable. If the A321NEO can fly the same route for 20-25% less, that puts a lot more rout
72 Post contains images lightsaber : I do not think the 752 represents the chances of the A321NEO TATL do to the A321's much lower cost per flight. As noted: Exactly. Routes that make les
73 Stitch : I can't see a market for such a plane except for long, thin point-to-point travel and I would expect it to have a hard time competing against the 787
74 LHCVG : I do think ~6000mi range at >200pax would be a bit far-fetched for this NB scenario, but OTOH I don't see any issue with something clocking in aro
75 Stitch : I'm sure it's doable, but I just don't see where the market isto support selling hundreds of them.
76 LHCVG : Well first I think that it will somewhat make it's own market, as said above. But I don't think it HAS to sell a huge number of frames because it is
77 airbazar : It would be much more than just a variant. I don't see a way to streatch the A321NEO much past the 4,000nm range without making it much heavier and t
78 parapente : It is a question of when, not if we see A321s going TATL. Money is being spent to look into that. Obviously not at EIS. But at the first thrust growth
79 LHCVG : I was thinking (back of the envelope stuff here) that a combo of engine PIP's after the NEO is in service a couple years, MTOW increase/possibly addi
80 lightsaber : We can agree on that. Airbus is trying to capture as much as possible of the 752 replacement market as possible. There are many different aspects. Th
81 Post contains images Stitch : It was also what customers wanted in discussions with Boeing. Folks seem to conveniently forget this when discussing an Airbus 767-sized widebody or
82 PW100 : Would an 8000nm WB offer lower CASM than a 4000 nm NB? I'm by no means an expert, but that's a lot of excess plane to carry around for only 4000 nm,
83 Stitch : It may very well be the case, especially in a high-density two-class configuration where the seat count delta is 100+ seats.
84 ODwyerPW : Could definitely see these airlines going in this direction. While 28" pitch is painful for Europeans/NorthAmericans, the truth is people are smaller
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