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KL To Become An AF Subsidiary  
User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 521 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 22856 times:

Funny FlightGlobal hasn't picked up on this one, but last week dutch newspaper De Telegraaf reported KL is to become an AF subsidiary instead of the present situation where AF an KL are both (more or less) equivalent companies in the AF/KL Group.

Of course, this was to be expected in the long run, but is has some unions up north worried.

Sorry, no link. The article was published in the paper version last friday with a follow up on saturday.

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePH-BFA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 22583 times:

Quoting 76er (Thread starter):
dutch newspaper De Telegraaf

'nuff said..

Quoting 76er (Thread starter):
Funny FlightGlobal hasn't picked up on this one,

Because FlightGlobal sticks to facts instead of 'telegraaf' rumours.

Quoting 76er (Thread starter):
to become an AF subsidiary instead of the present situation where AF an KL are both (more or less) equivalent companies in the AF/KL Group.

Not true. Some double staff functions are to be integrated (simply put: why have two managers for the same function, if you can have one), however KL is not becoming an AF subsidiary like HV is to KL.


User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 521 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 22164 times:

Although I generally agree with you on this newspaper, when it comes to business topics they are usually very well informed. Like it or not, but KL is about to become another Air Inter, UTA, CityJet a.s.o., where Paris will be calling 100% of the shots.

[Edited 2012-12-17 06:15:15]

User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1709 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 21938 times:

If it is true then it scuppers the rumours of AF/KL splitting up that were going around!


Next Flights: LHR-OSL (319-BA), OSL-LHR (319-BA), LHR-IAH (744-BA), MSY-LGA (319-DL), JFK-LHR (744-BA)
User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5131 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21532 times:

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 4):
If it is true then it scuppers the rumours of AF/KL splitting up that were going around!

That would be better for KLM. KLM has always been the better performing one in the group.


User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1920 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21510 times:

There is a talk about a new structure for the AF-KLM group, but that has been going on for years. So far I know, these are still the plans;

AF-KLM will remain as is. Both separate companies, under one holding. There will, however be, less subsidiaries;

* One cargo airline (Martinair is named)
* One regional carrier (CityJet), Air France recently started the integration for it's regional outlets like Régional. KLM Cityhopper is expected to join as last.
* One LCC (Transavia NL & France)

These plans are moving at a a very slow pace due to all the union issues involved. So are the unions at the regionals very concerned about the employee benefits under the CityJet umbrella. However, AF-KLM is going to push this issue to lower it's cost structure in the upcoming years. We are seeing the same at other European airlines (like Iberia and Lufthansa), all are looking at new vehicles to operate with lower costs.

The one big issue for the group is how to react when Alitalia wants to join. There are enough challenges integrating the AF-KLM branches at this moment, let a lone entering a third party.

The article of De Telegraaf was full of speculation due to the fact that the KLM CEO Peter Hartman is due to leave the airline next year and is to be replaced by former Minister of Transport Camiel Eurlings.

Cheers!   



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9320 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 21337 times:

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 6):
The one big issue for the group is how to react when Alitalia wants to join.

Shut the doors, close the windows, change the mail adresses, phone numbers and pretend you don''t speak the language....  

KLM has been through that before, with AZ and it failed. They simply chose the rwrong partners, AF and AZ should have teamed up with IB and BA would have been the perfect match for KL.

How can an efficiently run carrier, based in a country where they understand how to run a business, team up with an airline that is based in a state run economy ruled by an old boys network of L'ecole nationale?



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7884 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 19612 times:

In my (probably uninformed) opinion, I think AF should become the subsidiary... isn't KL the one making money? (or was?)


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineAOMlover From France, joined Jul 2001, 1303 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 18946 times:

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 6):
One regional carrier (CityJet)

Are you sure it will be named Cityjet ? AF is in the process of integrating its regional subsidiaries (Brit Air, Régional CAE and Airlinair) but the final name will only be unveiled at the beginning of 2013. Cityjet would make much sense though.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
team up with an airline that is based in a state run economy ruled by an old boys network of L'ecole nationale?

Wow, what a balanced opinion ! I'm 100% open to criticism towards France, however you're going a bit too far, aren't you ? It's not like there are no successful international companies based in France...Accor, Safran, Total, LVMH, Chanel, SG, Hermès, Alstom, AXA, Essilor, Danone, EDF, L'Oréal, Michelin, Pernot Ricard, Gemalto to name a few...so much for a state-run economy !


User currently offlinekjellverschuren From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 18366 times:

Quoting AOMlover (Reply 9):

I think he was talking about Italy?


User currently offlineAmricanShamrok From Ireland, joined May 2008, 2890 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 18238 times:

Quoting AOMlover (Reply 9):

Would the combined AF regional carrier still be based in Dublin (as CityJet currently is)?



Shannon-Chicago
User currently onlineAOMlover From France, joined Jul 2001, 1303 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 18026 times:

Quoting kjellverschuren (Reply 10):
think he was talking about Italy?

In that case he'd be speaking of "la Scuola Nazionale"  


User currently offlineskiaplg From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2012, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 17731 times:

Quoting kjellverschuren (Reply 10):
Quoting kjellverschuren (Reply 10):
I think he was talking about Italy?

I don't think he was... he did mention l'école nationale, which isn't italian.

edit: drat! someone got in before me!

[Edited 2012-12-17 10:05:53]

User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2159 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 17524 times:

While he wasn't clear, I am pretty sure PanHAM was talking about KL (the Netherlands) vs AF (France).

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9320 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 17275 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 14):
While he wasn't clear, I am pretty sure PanHAM was talking about KL (the Netherlands) vs AF (France).

confirmed.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinePSA727LAX From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 16630 times:

Is KLM going along with this willingly? I am surprised they aren't pushin to be the lead dawg in this train. If AF/KL are co-equals then it would stand that they would rather split off and go it alone again. I find it hard to believe that KL is willingly agreein to this unless they have already received verification in writing from AF that they will continue to rule their own fortunes; that this is striclty a way to clean up certian duplicative areas.

User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 521 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 15878 times:

The thing is that this wasn't a merger, but a takeover, although the dutch like to think otherwise. There were some guarantees about keeping the KL brand and the AMS hub, but with an expiration date.

User currently offlineroyaldutchgirl From Netherlands, joined Sep 2011, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 15497 times:

It was expected, but wow, it is bad news... The end of KLM, Transavia, Martinair and the end of AMS as a hub.
Well done, the Netherlands! Many years ago you sold your aviation. Congratulations!  


User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17064 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 15327 times:

Quoting 76er (Reply 16):
There were some guarantees about keeping the KL brand and the AMS hub, but with an expiration date.
Quoting royaldutchgirl (Reply 17):
It was expected, but wow, it is bad news... The end of KLM, Transavia, Martinair and the end of AMS as a hub.
Well done, the Netherlands! Many years ago you sold your aviation. Congratulations!




I really doubt that this will mean the end of KLM/AMS hub. No one in their right mind would close down a well functioning hub. Besides that, there is no way that AF can absorb all that extra traffic if AMS would lose its status as a major hub.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlinenipoel123 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2011, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 15085 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 18):
I really doubt that this will mean the end of KLM/AMS hub.

Me too. If the two are combining into one big airline, they would have to change their name, at least. AMS full of Air France titled planes, don't think so. Is there any other hub in Europe (or the world for that matter) that has an airline of another country there? Not to my knowledge...



one mile of road leads to nowhere, one mile of runway leads to anywhere
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17064 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 14955 times:

Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 19):
the two are combining into one big airline, they would have to change their name, at least. AMS full of Air France titled planes, don't think so



That would never go well. Why ruin a well know and successful brand?

Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 19):
Is there any other hub in Europe (or the world for that matter) that has an airline of another country there? Not to my knowledge...



Well you got Irish Ryanair with "hubs" all around Europe  



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3970 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14608 times:
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Quoting 76er (Reply 2):
Paris will be calling 100% of the shots.

The holding company that owns Air France and KLM under the current structure is French. Paris is already calling all the shots, whether you like it or not.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
isn't KL the one making money? (or was?)

KLM is making money, but it would take a team of forensic accountants to determine whether Air France's losses are a true reflection of its performance or the result of fiscal engineering and clever accounting.

The holding company for both carriers is taking advantage of different tax rates and regulations between France and the Netherlands by assigning as much revenue as possible to KLM and as many expenses as possible to Air France, all that because any profit would be taxed higher in France than in the Netherlands.

For example, two years ago, Air France alone bore the loss of fuel hedges gone bad even though the contract covered both carriers.

This practice is neither new nor unique. A recent example is Starbucks that uses its Dutch subsidiary to sell supplies to subsidiaries in other countries in Europe at inflated prices calculated, again, to maximize profits in the Netherlands and minimize them in other countries such as the UK...



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8703 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 14572 times:

Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 19):
Is there any other hub in Europe (or the world for that matter) that has an airline of another country there?

There are countless examples, both current and historic. I was going to mention just a few, but got sort of carried away... because this shows just how international a business aviation is. I'll include focus cities because those focuses do include some sizeable operations:

Air Berlin at PMI and VIE
CityJet/Air France Regional at ANR, DUB, LCY and RTM
Easyjet and Ryanair all over the place
Flybe (Nordic) at HEL
Norwegian at ARN, CPH and HEL, among others
Qantas at SIN
United and Delta at NRT

previously:
Lufthansa Italia at MXP
Pan Am at FRA, LHR and HND/NRT

The entire LAN group has done away with the "national carrier" image, but is controlled by the Chileans.
The airlines of the TUI group are a pan-European amalgam.
BA has a small Danish franchise that hubs at BLL.
Air France even operates a mini hub at MIA, with two A320 based there.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinerwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 13952 times:

I suppose it's the next logical step. Over the past few years we've slowly but surely seen KLM's service degrade further and further. I suppose it will stop when the airline has sunk to the level of AF. Over the past few years we've seen:
- the "April Fools" devaluation of FlyingBlue, which has significantly decreased the value of the program
- the introduction of Economy Comfort in Europe as of this month, which now means that even gold/silver members have to pay an extra fee to sit in the front half of the airplane
- a gradual decrease in catering (sandwiches and snacks getting cheaper in quality, replacement of juice with sugary nectar drinks, etc.)

I suppose it's easier for AF to make cuts in service quality at KLM than it is to fix their own union messes.


User currently onlineAOMlover From France, joined Jul 2001, 1303 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 13431 times:

I suppose it's easier to put everything on AF's back rather than admitting that KLM is having its own issues too.

To be fair:
- I have a lot of admiration for KLM, what they achieved over all those decades and their identity which is, in my opinion, relaxed, friendly and professional,
- Schiphol is by a long shot my favorite airport in Europe,
- an airline which still operates pax MD11 desserves our respect in any case.

However:
- Air France is not that bad as some people try to make it look here, I've logged 68 segments on AF that year alone (for 171 segments in total), short, médium and long haul, and I've never had to fill any complaint. I've always received courteous service and 97% of my flights left on time,
- CDG has improved a lot lately, mainly since the consolidation of AF operations in terminals 2E and 2F which are recent, airy and easy to navigate,
- even the on-board service is being improved. AF is bringing back hot meals on some segments (ex: CDG-TUN, 2h15mn Flight that I took last month)

Finally:
- Nothing proves that the degradation of FB was dictated solely by AF. Ex-Fréquence plus members have suffered from this downgrade as much as ex-FD members. Other major FFPs have been severely downgraded lately. Miles and More just had its own version of the infamous "april's fool".
- the decrease in on board catering and the introduction of new ways to generate revenue such as "seat plus" or "economy comfort" are a general trend within major European airlines. How can AF be the only culprit if KL is doing the same cuts as everyone else ?

You make it sound as if KL is always the victim and AF always the hangman. Fact is, there are decision-makers in both companies and AFKL may already be more Integrated than you think,


25 SuperCaravelle : Exactly. It's much more complicated than a big bad airline and a smaller good airline. However, Dutch press is going viral with this story, of course
26 Post contains images royaldutchgirl : Yep it seems like that's the next logical step. Sadly. As a dutch person, of course I would be sad to see good old KLM disappear or turn into a small
27 B747forever : Do you really believe that KLM will be dismantled? That would only be sheer stupidity as the AFKL group would lose massive amounts of traffic.
28 SuperCaravelle : If KLM were to go, AF would have to change it's colors and name as well, for patriotic reasons (Dutch citizens and press won't accept it). Throwing a
29 KL838 : I don't they they will be a subsidiary under Air France, but rather stay as how they are under the AirFrance-KLM Group, i just don't see much advantag
30 AOMlover : Come on people, I understand your concern but why are you being so pessimistic ? We've been hearing this "KLM is going to be eaten by AF and AMS will
31 TexL1649 : They'll have to keep the KL plane washing facilities. AF doesn't even own any, do they?
32 aloges : It's because AF represents the big, bad French bogeyman as much as LH represents the big, bad German bogeyman. You can't have a rational discussion w
33 Post contains images BasilFawlty : I'm probably the only Dutch person who doesn't care if the KLM brand would disappear? I have absolutely no sympathy for KLM at all because of their at
34 L0VE2FLY : Hope this is just a rumor, it'll be a sad day to see the world's oldest airline go. I read on this forum several times that KLM can't be fully absorbe
35 SamuP : I truly, and very honestly have to say the day KL as an airline or a brand disappears it will probably be the end of my love for aviation. I still rem
36 blueflyer : I think there is a lot of jumping to conclusions. Just because the Air France - KLM holding company, the current parent of both carriers, disappears a
37 MauriceB : First of all, KLM denies all these accusations. The thing is that KLM just got way more efficient in the past couple of years by replacing its aging f
38 anstar : This makes more sense... There is a place for AF and a place for KL.... however why on earth do we still have all the regional carriers.... just crea
39 CARST : And there is a reason for it, I am always complaining about LH and AB, too. They are more expensive nearly all the time when flying long-haul compare
40 76er : Agreed. In the foreseeable future the brandname KL will continue to exist, if only because of bilateral and sentimental reasons. That doesn't have an
41 joost : Right so. Ever since the takeover / merger in 2004, people all over the country were predicting doom. KLM would disappear rapidly, the French would c
42 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Hartman is scheduled for pension next year, and I have it from good sources that Eurlings is the confirmed man for the job. Well said! Well, the City
43 AF185 : I couldn't agree more with your comments in this thread!
44 royaldutchgirl : Well yes, you've got a point there, but where there's smoke, there's fire in many cases. Besides, most human beings aren't always rational. That does
45 AirGabon : You are 100% right, I totally agree.
46 bobnwa : I would say that the airines that are flyingpax from neighboring countries a a lower fare are the utterly stupid ones. The pupose of any airline is t
47 Post contains images aloges : People said the same about Pan Am and TWA... ...and how many of those airline brands have disappeared? BMI has gone the way of the dodo, but you migh
48 joost : I believe the idea is already gone. Especially, as AF is actively trying to sell loss-making CityJet. IMO, the whole idea was only launched in order
49 SuperCaravelle : Still, it seems to be the way some other airlines are going, with Finnair teaming up with FlyBe, Lufthansa creating a few new cheap/regional carriers
50 joost : There are basically 4 ways how airlines deploy their regional network (for regional aircraft, roughly planes below 100 seats): 1) Do all the regional
51 Humberside : AF haven't outsourced anything to BE. It's just a codeshare (though up until around a decade ago AF 'outsourced' LHR-LYS/TLS to BE)
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