lostsound From Canada, joined May 2012, 161 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 20067 times:
Quote: Introducing Air Canada’s new leisure airline with stylishly affordable service to holiday spots in Europe and the Caribbean. Benefit from Air Canada’s extensive network for smooth connections to flights departing daily from Toronto and Montreal. Service begins July 1, 2013. It’s time to go more. Where will your next holiday take you?
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15730 posts, RR: 48 Reply 5, posted (5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 19734 times:
I was thinking it should be called Drapeau Rouge (Red Flag)--I wasn't far off! At least they have the same person running it that came up with its predecessor Tango; but I'm sure it's *totally* different this time!
" In 2001, while working as an independent consultant, Ben led the team that launched Tango, Air Canada's pioneering strategy in a separately branded operation and in 2002 he joined Air Canada full time as Managing Director of Tango."
crosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 684 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 19723 times:
Ok, while I am by no means an expert in LCCs, I do see some things here that make me question the viability of this venture. It seems that this "Rogue" is not at all separate from Air Canada itself and thus not really a true LCC. There are items such as:
-Booking on the AC website with AC flight numbers (operated by Rogue)
-Ability to connect to/from other AC flights in YYZ/YUL
-Ability to accrue miles
-AC Lounge access under certain conditions
-Complimentary meals on flights to Europe
-And so on...
So basically, I don't understand how this is really an LCC and I don't see how this model is different from the failed LCC spinoffs such as Song and TED. (Yes, I understand that the actual flights will be operated by a separate group with different wages, etc., but that in itself does not guarantee a successful airline.) I am also guessing that the managament/opearations/strategy/planning/etc. will also be done by AC and not by Rogue? If this is the case, then how is this venture going to succeed?
Again, like I said, I'm not at all an expert in this field and I'm just stating some of my observations. So if I'm wrong in any of this, I'd love to understand how.
skipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 2376 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 19597 times:
The livery is like the Air Canada of old.
What about DUB? Was that not expected to be included?
Wonder why they went for EDI over GLA? YYZ has never managed more than once weekly with Worldways then Air Transat, indeed it was recently dropped. Good news though.
YXD172 From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 427 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 19395 times:
Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 6):
-Booking on the AC website with AC flight numbers (operated by Rogue)
-Ability to connect to/from other AC flights in YYZ/YUL
-Ability to accrue miles
-AC Lounge access under certain conditions
-Complimentary meals on flights to Europe
-And so on...
While some of these are definitely not your typical LCC style, I have a feeling that the new LCC is mainly geared at lowering staffing costs and flying higher density aircraft. Using AC's existing site makes sense, and meals to Europe are needed unless they want to reduce service below TS / WG. The other factors allow them to offer three tiers of fares, and I'm sure that the extra revenue from Lattitude will more than offset the extra costs if they can sell the higher priced tickets.
That said, I'm not too sure how I feel about 29" pitch on the A319s! I avoided 5G flights for that reason, and with WS and TS offering more legroom (and better service in TS's case)... Even WG offers complimentary food (and wine!) on their Caribbean flights, so I guess it all comes down to price.
Radial engines don't leak oil, they are just marking their territory!
northstardc4m From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2804 posts, RR: 40 Reply 11, posted (5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 19360 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW CHAT OPERATOR
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 8): Wonder why they went for EDI over GLA? YYZ has never managed more than once weekly with Worldways then Air Transat, indeed it was recently dropped. Good news though.
I would guess they are offering it in conjunction with a group tour or something.
I'll hold my breath on the livery till i see it in person, looks good though.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
mpsrent From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 92 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 19348 times:
I was hoping for YYZ to MAN as such a large, central and popular British destination for Canadians could use more flight options. In any case I can understand why they selected EDI to avoid strong competition with TS while DUB and GLA are well serviced by TS.
kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 11953 posts, RR: 37 Reply 14, posted (5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 19307 times:
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 8): The livery is like the Air Canada of old.
What about DUB? Was that not expected to be included?
I was wondering that myself; still, probably a good thing, because it means that mainline AC is staying on the DUB route. I have a horrible feeling that they might go 8 abreast on these 767s and that's not a comfortable prospect for anyone, complimentary meals or not.
saloman From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 94 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 19219 times:
Another question is how they will treat Star Gold pax from other airlines. They only mention AC top tier on that webpage getting lounge access, so it'll be interesting to see how harmonized it actually will be with mainline. that would certainly be an easy way to curb costs, but I'm unclear as to what their obligations would actually be vis-a-vis ACs Star membership.
BlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2515 posts, RR: 25 Reply 17, posted (5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 19094 times:
Quoting kaitak (Reply 14): I have a horrible feeling that they might go 8 abreast on these 767s and that's not a comfortable prospect for anyone, complimentary meals or not.
Seat map shows 2-3-2, whilst the Executive rows 1-3 are marked as "Cabin details coming soon."
northstardc4m From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2804 posts, RR: 40 Reply 18, posted (5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 18892 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW CHAT OPERATOR
Quoting kaitak (Reply 14): I have a horrible feeling that they might go 8 abreast on these 767s and that's not a comfortable prospect for anyone, complimentary meals or not.
I don't think they can with the current exit configuration, they would need to have the A-A-I-A 4 door config to support that seating density.
AC are in the A-III-III-A 2 overwing hatch config:
CP Had some leased 763s in the A-A-I-A config, but i believe they were all returned to lessors after the merger (they were all -3Y0s), and i can't find anyone operating 2-4-2 with anything but 4 doors.
[Edited 2012-12-18 10:10:56]
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5309 posts, RR: 47 Reply 19, posted (5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 18854 times:
Quoting etops1 (Reply 1): Yeah um , Why do they think its a good idea to do this ?
You're not a real airline until you've made a "low cost" spin off and folded it after a couple years
Not saying it WILL fail, but the track record hasn't been good for the other airlines. It's hard for an airline to lower its costs even in a different entity, IIRC, Song still had higher costs as a spin off than B6 or WN.
Good luck to them. If anything, I hope they learn something from it if they fail at it. Song was considered a failure by many, but if you look at DL today, they are basically half-Song half-Delta... they incorporated a lot from Song even if the brand disappeared
Edit: I live the livery except the "rouge" on it looks pretty tacky
polaris From Canada, joined Feb 2000, 1118 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 18780 times:
Good name...good look...should stand out in the skies and at airports. Wonder if the call sign will be aircanada or rouge or aircanada rouge.
The rouge/red of the leisure division contrasts nicely with the silver sky colour of the mainline...red - fun; blue - business.
Venice, Edinburgh - not expected as first destinations but this is the leisure division, after all. Athens, not surprised. This is also a cruise destination so fits in perfectly with Air Canada Vacations.
SXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2009 posts, RR: 19 Reply 24, posted (5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 18634 times:
I wish AC would use this for their regular color scheme.. Substitute the Red for the blue that they currently use, that would be one good looking plane..
Best of luck to this new airline, how many years will this one last?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
bobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 28, posted (5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 19734 times:
Id like to see Rouge, junked and AC adopt the entire scheme though.
Why are these markets important to AC? AC is a business airline, why are they trying to compete for low yield crap? AC gets in trouble when they try to chase the marginal passenger. My guess is they are scared of Air Transat and WestJet becoming too big overall. This is entirely a defensive move.
Kcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3629 posts, RR: 7 Reply 30, posted (5 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 19445 times:
This has not worked out for any airline yet, and failed twice for AC. What is different about this? How do you offer lower fares if your costs are the same?
catII From Canada, joined Feb 2011, 11 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 19046 times:
Tango was never meant to be "low cost", as in overall lower operating costs. It was a different brand within a brand and was actually quite successful. It's now implemented on mainline fares, Tango basically means lowest fare. It allowed Air Canada to separate it's mainline brand (higher service) without alienating its mainline pax. When it integrated these fares within the mainline fare, they were able to sell the same brand (concept) within mainline. You pay less, you get less is the "low cost" meaning on these fares. This also helped AC introduce it's a-la-carte fare options by adding on items such as food, bags, etc. Tango was also a longer haul, sun destination airline. The name comes from 'tan and go', as you would when you head to Mexico or the Caribbean.
Zip was different, the FA's were non-unionized, the pilots were part of mainline (as Rouge will be, albeit on a lower pay scale). Zip wasn't meant to fly out east, it was started with the same aircraft as WestJet (737-200) to compete with it on the same routes out west. This airline was discount, no frills, low cost. It was started while AC was in CCAA and was eventually absorbed by AC after they excited bankruptcy protection (CCAA).
There is a method to the madness, I suppose. Whether this is a long term thing, we shall see. But I definitely understand why they're doing this. This is going to allow them to compete with the likes of Transat, WestJet and Sunwing. Mainline is losing too many routes from the stiff competition these companies are providing. This at least allows them to compete on a lower cost structure and it does effectively differentiate mainline flying from the leisure division. I think you're going to see a fairly significant transformation of mainline with a different business class on the newer aircraft, premium economy etc. They will no longer have to mix the two concepts of leisure and business into one airline. This allows them to tailor to one or the other. There is now a push from the uppers internally to obtain "4 star" airline status on mainline and I think they know what needs to be done for that to happen. That doesn't include low yield routes to leisure oriented destinations.
I'll give you full credit, even if there was an assist from spell check
Quoting spqr (Reply 13): but in English who would want to fly an airline named after make-up?
See Crosswinds21 reply 6 for the English translation
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 19): You're not a real airline until you've made a "low cost" spin off and folded it after a couple years
Yah, but do you need to do it over and over? AC already owns a couple versions of this T Shirt.
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 28): AC is a business airline, why are they trying to compete for low yield crap?
As Elite for about the 10th time, I agree. I also fly WS a lot, but for international that doesn't work so well, and on the trunk domestic routes the extra frequency sure makes my work travel a lot less painful.
redzeppelin From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 276 posts, RR: 0 Reply 36, posted (5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 18611 times:
Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 30): This has not worked out for any airline yet
We've certainly seen it play out poorly in North America, with the likes of Tango, Ted and Song. But what about elsewhere? Is Germanwings working out well for LH? Jetstar/QF? Scoot/SQ? Too soon to tell?
tayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1084 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 18455 times:
Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 6): -Booking on the AC website with AC flight numbers (operated by Rogue)
-Ability to connect to/from other AC flights in YYZ/YUL
-Ability to accrue miles
-AC Lounge access under certain conditions
-Complimentary meals on flights to Europe
-And so on...
yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15989 posts, RR: 59 Reply 39, posted (5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 18327 times:
Sharp livery.
Quoting spqr (Reply 13): gah what a horrible name, works OK in French I guess, but in English who would want to fly an airline named after make-up?
Agree. Horrible name. Awkward in English. Translates into AC "Lipstick" which is non-sensical. It WILL be called AC Rogue when the renowned AC customer service problems occur.
I find it odd they would choose a French name to cater to an overwhelming English-speaking market -- but then AC mgmt has always been out of touch with the marketplace.
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 20): So is DUB staying with Air Canda mainline?
AC Rogue will grow over time and add more 763's. Then (likely) DUB, BCN, FCO and MAD will migrate over in time.
Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 30): This has not worked out for any airline yet, and failed twice for AC. What is different about this? How do you offer lower fares if your costs are the same?
Higher density seating and hence lower unit costs. In theory.
Quoting catII (Reply 34): There is a method to the madness, I suppose.
I see the madness, but not (yet) the method.
[Edited 2012-12-18 13:39:13]
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
luv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 11957 posts, RR: 51 Reply 40, posted (5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 18026 times:
The only area that I ever see this concept work is the South Pacific / Asia! And why you ask, as they run those as totally separate from the parent compnay. I don't see this lasting, Tango or Wizz part 2 or should I say Duex!
Giancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1262 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 17972 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38): Most English-speaking Canadians have studied enough French to know that "rouge" means "red", a colour long associated with AC.
Red will certainly be more fitting then Black when it comes to doing the books.
BeyondBristol From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 58 posts, RR: 0 Reply 42, posted (5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 17715 times:
I maybe missing the obvious here but I can't see anything that says this is a LCC. Throughout the site they refer to it as a "leisure airline". I don't follow AC much so I don't know if in the concept stages it was referred to as an LCC, but this appears to be a leisure operation much like BA and VS operate from LGW/MAN where you would expect to see widebody aircraft with meal service, etc.
GCT64 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 1104 posts, RR: 1 Reply 43, posted (5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 17761 times:
EDI-YYZ is good news for those of us who have a team based in Edinburgh (I do, so am always interested in new options for them) or visiting Edinburgh. Gives another non-backtracking option for business trips to the US as an alternative to EDI-EWR on UA.
I wonder if this is a result of the more aggressively competitive GIP taking over EDI from BAA?
yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15989 posts, RR: 59 Reply 44, posted (5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 17495 times:
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 41): Red will certainly be more fitting then Black when it comes to doing the books.
Good one!
Quoting BeyondBristol (Reply 42): I maybe missing the obvious here but I can't see anything that says this is a LCC.
You're missing nothing. There is nothing LCC about this. AC is the highest cost carrier in North America (and the only remaining NA carrier getting government support). Rogue can MAYBE lower costs towards Air Transat, Westjet and Sunwing (AC's 3 primary competitors) through higher density seating but their costs will still be higher, and in a commodity business where lowest costs rule, Rogue will likely fail.
When you put rouge on a pig, it's still a pig.
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1343 posts, RR: 0 Reply 45, posted (5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 17325 times:
Quoting BeyondBristol (Reply 42): I don't know if in the concept stages it was referred to as an LCC, but this appears to be a leisure operation
I think the intent was to operate the division with lower costs, which based on recent agreements with pilots and flights attendants, should result in that occurring. You are correct in comparing it more to a leisure operation than a LCC. To me it appears to be a strategy to remain in low-yielding markets without having the mainline operation exit a route because of it's higher costs. As an added benefit, it should allow them to reenter markets that they have discontinued, such as EDI.
canadiantree From France, joined Jun 2006, 92 posts, RR: 0 Reply 46, posted (5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 17305 times:
I'm not a fan of the livery, it looks very much like the Air Berlin livery which I think is boring. I'm already mad that Niki changed their livery to Air Berlin's scheme...
jpyvr From Canada, joined Jan 2000, 119 posts, RR: 0 Reply 48, posted (5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 17202 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 44): (and the only remaining NA carrier getting government support)
Could you please specify exactly what government support AC receives (other than what other Canadian airlines might receive). Historically, AC was a Crown Corporation, but as far as I had understood, it was privatized some time ago. I'm curious what you mean by the only NA carrier getting government support. Thanks!
yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15989 posts, RR: 59 Reply 49, posted (5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 16957 times:
Quoting jpyvr (Reply 48): Quoting yyz717 (Reply 44):
(and the only remaining NA carrier getting government support)
Could you please specify exactly what government support AC receives
Quoting jpyvr (Reply 48): it was privatized some time ago.
Glad to. Here's a couple:
1. The Federal Government intervened recently when AC unions were going to strike, preventing such a strike through legislation. This is a gross violation of the collective bargaining process, and deliberate favouritism towards AC mgmt by an interfering government. AC should be left to the marketplace to build or lose its fortune.
2. AC continues to operate lucrative international routes awarded to it when it was a Crown Corporation. These entrenched aurthorities represent an unfair market advantage overtly provided by a protective government, that continue to benefit AC today. AC's international route authority into all markets it operated to when it was privatized should be relinquished and put up to tender for all Cdn carriers. AC can of course bid on these routes fairly, along with WS, TS and anyone else. Then, and only then, will the Cdn industry be truly market driven, and a level playing field.
LhrRampRats From UK - England, joined Apr 2010, 54 posts, RR: 0 Reply 50, posted (5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 16956 times:
Not a fan of the livery. A quick glimpse at an airport and your first thought would be Qantas not to mention Air Berlin or TAM with regards to the back half of it.
Queue all the abuse!!
skipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 2376 posts, RR: 0 Reply 51, posted (5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 16730 times:
There are markets where Air Canada used to have a presence in which it can no longers serve to it's comparably higher cost base. It lost the UK to Zoom, flyGlobespan and Air Transat and now 2/3 have gone bust, it's a market that they feel they'd like to be a part of.
Skywatcher From Canada, joined Sep 2002, 441 posts, RR: 4 Reply 52, posted (5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 16640 times:
The Canadian air transport market is unique in the world. The exclusivly "leisure" carriers (Sunwing and Air Transat) go head to head with the "traditional" carriers (Westjet and AC) on hundreds of route pairings.
During the winter season the number of flights from Canada to Cuba/Mexico/Dominican Republic/Other Caribean destinations on these 4 airlines alone are huge. During an off day like today (Tuesday) there are 39 flights from YYZ and 13 from YUL to the aforementioned leisure areas and that doesn't even include Florida or any foreign airlines (Cubana/BWIA/transferring via the U.S. etc).I doubt that any other city in North America (except Miami) has anywhere near the number of flights that YYZ does to these leisure destinations.
I think comparing Rouge to what is going on in other markets like Australia, the U.S. or Asia is simply not legitimate.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 54, posted (5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 16282 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 49): AC continues to operate lucrative international routes awarded to it when it was a Crown Corporation. These entrenched aurthorities represent an unfair market advantage overtly provided by a protective government, that continue to benefit AC today. AC's international route authority into all markets it operated to when it was privatized should be relinquished and put up to tender for all Cdn carriers. AC can of course bid on these routes fairly, along with WS, TS and anyone else. Then, and only then, will the Cdn industry be truly market driven, and a level playing field.
You're overlooking that many of those markets, for example at least 30 countries in Europe, now have Open Skies bilaterals that permit any carrier to begin service, and many other bilaterals that were once limited to a single carrier from the origin and destination countries, now permit multiple designation. How, for example, would the government take away AC's international route authority to LHR/FRA/CDG/SCL to name only a few (plus all 50+ of their U.S. destinations), when they and any other Canadian carrier have complete freedom to start service tomorrow?
Another example of a more restrictive bilateral - Australia. Two Canadian carriers once operated to Australia but I don't see anyone scrambling to replace Canada 3000's short-lived service prior to their going bust.
CaptCufflinks From UK - England, joined Dec 2012, 78 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 15981 times:
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 8): What about DUB? Was that not expected to be included?
When I first clicked the link I thought to myself, will they operate DUB? Maybe even BFS like TS do? Very surprised to see neither route.
I don't think this is like TSC or OOM, it looks to me like they have this entity called "Air Canada Vacations" and the marketing people decided that was getting a bit old and needed a bit of a push, hence Rouge.
I love the ACA Boeing 767's, so to see them flying some new interesting routes can only be a good thing from an Airnutter's perspective!
9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1343 posts, RR: 0 Reply 57, posted (5 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 15408 times:
For those disappointed with the limited European network, it should noted that it appears that it's just a start as there will only be 2 B763's initially. I'm not going to speculate if this venture will succeed, time will tell. I don't think AC has any option other than to try, and if it's fails, then it will not have been a costly exercise.
They say they are a leisure airline, so I guess there is a lot more tourism in EDI than GLA. Probably more business too with banking if business people are prepared to be cramed into a leisure seat if the time saving is worth it vs connecting over LHR, AMS or FRA. With BD gone, no Star connection over LHR now either, so those limited miles may also be better than nothing.
Great for us anyway, my wifes family is from Fife so saves backtracking to AMS, paying crazy BA fares via LHR or the lovely drive to GLA to get on TS which is usually one flight per week so not too flexible. I suppose VS is now an option.
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 28): Why are these markets important to AC? AC is a business airline, why are they trying to compete for low yield crap? AC gets in trouble when they try to chase the marginal passenger. My guess is they are scared of Air Transat and WestJet becoming too big overall. This is entirely a defensive move.
Particularly the new product at TS is actually not bad.
Have to say I do like the mainline toothpaste too though, particularly in winter sunlight.
Quoting catII (Reply 34): Tango was never meant to be "low cost", as in overall lower operating costs. It was a different brand within a brand and was actually quite successful. It's now implemented on mainline fares
Exactly, it lives on today as fare structure across the board rather than a stand alone branding.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38): Most English-speaking Canadians have studied enough French to know that "rouge" means "red", a colour long associated with AC.
But the slogan is Rouge to go, when we all now we stop at red...
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 41): Red will certainly be more fitting then Black when it comes to doing the books.
Maybe the new WS longhaul will ne called Westjet Noire
cyeg66 From Canada, joined Feb 2011, 166 posts, RR: 1 Reply 60, posted (5 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12587 times:
This is all unsurprisingly boring news from an airline with an even more underwhelming sense of originality. Be sure to thank the Feds when this venture folds later on (at great expense). "Rouge". Terriblement cle-verrrrre., oui? Yay. Go eastern Canada... Back to sleep, now.
slow to 160, contact tower, slow to 160, contact tower, slow to....ZZZZZZZ......
airlinebuilder From Philippines, joined Nov 2012, 101 posts, RR: 0 Reply 62, posted (5 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 12054 times:
The livery is somewhat striking though it gives out an impression of air berlin on first look but the appreciation rises and it calls ones attention even way more than the current ice cold theme Air Canada Legacy line
abrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 4917 posts, RR: 55 Reply 66, posted (5 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 11326 times:
Can someone please tell me how the fares they have given as introductory are revolutionary? While they may be able to make money off this idea, increasingly I find AC uninspiring.
nighthawk From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 4990 posts, RR: 38 Reply 67, posted (5 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 11337 times:
Quoting 9252fly (Reply 45): As an added benefit, it should allow them to reenter markets that they have discontinued, such as EDI.
Air Canada never served EDI, they did however serve GLA.
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 8): Wonder why they went for EDI over GLA? YYZ has never managed more than once weekly with Worldways then Air Transat, indeed it was recently dropped. Good news though.
I was wondering that too. I guess it depends on who the flights will be marketed to. Glasgow is the main population centre, and tends to have a lot of outbound demand, however EDI is the main tourism and business city, and tends to attract more inbound traffic. If the flights are being marketed mainly at Canadian holiday makers, then EDI might be the more appealing destination.
Also add to that the fact that Air Transat already fly from GLA, so there is less competition out of EDI. However, in reality it probably came down to which airport was prepared to offer the best deal.
skipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 2376 posts, RR: 0 Reply 69, posted (5 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10832 times:
Actually AC had a base at Prestwick long before they moved to Glasgow in May 1990. The long haul product on the TriStars was virtually all economy, indeed charter flights were often seen as well. We also used to see high Y B747-100s up against WD. The more things change, the more things stay the same....
YYZ - EDI - $949 special introductory fare
YUL - EDI - $1048 special introductory fare
Very revolutionary if you ask me, because for those fares you get 30" pitch and 3" of recline (never did understand how recline is measured), 800 miles (or around 20-25% of the miles travelled) and no IFE. I honestly can't think of a crappier Y product at that fare anywhere in the developed or even developing world. To put it in perspective, TK YYZ-IST goes for a similar fare, albeit with 32" seat pitch, 6" of recline and IFE. Pretty freaking revolutionary insofar as it marks a new low in Canadian air service standards.
Will it beat TS? your guess is as good as mine.
Interesting to note the absence of the AC folk on this thread. Guess they ve been told to maintain radio silence.
I hope they will soon fly MXP or VIE in the winter.
I might get a round-trip the other way to see some great NHL game!
You can see an NHL game now, just go to any European hockey game, all the good players are in Switzerland.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 6):
It seems that this "Rogue" is not at all separate from Air Canada
Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 6):
-Booking on the AC website with AC flight numbers (operated by Rogue)
Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 6):
am also guessing that the managament/opearations/strategy/planning/etc. will also be done by AC and not by Rogue?
The name is "Rouge" ("red" in French), not "Rogue".
Fly2yyz From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 964 posts, RR: 2 Reply 72, posted (5 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9534 times:
Hmm... anyone realize that air travel in Canada is terribly expensive...yes probably due to taxes as well....but why isn't AC offering any domestic routings...the routings it seems they make great money on charging higher prices than say being able to fly YVR-YUL affordably.
lostsound From Canada, joined May 2012, 161 posts, RR: 0 Reply 73, posted (5 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9333 times:
Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 72): Hmm... anyone realize that air travel in Canada is terribly expensive...yes probably due to taxes as well....but why isn't AC offering any domestic routings...the routings it seems they make great money on charging higher prices than say being able to fly YVR-YUL affordably.
I agree. Flying out of YYT is very expensive, even just to get to YHZ.
I think Canada needs a 3rd full service airline (4th if you feel like including Porter). That would create competition, thus lowering fares.
I know people here keep saying there is no room for any more domestic carriers in Canada but I strongly believe that is not true. With the right CEO & business plan, strong funding, and clever advertising I'm confident it can be done without being acquired by Air Canada.
airtrainer From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 1519 posts, RR: 13 Reply 79, posted (5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8013 times:
Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 66): Can someone please tell me how the fares they have given as introductory are revolutionary? While they may be able to make money off this idea, increasingly I find AC uninspiring.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 70):
YYZ - EDI - $949 special introductory fare
YUL - EDI - $1048 special introductory fare
Very revolutionary if you ask me, because for those fares you get 30" pitch and 3" of recline (never did understand how recline is measured), 800 miles (or around 20-25% of the miles travelled) and no IFE. I honestly can't think of a crappier Y product at that fare anywhere in the developed or even developing world. To put it in perspective, TK YYZ-IST goes for a similar fare, albeit with 32" seat pitch, 6" of recline and IFE. Pretty freaking revolutionary insofar as it marks a new low in Canadian air service standards.
That's what I was wondering. I just picked a random date and found fares to VCE way cheaper than the advertised launch fare
I would think EDI over GLA as no competition to YYZ from there, well maybe apart from a Thomas Cook 757 in the summer, if it still operates? I think Rouge cost base be a little higher than TS so start afresh from EDI and see how it goes..
Skywatcher From Canada, joined Sep 2002, 441 posts, RR: 4 Reply 82, posted (5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7953 times:
Air Transat just reported sharply above expected quarterly results (75 cents actual vs. 42 cents expected). They specifically reported that last summer's trans-Atlantic business was "arguably the best ever". Maybe the folks at AC aren't so stupid.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4281 posts, RR: 36 Reply 84, posted (5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7898 times:
Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 82): Air Transat just reported sharply above expected quarterly results (75 cents actual vs. 42 cents expected). They specifically reported that last summer's trans-Atlantic business was "arguably the best ever". Maybe the folks at AC aren't so stupid.
Last summer, Transat carried more Canadians across the Atlantic than Air Canada. (which also means more than anyone else!)
That is what the leisure traveler wants, a cheap seat ... and Transat delivers it ... in spades! Rouge is aimed at just that. A cheap, safe, reliable seat. Ignoring the competition when it is walking all over you never works!
I too am curious if this is going to work, as so far, other than the higher seating density, and the lower pilot wages, nothing else is cheaper. I fear it will end up like Zip. (Tango is different, as the Tango concept of a la carte pricing still exists).
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 85, posted (5 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7785 times:
Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 30): This has not worked out for any airline yet, and failed twice for AC.
I wouldn't say Tango and Zip failed. Tango was just a brand and was folded into the mainline airline and now exists as the two lowest fare categories. Zip was a LCC with some staff hired at lower salaries and worked well to make use of the ex-CP 737-200s until they were retired.
Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 58): Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 17):
Seat map shows 2-3-2, whilst the Executive rows 1-3 are marked as "Cabin details coming soon."
evening news was reporting a 30 inch seat pitch... If true, ouch.
With many of the new lightweight, thin-back seats you have more effective legroom at 30 inch pitch than with the older, bulkier seats at 32 inches. Comparing seat pitch alone is meaningless. Many major carriers have installed the lightweight seats. For example, the Recaro seats on LX A319/320/321s at 31 inch pitch have as much legroom than the previous seats at 33 or 34 inch pitch. And the additional seats the reduced pitch permits generate a lot of additional revenue. And a 7-abreast 767 is much better than the cramped 8-abreast of Air Transat A310s and 330s. In fact, 7-abreast on a 767 is the best widebody configuration of all and more than makes up for an inch or two of seat pitch. How many other widebodies can operate at an 87% load factor before anyone has to sit in a middle seat?
Quoting lostsound (Reply 73): know people here keep saying there is no room for any more domestic carriers in Canada but I strongly believe that is not true. With the right CEO & business plan, strong funding, and clever advertising I'm confident it can be done
How many Canadian carriers have tried and failed? Wardair, Canada 3000, Jetsgo, Greyhound Air, Roots Air, and the list goes on.
Hi Longhauler, I am sure we were speaking about this the other day ...Strange it came up today.Will AC use existing flight deck or are they recruiting out with?
Fly2yyz From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 964 posts, RR: 2 Reply 87, posted (5 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7754 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85): How many Canadian carriers have tried and failed? Wardair, Canada 3000, Jetsgo, Greyhound Air, Roots Air, and the list goes on.
Can't the same be said about Canada/International carriers that flew to Canada and had either been driven out of business due to AC/bad business model/etc?
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 88, posted (5 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7738 times:
Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 87): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
How many Canadian carriers have tried and failed? Wardair, Canada 3000, Jetsgo, Greyhound Air, Roots Air, and the list goes on.
Can't the same be said about Canada/International carriers that flew to Canada and had either been driven out of business due to AC/bad business model/etc?
lostsound From Canada, joined May 2012, 161 posts, RR: 0 Reply 89, posted (5 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7729 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85): How many Canadian carriers have tried and failed? Wardair, Canada 3000, Jetsgo, Greyhound Air, Roots Air, and the list goes on.
Yes, they were all poor business models. In order to survive in Canada you need a good product, a frequent flyer program, competitive frequency, and the lowest possible fare.
Aquila3 From Italy, joined Nov 2010, 208 posts, RR: 0 Reply 90, posted (5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7683 times:
Quoting brilondon (Reply 71): You can see an NHL game now, just go to any European hockey game, all the good players are in Switzerland.
Hate to argue with a Canadian about that, but,
that is only partially true for the Spengler Cup, in Davos.
But to keep this OT short, what ruins all here are the European style (and specially Swiss) referees, and how they strictly enforce the rules. It is going to look like girl-scout camp party. Nothing to do with NHL. Anyway this winter I have some work to in Russia, I hope to see something interesting there, at least.
Back on topic, if the prices are the above mentioned ones, probably there are better options for getting in Canada for a leisure trip.
chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
Thomas Cook was flying in partnership with Air Transat for Canadian Affair. When you booked with Air Transat, sometimes your flight was with their A310 or A330 aircraft while other times it was a TC B757. The partnership ended abruptly two years ago when Thomas Cook got into financial difficulty.
As I fly twice a year to northwest England, I can use MAN or GLA as a destination so I welcome the addition of another airline option. The AC service to LHR is of no benefit to me and many other Canadians whose final destination is elsewhere in the U.K. anymore than it is of a benefit for those wishing to visit Canada and not living in the LHR area.
While EDI doesn't quite work for my purposes, I hope it is successful enough to lead to expansion and further competition.
ElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 620 posts, RR: 2 Reply 93, posted (5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7544 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85): With many of the new lightweight, thin-back seats you have more effective legroom at 30 inch pitch than with the older, bulkier seats at 32 inches. Comparing seat pitch alone is meaningless. Many major carriers have installed the lightweight seats. For example, the Recaro seats on LX A319/320/321s at 31 inch pitch have as much legroom than the previous seats at 33 or 34 inch pitch.
If that's the case, why don't they just install these 30" seats across their entire fleet? Why only on the LCC fleet if the passenger experience isn't really affected?
I think it is - the pitch clearly has an impact on recline - at 3", its half of what it is on TK (6"). I don't know what AC mainline recline is but I imagine its at least 5", so I remain unconvinced that the 30" pitch is meaningless or that it won't impact the quality. Like I've noted TK sells a far superior for a very similar price.
No matter how you spin it, this product for ~$1000 for YYZ-EDI is laughably bad.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85): . And a 7-abreast 767 is much better than the cramped 8-abreast of Air Transat A310s and 330s. In fact, 7-abreast on a 767 is the best widebody configuration of all and more than makes up for an inch or two of seat pitch.
You don't have to sell me on the 767 cabin, but I would take legroom over seatwidth any day of the week. But then again, I am not a particularly price sensitive traveller- I am happy to pay a premium here and there (just flew a very mediocre Y+ on VS on Monday). IF they can't price it right, and ~$1000 seems a bit high, TS will win. That said, I am interested to see how the IFE pans out. Its a step in the right direction I think.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85): How many other widebodies can operate at an 87% load factor before anyone has to sit in a middle seat?
Not sure what that has got to do with anything. Its like arguing that a 330 is better than a 777 because all passengers are only one seat away from the aisle. So what? While I like the 767 tremendously, I doubt a price sensitive traveller will give much heed to the fact that he might have a lower chance of sitting in a middle seat. It'll still be about price.
ElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 620 posts, RR: 2 Reply 95, posted (5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7553 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 84): I too am curious if this is going to work, as so far, other than the higher seating density, and the lower pilot wages, nothing else is cheaper. I fear it will end up like Zip.
No alchohol, less IFE weight (going for the streaming online option by the sounds of it), so there are some savings, I suppose. Everything else will presumably rely on lower labor costs.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 84): Last summer, Transat carried more Canadians across the Atlantic than Air Canada.
Does TS move all its widebodies (23?) onto TATL? How many does AC put? Surely those 777s bring some serious capacity? Or are TS flying fuller planes?
YYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 852 posts, RR: 0 Reply 99, posted (5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7375 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85): With many of the new lightweight, thin-back seats you have more effective legroom at 30 inch pitch than with the older, bulkier seats at 32 inches. Comparing seat pitch alone is meaningless. Many major carriers have installed the lightweight seats. For example, the Recaro seats on LX A319/320/321s at 31 inch pitch have as much legroom than the previous seats at 33 or 34 inch pitch. And the additional seats the reduced pitch permits generate a lot of additional revenue. And a 7-abreast 767 is much better than the cramped 8-abreast of Air Transat A310s and 330s. In fact, 7-abreast on a 767 is the best widebody configuration of all and more than makes up for an inch or two of seat pitch. How many other widebodies can operate at an 87% load factor before anyone has to sit in a middle seat?
I take your point, in theory... but are you suggesting that they are purchasing new, and slimmer seats for these 2 aircraft than the seats they use in the rest of the fleet? I'm guessing "no".
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 93): You don't have to sell me on the 767 cabin, but I would take legroom over seatwidth any day of the week
He beat me to it - I love the 767 config, but am particularly sensitive to cramped seat pitch. last time I flew on TS my knees were quite sore (and that was a 3hr + flight to CUN, not TATL - and not my decision, either). I personally will absolutely avoid any airline that packs the rows in like that.
chrisa330 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 617 posts, RR: 0 Reply 100, posted (5 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7300 times:
Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 99): I take your point, in theory... but are you suggesting that they are purchasing new, and slimmer seats for these 2 aircraft than the seats they use in the rest of the fleet? I'm guessing "no".
I'll bet yes.
"Air Canada-originating Boeing 767-300ER and Airbus A319 aircraft with stylish and
modern cabin interiors featuring innovative new seats that increase customer space and
maximize comfort."
Perhaps they can hire Sarah Palin to be the spokesmodel.
Quoting catII (Reply 34): Tango was never meant to be "low cost", as in overall lower operating costs. It was a different brand within a brand and was actually quite successful. It's now implemented on mainline fares, Tango basically means lowest fare. It allowed Air Canada to separate it's mainline brand (higher service) without alienating its mainline pax. When it integrated these fares within the mainline fare, they were able to sell the same brand (concept) within mainline.
Quoting catII (Reply 34): This at least allows them to compete on a lower cost structure and it does effectively differentiate mainline flying from the leisure division. I think you're going to see a fairly significant transformation of mainline with a different business class on the newer aircraft, premium economy etc. They will no longer have to mix the two concepts of leisure and business into one airline. This allows them to tailor to one or the other.
So, let me see if I understand. They started Tango as a separate brand to take low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, but then re-integrated it into the mainline as a pricing level. Now they are starting yet another brand to take the low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, and using the Tango brand for low-fare/leisure pricing on a product which is already supposed to be low-fare/leisure.
They are almost always going to mix leisure and business into the airline because the airline needs both to survive. Even products like the Rapidair service will rely somewhat on connections at YYZ & YUL to leisure destinations. The mix varies by route, but the concept still hold. And there's great potential for brand confusion when the ordinary clueless passenger booking a flight to ATH on aircanada.com ends up with a product comparable to the charter carriers rather than "normal" AC.
Quoting catII (Reply 34): Zip wasn't meant to fly out east, it was started with the same aircraft as WestJet (737-200) to compete with it on the same routes out west. This airline was discount, no frills, low cost. It was started while AC was in CCAA and was eventually absorbed by AC after they excited bankruptcy protection (CCAA).
Except obviously Zip failed to compete successfully.
Polot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1499 posts, RR: 0 Reply 102, posted (5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7268 times:
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 95): Does TS move all its widebodies (23?) onto TATL? How many does AC put? Surely those 777s bring some serious capacity? Or are TS flying fuller planes?
Keep in mind TS really packs them in. Their A330s only have 4-7 less seats than AC's 773s, with their A310s having more seats than most of AC's 763s.
yellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 5161 posts, RR: 2 Reply 103, posted (5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7213 times:
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 22): Stupid idea to start up this company but kudos on the scheme I think it is a lot nicer then the horrible toothpaste livery.
How come no one complains about SQ's attempt "Scoot"
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4281 posts, RR: 36 Reply 105, posted (5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7009 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 101): So, let me see if I understand. They started Tango as a separate brand to take low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, but then re-integrated it into the mainline as a pricing level. Now they are starting yet another brand to take the low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, and using the Tango brand for low-fare/leisure pricing on a product which is already supposed to be low-fare/leisure.
Actually, Tango started the whole a la carte pricing that is now the norm for most North American and European carriers. Don't want to eat? Don't buy it. You don't care where in the aircraft you sit? Then you don't need to buy seat selection. Don't want to check two bags? Then don't pay for it.
When Tango, (the airline) started, no one else in North America was doing this. All legacy carriers, (Air Canada included) were giving it away for free, meals included. What they discovered, is that this is what people want. They don't want to pay for a service they wont use, or don't think it is worth the price difference. So Tango ended, and that fare level and service level was incorporated into Air Canada. And ... as history shows, everyone is doing it now.
Quoting Polot (Reply 102): Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 95):
Does TS move all its widebodies (23?) onto TATL? How many does AC put? Surely those 777s bring some serious capacity? Or are TS flying fuller planes?
Keep in mind TS really packs them in. Their A330s only have 4-7 less seats than AC's 773s, with their A310s having more seats than most of AC's 763s.
Yes, when I said that Transat carried more Canadians across the Atlantic than Air Canada, that is just purely numbers. Air Canada's load factor last summer was around 90 %, so I can't imagine Transat having fuller airplanes. But also realize that if you compared total revenue ... you would see that AC still comes out ahead. With higher fare levels above the bottom, up and and including full J, it really comes down to a higher yield.
That would appear to be the purpose of Rouge, to address the bottom end of the scale.
Quoting Shuttle9juliet (Reply 86): Hi Longhauler, I am sure we were speaking about this the other day ...Strange it came up today.Will AC use existing flight deck or are they recruiting out with?
Yeah, I laughed when I saw EDI announced. I am going to guess that as more B767s are added to the Rouge fleet, GLA and MAN may see the maple leaf again, (or half of one, looking at the pictures).
Yes, the pilots are Air Canada pilots, who bid, or are force bid into the Rouge positions. Working conditions, pay and training standards are all different.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
They already to this anyway with the high density configured 763's, the two that are currently operating at mainline that will be transferred to rouge, as well as the 319's in a high density layout (I think they're former Mexicana birds). The truth is they need more aircraft like these in order to compete with the leaner charter airlines. Higher density seating and no frills.
Now they're taking the same aircraft, moving them into rouge, employing staff with lower wages and merging together as Air Canada Vacations with rouge being the main airline to do the flying; once this is up and running. Keep in mind, AC has something that AT doesn't, a fairly significant domestic and trans-border network that will allow for AC to connect people from all over. This is something Zoom didn't have.
It's much easier to do it this way than having different configured aircraft with no PTV's, no J class, higher density layout, no power-points at every seat, etc. This was causing a lot of confusion with people booking tickets and thinking they were going to be on a normally configured AC aircraft. This allows them to send airplanes to markets that don't currently support full service items that are currently at mainline. These are markets AC has served before, or would like to serve, but on a cost basis can't compete. There is a leisure market out there and in Canada it's a huge market. Mainline AC can't compete with the likes of the Canadian competition with their current structure. But, in order to compete on the other end, on routes that are higher yield, more business pax, etc. You need the other side of the spectrum as well.
Rouge may not reach up to 50 aircraft, but it just may work. They need to market this correctly and make it a clear differentiation between the two brands. When the competition is eating your lunch, you respond accordingly and this is AC's response.
A few people have mentioned in posts about AC's higher cost base. This is beginning to not be the case anymore as a lot of the new contracts with the unions have be re-negotiated, they're outsourcing a lot of maintenance, and a new pilot contract have helped reduce costs substantially by allowing AC pilots to do rouge flying on a different payscale. This, on top of a major pension overhaul, the end of mandatory retirement at age 60 for pilots, different scope terms in the new contract, moving the 175's to Sky Regional and the ability to use Sky Regional and other carriers to do domestic flying.
Recently, there was an article in the Post about Gregg Saretsky saying that WS and AC's costs have become much more inline, especially after the new pilot contract. Where there used to be a 30% difference between the two carriers, it's probably more like 10-15% now. That's a significant change and that margin will only be reducing as time goes on, WS gets bigger, their aircraft get older and AC continues to reduce costs with newer aircraft.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 108, posted (5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6856 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 107): Quoting brilondon (Reply 104):
Zip could not compete with the aircraft they had. Fuel inefficient 737-217's from CP's fleet.
As was Westjet ... the main competition at the time.
WS didn't take delivery of their first 737NG until 2001, 5 years after they started service. Some of their startup fleet of 737-200s had as many as 8 previous operators.
brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 3175 posts, RR: 1 Reply 109, posted (5 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6628 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 107): As was Westjet ... the main competition at the time.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 108): WS didn't take delivery of their first 737NG until 2001, 5 years after they started service. Some of their startup fleet of 737-200s had as many as 8 previous operators.
WS does not have the unionized workforce or the pensions that AC had to deal with at that time.
Hawaiian763 From Canada, joined May 2009, 239 posts, RR: 0 Reply 112, posted (5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6222 times:
And the odd's of Air Canada Rouge being a huge success is as likely as the Toronto Blue Jays winning the world series next year...
We've all seen what has happened to Air Canada's LCC's in the past, Tango lasted 3 years, Zip 2 years. If the chain continues, Rouge won't last very long
This is not true.Thomas Cook originally provided flights for Canadian Affair.The parent company of Air Transat bought out Canadian Affair.Canadian Affair ended their contract with Thomas Cook so they could exclusively use their in-house airline
YYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 852 posts, RR: 0 Reply 114, posted (5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5979 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 101): So, let me see if I understand. They started Tango as a separate brand to take low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, but then re-integrated it into the mainline as a pricing level. Now they are starting yet another brand to take the low-fare/leisure service out of the mainline, and using the Tango brand for low-fare/leisure pricing on a product which is already supposed to be low-fare/leisure.
Actually, your confusion is justified., if you do not know AC's fare structure.
The Tango "unbundelled" fare model was introduced for doemstic and transborder mainline operaitons, but international operations have alwyas maintained a more traditional fare structure, with fewer opportunities to pick and choose. e.g., one way flights are discouraged, points are awarded at the full level, meal and drink service is still largely offered...
To be honest, I've wondered why - I assumed it had more to do with international competition and/or bi-national pricing rules.
yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15989 posts, RR: 59 Reply 115, posted (5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5784 times:
Quoting lostsound (Reply 89): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 85):
How many Canadian carriers have tried and failed? Wardair, Canada 3000, Jetsgo, Greyhound Air, Roots Air, and the list goes on.
Yes, they were all poor business models. In order to survive in Canada you need a good product, a frequent flyer program, competitive frequency, and the lowest possible fare.
No, you just need low costs primarily, and a slow but steady capacity expansion that the market can absorb. All the above carriers deviated from this formula.
AC Rouge will need to keep its costs as low as the current LCC's in order to succeed.
Quoting catII (Reply 106): Recently, there was an article in the Post about Gregg Saretsky saying that WS and AC's costs have become much more inline, especially after the new pilot contract. Where there used to be a 30% difference between the two carriers, it's probably more like 10-15% now. That's a significant change and that margin will only be reducing as time goes on, WS gets bigger, their aircraft get older and AC continues to reduce costs with newer aircraft.
It could go the other way. As WS gains more revenue from its Encore operation (which will also feed WS mainline) and as WS continues to add efficient 738 aircraft, you might see the cost gap grow again.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 110): If Zip could not compete, it had nothing to do with the airplanes they were flying.
Agreed. Same aircraft type, same market. Different management. Zip's failure cannot be attributed to either the 732 or the market.
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
airontario From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 502 posts, RR: 1 Reply 116, posted (5 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5694 times:
Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 112): And the odd's of Air Canada Rouge being a huge success is as likely as the Toronto Blue Jays winning the world series next year...
Very possible?
I'd put my money on the Jays winning the World Series.
Quoting brilondon (Reply 104):
Zip could not compete with the aircraft they had. Fuel inefficient 737-217's from CP's fleet.
And we pointed out that in fact, WS was flying the same airplanes, in fact, some were exCP!
If Zip could not compete, it had nothing to do with the airplanes they were flying.
Two
OK so...
Quoting airontario (Reply 116): I'd put my money on the Jays winning the World Series.
Could happen, then so could the Tigers, the Yankees, Baltimore...Right now the Jays look good on paper but until see how the new parts fit together and then there is the health factor. But we really should continue this discussion on the non-av board
I don't disagree gooner about how both airlines operated for Canadian Affair or how Transat bought out the tour operator.
I will say that at the time the relationship ended I was booking a flight with Canadian Affair and the service representative told me that financial dealings with Thomas Cook had become problematic. How true that is I will never know.
Because we had mentioned about AC returning to GLA,EDI on another post, then the next day we got this thread!, so a bit strange when you have been discussing something, then it actually happens...That was all ..
robsaw From Canada, joined Dec 2008, 172 posts, RR: 0 Reply 121, posted (5 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5139 times:
Quoting catII (Reply 34): Zip was different, the FA's were non-unionized, the pilots were part of mainline (as Rouge will be, albeit on a lower pay scale). Zip wasn't meant to fly out east, it was started with the same aircraft as WestJet (737-200) to compete with it on the same routes out west. This airline was discount, no frills, low cost. It was started while AC was in CCAA and was eventually absorbed by AC after they excited bankruptcy protection (CCAA).
Zip was meant to compete with then almost entirely western Canada based Westjet using 737 aircraft acquired by AC as part of its takeover of Canadian Airlines International (remnants of CP, Pacific Western, Wardair, etc). It was NOT started while AC was in CCAA, it was FOLDED after AC went into CCAA. It was simply dissolved as part of AC's restructuring and the planes disposed of as they were old and divergent from the rest of the AC fleet.
robsaw From Canada, joined Dec 2008, 172 posts, RR: 0 Reply 122, posted (5 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5128 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 49): Glad to. Here's a couple:
1. The Federal Government intervened recently when AC unions were going to strike, preventing such a strike through legislation. This is a gross violation of the collective bargaining process, and deliberate favouritism towards AC mgmt by an interfering government. AC should be left to the marketplace to build or lose its fortune.
2. AC continues to operate lucrative international routes awarded to it when it was a Crown Corporation. These entrenched aurthorities represent an unfair market advantage overtly provided by a protective government, that continue to benefit AC today. AC's international route authority into all markets it operated to when it was privatized should be relinquished and put up to tender for all Cdn carriers. AC can of course bid on these routes fairly, along with WS, TS and anyone else. Then, and only then, will the Cdn industry be truly market driven, and a level playing field.
Nice try but those are opinion rhetoric not factual statements of gov't support of AC. Many carriers, even in the US, have legacy international route authorities left over from the days of highly regulated air travel. AC doesn't get gov't money and is also contrained by higher-costs due to language, headquarters, maintenance, and operational base requirements it must maintain as part of the privatization act.
Kaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 24 Reply 124, posted (5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4465 times:
Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 112): We've all seen what has happened to Air Canada's LCC's in the past, Tango lasted 3 years, Zip 2 years.
Have you read any of the other posts in this thread?
Tango was primarily a fare structure, and continues to exist (you could even see it for yourself if you take a look at the AC reservations site).
Zip was an attempt to use orphan aircraft inherited from CP. It was dissolved as part of AC's CCAA restructuring. I don't think anyone outside AC management knows whether it was losing money or not during the time it existed.
YVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2091 posts, RR: 0 Reply 126, posted (4 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3473 times:
Does anyone know / guess which terminal and gates they will use in YYZ? My family is looking at EDI-YYZ-YVR and I am wondering if immigration will be done in YYZ, or if they will go through a transit area and clear in YVR?
Basically want a guesstimate as to how much connection time would be needed in YYZ for booking the connecting YVR flight...
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 127, posted (4 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3514 times:
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 126): Does anyone know / guess which terminal and gates they will use in YYZ? My family is looking at EDI-YYZ-YVR and I am wondering if immigration will be done in YYZ, or if they will go through a transit area and clear in YVR?
T1 at YYZ as for all other AC flights, and the standard connecting times. On flights to Canada involving domestic connections you always clear customs/immigration at the first point of arrival in Canada. AC shows 1 hr. 15 min. minimum connecting time at YYZ from an international to a domestic flight. It's 1 hour in the other direction since there's no customs/immigration outbound from Canada (except for preclearance to the U.S.).
The AC website has the new EDI flights and fares/connections now available for sale.
aerecosse From UK - Scotland, joined Mar 2009, 83 posts, RR: 0 Reply 128, posted (4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3154 times:
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 59): Great for us anyway, my wifes family is from Fife so saves backtracking to AMS, paying crazy BA fares via LHR or the lovely drive to GLA to get on TS which is usually one flight per week so not too flexible. I suppose VS is now an option.
Looking at the TS website it shows flights between YYZ & GLA are year round and daily between 1 May - 31 Oct added to that they also offer flights to YYC & YVR between May and Oct from GLA too. You can even find 3 TS flights departing from GLA to Canada within hours of each other....... slightly more frequently than twice weekly from EDI between July & the start of October..... but wishing it every success!
YVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2091 posts, RR: 0 Reply 129, posted (4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3130 times:
Quoting aerecosse (Reply 128): Looking at the TS website it shows flights between GLA are year round and daily between 1 May - 31 Oct added to that they also offer flights to YYC & YVR between May and Oct from GLA too. You can even find 3 TS flights departing from GLA to Canada within hours of each other....... slightly more frequently than twice weekly from EDI between July & the start of October..... but wishing it every success!
TS (Canadian Affair) are cheaper than Rouge / AC too, for a direct flight to YVR its a no brainer. The price war has begun I guess, hope both airlines survive it.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 127): T1 at AC flights, and the standard connecting times. On flights to Canada involving domestic connections you always clear customs/immigration at the first point of arrival in Canada. AC shows 1 hr. 15 min. minimum connecting time at
rikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1464 posts, RR: 2 Reply 131, posted (4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2925 times:
I put in an official entry for "Voila!"... *sigh*
The branding of "Rouge" is definitely going to be mocked, as is already happening in this thread. The tail livery pretty much obliverates the modern/current version of the roundel, and it is interesting to see burgundy return to the colour pallet...
How many LCC within an airline have been tried (AC notwithstanding) now, worldwide...and how many have been successful long term?
Cessna 172; King Air 100; Twin Otter; SAAB 340; Dash 7; Dash 8-100,-200,-300,-400; CRJ-200,700,900; ERJ-170; F-28; DC 9-
Not initially. It was an LCC with a dedicated fleet, brand and colour scheme. Just like Rouge/Lipstick. Only after the Tango LCC concept failed, did AC keep the Tango name alive in a fare structure.
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 124): Zip was an attempt to use orphan aircraft inherited from CP.
I think it was the other way around. AC wanted to complete against the upstart WS and chose the 732 as the "weapon" so to speak. They could have chosen the DC-9-30, A320.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 130): Rouge is starting with two B767s, when they have 20 B767s which is planned
It's hard to believe they will reach 20 767's. That would represent a huge capacity increase in the leisure market. Given than TS has trouble making $ with its lower cost structure in this market, it's hard to see how Lipstick can with its higher cost structure AND a huge capacity increase into this market (which will drive yields down even further).
Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 131): How many LCC within an airline have been tried (AC notwithstanding) now, worldwide...and how many have been successful long term?
Dozens. Zero.
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4281 posts, RR: 36 Reply 133, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2688 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 132): It's hard to believe they will reach 20 767's. That would represent a huge capacity increase in the leisure market. Given than TS has trouble making $ with its lower cost structure in this market
I agree. The only way I can see it happening is if something like Jetstar occurs where the LCC starts taking over a lot of mainline flying as a preference to "price" over "quality" is displayed.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 132): Only after the Tango LCC concept failed, did AC keep the Tango name alive in a fare structure.
I wouldn't say Tango failed, as in my opinion Air Canada IS Tango. The passenger preference for a la carte pricing, which at the time was only offered by Tango in North America, became the now norm for North American airlines.
One of the attributes of Tango, that at the time was impossible on any other airline was being able to combine fare levels on one trip. I recently spoke with a businessman who stated that was the best change in aviation in 20 years! He would buy the lowest fare level for his outbound trip, as he was certain what would not change, but buy a higher level allowing changes for the return.
After September 11, when Legacy carriers were faced with the requirement to change the way they do business, I recall Don Carty of AA saying that the Tango concept was the future of Economy travel in North America. Turns out he was right.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15989 posts, RR: 59 Reply 134, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2640 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 133): Quoting yyz717 (Reply 132):
Only after the Tango LCC concept failed, did AC keep the Tango name alive in a fare structure.
I wouldn't say Tango failed, as in my opinion Air Canada IS Tango.
But Tango was just a common name for 2 completely different concepts.
The first Tango was a dedicated LCC within an airline, which definitely failed (otherwise, it would still be around).
The second Tango was/is a low-end fare structure, with arguable origins in the first Tango. This lives on to this day.
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3857 posts, RR: 13 Reply 135, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2556 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 133): I wouldn't say Tango failed, as in my opinion Air Canada IS Tango. The passenger preference for a la carte pricing, which at the time was only offered by Tango in North America, became the now norm for North American airlines.
One of the attributes of Tango, that at the time was impossible on any other airline was being able to combine fare levels on one trip. I recently spoke with a businessman who stated that was the best change in aviation in 20 years! He would buy the lowest fare level for his outbound trip, as he was certain what would not change, but buy a higher level allowing changes for the return.
After September 11, when Legacy carriers were faced with the requirement to change the way they do business, I recall Don Carty of AA saying that the Tango concept was the future of Economy travel in North America. Turns out he was right.
All valid points, Longhauler, underscoring that those actually IN the business know far more than some others. As well, as you have previously pointed out, Zip was not necessarily a failure, but had to go as one of the CCAA outcomes.
I myself made use of the Tango brand and found it completely OK expecting an LCC-type in flight service. I was not disappointed. Some odd routings, mind you, one was YOW-YQG-YWG. But I got there. As for Zip, had it been allowed to live and migrated to an all-Y 319 or 320 platform, who knows.
Hopefully Rouge will be a success. But the barriers to entry are fairly substantial. AC should not put unlimited resources into it.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4281 posts, RR: 36 Reply 136, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2544 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 134): But Tango was just a common name for 2 completely different concepts.
No, the concepts were the same ... the a la carte pricing, made only possible with a powerful website. That concept was completely different from Air Canada mainline, (and every other airline in North America). When it was decided to make all of Air Canada's North American Economy product a la carte, then the 'airline within an airline' became superfluous.
Then that Tango brand name was offered on mainline Air Canada aircraft, carrying over the came concept. The only difference between Tango and Air Canada mainline is that the higher fare levels, up to and including Executive Class were now offered.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15989 posts, RR: 59 Reply 137, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2529 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 136): Quoting yyz717 (Reply 134):
But Tango was just a common name for 2 completely different concepts.
No, the concepts were the same ... the a la carte pricing, made only possible with a powerful website.
The concepts were not the same. They were completely different. Tango #1 was a small, dedicated fleet of A320s and 732's with its own brand, schedules and colour scheme in all Y seating with low fares.
Tango #2 (the current tango) is simply a fare type on all of AC mainline.
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4281 posts, RR: 36 Reply 138, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2521 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 137): The concepts were not the same. They were completely different. Tango #1 was a small, dedicated fleet of A320s and 732's with its own brand, schedules and colour scheme in all Y seating with low fares.
I think you are missing my point. With the invention of the Tango concept, came a passenger preference for that type of pricing and flying. The decision had to be made .... either expand the Tango fleet (as it WAS popular), or make every flight a Tango flight and incorporate it into Air Canada.
That is why I feel Tango was a success, as it developed a new product which became the base for every airline in North America today.
It is a lot like when CP had F/J only aircraft crossing the country. It was a success. Air Canada had to respond by either doing the same, with a dedicated fleet of F/J aircraft to meet the demand ... or make a domestic J product to compete. That was the start of the domestic Executive Class product, incorporated into the Air Canada fleet.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 139, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2345 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 138): It is a lot like when CP had F/J only aircraft crossing the country. It was a success.
Assume you're referring to the initial Attaché product using 737s with only F and J seating. It wasn't a success to the best of my memory. It was unprofitable and was quickly dropped. Many flights operated with very low load factors. There just wan't enough demand for that type of product even on the prime business routes.
stuYYZ From Canada, joined Jul 2011, 5 posts, RR: 0 Reply 140, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2278 times:
MASTER PLAN
I thought this was all part of the master plan. Start a discount airline with no pension or legacy costs, shift over some assets, declare bankruptcy, and then Crossair, oops i mean Rouge, can buy some of those assets including foreign based staff, rename itself Air Canada International, and we're off an running minus the legacy issues, with nice new livery to boot.....Air Canada unions have been predicting this for several years.....
BOACCunard From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0 Reply 141, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2260 times:
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4281 posts, RR: 36 Reply 142, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2213 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 139): Assume you're referring to the initial Attaché product using 737s with only F and J seating. It wasn't a success to the best of my memory.
I think that is what it was called. Using -200s and -300s? I had heard it was successful and was dropped when AC matched it with Executive Class, then CP responded with the J/Y configuration.
Then there was "The Company Jet", same thing, a premium product of CPs, YYZ-YUL.
Quoting stuYYZ (Reply 140): Start a discount airline with no pension or legacy costs
The only thing cheaper with respect to costs are the pilot hourly wage. Every other cost is the same as mainline, including pensions! Ironically enough, looking at the employee groups within Air Canada, only the pilot costs were on par with most competitors. The other employee groups, which are much higher than industry standard cost, remain unchanged!
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 143, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2193 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 142): I think that is what it was called. Using -200s and -300s? I had heard it was successful and was dropped when AC matched it with Executive Class, then CP responded with the J/Y configuration.
Then there was "The Company Jet", same thing, a premium product of CPs, YUL.
That was even less successful (and shorter-lived) than Attaché. Regardless of the product it was hard to compete with AC's much higher frequency on a route like Toronto-Montreal.
yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15989 posts, RR: 59 Reply 144, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2149 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 139): Assume you're referring to the initial Attach
[quote=longhauler,reply=142]Reply 142, posted Sun Dec 30 2012 21:27:47 your local time (30 minutes 5 secs ago) and read 48 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 139):
Assume you're referring to the initial Attaché product using 737s with only F and J seating. It wasn't a success to the best of my memory.
I think that is what it was called. Using -200s and -300s?
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 143): That was even less successful (and shorter-lived) than Attaché.
Of CP's initial 3 733's delivered in early 1985, 2 were in the Attache colour scheme, and the 3rd in the usual orange CP livery which well suited the 733, and being the only one in this scheme, was notoriously hard to spot. The Attache colour scheme was terrible
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
SpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 412 posts, RR: 0 Reply 145, posted (4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1814 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 144): Of CP's initial 3 733's delivered in early 1985, 2 were in the Attache colour scheme, and the 3rd in the usual orange CP livery which well suited the 733, and being the only one in this scheme, was notoriously hard to spot. The Attache colour scheme was terrible
I wouldn't say terrible, but of course the CP Air livery was sharper. That's why I also like the new Rouge livery.
Sponsor Message: 
Printer friendly format 
From Canada, joined May 2012, 161 posts, 
From Puerto Rico, joined Nov 2005, 844 posts, 
From Finland, joined Jul 2012, 187 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 1349 posts, 
From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15730 posts, 
From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 684 posts, 
From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 206 posts, 
From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 11953 posts, 
From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5430 posts, 
From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2515 posts, 
From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1262 posts, 
From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 1962 posts, 
From UK - Wales, joined Nov 2001, 1040 posts, 
From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Sep 2000, 1983 posts, 
From Italy, joined Nov 2010, 208 posts, 
From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1084 posts, 
From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, 
From France, joined Jun 2006, 92 posts, 
Particularly the new product at TS is actually not bad.
From Philippines, joined Nov 2012, 101 posts, 
From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 4917 posts, 
From UK - Scotland, joined Sep 2001, 4990 posts, 
From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 1519 posts, 
