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Allegiant Announces Purchase Of A320s  
User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5804 posts, RR: 14
Posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 18019 times:

Allegiant announced this morning it plans to purchase up to 9 A320s previously operated by Iberia. Seven aircraft are planned for 2013 and two for 2014. Average age is 12 years.

The first A320 is expected to enter service in the third quarter of 2013 with all nine aircraft in service by the end of 2014. That first A320 aircraft is only a few months after Allegiant's first A319 enters service.

These are growth aircraft, no additional MD retirements are planned at this time.

http://ir.allegiantair.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=727967


"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineclemsonaj From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 17927 times:

Awesome news! Congrats to Allegiant! Is there any indication of possible longer routes with these aircraft?

User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1539 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 17628 times:
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Delta and Allegiant have figured out the great buys out there in quality used aircraft---sad that other airlines are not as smart

User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5804 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 17538 times:

Quoting clemsonaj (Reply 1):
Is there any indication of possible longer routes with these aircraft?

No official word but I expect a mix of new longer flights and slightly higher seat capacity flights on some existing routes.

They do indicate there will be no major jump in 2013 planned capacity as they will reduce some MD utilization to use these aircraft. But again no MD retirements due to the purchase.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 2):
Delta and Allegiant have figured out the great buys out there in quality used aircraft---sad that other airlines are not as smart

Exactly why G4 says they are purchasing these aircraft. From the press release:

Quote:
"These transactions represent a tremendous opportunity to purchase a sizeable fleet of sister-ships with CFM powered engines, the same engine type as our A319s, at very attractive prices. Finding up to nine aircraft of this pedigree available for purchase is unusual in our experience. Historically it has been difficult to find owners willing to sell quality assets at this point in their life cycle. Our cash reserves and strong balance sheet continue to provide us a unique ability in the used aircraft space to move on these attractive opportunities."



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9641 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 17539 times:

12 year old A320s aren't that bad. I wonder what the purchase price is for them. An airline like Allegiant which potentially could go after a significant number of A319s and A320s could push up the used price of these airplanes. As A320s age and the fleet grows, the used prices have been falling significantly.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3751 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 17319 times:

Quoting clemsonaj (Reply 1):
Is there any indication of possible longer routes with these aircraft?

I could see longer LAS/AZA routes than the current longest ones from SBN (FWA-LAS/AZA, we're looking at you). I could also see more Plains state flying from SFB, along with basing a few at PGD to support their growing ops there.

But since the A320s will operate with 177 seats (eleven more than most G4 MD-80s), I also see these planes on existing routes where the A319 (156 seats) is too small, the MD-80 has range issues, and the 757 is too big. And many G4 routes are 95%+ LFs, so between that and the superior fuel burn of the A320 family, they can make even more money with an A320 than with an MD-80. I wouldn't even rule out a small fleet of A321s for G4's higher-frequency routes.

I also noticed that these ex-IB birds are CFM-powered like the A319s. My gut feeling is that G4 will only be looking for CFM A32x from now on, even if IAE birds are cheaper, to save on MX costs.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1576 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 17273 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 5):
I also noticed that these ex-IB birds are CFM-powered like the A319s. My gut feeling is that G4 will only be looking for CFM A32x from now on, even if IAE birds are cheaper, to save on MX costs.

I never knew that - what makes IAE birds cheaper? I thought the V2500's were the better engine on the 320.


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1796 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 17273 times:
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I don't see there being many folks willing to sell 321's on the cheap in the near term. G4 will keep their eyes open for opportunities for CFM powered 320's and will phase out the MD-80's once they have enough 319/320's in-house. The fuel burn differences are too large to ignore.

User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3751 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 17212 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 6):
I never knew that - what makes IAE birds cheaper? I thought the V2500's were the better engine on the 320.

I wasn't saying that IAE A32x are cheaper, nor do I know A32x prices. All I was saying was that G4 will stick to buying CFM A32x for fleet commonality even if prices on the used market for IAE A32x are lower at the time of purchase.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1576 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 17062 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 8):
I wasn't saying that IAE A32x are cheaper, nor do I know A32x prices. All I was saying was that G4 will stick to buying CFM A32x for fleet commonality even if prices on the used market for IAE A32x are lower at the time of purchase.

Ah, my mistake. Once I read that again I see what you're saying there.


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3751 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 16857 times:

Quoting f16arm (Reply 9):

How long till the frontier guys hijack this thread as more "proof" the Allegiant is going to buy frontier?   

Well, both use CFM engines on their A32x, so there might be a grain of truth (but not much, IMO)...



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineB757forever From United States of America, joined May 2010, 401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 15831 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 6):
I never knew that - what makes IAE birds cheaper? I thought the V2500's were the better engine on the 320

When getting into heavy engine overhaul, the CFM is much cheaper on average than the IAE. There are also more vendors capable of overhauling a CFM than the IAE, which may affect the cost.


User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1576 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 15805 times:

Quoting B757forever (Reply 12):
When getting into heavy engine overhaul, the CFM is much cheaper on average than the IAE. There are also more vendors capable of overhauling a CFM than the IAE, which may affect the cost.

That would make sense, and would stand to reason given the 3-spool Rolls DNA of an IAE powerplant.


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9641 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 15193 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 8):

I wasn't saying that IAE A32x are cheaper, nor do I know A32x prices. All I was saying was that G4 will stick to buying CFM A32x for fleet commonality even if prices on the used market for IAE A32x are lower at the time of purchase.

G4 has a tendency to buy used engines and swap engines a lot to save on overhaul expenses. G4 outsources its engine maintenance and the overhauls that are done, so it wouldn't surprise me if they don't care what engine is on the airplane as long as they can find someone to contract the maintenance to. I wouldn't be surprised to see them get into a power by the hour agreement which would completely nullify the benefit of commonality.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinedbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 14994 times:

Smart move. As the A320NEO and 737MAX start getting delivered, several used, still relatively efficient A320s and B737NGs will become available on the second hand market as airlines phase them out for the newer models. They probably won't be as cheap as G4 has been able to get the MD-80s but still better than buying brand new (and more efficient than what they've got).

User currently offlineBlueBus From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 14281 times:

Isn't this a bit risky?

I mean they were doing just fine with one aircraft type.

Then they added the 757.

Then the A319.

Now the A320.

Isn't that quite a bit of risk to go from one a/c type to 3-4? Pilot training. Crew training. Heck, even safety cards being printed: all add expense.


User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1539 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 14209 times:
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Quoting BlueBus (Reply 17):
Crew training. Heck, even safety cards being printed: all add expense.

All made very economical due to the cheap purchase price of the used aircraft!!


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4599 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days ago) and read 13840 times:

Quoting BlueBus (Reply 17):
Isn't that quite a bit of risk to go from one a/c type to 3-4? Pilot training. Crew training. Heck, even safety cards being printed: all add expense.

Until you go back and realize that this is a Travel Company that happens to own an airline. Not an airline that happens to own a travel company. Their first business is selling packages to vacation destinations. Instead of chartering aircraft they do it themselves. It almost reminds me a bit of Ambassadair some.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6385 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days ago) and read 13780 times:

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 4):
12 year old A320s aren't that bad. I wonder what the purchase price is for them. An airline like Allegiant which potentially could go after a significant number of A319s and A320s could push up the used price of these airplanes. As A320s age and the fleet grows, the used prices have been falling significantly.

The big fall in the price of used A320's is coming-just wait until Airbus fields the 320NEO in significant quantities  



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13124 posts, RR: 100
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 11895 times:
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Wow... This early a purchase surprised me. I expected A320s after the A319s. But a purchase decision in 2014 or 2015, not end of 2012!   

Quoting FATFlyer (Thread starter):
Allegiant announced this morning it plans to purchase up to 9 A320s previously operated by Iberia.

Is there any reason these frames would be lower cost?

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 3):
But again no MD retirements due to the purchase.

Interesting... very interesting.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 4):
As A320s age and the fleet grows, the used prices have been falling significantly.

   There will be examples that meet Allergiant's needs. I expected them to hold off until the sharklets and NEO pushed down prices further... but a good deal is a good deal.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 8):
All I was saying was that G4 will stick to buying CFM A32x for fleet commonality even if prices on the used market for IAE A32x are lower at the time of purchase.

I agree with your premise. However, some have found, if they buy enough of each, that operating both engine types is not that much higher an expense. For Allergiant, I think they are buying low cost airframes, as they did with the MD-80s, so most likely they will just be patient.

Quoting BlueBus (Reply 17):
Isn't this a bit risky?
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 20):
The big fall in the price of used A320's is coming-just wait until Airbus fields the 320NEO in significant quantities

   As will the hit in the price of used 733s, 73Gs, and even 737-800s. A step change is coming down the pipe between sharklets/Boeing's new winglets and the new engines.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2353 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11608 times:

Interesting move by G4 and very opportunistic, but what does this say about IB? One man's pain is another man's gain...

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 20):
The big fall in the price of used A320's is coming-just wait until Airbus fields the 320NEO in significant quantities
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21):
As will the hit in the price of used 733s, 73Gs, and even 737-800s.

It is inevitable that used prices will fall after the NEO & MAX EIS. But the reality is it will take a few years before an abundance of viable 737NG/A320s flood the used market causing prices to plummet dramatically.

Initially, you will see lots of 20+ year old A320s hit the market. But many will likely go right to the scrapyard or to 2nd and 3rd world carriers, desperate to retire their 5-10 734s or MD-81s. In another words, a 1995 build A320 will have little value on the used market in 2018 for legacy/flagship carriers. Additionally, I think most MAX/NEO NBs will first supplement existing fleets - rather than kick-off complete fleet renewal plans - as was the case with the 737NG. Remember, generally speaking the 737NG didn't lead to the phaseout of most classics until the 2000s.



There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
User currently offlineMLI717fan From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 248 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11610 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
Wow... This early a purchase surprised me. I expected A320s after the A319s. But a purchase decision in 2014 or 2015, not end of 2012!

I initially agreed with you, it does seem like G4 has been slowing their growth somewhat. Yes, the stats are up over last year, but I think a good chunk of that is due to their MD-80 refit. They added Hawaii this year, made OAK a focus city, and did some expansion at PDG, but I think they can do quite a bit more. A lot of the older G4 stations that traditionally had more than 2x weekly service to certain destinations haven't seen as much seasonal expansion as they used to. I guess what I'm trying to say is that yes, they are adding new markets, but this has come at some expense of frequency to existing markets.

2013 will be an interesting year, with these new planes we will see exciting new things. I think we will also see a reduction in flying to older G4 stations that got lucky enough to have WN keep them after the FL transition. G4 will almost always beat WN on price, but not planning your vacation around the flights has its bonuses too.


User currently offlineIDAWA From Italy, joined Aug 2004, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10345 times:

I hope they got a REALLY low price for these A320s: while a 12-year old MD-80 has potentially 20 more years of service ahead of it, a 12-year-old A320 will likely hit the scrapheap in less than 10 years.

DC-9s/MD-80s were built to last forever, while A320s start to be "old" at 15 and most of them never reach the age of 20, the reason being complicated avionics to be frequently updated, easy corrosion, and similar.



Flown on: 319, 320, 321, 340, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC9, D10, M11, M80, 146, EM2, BEH, CRJ, DH8, L4T.
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1576 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10062 times:

Quoting IDAWA (Reply 22):

True, but the economics of even an older 320 vs. any Mad Dog that isn't an MD-90 or 717 are WAY better. Now, I would be curious to know how similar-vintage 320s and MD-90s stack up though - that could be an interesting comparison (just operating costs, not taking into account current prices).


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10044 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 7):
I don't see there being many folks willing to sell 321's on the cheap in the near term. G4 will keep their eyes open for opportunities for CFM powered 320's and will phase out the MD-80's once they have enough 319/320's in-house. The fuel burn differences are too large to ignore
Quoting dbo861 (Reply 14):
Smart move.

Indeed, as the 319's, 320's and maybe 321's, are showing up on the used market G4 can capture some decent frames for much less than new, and the fuel burn will pay for this fleet changeover in time.

Quoting BlueBus (Reply 15):
Isn't this a bit risky?

I mean they were doing just fine with one aircraft type.

Then they added the 757.

Then the A319.

Now the A320.

Isn't that quite a bit of risk to go from one a/c type to 3-4? Pilot training. Crew training. Heck, even safety cards being printed: all add expense.

Riskier staying with a rapidly aging M80 fleet? As was stated above, this is a very smart move on G4's part, the 319's and 320's are likely coming at a good price, the frames likely have 10-20 years left on them, and they are about the same capacity as their M80's. Since G4 has low utilization, these 319, 320 and maybe even 321 aircraft will likely last longer with G4 than any other carrier. With fuel costs as they are, 'd expect these birds will pay for themselves. G4 was going to have to do something with their aging M80's, this is a well thought out financial move by G4 and it seems solid.

Once they go through the initial cost of acquisition, refurbishment to G4 standards, crew re-training on a new type, this will be a big savings on the books for G4. They may take some less than stellar quarters with the aforementioned one time costs, but this will help G4 move into the next decade with a type that will continue to pop up on the used market many many times over, there have been many 32X family aircraft made, the NEO will surely drop the price of a used 320 down further and further.

Since this swap over to the 319's came before any of the latest rumors of a F9 merger, I think it would be very unlikely that the two have anything whatsoever to do with each other, f it happened ever, the common fleet would be nothing more than a happy coincidence.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
25 clydenairways : I'm sorry but this is Bull. While it's true that MD's are built like tanks. The reason you A320's being scrapped early is a financial decision rather
26 bennett123 : I keep hearing how well built the DC9/MD80 were, which I do not doubt. However, if it was a better plane than the B737/A320, then surely it would stil
27 gsoflyer : This could help them get the east coast into Las Vegas in Knoxville, Greenville, Greensboro type markets which I think they wanted but couldn't do bef
28 gsoflyer : Yeah but, quality has little to do with the MD-80/DC9. The 737 was built for nearly a decade before the MD-80 was available. That meant that quite a f
29 superjeff : Not sure I would agree (sticking my 2 cents worth in). The 737 came out several years after the DC9, and, after all, the MD80 is a DC9 (that's how it
30 ICEBIRD757 : Don't forget how much quieter the A320 family is over the MD-80 family. That works well into airports like LGB that monitors the noise closely.
31 IDAWA : Newer A320s feature WAY different engines and avionics vs. the older ones, this reduces interchangeability of parts very much. If you talk about a 20
32 YNGguins : That is definitely to be expected. The success of the Plattsburgh to Vegas route which launched this week should prove beneficial with the east coast
33 N1120A : Perhaps a little, but remember that Ambassadair turned into ATA. Well, remember that the 737's builder got the better of a merger with the MD80's mak
34 FalconKutscher : OS, known for always buying new aircraft so far, took former D-ALTF; (OE-LTV, D-ALTF) A320-214 MSN 1553 from AB lately. Will soon be OE-LBJ...
35 Post contains images ouboy79 : That's why I said Ambassadair and not ATA.
36 N908AW : Not as risky as it is to stick to an aging fleet that can't do thinks like Hawaii and coast-to-coast The A319/320s are (generally) newer, they are qu
37 Post contains images lightsaber : But the price must be low enough for G4 to make a decent ROI with their low utilization. Agreed. Their low utilization will keep the birds going unti
38 Post contains images KELPkid : You mean like Champion Air did with the 727's
39 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : That's not completely true. It is more of a case by case situation. DL, for instance, will presumably retire the majority of their existing A320 flee
40 ouboy79 : Champion went out the right way though. No bankruptcy or anything. Just a very orderly and simple pull down of the company.
41 RWA380 : The major reason I am not buying $200.00 r/t tickets from EUG to HNL for next spring, especially after my one and only NK experience!
42 OB1504 : How many passengers does G4 want to fly in their A320s? NK manages to fit 178 into theirs at 28 inches of seat pitch throughout all but four rows.
43 RWA380 : And based upon my personal experience only, a most horrid and tortureous experience, I don't feel a 5+ hour flight to Hawaii on G4 would be too much
44 Post contains links Roseflyer : The MD-80 doesn't have the same reliability as the DC-9, but yes the A320 has the lowest design life of any of the narrowbodies in current production
45 FWAERJ : As stated earlier on this thread, G4 plans on fitting 177 seats in the A320 and 156 in the A319, which means 28" pitch on the A319 and 29" pitch on t
46 TrijetsRMissed : Perhaps you mean durability, as nothing in the document provided speaks to the MD-80's inferior reliability.
47 N1120A : 156 seats on the A319 will require 2 overwing exits, which I think only Easyjet has ordered. Seems like a rather costly addition, not to mention the
48 FWAERJ : G4's A319s are coming from EasyJet and Cebu Pacific, both of which ordered the dual overwing exit option. Skybus had a handful of A319s with that opt
49 Aquila3 : It seems to me a little broad statement. Maybe I do not understand, but I wonder how could Airbus sell some of them 20 years ago, without giving them
50 MLI717fan : G4 had slim seats and moved the seat pocket to above the table tray when I flew on them. It was actually significantly more comfortable than I expect
51 TrijetsRMissed : I'm not sure I understand your point, but the specific areas I listed are true. A broad statement would be "overall operating costs," no? To help cla
52 Post contains links and images egnr : A handful of airlines have ordered (or at least been first operator of) A319s with twin overwing exits: Germanwings (only twin overwing exit A319 ope
53 GSPSPOT : I had the same exact experience and reaction! Wish other airlines would do this! But back to the subject of this thread, I sure do hope G4 will see f
54 FWAERJ : Same goes for FWA-LAS. The big reason besides fuel that they dropped it in the first place (cutthroat competition down I-69 at IND) is no more now th
55 YNGguins : We will be seeing routes from the Great Lakes and East Coast to LAS in due time. I would guess in 3Q or 4Q of 2013. Plattsburgh to LAS is doing very
56 Deltal1011man : I don't think any of the US airlines with IAE engines do them in house? Delta does do the CFM56-3/5/7 in house for those that don't know but the IAE
57 AWACSooner : I'm curious to see if G4 configures them like NK...no recline and 28" pitch.
58 FWAERJ : All of G4's planes either have or will be converted to no-recline seats. G4 seems to like the TIMCO 3100, as that's what they've been using in their
59 Post contains images AWACSooner : No thanks...that's a tad too tight for me.
60 RWA380 : If you can call those few big seats up front on NK another class, How much pitch does G4 offer on their 757's? I thought it wasn't, then I flew NK, n
61 Post contains links Devilfish : This could be a factor..... http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...319-deal-with-cebu-pacific-380574/ Quote: "Allegiant Air has cancelled its deal to
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