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LOT 787 Gone Tech?  
User currently offlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 788 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 24975 times:

Seen reports that todays LO787 due at LHR didn't happen and also tomorrow's due flight won't be the 787 either....  

98 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedelta777jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1228 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 24809 times:

Last week I was supposed to fly MUC-WAW and the flight was cancellt last minute and replaced by an aging 734 with a 3 hour delay !


Fly easyJet
User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 24669 times:

LOT's SP-LRA has been grounded due to mechanical problems/damage to the landing gear. This is following problems with door seals requiring to operate at low altitudes (FL240) and problems with electronics for which it was previously grounded.

It appears that LOT is taking a very safe and cautious approach to all these teething problems, making sure that they fully understand what is happening with the plane and that all issues are fixed before the plane is airborne again.

The flip side is that three or so days of flights have been cancelled, and there are many enthusiasts who booked these flights to experience B788 but flew on a B734 instead.

The good news is that the second B788, SP-LRB should land at WAW at 3:00 pm today ...

[Edited 2012-12-21 04:09:28]

User currently offlinegr09 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2008, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24511 times:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 2):
It appears that LOT is taking a very safe and cautious approach to all these teething problems, making sure that they fully understand what is happening with the plane and that all issue are fixed before the plane is airborne again.

I read from a few people who already had the pleasure that the landings at WAW are very rough. Might this be related to the landing gear issue or is there some other type of problem?


User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24393 times:

Quoting gr09 (Reply 3):

The roughest landings i know have all been in India, and very fast as well.


User currently offlineushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2963 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24150 times:

Well, I guess I did luck out that I didn't/don't have time on the dates where they scheduled their BRU-WAW flights on the Dreamliner. Money well saved.


Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 24110 times:

Sounds like they have some teething problem which is totally normal and I see it as good behavior of LOT to investigate any problems thoroughly. I remember when AY received the E-jets, the start went surprisingly smoothly, until the winter arrived!  

okAY


User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 24106 times:

Quoting gr09 (Reply 3):
the landings at WAW are very rough.

Actually, one of the Polish papers or aviation sites, forgot which, claims that the landing gear problem came up after a rough landing of the flight from PRG at WAW on Tuesday. The next flight to MUC was cancelled and the aircraft has been out of service since.

This is strange. These initial B787 flights are relatively light, with a cap of 175 passengers, not even close to MLW. The weather was OK. In addition, if Polish pilots can successfully land a B767 w 230+ people on board at WAW without landing gear as it was demonstrated last year by Captain Wrona, I am not sure what can be so different with a B787 (?)


User currently offlinegr09 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2008, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 23881 times:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 7):
Actually, one of the Polish papers or aviation sites, forgot which, claims that the landing gear problem came up after a rough landing of the flight from PRG at WAW on Tuesday. The next flight to MUC was cancelled and the aircraft has been out of service since.

On a Czech forum they mentioned Wednesday. If I'm not mistaken, they also said that after that landing LOT didn't use a jetway but the plane was parked on a remote stand straight away.


User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 23674 times:

Quoting gr09 (Reply 8):
On a Czech forum they mentioned Wednesday

Lost track of time ... You are right, it was Wednesday.


User currently offlineThomasCook From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 793 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 23632 times:

I flew WAW-PRG on 14/12 and PRG-WAW on 16/12 and have to say that both landings where quite probably the smoothest i've ever encountered! Both flights also seamless!

ThomasCook



A380 Crew
User currently offlineemp From Austria, joined Jul 2009, 7 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 23598 times:

That's really disappointing, I should be sitting inside the 787 in a few hours - flight is now "downgraded" to a 737      

User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3506 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 23608 times:

In the meantime the second 787 has just landed at WAW airport.

User currently offlinedebonair From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2396 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 23080 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 12):
In the meantime the second 787 has just landed at WAW airport.

Ok, need your help - I will fly in January on LOT's B787 (hopefully). So the question is, will the 2nd B787 be availble to take over the flights of the first B787 or is it scheduled to other routes as well?


User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 22817 times:

Quoting debonair (Reply 13):
will the 2nd B787 be availble to take over the flights of the first B787 or is it scheduled to other routes as well?

Apparently this is already happening.

The new SP-LRB, which arrived in WAW at 3pm today, Friday, will have its first revenue flight WAW-VIE at 6:45 pm today.

SP-LRA is apparently fixed now, and is supposed to fly WAW-LHR tomorrow, Saturday.


User currently offlinemke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2434 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 21950 times:

Long-term are the 787s still occasionally going to be doing some of these short-haul routes throughout Europe? IIRC I think LO used to send their 767s to TLV but that's about it.

Quoting Danny (Reply 12):
In the meantime the second 787 has just landed at WAW airport.

NIce! There's some pics of it up on LO's Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...1411.269021210937&type=1#!/PllLOT. Do they fly in straight from PAE or BFI?



Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3506 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 21888 times:

Vienna flight is being done by 737.

User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 21663 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
Vienna flight is being done by 737

Apparently plans change faster than I can follow them ...

Source in Polish
http://kontakt24.tvn.pl/temat,klopot...naprawiony,71206.html?categoryId=2


User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 21382 times:

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 15):
Long-term are the 787s still occasionally going to be doing some of these short-haul routes throughout Europe? IIRC I think LO used to send their 767s to TLV but that's about it.

The plan was to have these intra Europe flights on 787 completed by January 15, 2013.

Then on January 16, 2013 start WAW-ORD-WAW.

and follow early February with WAW-YYZ-WAW and WAW-JFK-WAW (once LP-LRC is in place) and in March WAW-PEK-WAW (once LP-LRD is in place).

With the introduction of B787 aircraft, the old B767 were supposed to be phased out.

There were no scheduled flights on B767 beyond North American and Asian destinations.

There were occasional charter flights (perhaps the ones to TLV) or one-off flights say to LHR to pick up stranded passengers due to adverse weather conditions on prior days (e.g., volcanic ash in 2010)


User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 21062 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
Vienna flight is being done by 737

Apparently SP-LRB has gone technical once completed the delivery flight from the US a few hours ago. Experts are looking into the root cause of the problem.

Polish lead news site www.gazeta.pl has a lead story - "Second Dreamliner defective upon arrival"
http://wyborcza.biz/biznes/1,100896,...uje_do_Warszawy.html#BoxSlotII2img

[Edited 2012-12-21 11:08:36]

Seems a deja vu of QR's experience. Except LO does not have Al Baker as a CEO ... (well they do not even have a formal CEO at the moment, so no one to scream ...)


[Edited 2012-12-21 11:11:01]

User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21456 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 20706 times:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 18):
The plan was to have these intra Europe flights on 787 completed by January 15, 2013.

If that's the case, they have to avoid damaging any more aircraft before that time.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2836 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 20565 times:

Speaking to someone in LOT, I have just been told "you wouldn't take a car with this level of failure, never mind two."

I wonder if there's a common denominator or cause....

It sense there is intense irritation with the situation.

Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1847 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 20264 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 20):
If that's the case, they have to avoid damaging any more aircraft before that time.

Lot did not do any actual damage to their 787s. The aircraft has issues, not the airline.



All Hail Mighty Triple Seven, The MURDERER of the so-called "Queen"!!!!
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21456 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 20268 times:

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 21):
Speaking to someone in LOT, I have just been told "you wouldn't take a car with this level of failure, never mind two."

The second aircraft was just delivered. If the first is out of service due to a hard landing, who's fault is that? Boeing's? The Pilots'? God? Someone else?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineqantasguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 20166 times:

I hope this gets fixed soon. I know it was disappointing to those at LKPR Thursday am when out of the fog came......a 737. Flightaware reported a 787 en-route too, so even more surprise. Hope LOT can fix and they come back to LKPR and beyond soon   It was a beautiful first arrival Friday, many people to witness  


Airplanes Flown on..B-727-100, B-727-200, DC-9, F-27, B-707, B-717, B-737, B-747SP, B-747-100, B-747-200, B-747-300, B74
User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 20797 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 23):
The second aircraft was just delivered. If the first is out of service due to a hard landing, who's fault is that? Boeing's? The Pilots'? God? Someone else?

The second was delivered - but it went tech as well. With regards to the landing, a mod at FT stated "the brake assembly overheated and a titanuim part got damaged". Don't know how accurate that is, but I haven't come across any other info (in English, anyway).

[Edited 2012-12-21 12:39:18]

User currently offlinekonrad From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 20580 times:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 19):
Apparently SP-LRB has gone technical once completed the delivery flight from the US a few hours ago. Experts are looking into the root cause of the problem.

This is not confirmed.

The 2nd plane delivery flight arrived from PAE at 3:15pm and there was not enough time to rig it up for the 6:45pm flight to VIE. Let us see tomorrow if the dreamtour continues with LHR in the morning and VIE in the afternoon.

[Edited 2012-12-21 12:49:42]

[Edited 2012-12-21 13:13:44]

User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 27, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 20940 times:

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 21):
I have just been told "you wouldn't take a car with this level of failure, never mind two."

Of course not. But the incident rate for cars is far far lower than for aircraft. If you held aircraft (from any OEM) to the reliability standard of modern cars, nobody would ever take delivery of anything.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 21):
It sense there is intense irritation with the situation.

I'm sure there is...wouldn't you be pissed if something you'd payed ~$100 million for and waited and extra 3 years didn't even make it home without an issue?

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 22):
Lot did not do any actual damage to their 787s.

That wasn't clear from earlier in this thread:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 2):
LOT's SP-LRA has been grounded due to mechanical problems/damage to the landing gear.

Tom.


User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 28, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 20606 times:

Quoting konrad (Reply 26):
The 2nd plane delivery flight arrived from PAE at 5:15pm and there was not enough time to rig it up for the 6:45pm flight to VIE.

Sure you don't mean 15:15? Both flightaware and FR24 show the aircraft arriving at 3:15pm - which should be sufficient.


User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 20589 times:

Quoting konrad (Reply 26):
This is not confirmed.

The 2nd plane delivery flight arrived from PAE at 5:15pm and there was not enough time to rig it up

Officially confirmed by LOT's spokesman ...

quoting www.gazeta.pl

Rough Google Translate translation from Polish ...
On Friday, flew from Boeing's factory in Everett in the U.S. The second Boeing 787 Dreamliner owned by LOT Polish Airlines. It was supposed to fly to Vienna today, but it broke.
Machine with registration numbers SP - LRB started on Friday at 5.36 Polish time Paine Field airport in the United States. Landed about 15:30 at Warsaw Okecie. About 17:20 the flight was to fly to Vienna. However, according to LOT's spokesman Mark Kłuciński LOT airplane did not take off from Warsaw. Instead a Boeing 737 substituted. The Commissioner explained that the second dreamliner was signaling a fault and noted that the carrier now checks the problem. It will not perform any flights on Friday.

W piątek przyleciał z fabryki Boeinga z Everett w USA drugi samolot Boeing 787 Dreamliner należący do PLL LOT. Miał dziś odlecieć do Wiednia, ale się zepsuł.
Maszyna o numerach rejestracyjnych SP - LRB wystartowała w piątek o godzinie 5.36 czasu polskiego z lotniska Paine Field w Stanach Zjednoczonych. Wylądowała ok. 15:30 na warszawskim Okęciu. O 17:20 miała wylecieć w rejs do Wiednia. Jednak jak poinformował rzecznik prasowy PLL LOT Marek Kłuciński samolot nie wystartował z Warszawy. Zamiast dreamlinera podstawiono Boeinga 737. Rzecznik wyjaśnił, że w drugim dreamlinerze zauważono sygnalizację pewnej usterki, którą przewoźnik teraz sprawdza. Maszyna w piątek nie uda się w żaden rejs.


User currently offlinekonrad From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 519 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 20351 times:

Quoting flood (Reply 28):
Sure you don't mean 15:15? Both flightaware and FR24 show the aircraft arriving at 3:15pm - which should be sufficient.

I beg your pardon, of course it was 15:15 (already edited in the original post).


User currently offlineThomasCook From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 793 posts, RR: 8
Reply 31, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 20062 times:

Hi,

Regardless of it arriving at 15:15, I doubt that is really enough time to enter it into service. Most aircraft are not delivered with everything in place ready to straight out on line. There is likely a lot of personalisation required including emergency equipment such as BCFs, PBEs etc...

ThomasCook



A380 Crew
User currently offlineRickNRoll From Afghanistan, joined Jan 2012, 764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 19834 times:

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 21):
Speaking to someone in LOT, I have just been told "you wouldn't take a car with this level of failure, never mind two."

Are the money men interfering in this program again, by pushing out planes that aren't ready.


User currently offlinepeterinlisbon From Portugal, joined Jan 2006, 433 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19586 times:

So United, Qatar and now LOT have all had serious problems with their new 787s! And defective aircraft have been delivered to both Qatar and LOT. What's going on?

User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1470 posts, RR: 8
Reply 34, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19425 times:

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 32):
Are the money men interfering in this program again, by pushing out planes that aren't ready.

If the airplane doesn't pass its FAA mandated "tests" both on the ground or inflight it doesn't deliver--the money guys aren't part of the equation, although there have been times they'd like to be.

Airplanes in their first few years of life continually come up with new and "interesting" issues--that's just a fact of life. Many people won't buy a new car model in its first year of production if its a drastic change from the previous years model--same thing. There's always a price to pay for having the fanciest new toy on the block.


User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2836 posts, RR: 26
Reply 35, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19138 times:

Thomas Cook

Wide of the mark there.

Aircraft can and have left Seattle fully service ready.

Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineRickNRoll From Afghanistan, joined Jan 2012, 764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 19068 times:

I can get a "roadworthy" report on my car, it will certify that the car is safe and won't kill anyone. It doesn't tell me that the car is not going to require major maintenance or repairs in the near future, or that the heating and airconditioning works. I don't think the planes aren't safe, that people's lives are being put at risk, Boeing wouldn't do that. I'm just saying it is possible that several aren't ready to be delivered yet, but are being rushed out.

User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1470 posts, RR: 8
Reply 37, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 18975 times:

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 35):
Thomas Cook

Wide of the mark there.

Aircraft can and have left Seattle fully service ready.

Rgds

That is true, but many require "personalization"--some even require seats. Don't know which category LOT falls into.


User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 18846 times:

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 37):

According to Polish news station TVN24, LOT's spokesman, Marek Klucinski, announced that SP-LRB would service Friday's flight to Vienna following its arrival from the factory. I would assume that LOT's management knows whether a plane is personalized enough and ready to take passengers.


User currently offlineThomasCook From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 793 posts, RR: 8
Reply 39, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 16857 times:

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 35):
Wide of the mark there.

Not necessarily. We don't know how the aircraft are handed over and as another member pointed out, some carriers take delivery without seats fitted; notably, BA. I am pretty sure LOTs 787s are delivered with the full cabin installation however, that said, there are still likely other aspects not yet in place for instance, as mentioned, certain equipment, IFE content etc.

ThomasCook



A380 Crew
User currently offlineZKOKQ From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 470 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 16726 times:

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 39):

Not to mention the catering they would have to put onboard.


User currently offlinetraindoc From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 16702 times:

ANA and JAL have the largest 787 fleets, and these are earlier build airplanes. Yet, they seem to be having few problems with them. The more recent builds, planes delivered to UA, LO, QR, and AI seem to be more trouble prone. Any idea what is going on? Boeing is certainly getting egg on its' face, and deservedly so! Makes you think that the Three Stooges are over seeing the 787 program.

User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 42, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15413 times:

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 36):
I'm just saying it is possible that several aren't ready to be delivered yet, but are being rushed out.

What could be wrong with an airplane that would make it not ready to deliver, yet would still be allowed to actually deliver (by Boeing, the airline, and the regulators)? The OEM can't make the airline take delivery if they don't want to, and they can't deliver even if the airline wants it if the regulator says, "No."

Quoting traindoc (Reply 41):
Any idea what is going on?

A new type is entering service. What's odd here isn't what's happening to the airplane, it's the level of reporting. Basically exactly the same thing happened with the A380 EIS. The 787 and the A380 are the first EIS's with major and ubiquitous media coverage.

Quoting traindoc (Reply 41):
Boeing is certainly getting egg on its' face, and deservedly so! Makes you think that the Three Stooges are over seeing the 787 program.

In that case, all Boeing introductions have been run by "the Three Stooges". So far, the 787 hasn't done anything odd for a new type introduction. The exact nature of the bugs is unique, as it always is, but the fact of bugs is not. We just hear way more about them now than we did before.

Tom.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31660 posts, RR: 56
Reply 43, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 14747 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 4):

The roughest landings i know have all been in India, and very fast as well.

What Airline/Sector.....



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3506 posts, RR: 2
Reply 44, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 14436 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 23):
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 21):
Speaking to someone in LOT, I have just been told "you wouldn't take a car with this level of failure, never mind two."

The second aircraft was just delivered. If the first is out of service due to a hard landing, who's fault is that? Boeing's? The Pilots'? God? Someone else?


There was no hard landing. Don't believe everything you see posted on the web.

SP-LRB with 1 hour delay but is on route to London Heathrow.

[Edited 2012-12-21 23:56:13]

User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1847 posts, RR: 4
Reply 45, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 14085 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 27):
Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 22):
Lot did not do any actual damage to their 787s.

That wasn't clear from earlier in this thread:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 2):
LOT's SP-LRA has been grounded due to mechanical problems/damage to the landing gear.

Tom.

It was mechanical problem. Fixed. I suspect some sort of material defect in the part of the landing gear, as the landing itself was nothing out of the ordinary (as reported by many LO DreamTour passengers, all landings were "smooth" - surely they would have noticed hard one).

SP-LRB is most likely something related to electrics/electronics, as the warning light went on during pre-flight check before planned trip to VIE. More than likely, something was done out of sequence due to the rush of the crew, as everyone was struggling to get SP-LRB to fly the Vienna evening round trip. The 737 was truly last minute substitution, it went out 2 hours late.



All Hail Mighty Triple Seven, The MURDERER of the so-called "Queen"!!!!
User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 13698 times:

It is Saturday morning and SP-LRB is on its way to LHR.

User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1847 posts, RR: 4
Reply 47, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 13524 times:

...and I think we may as well close this thread; both 787s are operational, though SP-LRA is not flying today AFAIK.


All Hail Mighty Triple Seven, The MURDERER of the so-called "Queen"!!!!
User currently offlineworldrider From Switzerland, joined Nov 2007, 301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13120 times:

Yet another 787 going tech just after delivery. "someone" isn't taking its time and doesn't want to pay penalties.

Fortunatly no disaster hasn't happened so far.


User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6707 posts, RR: 78
Reply 49, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12467 times:

Quoting worldrider (Reply 48):
Yet another 787 going tech just after delivery. "someone" isn't taking its time and doesn't want to pay penalties.

Pure speculation, I'd say.

Quoting worldrider (Reply 48):
Fortunatly no disaster hasn't happened so far.

So which 787 problem (after delivery) has been really dangerous? Probably you know more than anyone else here? Facts, please.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlinegr09 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2008, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12459 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 44):
There was no hard landing. Don't believe everything you see posted on the web.

It was reported as an unusually hard landing at two independent forums by people who had been on the flight. Why would aviation enthusiasts lie about that? I can't think of any motivation.


User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6707 posts, RR: 78
Reply 51, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12433 times:

Quoting gr09 (Reply 50):
It was reported as an unusually hard landing at two independent forums by people who had been on the flight. Why would aviation enthusiasts lie about that? I can't think of any motivation.

Subjective perceptions cannot replace facts.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlinegr09 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2008, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12432 times:

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 51):
Subjective perceptions cannot replace facts.

And what are the facts?


User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 53, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12444 times:

It is very wise of LOT to take their &*&s out of service until the electrical problems are sorted out. No one wants an inflight incident.

I notice that the only 787s flying around, according to Flightradar24, are the one's based in Japan. Have QR taken their 787s out of service too as a precaution?


User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12445 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 53):
Have QR taken their 787s out of service too as a precaution?
QR
I saw two of them on FR24 today ... DOH-LHR very early in the morning, and DOH-DXB just recently.

LO
LOT SP-LRB flew WAW-LHR at 9:00-11:00 am GMT+1 and should be coming back very soon.

B787 WAW-VIE is scheduled for 17:20 ...

[Edited 2012-12-22 03:45:06]

User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6707 posts, RR: 78
Reply 55, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12354 times:

Quoting gr09 (Reply 52):
And what are the facts?

I don't know, I simply say that people shouldn't jump to conclusions after hearing reports from passengers.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlinelhrnue From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12348 times:

I read that LH has engineers at Boeing during production, test and and delivery of each of their aircraft to ensure they are faultless when handed over. Is any other airline (in this case LOT) doing something similar?

User currently offlinegr09 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2008, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 12205 times:

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 55):
I don't know, I simply say that people shouldn't jump to conclusions after hearing reports from passengers.

Where am I jumping into conclusions? I'm just saying people on aviation forum reported hard landing on Wednesday. And I was replying to statement from Danny (was he even on the plane on that day?).


User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6707 posts, RR: 78
Reply 58, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 12013 times:

Quoting gr09 (Reply 57):
Where am I jumping into conclusions?

Did I suggest that? No. I said "people".

Some users seem to relate an allegedly hard landing to technical problems which grounded the plane - that's what I question as long as we don't know more facts from reliable sources.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30388 posts, RR: 84
Reply 59, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11654 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting worldrider (Reply 48):
Yet another 787 going tech just after delivery. "someone" isn't taking its time and doesn't want to pay penalties.

That "someone" would be LOT, then.

There is a reason they have C(ustomer) flights, so the new owners can try it out before they hand over the final payment and accept the title.


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21456 posts, RR: 60
Reply 60, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11525 times:

I have never heard of a revenue flight scheduled the same afternoon as a delivery flight, but maybe it happens. Most likely at WN with the 1000th 737 they've flown, not LOT w their second 787. But hey, they know best, right? To me it seems like a case of PR trumps proper planning.

As for the Planehunter, its nice you choose to discount two accounts of a hard landing right before the plane went tech because PAST flights had smooth landings, but there's no logic there. Might as well ignore crashes too because, we'll, that same plane never crashed before...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5146 posts, RR: 6
Reply 61, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11477 times:

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 31):
Regardless of it arriving at 15:15, I doubt that is really enough time to enter it into service. Most aircraft are not delivered with everything in place ready to straight out on line. There is likely a lot of personalisation required including emergency equipment such as BCFs, PBEs etc...

I seem to revcall V Australia took deliveries of their 777's and the first pax flights were LAX-SYD....


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2922 posts, RR: 29
Reply 62, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11363 times:

Quoting lhrnue (Reply 56):
I read that LH has engineers at Boeing during production, test and and delivery of each of their aircraft to ensure they are faultless when handed over. Is any other airline (in this case LOT) doing something similar?

It's usual for customer airline engineers to be at Boeing (or Airbus, etc) when taking first delivery of a plane that's new to the fleet, but it has much more to do with learning and familiarization than overseeing the manufacturer.



Note à moi-même - il faut respecter les cons.
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 63, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 11189 times:

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 45):
I suspect some sort of material defect in the part of the landing gear

If so, it would have had to be in a replaceable part...they did not have enough time to change gear and there are essentially zero allowable material defects in the gear strut itself.

Quoting worldrider (Reply 48):
Yet another 787 going tech just after delivery. "someone" isn't taking its time and doesn't want to pay penalties.

Why do you think they don't pay? All the delivery delay penalties have long since been paid and all these aircraft are still under warranty. It's much cheaper to delay delivery and fix it than have to pay for the warranty fix.

Quoting worldrider (Reply 48):
Fortunatly no disaster hasn't happened so far.

Why do you say "fortunately"? What defect has occured anywhere that came even remotely close to being a disaster? Unless you just mean the general context that every aircraft that makes it to it's destination has "fortunately not had a disaster so far."

Quoting lhrnue (Reply 56):
I read that LH has engineers at Boeing during production, test and and delivery of each of their aircraft to ensure they are faultless when handed over. Is any other airline (in this case LOT) doing something similar?

That's normal for anyone with reasonably sized production runs. LH does, BA does, ANA does, JAL does, UA does...I would assume LOT does too.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 58):
Some users seem to relate an allegedly hard landing to technical problems which grounded the plane -

Well, it's a hell of a coincidence for an aircraft to have multiple reports of a hard landing and then be tech for a landing gear problem. I agree it's not proof but it's not unreasonable to relate the two absent additional data.

Tom.


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21456 posts, RR: 60
Reply 64, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10945 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 63):
Well, it's a hell of a coincidence for an aircraft to have multiple reports of a hard landing and then be tech for a landing gear problem. I agree it's not proof but it's not unreasonable to relate the two absent additional data.

Exactly. There is no obligation for anyone to tell us anything, but you combine hard landing with going tech for gear problems, and you have to wonder. And that can include brake problems, because you could easily bounce while braking causing some strain on the brakes that may not be normal.

Which is NOT to say it is LOT's fault. Again, it could be Boeing's fault for having a tolerance too low under this condition that was never replicated during testing. If we see some sort of redesign of the brakes after this incident, that might be a clue.

It could also have been a fault in the flight control software that lead to the hard landing. But to just dismiss the accounts of a hard landing from those ON THE FLIGHT because other flights were smooth is ludicrous.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineCM From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 65, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10936 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 59):
That "someone" would be LOT, then.

Maybe, but this can only be part of the problem.

It is certainly true that introducing any new aircraft into the fleet of an airline is complex. When it is a brand new aircraft type on top of that, the complexity is multiplied. A wise airline will always take a measured approach rather than diving right in.

In the case of NH & JL, they were both deeply involved with the 787 engineering effort with a large engineering staff in Everett for years while the 787 was being developed. Still, they each took a month after first 787 delivery before beginning revenue flights with their 787s. AI & ET have far less experience with the 787 and less understanding of the airplane, but have pushed the 787 into revenue service much faster. UA, LO & LA have the same amount of experience with the 787 as AI & ET, but have taken a more conservative approach to placing the aircraft into service.

Airline - Time from delivery to first revenue flight

UA.. 41 Days
JL.. 35 Days
LA.. 31 Days
NH.. 30 Days
LO.. 30 Days
AI... 13 Days
ET.. 1 Day

As a point of comparison, Malaysia took their first A380 in on May 27, 2012 and did not put it into revenue service until July 1 - 5 weeks later - for an airplane type which had its EIS 5 years ago.



When we flew ZA001 to WAW after the Paris Airshow in 2011, I was struck with just how small an operator LO is. I don't say this in a disparaging way toward LO, because I KNOW they are a quality operator. However, they do not have the same engineering and technical resources at their disposal as NH, JL or UA. With the same level of experience as UA, and fewer resources, LO has chosen to push the airplane into service faster. In a relative sense, they are pushing the 787 harder than UA. This may be a part of the reason for their difficulty.

On the other hand, some of the issues LO is rumored to have faced (defective landing gear component, door seal leakage, etc) would be workmanship and quality problems, and no amount of knowledge about the airplane or prep in advance of placing it into service would help mitigate these types of problems. If true, these issues can't point back to LO, even if there were a few rough landings.

Edit: Clarified last statement.

[Edited 2012-12-22 11:57:53]

User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6707 posts, RR: 78
Reply 66, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10294 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 60):
As for the Planehunter, its nice you choose to discount two accounts of a hard landing right before the plane went tech because PAST flights had smooth landings, but there's no logic there. Might as well ignore crashes too because, we'll, that same plane never crashed before...

Where exactly did I say anything about smooth past landings? Read more carefully and stop putting things in my mouth.

I'm simply skeptical about one or two reports about "hard landings". Subjective perceptions can be very different from reality. I don't accept that as a proof for anything.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineFlyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 699 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 10094 times:

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 66):

I'm simply skeptical about one or two reports about "hard landings". Subjective perceptions can be very different from reality. I don't accept that as a proof for anything.

Yes, you hear people telling stories about hard landings even if that was just a normal firm landing. If pilot rumors are considered unreliable here on the board, I'd place passenger / eye witness stories somewhere far behind... Anyway, isn't there a accelerometer or such to measure the amount of g when the plane lands and if this is within the limits the manufacturer has defined, no action is required?


User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 24
Reply 68, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 10023 times:

SP-LRB is enroute WAW to HAJ ad LO 403 running about 40 min behind schedule.
This is one of two visits of LO's B787 to HAJ in the coming days (next: 04-JAN-2013 in the afternoon).
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8666 posts, RR: 43
Reply 69, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 9647 times:

Quoting HT (Reply 68):
SP-LRB is enroute WAW to HAJ ad LO 403 running about 40 min behind schedule.

The reason given was "operational problems", IIRC. Initially, the delay was announced to be 15 minutes, then indefinite, then came the boarding announcement... PHEW! 



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 24
Reply 70, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9375 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 69):
The reason given was "operational problems", IIRC. Initially, the delay was announced to be 15 minutes, then indefinite, then came the boarding announcement... PHEW! 

I had thought the minus 10 °C in WAW could have played a rôle here. And the closure of WMI.

Just in case, the following website has pictures from HAJ (with LOTs of rain):
haj-spotter-forum.de/thread.php?threadid=3818&sid=&page=1

The URL deliberately is incomplete as one never knows which website may be linked directly these days here on A.net.
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlinemke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2434 posts, RR: 5
Reply 71, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9163 times:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 18):
The plan was to have these intra Europe flights on 787 completed by January 15, 2013.

Then on January 16, 2013 start WAW-ORD-WAW.

and follow early February with WAW-YYZ-WAW and WAW-JFK-WAW (once LP-LRC is in place) and in March WAW-PEK-WAW (once LP-LRD is in place).

With the introduction of B787 aircraft, the old B767 were supposed to be phased out.

There were no scheduled flights on B767 beyond North American and Asian destinations.


So if they're not going to continue some of these short-haul flights, where are all their 787s going to go? They ordered 8, but they cut EWR, KRK, and RZE so it would seem like a few of them could be sitting around quite a bit. Any chance of getting some new/restored service to North America or are all the new routes going to be to Asia?



Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 72, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8813 times:

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 67):
Anyway, isn't there a accelerometer or such to measure the amount of g when the plane lands and if this is within the limits the manufacturer has defined, no action is required?

Yes, although it relies on the flight crew to notify maintenance of a potential hard landing. Maintenance then pulls the landing data, which includes a capture of acceleration on all three axes (both directional and rotational) at touchdown. There's a table in the AMM that specifies what action should be taken based on the values.

Quoting HT (Reply 70):
I had thought the minus 10 °C in WAW could have played a rôle here.

Any certified jet is tested considerably colder than that...at least -30 for FAA certification, -40 for Canada/Russia.

Tom.


User currently offlineflyingbird From Sweden, joined Mar 2005, 163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8510 times:

From Flightradar24 Facebook:

LOT's second Dreamliner (SP-LRB) flying as LO223 to Vienna this morning, made some circles outside of Vienna, and is now going back to Warsaw. We don't know the reason yet.

http://fr24.com/LOT223


User currently onlineshamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6317 posts, RR: 14
Reply 74, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8461 times:

Quoting flyingbird (Reply 73):
LOT's second Dreamliner (SP-LRB) flying as LO223 to Vienna this morning, made some circles outside of Vienna, and is now going back to Warsaw. We don't know the reason yet.

Bad weather in Vienna? Visibility is a problem at the moment.


User currently offlinedelta777jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1228 posts, RR: 3
Reply 75, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8391 times:

That can't be the reason, other flights landed on time or with slight delay, except of course the 787 would be flying VFR  
If they continue this way, the trans atlantic operation would not be very reliable.



Fly easyJet
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6707 posts, RR: 78
Reply 76, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8237 times:

Quoting delta777jet (Reply 75):
If they continue this way, the trans atlantic operation would not be very reliable.

Still three weeks to go. No reason to dramatize anything.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8368 times:

Quoting shamrock350 (Reply 74):
Bad weather in Vienna? Visibility is a problem at the moment

Apparently, Polish news sources quote weather conditions in VIE, and visibility or lack of due to fog in particular, as the reason for returning to WAW. Passengers will allegedly be transferred onto another a/c and fly to VIE.

Is it possible that Polish pilots are not (yet) certified to land 787 in CAT II or CAT III ?

[Edited 2012-12-24 04:33:19]

[Edited 2012-12-24 04:41:37]

User currently offlinedelta777jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1228 posts, RR: 3
Reply 78, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8177 times:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 77):
Is it possible that Polish pilots are not (yet) certified to land 787 in CAT II or CAT III ?

Must be it then, but silly from their operations to dispatch the plane there if they know they won't be able to land.
Nice for the 787 fans, but bad for regular pax to fly to Vienna to find out weather is below minima and then going back to their origin.



Fly easyJet
User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8129 times:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 77):
Is it possible that Polish pilots are not (yet) certified to land 787 in CAT II or CAT III ?

Exactly what happened.



Peet7G
User currently offlinemilan320 From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 869 posts, RR: 11
Reply 80, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8169 times:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 77):
Apparently, Polish news sources quote weather conditions in VIE, and visibility or lack of due to fog in particular, as the reason for returning to WAW. Passengers will allegedly be transferred onto another a/c and fly to VIE.

Indeed that seems the case. Gazeta Wyborcza has an article on it (sorry in Polish). According to the article, this time there was no problem with the plane, rather bad weather conditions due to fog. The flight circled over Vienna a number of times and then returned to Warsaw. The passengers after returning to Warsaw switched planes and are waiting (at the time the article was written) for improvements to the weather in Vienna.

http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomos...dnia.html#BoxWiadTxt?lokale=krakow



I accept bribes ... :-)
User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7960 times:

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 79):
Quoting ordwaw (Reply 77):
Is it possible that Polish pilots are not (yet) certified to land 787 in CAT II or CAT III ?

Exactly what happened.

How many hours does it take for a pilot to obtain ILS CAT II and CAT III certifications? Does it vary from a/c to a/c?

Considering that B787 is new to LO, QR, and UA, would it be safe to assume that none of these airlines has pilots already certified on B787 for CAT II and III?


User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 24
Reply 82, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7579 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 72):
Quoting HT (Reply 70):I had thought the minus 10 °C in WAW could have played a rôle here.
Any certified jet is tested considerably colder than that...at least -30 for FAA certification, -40 for Canada/Russia.

I was thinking of delays in departure due to regular de-icing being required, taking into account that there might be extra delays due to the extra traffic WAW currently has to take over due to WMI's closure (affecting) FR) and W6's temporarily move back to WAW until 06-JAN-2014 midnight.

Quoting flyingbird (Reply 73):
OT's second Dreamliner (SP-LRB) flying as LO223 to Vienna this morning, made some circles outside of Vienna, and is now going back to Warsaw.

LO must have known about the weather situation at VIE before take-off then, I suppose ?
I doubt that under normal operations they would have fueled the B787 with so much fuel to fly out 342 mi, circle VIE, and fly back 342 mi to WAW.
What Primary Alternate would a flight plan WAW to VIE list ?
BTS ? But chances are high that the weather isn't better there, too, given the short distance between VIE and BTS.
BRQ, GRZ, LNZ, BUD ?

OTOH, the B787 without doubt has enough fuel capacity to easily return to WAW.
Might LO even have planned not to refuel at VIE at all, if they had landed there ?
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7342 times:

Quoting HT (Reply 82):
LO must have known about the weather situation at VIE before take-off then, I suppose ?
I doubt that under normal operations they would have fueled the B787 with so much fuel to fly out 342 mi, circle VIE, and fly back 342 mi to WAW.
What Primary Alternate would a flight plan WAW to VIE list ?
BTS ? But chances are high that the weather isn't better there, too, given the short distance between VIE and BTS.
BRQ, GRZ, LNZ, BUD ?

By the time of departure, the info was that conditions at VIE would be within CAT I RVR of 550m and that the weather will improve...nature is tricky.

The choice of returning to WAW instead of a diversion, was that all logical alternatives had similar or even worse weather, or not ready to service the 787, besides at WAW the 787 has a whole on-site support team, I think during these "test runs" they always plan to be able to return to WAW in any case unless it is an emergency.

...and LOT had other planes ready to take the passengers to their final destination.



Peet7G
User currently offlinehkcanadaexpat From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2012, 567 posts, RR: 3
Reply 84, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7167 times:

Same issue happened to an Air India 787 in Delhi on Monday.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...Christmas/articleshow/17749849.cms


User currently offlineLO231 From Belgium, joined Sep 2004, 2392 posts, RR: 23
Reply 85, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6135 times:

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 5):

Don't scare me, I am booked on the 5th BRU-WAW and on the tenth WAW-BRU  



Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 86, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5704 times:

What's the status of their birds? LRA appears to be back in service with FR24 showing it operating to PRG and MUC on the 28th. LRB (edited, brainfart) hasn't flown since the 24th?

[Edited 2012-12-28 20:11:14]

User currently offlineLO231 From Belgium, joined Sep 2004, 2392 posts, RR: 23
Reply 87, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5438 times:

Quoting flood (Reply 86):
Quoting flood (Reply 86):

Also,what are my chances for the fifth of Jan BRU-WAW LO 236?



Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 88, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5369 times:

Quoting LO231 (Reply 87):
Also,what are my chances for the fifth of Jan BRU-WAW LO 236?

If I'm not mistaken, their schedule only shows them operating WAW-BRU-WAW early morning and FRA in the evening - easily done with one aircraft. That said, you should be fine.


User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8666 posts, RR: 43
Reply 89, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5352 times:

Quoting LO231 (Reply 87):
Also,what are my chances for the fifth of Jan BRU-WAW LO 236?

Pretty decent, I suspect. As per the list of flights that was made available here:
LOT's 787 Dreamliner Flights Around Europe (by kamilinlondon Oct 21 2012 in Civil Aviation)
there will be no more than two 787 rotations on that day; WAW-BRU-WAW and WAW-FRA-WAW. The entire promotional flight schedule seems to be designed for one aircraft, and with generous buffers on top, so SP-LRB must be busy doing other things while SP-LRA is used for the promo flights. Unless both go tech, LRB is probably going to be available as a backup - just the way it was used on e.g. WAW-HAJ-WAW on the 23rd.

All things considered, if I were you, I wouldn't be tense, but certainly crossing my fingers.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (1 year 6 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4508 times:

SP-LRA encountered a problem at FRA after arriving from WAW this morning (Jan 4). The return flight was cancelled, passengers rebooked onto other flights.

According to LOT spokesman, the pilots went through the checklist, consulted with Boeing, and were able to address the problem and return to WAW (empty, no pax), leaving FRA at Noon.

As a result, the second flight of the day, the afternoon flight to HAJ, leaving WAW at 14:00 was made on SP-LRB, which was recalled from a training duty around KRK this afternoon.


User currently onlineshamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6317 posts, RR: 14
Reply 91, posted (1 year 6 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4424 times:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 90):
As a result, the second flight of the day, the afternoon flight to HAJ, leaving WAW at 14:00 was made on SP-LRB, which was recalled from a training duty around KRK this afternoon.

I was booked on the HAJ flight this afternoon and started getting a little nervous when I noticed the inbound had been cancelled. I followed both aircraft on flightradar24 so knew there was a good chance I'd be flying the Dreamliner despite the earlier cancellation.

By the time I arrived at the gate -LRB was already there and looked set to go but we were still delayed by over an hour due to "operational reasons" and a lot of attention was being paid to the nose gear by ground staff but no other reason was given until boarding suddenly started. While this was going on -LRA arrived and taxied to a stand opposite the terminal. Pleased to say the flight on -LRB went perfectly despite the delay and I even got to see it depart back to WAW as I waited for my flight to LHR.


User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 24
Reply 92, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4030 times:

Quoting shamrock350 (Reply 91):
By the time I arrived at the gate -LRB was already there and looked set to go but we were still delayed by over an hour due to "operational reasons" and a lot of attention was being paid to the nose gear by ground staff b

In return I flew on SP-LRB on the return section HAJ to WAW and with a very light passenger load (LF between 25 and 30 %) and noticed that the aircraft taxied very (!) slowly. Especially at WAW it was slower than walking speed.

Today's rotation to BRU and back currently is being carried out by SP-LRA (passing south of Magdeburg at the time of writing) operating on time.
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3986 times:

Is it as quiet as the film clips made seem to give the feeling of? Even the 748i seems quiet compared to the 744. As more planes will be twins it is a positive if engines get quieter.

User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 24
Reply 94, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3905 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 93):
Is it as quiet as the film clips made seem to give the feeling of? Even the 748i seems quiet compared to the 744. As more planes will be twins it is a positive if engines get quieter.

I was sitting in seat 28J which is the window seat in the second last row on SP-LRB.
Here is my perception:
Engine noise was negligible in cruise; during take off and climb it was audible but nothing to be concerned of, taking into account that the engines likely were derated for that take off with a very light load. Still the take off roll was very short.

More noise is coming from the air rushing along the fuselage - and for a new design, I was not too impressed by the noise levels I experienced.
Also ventilation makes noticeable noise as did some kind of pump (or similar) that was operating until a good way throughout climb.

Granted, my last experiences with A330 / A340 have been in the front of the cabin, but I found the back of the B788 noticeably more noisy than the front of the said Airbii. And I am only referring to technical noise, not created by humans.

Also I found the electronic window shading operating very slowly. It was that slow that I first thought that it was inop. A full darkening took like 60 seconds or so (based feeling, no stop watched), the same is true for becoming fully translucent.

My   
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 95, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3453 times:

Quoting HT (Reply 94):
Also ventilation makes noticeable noise as did some kind of pump (or similar) that was operating until a good way throughout climb.

Center hydraulic pumps. There are two and they're inside the wing-body fairing under your feet. Prior to takeoff they both go to high speed to provide sufficient hydraulic power for fail-safe gear and flap retraction. Once the airplane cleans up one shuts down and the other goes to low speed.

Quoting HT (Reply 94):
Granted, my last experiences with A330 / A340 have been in the front of the cabin, but I found the back of the B788 noticeably more noisy than the front of the said Airbii. And I am only referring to technical noise, not created by humans.

In general, the front is always quieter than the back. Most of the mechanical systems (i.e. the noisy ones) are in the wing/body fairing and the tail, and the air noise gets worse as you go back.

Tom.


User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 96, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3421 times:

Quoting LO231 (Reply 87):
Also,what are my chances for the fifth of Jan BRU-WAW LO 236?

Glad to see your flight was operated by a 787, let us know how it went  
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 95):
Center hydraulic pumps.

That's this high-pitched sound? It ceases at 11:15.
http://youtu.be/tfjNSUvwG6M?t=9m40s


User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3363 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 95):
Center hydraulic pumps. There are two and they're inside the wing-body fairing under your feet. Prior to takeoff they both go to high speed to provide sufficient hydraulic power for fail-safe gear and flap retraction. Once the airplane cleans up one shuts down and the other goes to low speed.

Thanks for that explanation tdscanuck, now at least I know what was driving me crazy before. I found that high pitch noise extremely disturbing on my 787 flights and in fact was probably the only thing that disturbed, but totally ruined my cabin comfort experience at the beginning on my 787 trips... I remember on my first 787 flight on ANA I thought I will simply open the door and get out if I have to listen to that sound all through my trip.

Quoting flood (Reply 96):
That's this high-pitched sound?

Yepp...that is that annoying sound... However what I find interesting is that on the ANA 787s (and I yet have no other experience with 787s) this annoying sound started right after pushback and stopped as soon as the engines spooled up for takeoff...or at least when reaching a mid speed down the runway, but definitely before leaving the ground. I think this whining greatly disrupts the overall experience.

...by the way I will be on a joyride trip on the LOT 787 BUD-WAW on the 11th, and be back on it WAW-BUD on the 13th anyone else on the flight?  



Peet7G
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 98, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3345 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

As this specific plane is no longer "technical" and the thread has run its course for all intents and purposes, it will be locked for further contributions. Any posts added after the lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.

Thanks and regards,

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
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