RootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4179 posts, RR: 45 Posted (5 months 23 hours ago) and read 18777 times:
Hi folks,
there is a question I've been asking myself for a while. Why did AF take the 777 when they already had the A340. I have understood that those two a/c compete against each other. Does anyone know the reason why they decided to have two competing A/C ?
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
TK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4105 posts, RR: 13 Reply 2, posted (5 months 23 hours ago) and read 18719 times:
Not necessarily competing.
TK also, has both the 340-300 and the 77W.
77W has 100 or so more seats and lot more cargo space also.
But the 340 has almost completed its mission and on its way out.
nrt1011 From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 100 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (5 months 22 hours ago) and read 18484 times:
TG still flies the 777 as well as the A340-600. Must admit, I always thought one or the other. Cathay always kept their fleet down to a manageable mix I always thought
airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 6873 posts, RR: 7 Reply 4, posted (5 months 18 hours ago) and read 17902 times:
Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter): there is a question I've been asking myself for a while. Why did AF take the 777 when they already had the A340. I have understood that those two a/c compete against each other. Does anyone know the reason why they decided to have two competing A/C ?
Simple. They had already purchased A340's when the 772 became available. Most airlines don't have the luxury of being able to refresh their fleet on a short cycle. They make their fleet planning for the long term. Also remember that the original 772 wasn't as capable as later model 772's (the 772ER was only available in 1997), and AF needed a plane for those long thin routes, and possibly the take off performance of the quad for some airports (SXM being one example).
At least AF did eventually order the 777 and A330 to hedge their bets against the least efficient A340, unlike some other airlines
Polot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1497 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (5 months 18 hours ago) and read 17831 times:
Quoting nrt1011 (Reply 3): TG still flies the 777 as well as the A340-600. Must admit, I always thought one or the other. Cathay always kept their fleet down to a manageable mix I always thought
Didn't TG have some issues getting ETOPS approval or something? I thought I read that once which is why they went for the A340NGs. Now that obviously isn't a problem.
g500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 724 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (5 months 16 hours ago) and read 16548 times:
Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter): there is a question I've been asking myself for a while. Why did AF take the 777 when they already had the A340. I have understood that those two a/c compete against each other. Does anyone know the reason why they decided to have two competing A/C ?
It sounds more like you're asking, why did AF buy American when the French own a piece of Airbus and they already had Airbus.
The 777 is a more economical aircraft, from fuel comsuption to maintenance (2 engines vs 4 engines). Good decision by AF
SEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6257 posts, RR: 39 Reply 7, posted (5 months 16 hours ago) and read 16505 times:
Quoting Polot (Reply 5): Didn't TG have some issues getting ETOPS approval or something? I thought I read that once which is why they went for the A340NGs. Now that obviously isn't a problem.
Did they order the A346's before the 77W had demonstrated that it would beat all expectations, including Boeing's? Most A346 sales (except for top-up orders) were before it was known how good the 77W would be; also, remember that the A346 was available well before the 77W. Airlines that ordered the A346 before knowing how good the 77W would be were stuck in a dilemma; do they order more A346's to avoid having to add another type (like LH), or do they order 77W's and accept the costs of two different types on essentially the same mission; the only other option is dispose of the A346's at a huge loss and go all 77W's. Different airlines have dealt with the situation differently; I suspect that a lot followed the second option, probably including TG. Any airline that has hot-and-high destinations would probably want to hold on to at least a few A346's, as that is the one scenario where it has a clear edge on the 77W.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
MWHCVT From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 573 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 months 16 hours ago) and read 15730 times:
I'm going to ask it again, as I don't think I've ever got an answer, but how much fuel does a single engine burn on a 777 compared to 2 engines on a 340??
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
PM From India, joined Feb 2005, 6715 posts, RR: 65 Reply 9, posted (5 months 15 hours ago) and read 15373 times:
In a nutshell and all other things being equal, the 777-200ER is generally a better plane than the A340-300. As a passenger, I'd much prefer to fly on an A340 than a 777 but in terms of economics, the Boeing is the better bet. AF bought the A340 because it was available earlier and - no doubt - for political reasons. But then they went for the 777 and liked it. They then became a very early customer for the 777-300ER and, seemingly, like it too (as does everybody).
So, the simple answer is that the 777 generally outperforms the A340 and that's why AF preferred it.
AirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 852 posts, RR: 3 Reply 10, posted (5 months 15 hours ago) and read 15146 times:
Quoting PM (Reply 9): They then became a very early customer for the 777-300ER and, seemingly, like it too (as does everybody).
AF was the launch customer for the 777-300ER.
Despite political pressure in the early 90s, AF said no to the A346 and decided to focus its long-haul fleet renewal on the 777. To become today one of the largest operator of this type, with 25 777-200ER and 37 777-300ER (+8 in order). And only 13 A343 remaining (+15 A332).
Azure From France, joined Dec 2012, 203 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (5 months 15 hours ago) and read 14797 times:
Quoting AirGabon (Reply 10): AF was the launch customer for the 777-300ER.
Despite political pressure in the early 90s, AF said no to the A346 and decided to focus its long-haul fleet renewal on the 777. To become today one of the largest operator of this type, with 25 777-200ER and 37 777-300ER (+8 in order). And only 13 A343 remaining (+15 A332).
On a side note, AF was also the launch customer for the A340-300 in march 1993.
IMO AF like to have a mixed fleet of A and B aircrafts, as their intention to order both the A350 and the 787 for their long haul fleet renewal may suggest. They probably follow an old french proverb : "do not put all your eggs in one basket". A clever attitude to get the best deals for the most suited aircrafts...
SEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6257 posts, RR: 39 Reply 14, posted (5 months 14 hours ago) and read 14467 times:
Quoting MWHCVT (Reply 8): I'm going to ask it again, as I don't think I've ever got an answer, but how much fuel does a single engine burn on a 777 compared to 2 engines on a 340??
I believe that the 77W has about a 9-10% fuel burn advantage over the A346. I don't know what the figures are between the A343 and 77E.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11122 posts, RR: 63 Reply 15, posted (5 months 14 hours ago) and read 14470 times:
Quoting MWHCVT (Reply 8): I'm going to ask it again, as I don't think I've ever got an answer, but how much fuel does a single engine burn on a 777 compared to 2 engines on a 340??
On the same mission the A346 would burn around 5% more fuel than a 77W, but take this as a 'soft' figure from an acquaintance's analysis several years ago. Fuel burn isn't everything mind, and being able to shift more payload out of certain airports is where the A346 and A340 family as a whole still have the edge over the 777/330.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21465 posts, RR: 24 Reply 18, posted (5 months 12 hours ago) and read 12496 times:
Quoting AirGabon (Reply 10): Quoting PM (Reply 9):
They then became a very early customer for the 777-300ER and, seemingly, like it too (as does everybody).
AF was the launch customer for the 777-300ER.
AF was also the first non-US carrier to order and operate the 727-200. They also replaced their French-built Caravelles with 737-200s.
YULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 6 Reply 21, posted (5 months 10 hours ago) and read 11546 times:
They are not exactly identical airplanes, they compete(d) and overlap(ped) a lot, but the A343 is nonetheless a bit smaller. From the A343 to the 772ER there was a small increase in capacity, both freight and cargo. Also a step up in performance, and slightly more range (though the A340 can virtually fly any route that AF operates, current or discontinued). Seat configurations cannot always be compared 1 to 1 due to different seating density and different classes, but AF A340 seats 30J 21W 224Y = 275, AF 77E seats (in comparable 3 class and not 4 class) 34J 24W 250Y = 306. If using 9 abreast instead of 10, these 250 seats would drop by ~ 20, for ~ 285 seats (still slightly more than the A340, but not by much).
Quoting AirGabon (Reply 10):
AF was the launch customer for the 777-300ER.
Despite political pressure in the early 90s, AF said no to the A346 and decided to focus its long-haul fleet renewal on the 777.
This is really where Airbus lost big to AF. Maybe if the A346 had come with GE engines.... but the 77W was going to come out with GE engines.
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7345 posts, RR: 7 Reply 24, posted (5 months 9 hours ago) and read 10862 times:
Quoting ADent (Reply 20): AF is a big fan of GE engines. I assume because GE and Snecma are partners on CFM and other projects.
A340-600 doesn't have a GE option. 777-300ER is GE powered.
I am sure that is not the only reason, but since the rest of the fleet is GE powered, it must be one reason.
Ita all about teh engines, France has long been a user of GE engines and partners in the CFM engines and GE90. AF has also had an allergy to RR engines, only when teh Concorde came did they not have a choice. Now they are ordering A350 but RR wants to sell them the maintanence and AF wants to do it themselves, this is the only engine on the plane. The French - British tiff continues.
25 trex8: Dont know about the 772ER but for a 772A, CX uses identical fuel burn figures as A343. Would think the 772ER burns more being heavier but it has a hi
26 FI642: Speaking to Pilots and Mechanics at my airline, they both prefer GE to any other engine type. Pilots from the standpoint of being able to get max pow
27 MWHCVT: Thanks to you both this is the first time that I've ever managed to get an answer to that question, as the way you get some people go on you'd think
28 qantas744er: On any commercial aircraft where RR and GE are the option: A330, MD11, B747/67/77/87 the three spool design of the RR engines has proven to provide q
29 yyz717: The AF 777 order was certainly a coup d'etat for Boeing, given how politics can often influence aircraft orders. I'm sure there was gallic outrage th
30 brindabella: Errr, I know what you're asking, but my thoughts stray to an engine-failure on the B777 being compared to a double engine-failure on an A340! cheers,
31 Azure: Sorry dear highly respected member of a.net, but the situation in France is slighlty different from what you are trying to depict. AF have been alway
32 AirbusA6: It's certainly true that Airbus is quite capable of standing on its own feet now without the 'helpful' launch orders from AF. Similarly RR is dependan
33 Azure: Agreed, but Eurostar is a subsidiary of the state-owned SNCF (the french railways company) : that did not prevent them from buying german trains. Onc
34 ushermittwoch: Especially considering that French trains are actually better than their German counterparts. But Siemens has quite the reputation for having other c
35 PM: "Soon"? Try December of last year. Correct. "is"??? That's ancient history, pal. The last order for RB211-powered 747s was almost seven years ago (28
36 LY777: I disagree. While most European Airlines prefer buying Airbus planes (IB, TAP, LX, SN, EZY are all-Airbus for example/ AF, LH, AZ have a vast majorit
37 par13del: I guess the fact that the USA as a country is one of or the largest operators of Airbus a/c carries no sway, and this is before the recent AA order.
38 mandala499: Total trip fuel burn between 77E & 343 is about 0-5% depending on the conditions, on a same payload tonnage. Between 77W and 346... all I can say
39 Azure: Thanks, I totally agree with you ! But to be fair, BA will operate A380s as from 2013... If you take time to read again my entire post, my point will
40 Stitch: JetBlue Airways, US Airways and Frontier Airlines all come to mind in terms of their order history, even if said history is not as long as Air France
41 7BOEING7: AF has been a loyal B customer but let's put this in perspective. When AF bought the 707, 727, 737-200 and 747 they were basically the only game in t
42 lightsaber: Due to that partnership, AF gets their requirements in the initial design. GE has its pluses, but it is airframe dependent. For example, there is a r
43 PM: Alas, that's no longer true. GE have been scoring important wins and their share of the A330 market is now 2 or 3 percentage points above PW's. They
44 ADent: Pre-merger UA was getting pretty friendly with Airbus, after being a Boeing (and McD) shop for years. Pre-merger NW was a pretty good A customer too.
45 PM: Strictly speaking, an IAE option of which PW owned one third.
46 raggi: I was under the impression that recent modifications on the CF6 have improved its performance, at least now it handles "hot 'n high" conditions bette
47 AirbusA6: Sorry, my comment came out wrong, you need to swap the word 'is' for the word 'was' What I was trying to say, is that RR (like Airbus in its early da
48 SEPilot: As I understand it, the GE90-110/115's maintenance is much more expensive than any other engine, so the advantage is not as much as one might think.
49 LY777: I think we will have to disagree on this one: I was not talking about AF in particular, but about European airlines in general which tend to favor Ai
51 CF-CPI: The AF 767 was a legacy of the UTA merger, the latter having purchased several of these. I recall reading that AF thought highly enough of the 767s t
52 mandala499: After some looking... AF had 767s from 1991 to 2003... The 762s were from UTA's Aeromaritime subsidiary. Aeromaritime had 3 767-300ERs at the time of
53 workhorse: AFAIK, the 340-300 burns less fuel than the 777-200ER for the same trip. The reason for which some airlines prefer(red) the 772 was not its lesser fue
54 luckyone: Premerger Northwest Airlines comes to mind. At the time of the merger with Delta their passenger fleet was over 50% Airbus. Air France's Boeing fleet
55 LY777: I didn't know that! That must have been cool!
56 CF-CPI: My thinking exactly, but I have never seen a picture of it. I noted it in an AF timetable - back in the day when they were actually printed on hard c
57 Viscount724: And they would never have operated those if the merger with UTA hadn't occurred. I believe those aircraft were originally ordered by UTA prior to the
58 yyz717: Really? Try Frontier, US Airways, Virgin America, Spirit, JetBlue. All overwhelmingly (or 100%) Airbus customers. The 767's were inherited. No 777's
59 LY777: I do agree. How many major European airlines all-Boeing? I can only think of FR. Norwegian will get Airbus a/c soon...
60 airbazar: It must piss off a lot of people that AF is one of the most loyal Boeing customers and yet, depite all the evidence some people still insist on tryin
61 Azure: I would not compare AF with LCCs or regional airlines. AF is neither. As for US Airways, they had no interest in Airbus before the 2000s... So my sta
62 7BOEING7: Your opinion. If the A320 was that superior Boeing would have shipped the 737 NewGen rigs off to China (as was explored) and let it die a slow death.
63 HoMsaR: Read what he wrote. For 10 years, the A320 was superior to the 737. That's how Airbus managed to win orders from carriers such as United (who was a v
64 Viscount724: The Mercure wasn't a 737 Classic equivalent. It had much shorter range and could never have been a 737 substitute by the majority of 737 customers fo
65 Viscount724: What agenda are you referring to? History is very clear that AF only became a 767 operator by default due to their merger with UTA.
66 mandala499: We could play a little here... with UTA. Why did UTA order 767s and not A306s, A313s and A330s? It would suit their African routes well. I remember ba
68 LY777: If you are interested, I have found a video of AF 767: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ9kwjciDcQ
69 802flyguy: IIRC, the bad blood between Boeing and US following the USAir 427 crash had a great deal to with that. Even in the face of mounting evidence of 737 r
70 trex8: Airlines which want to survive are not sentimental. Such incidents while causing bad feelings are short lived. Making bad business decisions for sent
71 802flyguy: Not to start an A vs B war, Trex, are you saying that going Airbus was bad move for US?
72 Stitch: I believe he is saying that US stopped buying Boeing aircraft not because of US427, but because Airbus was the more compelling choice (for whatever r
73 802flyguy: Perhaps. But the rancor was pretty bad. A great many folks at US, rank and file as well as upper management, were very bitter at the Boeing "pilot er
74 Azure: We can agree on this formulation : AF was a 767 operator by default. But I had to disagree with your former wording in reply 57 : "And they would nev
76 Azure: I believe the order is not finalized yet... If not, my mistake ! But that would make my statement even more valid !
77 Polot: They firmed the 787 order last December. The A350 order is yet to be firm (unless they have have recently done so within the past couple of weeks), a
78 justinlee: 340 is a plane with 5 APU while 777 is a plane with 2 real engines.
79 Azure: Correct ! I have done some research on my side. AF/KL firmed the 787 earlier this year. They are due to find an agreement with RR in January 2013, wh
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