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Alitalia On Verge Of Bankruptcy - Again  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24858 posts, RR: 46
Posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 38818 times:

Several financial stories out this weekend that Alitalia has yet again run into deep financial troubles.

Ahead of planned January 12 shareholder deadline there is talk the carrier which has accumulated €735mil in losses the last 4-years might need to be either renationalized, or find new investors. Current Alitalia shareholders have not been able to find the cash needed to recapitalize it.

The ongoing economic slump and high oil prices combined with relentless competition in Europe from LCCs and train service has seen the core Alitalia airline operation be loss making. The carrier 2012 loss has been running €150mil more than 2011.

One of the options being considered is asking Air France which has a 25% stake in Alitalia to acquire full control at a heavily discounted price while injecting capital to keep the company afloat.

Multiple stories:
http://en.europeonline-magazine.eu/i...uble-again-report-says_255990.html
http://www.brecorder.com/world/europ...on-verge-of-bankruptcy-report.html
http://www.france24.com/en/20121221-alitalia-verge-bankruptcy-report

=


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
184 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSInGAPORE_AIR From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13738 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 38857 times:

As a person who foolishly allowed himself to be a paying passenger of Alitalia and subsequently experience and witness a shockingly poor standard of service rendered by Alitalia staff in June 2012 I am not surprised and struggle to drum up any sympathy whatsoever.

Never again.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2127 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 38748 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
One of the options being considered is asking Air France which has a 25% stake in Alitalia to acquire full control at a heavily discounted price while injecting capital to keep the company afloat.

What, exactly, is the benefit for AF/KLM?


User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 38724 times:

I hope Air France takes it over on condition that it has a free hand to make the changes necessary to make the business viable. If Berlusconi were to come back, I don't suppose that would be allowed. I think the imminence of an election paralyses everything for a few months.

User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2760 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 38529 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
One of the options being considered is asking Air France which has a 25% stake in Alitalia to acquire full control at a heavily discounted price while injecting capital to keep the company afloat.

I'm not sure why AF would want to take over Alitalia. Even if they get it at a bargain price they have large losses. Not something to take on when AF is struggling to make money itself.
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 38193 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 4):
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
One of the options being considered is asking Air France which has a 25% stake in Alitalia to acquire full control at a heavily discounted price while injecting capital to keep the company afloat.

I'm not sure why AF would want to take over Alitalia. Even if they get it at a bargain price they have large losses. Not something to take on when AF is struggling to make money itself.
Blue

No point in injecting capital to keep it afloat as it is - it will just sink again.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 38088 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Alitalia On Verge Of Bankruptcy - Again  

And the winner of "Least Surprising News Item" goes to...

Quoting Polot (Reply 2):
What, exactly, is the benefit for AF/KLM?

Looking at one huge loss on a balance sheet is less depressing than two, maybe?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26853 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 38028 times:

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 1):
As a person who foolishly allowed himself to be a paying passenger of Alitalia and subsequently experience and witness a shockingly poor standard of service rendered by Alitalia staff in June 2012 I am not surprised and struggle to drum up any sympathy whatsoever.

Cant disagree there even though it would be a shame to the staff who would loose their jobs. Giving away nearly free tickets has not helped either.   Their IT leaves a lot to the imagination.


User currently offlineAquila3 From Italy, joined Nov 2010, 251 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 37800 times:

I am not a fan of Alitalia at all, especially since we are paying its failures with our pockets.
II mean our ones, not somebody's else in EU.
Also I would think is normal that a Government would try to keep a strategic asset like a national airline alive whenever possible, of course. The fact that Government would not be the one that other, better, countries would choose for us, I am sorry to say, at the moment it works like this, we have not yet given up our sovereignty to them.
I will dare to say that a weak Italy is even useful for some of our EU "friends".

What surprised me is who got AZ last time.
Colaninno, for what I know, is far to be a friend of the then Prime Minister Berlusconi. He is openly involved in the opposite Left Party, now named PD. If PD wins the next February elections chance is that he will be our Minister for Industry (may God save us).

About assets, once you get rid of all the people you do not need (hope it does not happen) AZ has a quite modern fleet and has some interesting slots and rights, especially the lucrative LIN-FCO route and in MXP. The area around MXP is STILL one of the most productive in EU, with a population and a product comparable to some small rich European Nations. Rome , especially if you put Florence together, on the other hand, STILL has some double-digital percentage of the worlds cultural heritage and that means a lot of leisure traffic that can be pursued.
So whoever will get such assets, could get profit from them. Myself I doubt that AF ( the most probable taker) will, however.



chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
User currently onlinea36001 From Australia, joined Sep 2012, 167 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 37607 times:

Would it be better if Alitalia was actually wound up, and a new carrier started with absolutely no connection to the old airline? And I mean no previous management at any level, government or financial connection to the original airline.   Happy Christmas  

User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 37546 times:

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 8):
Also I would think is normal that a Government would try to keep a strategic asset like a national airline alive whenever possible, of course.

I don't understand. What makes AZ a strategic asset? They provide a service to the economy that other airlines could provide with less risk of the service becoming unavailable due to financial problems preventing the airline from providing the service.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 8):
About assets, once you get rid of all the people you do not need (hope it does not happen)

Why do you hope AZ keeps people it does not need? Makes it more likely for AZ to lose money and go bust, doesn't it?


User currently offlineAquila3 From Italy, joined Nov 2010, 251 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 37368 times:

Quoting art (Reply 10):
I don't understand. What makes AZ a strategic asset? They provide a service to the economy that other airlines could provide with less risk of the service becoming unavailable due to financial problems preventing the airline from providing the service.

Yeah, tell this to our Hungarian friends.
I understand your thinking, but a *WORKING* national carrier is and asset for a Country, especially if your economy is in competition with others that have carriers that are not 100% private.

then:

Quoting art (Reply 10):
About assets, once you get rid of all the people you do not need (hope it does not happen)

Why do you hope AZ keeps people it does not need? Makes it more likely for AZ to lose money and go bust, doesn't it?

Come on! It's Christmas......



chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8439 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 37258 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 2):
What, exactly, is the benefit for AF/KLM?

Well they're already broke, so the benefit for AF/KLM would be to hemorrhage even more cash.

Quoting a36001 (Reply 9):

That's the best thing that could happen but it won't. The Italians need to take the same approach as the Hungarians took.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8212 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 37239 times:

Quoting art (Reply 3):
I hope Air France takes it over on condition that it has a free hand to make the changes necessary to make the business viable.

I'm not sure AF is in a position to take over anything considering their own very precarious economic situation. If it wasn't for KLM bailing them out, AF would be even worse than they are.


User currently offlineAquila3 From Italy, joined Nov 2010, 251 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 37019 times:

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 12):
That's the best thing that could happen but it won't. The Italians need to take the same approach as the Hungarians took.

Are you sure that what happened to Malev was what Hungarians wanted? Or it just happened out of their control?
And I do not think that the result is so good to boast it around, for the business especially.

Coming back to AZ, again, I hate to support them (I come from the MXP area, so I have some reason), but I am trying to be realist. AZ , with his power and connections has burnt almost everything left of the Italian Aviation. Missing AZ we are almost left with FR and U2, worse than Hungary. Not saying that those LCC are bad (indeed I like U2 enough) , but this is a Country that needs a lot more, just have a cold look to the numbers.

Quoting a36001 (Reply 9):

Would it be better if Alitalia was actually wound up, and a new carrier started with absolutely no connection to the old airline? And I mean no previous management at any level, government or financial connection to the original airline.

Also on the practical side, to "fire" all the management (that for what I remember includes a lot of pilots), fire or furlough all the workers in excess, and start from scratch is very difficult in a country highly unionized, where the protection of the workers at the highest level is seen as matter of civilization. It would drive only in a huge stall, and bloody social conflicts. So, as much it looks undesirable or difficult, I believe the best way is still, again, to try to "fix" Alitalia.

[Edited 2012-12-23 15:47:57]

[Edited 2012-12-23 15:49:17]


chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 36026 times:

AZ has to develop FCO the way TK developed IST and KL developed AMS etc. In the domestic market - LCC's are eating up profit margins. There's no future in this business. LH/AF/BA are all immune to this - the domestic/short haul product has to be the cost of feeding a sustainable size of long-haul flights.

It always shocks me to see AZ hasn't fully developed long-haul links. There's no doubt that long-haul transfer traffic, and the Italian market is generally high leisure in characteristic. However that can easily be offset by having smaller premium cabins and higher density on its aircraft. (see KLM model)

AZ should be in markets like Shanghai, Hong Kong, Dubai, Delhi, Jo'burg, Montreal, San Francisco, Washington. If it doesn't pursue this type of strategy, they will be too sensitive to ULCCs, and the variety of other long-haul players eating market share away (i.e. TK/QR/EK etc).

FCO is in a very strategic geographic position - especially as a hub connecting middle east/africa/sub-continent from North America/Europe/South America.

Either AZ makes an effort to become a "global" player - or it's just another airline pursuing a long agonizing decline towards bankruptcy


User currently onlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 36035 times:

Politics aside. Italy could have one hell of an airline if business were put first and the entire Rome-hub nonsense was put aside.

A good hub at MXP would be well-located (both geographically and economically) and we're talking about a country of nearly 60M people. Come on, if business is sound, there's a room for a competitive Italian carrier, no comparison with tiny Hungary (all do respect).


User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 35961 times:

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 16):
A good hub at MXP would be well-located (both geographically and economically) and we're talking about a country of nearly 60M people. Come on, if business is sound, there's a room for a competitive Italian carrier, no comparison with tiny Hungary (all do respect).

This is precisely the problem with the Italian aviation market. Rome is the bigger market - but the majority of the high-yield pax are in MXP which is not such a big market in terms of traffic/volume. Look at the American/Asia majors having difficulty establishing MXP services.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 35959 times:

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 16):
A good hub at MXP would be well-located (both geographically and economically) and we're talking about a country of nearly 60M people. Come on, if business is sound, there's a room for a competitive Italian carrier,

That's the case for AF/KL buying them. The trick is getting government interference out and cutting costs. If they can get ownership of the major airlines in France, Italy, and the Netherlands and rightsize (read slash dramatically) the whole thing, they could end up with a powerful European airline that can form a triumvirate with Lufthansa and IAG.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 35803 times:

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 14):
Are you sure that what happened to Malev was what Hungarians wanted? Or it just happened out of their control?
And I do not think that the result is so good to boast it around, for the business especially.

Well just look back at the reaction of the Hungarian people after MA folded, the country basically went to into a state of national mourning. The EU's regulations on state funds being used to keep MA alive coupled with leasing companies, airports etc demanding their money was the last straw for MA. Their was a lot of politics involved as well, as I'm sure is the case in Italy. MA was on the road to recovery when they pulled the plug, it could have been saved.


The news stories on AZ don't sound very promising. I read very similar stories about MA a few months before their demise. But what are AZ's options for survival? Obviously but management and labour must take some major cuts, but could AZ survive if they stopped or severely downsized their long-haul ops?

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 35547 times:

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 16):
Politics aside. Italy could have one hell of an airline if business were put first and the entire Rome-hub nonsense was put aside.

A good hub at MXP would be well-located (both geographically and economically) and we're talking about a country of nearly 60M people. Come on, if business is sound, there's a room for a competitive Italian carrier, no comparison with tiny Hungary (all do respect).

MXP is not the solution and it will never be. FCO is not AZ's problem.


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2916 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 35496 times:

I hadn't been keeping up with AZ's performance in a while, but I had thought they had done a decent job tryint to turn things around a while back.

The fact that the AZ group of airlines seems to include just about every airline brand in the country, it certainly will be interesting to see what happens if things do end up badly. Will be a large void to fill.


User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1020 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 35418 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 20):

If FCO is not AZ's problem than what is? FCO is poorly located to be a hub, and even though MXP does not have the traffic volume of FCO it can still be profitable by being a hub airport relying on connecting traffic to central and eastern Europe.


User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 35200 times:

Quoting miaintl (Reply 22):
If FCO is not AZ's problem than what is? FCO is poorly located to be a hub, and even though MXP does not have the traffic volume of FCO it can still be profitable by being a hub airport relying on connecting traffic to central and eastern Europe.

How can AZ be effective when the majority of pax destined for Italy want to arrive at FCO. By giving up FCO - it's giving up to the bulk of foreign carriers overflying MXP to land at FCO.

The problem remains that AZ's domestic/short-haul product is bleeding very heavily. AZ needs a larger long-haul fleet / product to compensate for this. It's a race to the bottom. If you're a legacy carrier either you try to compete with the global players - or get swallowed up. There's no reason why AZ is not in Jo'burg, Hong Kong, Shanghai, San Fran, Montreal, Mexico, Dubai. It needs to be in these markets as the good old days of profit on FCO-CTA, FCO-LIN are not around for long.

[Edited 2012-12-23 18:53:34]

User currently offlinemiaintl From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 1020 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 34981 times:

Quoting flyyul (Reply 23):

That's what the situation was back in the old AZ before 2008. Back then MXP got the connecting traffic and FCO got the O&D passengers and it worked well. AZ cannot expand to other long-haul destinations because its short/medium haul feed at FCO is very small. MXP is just the better airport to establish a Legacy carrier that relies on a hub and spoke system.


25 LAXintl : AZ being based MXP will never work as long as Milan is split with two competing airports. People don't want to trek out MXP, when you have LIN right i
26 C010T3 : It's conjuctural! Haven't you observed how almost all European airlines are going through difficulties and some are even being very pro-active in dea
27 IndianicWorld : In many ways, AZ is suffering having 2 important cities in their country who both deserve good service, but can not sustain a dual hub operation. By i
28 flyyul : Based on what exactly? The principal problem behind MIL is the fact all domestic/short haul pax go to LIN. MXP becomes a transit traffic only airport
29 flyyul : It is if each hub has a different focus. If MXP/FCO are fighting for same customers that's where the difficulty begins. At MIL all local short/mid ha
30 Post contains links and images lightsaber : Where is the money going to come from to save AZ again? After reading this thread, I am more of the opinion if something major doesn't change, they wi
31 flyyul : Only in that it is one location. A high premium O&D traffic is a far better start to a new hub. if MXP is so high-premiun - why have most US major
32 BMI727 : I think AF/KLM should bring Alitalia into the fold and scrap any idea of an international hub in Italy. Cut Alitalia down to a more or less local Ita
33 Byrdluvs747 : Where is AF or the Italian govt going to get the money to buy out AZ? Why would it be a shame when the employees don't seem too concerned with providi
34 Rafabozzolla : Well, I think it is similar to the situation at FRA (in a smaller scale, of course), how much local traffic does it generate? And LH is fine ignoring
35 asctty : Many people talk of the importance of keeping a national flag carrier afloat. Unfortunately, AZ is a more of a national embarrassment than a flag bear
36 Hywel : Haha, I see that you took advantage too! I got LHR-FCO-OTP-LIN-LHR for 2 euros incl. all taxes. Plus a few other trips...
37 Post contains images lightsaber : Then perhaps Italy has no airport viable as a hub. I believe MXP would be with the inner airport closed (providing far better connecting traffic). Ot
38 bueb0g : And this is based on what? Experiences with a few cabin crew or customer service agents? It's unfair to paint all the employees with the same brush,
39 IndianicWorld : Speaking from a point of view of an ideal world viewpoint, what you say is true, but in the case of any company, each experience often becomes their
40 Azure : Woohoo ! Wake up ! This triumvirate already exists and AF/KL is part of it. Passenger traffic : LH/LX/OS group : 90 M / AF/KL group : 75 M / IAG : 50
41 Post contains images PanHAM : Not reading all this, the day when any carrier, regardless from which country, should buy a part or the whole of AZ, should be the day when Italian un
42 r2rho : I thought AZ had been doing better after privatisation and merger with Air One...? What's the reason for this now? Who is telling the truth? In any ca
43 Post contains images EricAY05 : I'm kind of tired of people bashing airlines. For some passengers nothing seems to be good enough. Unfortunately my experience with AZ is very limited
44 usdcaguy : Is AZ held back by a lack of corporate traffic opportunity? Other carriers are based in business centers that are far more important than Rome. Yes, A
45 Post contains images airbazar : There is hope for AZ but it requires some political will. Ironically enough, they can look in the mirror and see TAP circa 1995, and follow a similar
46 brindabella : A few years ago my daughter & myself took an AZ flight Cairo-Rome. After a severely abbreviated service, the cabin crew settled-down to some seri
47 rcair1 : Or close down. Politicians get to spend more money they do not have, deserve or are entitled to. They get to say they "saved" it. To the customer, pu
48 SInGAPORE_AIR : Having said the above, I plan to take Alitalia to court in Q1 next year. Hopefully they survive long enough to pay me out !
49 Post contains images LAXintl : I think the proper hub opportunity has come and gone for AZ. Besides the geographic, economic, and demographic issues present with Italy, I think the
50 migair54 : We usually talk about poor services standards but Cabin crew is only guilty in a small slice of the big cake, if they are like that is because they ar
51 Azure : Besides nationalism, governements may look at a national airline, whether state-owned or public, as a strategic asset for several reasons : - Sociall
52 airbazar : You're not looking at it from an economics point of view but rather from a consumer point of view, and a limited one at that. Althought other airline
53 flyyul : You're telling me that a country of 60 million people, one of the most touristic regions of the world and still one of the top economies of the world
54 LAXintl : Profitably yes. AZ as a network carrier cannot survive carrying simply tourist. That is the business of charter carriers, or carriers with lower cost
55 Post contains images lightsaber : Unfortunately that is what must be considered. How is AZ going to create positive value for an investor? I didn't mean to imply you thought AZ should
56 flyyul : Scheduled effectively - one can access all of Eastern Europe, the Mediterranean, Africa, Middle East, Subcontinent - even South east asia via FCO. No
57 brilondon : This is what I was thinking. OK. Wait three months and lose another 30 million Euros and have a nice Christmas. The did not want it to happen, but it
58 BMI727 : SN works as a smaller member of Lufthansa group without a major hub for connections. Just cut Alitalia down to the size it needs to be to serve Italy
59 Aquila3 : OK, I will risk my part (0.50 Euro). Have a nice Christmas, in the meantime.
60 Post contains images lightsaber : Or expand at MUC. If MUC ever builds another runway (or two), it could serve those markets even better with superior connections. The issue is there
61 ComeAndGo : Thats not true. People were willing to trek out to MXP if the connection would work but like in classic italian fashion it doesn't work. MXP is 50 km
62 airbazar : There's some logic to that but your example is flawed. For starters SN has a hub in BRU where it offers both intra-Europe and long haul destinations.
63 Viscount724 : FCO is too far south to serve as a good connecting hub for North America and most of Europe. To most points in Asia, connecting at FCO usually means
64 PanHAM : The music plays in northern Italy for which MUC is indeed the closest and better hub. Most cities in Northern Italy are linked with MUC by LH and main
65 LJ : Or 15 years ago in the days of the KL - AZ joint venture.
66 Post contains images PlymSpotter : What are their options likely to be? I have a number of flights with them in the first quarter of 2013, so impending bankruptcy is a bit worrying! Dan
67 Post contains images Semaex : Either that or just accept that Italy has been left out of the European race to longhaul. MAD/LHR, CDG/AMS, FRA/ZRH. No space for MXP/FCO I'm afraid.
68 lollomz : I really hope we (italians) will not pay a second time for the management errors..... time will tell about AZ.
69 Post contains images BMI727 : That may not be an option for Italians. Germany, on the other hand, might be on the hook.
70 FlyingSicilian : How can they still be tanking that bad domestically? With Windjet killed off they have much more of the market to themselves and prices from the south
71 Aquila3 : Care to elaborate?
72 Azure : An entry of EY in the capital of AZ cannot be ruled out at this stage : AF/KL currently own 25% of AZ and AF/KL want (need ?) to intensify their part
73 Post contains images lightsaber : Split hubs always result in the close in airport being preferred for short flights and thus 'robbing' the outer airport of connections. Eventually Mi
74 flyyul : FCO is in a very strategic geographic location to build flows from Middle East / Subcontinent via FCO to Europe/North America. Couple this - with ver
75 MillwallSean : I fail to see how FCO is in a good position for this? Who would connect in FCO when going between the middle east and Europe? Its a pretty decent det
76 Viscount724 : As already mentioned in my Reply 63, FCO is too far south to be a logical connecting point for most of those markets. FCO's reputation as a convenien
77 flyyul : Based on what? Consult AZ's traffic numbers for their intercont services - a strong portion connects to the Middle East, Eastern Europe, Southern Ita
78 baw716 : As an ex-Alitalia manager who operated SFO-MXP (quite successfully prior to 9/11), I have some strong feelings on this subject. Rafabozzolla is absol
79 LAXintl : Saw story that suggest AZ should be exploring tie up with with Air France and Etihad. AZ would basically become a intra-European airline with focus on
80 Viscount724 : I was referring specifically to your statement that FCO is a good connecting hub for North America and Europe to the Middle East and Asia. Can you gi
81 flyyul : FCO is a fantastic hub for traffic to the Balkans, Greece, Turkey, Egypt, Tunisia, Lebanon, Israel, Iran etc. AZ is one of top producers on ODs such a
82 LAXintl : Funny you give the examples you do, as I was recently reviewing this. Here are some AZ markets shares from YYZ based on O&D. TIA - 30.4% (AZ happ
83 Polot : Out of all those pairs, FCO is in a better location than FRA in exactly one: YYZ-CAI (by a mere 12 mi). Granted for most of those routes FRA's advant
84 flyyul : BA/LX/LH out of MUC don't participate much in this market. In fact it's TK/AZ/AF and a little of LH FRA that participates in the Levant/Mediterranean
85 Post contains links LAXintl : Here is a story (which AZ is denying) involving state railway company investing in Alitalia as part of a partnership with Air France. Alitalia denies
86 lollomz : In this case, once again, italians will pay the bill..... sad, really sad.......
87 Post contains links LAXintl : News out today that AF/KL are in advance talks tom exercise their option to acquire remaining shares in AZ. Apparently AF/KL has offered current share
88 Post contains links lightsaber : Costs are the issue, including airport efficiency. MUC, if it ever adds runways and a 2nd terminal, would eliminate the need to hub in Italy for long
89 flyyul : Typically want to put a hub where there's strong demand for the surrounding region, decent premium traffic, and a reasonable geographic catchment area
90 Viscount724 : Do you mean 3rd terminal? MUC already has 2 terminals. LH and Star Alliance carriers use T2 which opened in 2003. Everyone else uses the original T1
91 Post contains links LAXintl : Future of AZ becoming an issue in the upcoming elections. Mr Berlusconi says he would oppose a AF take over -- more specifically he says "If Alitalia
92 flyyul : Congrats Nonno Berlusconi. The French really prevented KLM from growing into markets like Calgary, Chengdu, Huangzhou, Xiamen, Fukuoka, Lima. AF/KL in
93 mercure1 : What a headache. Already troubled AF considers more challenges before it manages even to figure out how cleaning up its own financial mess. I'm not su
94 LAXintl : Ha ha, match made in heaven. I can see good synergy between AF and AZ, however I tend to agree things might be very messy under a single umbrella with
95 Aesma : IIRC Alitalia was already in the same position during the last Italian elections, with Berlusconi saying he would find backers for the airline...
96 art : Reported in UK that Berlusconi is not seeking to be prime minister. IMO that reduces the risk of proposals to restructure Alitalia being blocked.
97 Post contains links Azure : The scenario I imagined in my reply 72 seems to be more and more likely : according to the French Newspaper "Les Echos", EY would "help" AF to take co
98 Post contains links LAXintl : Sounds like the outgoing Italian government strongly encourage a closer AZ linkup with AF. Corrado Passera, the Minister of Industry says "Italy has a
99 Post contains links LAXintl : To help raise money and allow stockholders to defer need to recapitalize, AZ board has approved plans to spin-off the Mille Miglia program with valuat
100 Post contains links Azure : I wonder if, once this spin-off is done, AF/KL could buy the Mille Miglia program and merge it with Flying Blue. There is a rather "strange" article
101 r2rho : That is in fact quite likely. It is exactly the same move as AB has just done by selling its FF program to EY - effectively getting an additional cas
102 Wisdom : Who is going to pay 250 millions for a mileage program? I said it a long time ago, AZ's biggest mistake was to position its hub at FCO. Most of the fl
103 Azure : EY just paied 200 millions € for Air Berlin's Topbonus...
104 flyyul : Nonsense. Where do you get your numbers? A small portion of Milano traffic transits to FCO with the exception of the South America flights.
105 Wisdom : Nonsense yourself. I suggest that you take a good read at my post before you comment next time. If you look at the flows of AZ mainline flights origin
106 flyyul : Your claim again has no substance. There's more desire by foreign carriers to be at FCO than MXP. Rome is the bigger market.
107 Wisdom : You are funny. AZ should definitely not define their hub by the desire of foreign competing airlines. Rome is the bigger market in your dreams. Milan
108 Post contains links Azure : Despite your screen name, you seem quite assertive. Do you have any figures showing O&D traffic in Rome is way below Milan ? It is obvious than M
109 LAXintl : Per a Lufthansa study I have, Northern Italy is almost twice the air travel market size compared to the Rome area, however when it comes to airports,
110 Wisdom : Sorry but I have to completely reject your argument. The reason is because you're looking at it from a purely theoretical perspective, and not from t
111 Viscount724 : AC's Aeroplan loyalty program was sold for something like $600 million in two stages a few years ago.
112 Aquila3 : Could you elaborate a little bit, possibly in civilized terms? For what I know, MXP is connected by 2 different highways (A8 and A4) from Milan, have
113 Wisdom : MXP is too far from the city and from the Milan periferica. In quiet hours you're lucky to do it in 1 hour, if it's busy, you're looking at 2-3 hours.
114 LAXintl : Yes a single airport would help airline operations in Milan. Without getting into the LIN vs MXP debate however, I still don't see even a single airp
115 Wisdom : Definitely not in FCO, but why not in Milan? If AZ can establish a solid hub in Milan, they can compete much better against competing hubs such as MU
116 baw716 : Once again, I'll draw on my experience from 1998-2002 when I was running AZ in SFO. At the time, AZ was attempting to push MXP as its principal hub. T
117 lightsaber : I'm afraid that is likely. However, MXP should be able to serve within narrowbody range a good market. AZ must adopt a significantly different strate
118 Aquila3 : I was living in the area for more than 30 years., I worked there for a while and around it for most of my time. It is abosolutely an exaggeration. It
119 Post contains links LAXintl : AZ is seeking €200mil loans to help through early part of the year and avoid need for recapitazilation. Also sale of Mile Miglia would help delay fu
120 miaintl : Constantly pumping money into a sinking ship will not help AZ. Their problem is FCO.
121 Post contains links LAXintl : Reports are Alitalia has hired US firm Boston Consulting as advisers for a possible merger with Italian state railway Ferrovie dello Stato. Also AZ CE
122 miaintl : I think AF is the best option for AZ. I dont think SU is a good partner considering they are also a government run airline. Of course the downside of
123 miaintl : Who do you guys think is the best partner that AZ should hook-up with? Im still going with AF/KL though i am interested in hearing other people's opin
124 Post contains links LAXintl : Now news out CEO Andrea Ragnetti might quit and has apparently just negotiated a €2mil severance package. This might become official at the board of
125 miaintl : I have a feeling that if AZ does survive this time, it would become a very different airline a year from now. I think its long-haul days are quickly c
126 Post contains links LAXintl : Board has approved a €150mil convertible loan to boost liquidity. Now awaits shareholder vote on February 22nd. Alitalia Board Approves EUR150 Milli
127 Post contains links LAXintl : Board meeting next week. Topic to be covered apparently; o 2013 budget to be approved. Forecast €200mil loss. o CEO Andrea Ragnetti will be asked to
128 art : Anything in there to move the company towards viability?
129 mrcomet : AZ is in trouble for absolutely the worse service on continental Europe. Nothing will change that. They are always on strike. I bought a ticket once a
130 miaintl : I wonder if AZ will eventually move its headquarters back to MXP now that it will get a new CEO. I heard news that AF is not interested in purchasing
131 flyyul : Right - just when your finances are in dire condition - go with an expensive move to MXP while LIN is sucking up all the high-yield traffic.
132 miaintl : Close LIN and make MXP Milan's sole airport then problem solved. LIN can remain open to general aviation and low-cost traffic.
133 Post contains links 777 : This was probably the case with the old AZ. The new one has dramatically improved the hard and soft product as well as the on time index. Look here a
134 miaintl : One way of fixing this problem is transferring the short haul connecting traffic to MXP, which is better located for connections throughout Europe.
135 flyyul : What an amazing idea! Could you believe that all of those smart people who work at Alitalia (with years of experience and grad degrees etc) could not
136 LAXintl : This is what they had before. = failure. They ended up running dual Milan hubs that compete against each other. Low yield transfer traffic and half e
137 miaintl : Which is why closing LIN is the best option. MXP should be Milan's sole airport and LIN should be left to general aviation and government traffic. Plu
138 Azure : Breaking News : the chief executive of Alitalia, Andrea Ragnetti, has just resigned. The reasons have not been specified. Alitalia announced earlier i
139 LAXintl : Its been coming for several weeks. See....
140 777 : The break even he was referring to was related to the fourth quarter only!
141 miaintl : Ahhh the sad saga of AZ, an airline that should have died 5 years ago.
142 Post contains links 777 : According to the Austrian newspaper Der Standard, Niki Lauda is in talks to become the new AZ's CEO... Link in Italian http://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/
143 miaintl : A non-Italian running AZ?!? This will be interesting.
144 Post contains images aloges : In case there's any truth to that, we may expect a sale of Alitalia within two years - Lauda Air: 14 years to sale, NIKI: eight years, minus another
145 Post contains links Azure : May be another episode of the "sad saga of AZ", indeed... I wonder wether AFKL which owns 25% of AZ would accept a new LCC in Europe... Der Standard
146 brilondon : First they need to plug the leakage, then determine how many people it would take for the operation to be profitable on a limited number of runs. Thi
147 Azure : According to various sources (and in particular AZ main shareholder, AF), the issue is not AZ cost structure "now one of the lowest in Europe", but t
148 Hywel : It would help if they stopped offering so many crazy promotions, and closed all the loopholes in their booking system allowing open jaw flights to Be
149 Post contains images Azure : Lol ! I have heard of these bugs. But AZ thought it was just more simple to axe Beijing than fix its booking system
150 miaintl : I still believe the reason that AZ is not attracting as many customers is becuase of where their hub is located. They cannot attract a healthy premium
151 777 : Absolutely not: since JAN2009 AZ is 100% owned by private investors!
152 realsim : I am quite sure this would be blocked by the European Comission.
153 Post contains images PanHAM : Well, he speaks Italian, knows the country quite well but he has an excellent full time job at Daimer Benz F1 racing, AFAIK. Would be difficult to do
154 jumpjets : Also in Milan LIN is not exactly an airport that I would chose to use if possible - having used it for the first time last September I was very surpr
155 Post contains images 777 : In addition to that, Niki Lauda is still considered a superstar in Italy, due to his victories with Ferrari in the '70s: I wouldn't be surprised to s
156 Post contains images Azure : You are correct ! It is quite annoying to read such nonsense as : when the information can be easily checked on the web : (Source : alitalia corporat
157 brilondon : What are you talking about? What pensions? Are they still giving all their employees private pensions? If they are let go, then they have to find ano
158 Azure : In most European countries when you loose your job you get an unemployment pension from a government organisation, indeed. You make me smile, thank y
159 Post contains links 777 : This is not true as since almost a year there is Italo, the first private owned high speed train service in Italy. http://www.italotreno.it/EN/Pages/
160 LO231 : Please help me. I am flying to VCE in June, the cheapest ticket from BRU was AZ- and now I don't know! Do I risk it?
161 Post contains images LO231 : Any chance I will get on my flights? BRU-FCO-VCE-MXP-BRU in June. Or should I look for alternatices?
162 miaintl : Not to mention the fact that FCO's geographic location sucks. Milan may have less traffic volume but its location is ideal.
163 777 : I don't think you are going to face this kind of problem. AZ just got the first tranche of a loan from its investors and this should guarantee the co
164 LO231 : Are you sure?SN is twice as much direct......
165 Post contains links LAXintl : Apparently AZ has cancelled orders for 17 A320 aircraft. Only 2 more A320s will be taken for delivery in 2014. http://www.ch-aviation.ch/portal/new...
166 Post contains images LO231 : Please tell me then that I will get a chance to fly four MadDogs accross Europe in June
167 Post contains links mercure1 : MD-80 use end already at AZ. Oct 13: Alitalia MD-80 Farewell Flight (by IDAWA Sep 25 2012 in Civil Aviation) AZ MD-80 Farewell Flight With Frecce Tric
168 ankaraflyjet : AZ annıunced in January that they would reinstate thrice weekly flights between ESB and FCO on March 25, 2013. They loaded the flghts to system and e
169 mercure1 : I think you have to forgive Alitalia. It has bigger worries these days then a small flight to Ankara. Anyhow some other planned markets also will not
170 Post contains links LAXintl : CAPA has interesting article and analysis on situation at Alitalia including info on top routes and market share. Alitalia battles for survival in 201
171 flyyul : Interesting to see that Alialia doesnt get cost benefit because its mostly flying shorter haul flying for which LCCs are eating them alive. Time for A
172 alitalia744 : A330 rumors are reduction of J to just 20 and increase Y getting A/C to a much more dense config.
173 797 : This would make perfect sense.
174 flyyul : Has to be done. Hopefully they decide to get A330-300s on lease as well. This aircraft would suit them enormously. The A330-200 was just a bad decisi
175 PanHAM : wrong thread deleted[Edited 2013-03-11 09:51:25]
176 miaintl : With a hub based in Rome you can forget all those high-yield destinations. AZ would have to rely on feed to make those routes work and FCO offers lit
177 flyyul : miaintl - I just spent the last weekend in Milan. The airport situation in Milan is unsustainable for a hub carrier. Forget Milan - that ship has sail
178 miaintl : Well they can close LIN and make MXP the sole airport of Milan as has been pointed before. LIN is the main obstacle here.
179 LAXintl : And since closing Linate is on no ones agenda, we can circle back to the beginning of this discussion and understand AZ sole hub option in Italy is st
180 Post contains images OA412 : No, no, no! You mention MXP over and over again, but that's just not going to happen. As long as LIN stays open, and that seems to be indefinitely, M
181 miaintl : AZ is a geographically challenged airline, especially now that it is based in FCO. But I think AZ's days as a long-haul carrier are quickly coming to
182 rj777 : Maybe the newly elected Pope Francis will fly Aerolineas Argentinas instead of Alitalia?
183 LO231 : I checked all possible LCCs on my planned trip to vCE or area, they all come as more expensive direct, even from EIN, I need to be in Venice not in f
184 Post contains links mercure1 : I am sure proposed service ban to flying to US is not good omen for Alitalia as summer season is around the corner. Alitalia pourrait être interdite
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