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Boeing 747SP - Will We Have It Again?  
User currently offlinemy1le From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 181 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 16532 times:

With the new 747-800 in production, what are the odds of seeing a new 747-8SP?

58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 16524 times:

Quoting my1le (Thread starter):
With the new 747-800 in production, what are the odds of seeing a new 747-8SP?

Zero.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 16516 times:

Quoting my1le (Thread starter):
With the new 747-800 in production, what are the odds of seeing a new 747-8SP?

What would it be good for? The original SP was developed to overcome range issues in the original 747. Those issues are largely gone...especially once they reactivate the tail tank on the 747-8i, it's got enough range to do almost anything you could want to do. Put another way: who would buy it and why?

Tom.


User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 16459 times:

The same chance as Boeing restarting the 757 line, none. The 747SP was a niche a/c and as technology improved the range of a/c, there was less of a need for the 747SP. Boeing did propose a new 747SP called the 747 ASB that would have used the technologies used in the 747-400 but with a shortened fuselage similar to the 747SP. No airlines were interested in it, as it was a niche a/c like the 747SP.

In this day and age, there are plenty of twin engine a/c that can do the same roles as the 747SP and carry more passengers and cargo.


User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8124 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16290 times:

The SP only sold forty-five models, even airlines that could have really used it eg Japan Air Lines to fly New York to Japan nonstop, didn't buy it. Not a successful subtype, makes the current 747-8i look like a runaway success by comparison.

So who bought it? Iran Air to fly nonstop to NY and LA (LA never happened), Qantas to fly nonstop to California, Pan Am to fly nonstop to Sydney (although with the P&Ws as opposed to QF's RRs, it almost never made it without stopping in HNL) from LA and from New York to Bahrein and Riyadh, South African Airlines to fly around Africa in the days when they couldn't overfly the continent due to their government's racist policies, Saudia to fly nonstop to NY and Washington, Syrianair for the prestige of having a pair of 747s (they didn't need the range, the longest sector they ever flew was to LHR, five hours), one VIP machine to the Iraqi government and that's about it. Did Braniff buy new? Maybe they did. Then one or two others and of course some secondhand operators (Air Mauritius, Luxair, American, TWA, United, Corsair etc).

I flew Mandarin from Taipei to Sydney in 1994 and Iran Air CGN-CGN (enthusiasts' charter by Air Events) in 2004 and LHR-IKA on the very last bookable SP flight out of Heathrow in 2009 (the Iran Air schedule changed the next day to A300 and before it changed back, IR's 747s were banned from EU airspace). Wonderful aeroplane, the most exotic and interesting of all 747s.

Any other 747SP memories?



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineElpinDAB From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 480 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16228 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 2):
especially once they reactivate the tail tank on the 747-8i, it's got enough range to do almost anything you could want to do.

What does the tail tank provide?

How would a 744 length aircraft with 748 wings/engines look? It would basically be the -SP of the current generation, but depending upon how the range/performance looks, airlines might buy...744 or even 742 sized aircraft with -8 engines and wings. Would this have better payload/range than a 772LR? Would economics permit, after hypothetical demand is met?

btw, what length of upper deck would be most efficient for a -400 sized shrink of the -8? What upper deck length is most efficient for the -8?


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1601 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16173 times:

Quoting my1le (Thread starter):
With the new 747-800 in production, what are the odds of seeing a new 747-8SP?

We've had one for several years--its called a 777-300ER. However, back in the day, B was looking at a 747 twin.


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6236 posts, RR: 31
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16167 times:
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Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
The SP only sold forty-five models, even airlines that could have really used it eg Japan Air Lines to fly New York to Japan nonstop, didn't buy it. Not a successful subtype, makes the current 747-8i look like a runaway success by comparison.

Weren´t the later versions of the 742 able to largely make up for the 747SP performance?

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
Any other 747SP memories?

I flew it many times on AR´s MEX-LIM-EZE and MEX-EZE. Of course on LIM-EZE. It had a pretty sprightly take-off performance, specially when lifting off at MEX. Inside it felt a lot like being on a DC-10 rather than on a 747. When AR moved their F cabin upstairs, sometimes in the 80s the SP kept it in the nose. For me, who am a fan of the Premium services being on the nose of the 747 that was a neat feature. The 742 had a spiral staricase, while AR´s SP had a straight one, but I suppose that was merely a result of the fact that it was built to Braniff´s specification.

I also recall circling over EZE when arriving on the Southern winter months in the wee hours of the morning and EZE being closed due to fog. Other times we would have gone straight into MVD if flying on the 742, but the SP just circled around when EZE opened which was usually by 08AM.

It was a neat plane to be aboard, but I always preferred the 742.


User currently offlinefanofjets From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1987 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 16155 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 3):
The 747SP was a niche a/c and as technology improved the range of a/c, there was less of a need for the 747SP.

It still is a niche aircraft, albeit with a very, very limited niche (given that plenty of A and B twins can do the same thing as Sutter's Balloon, in terms of range and payload). Four engines and a large fuselage, along with rock-bottom purchase prices make it good choice for scientific research and engineering applications:

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Photo © Rainer Bexten
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Photo © Geneviève Grondin




And they are used for a limited number of heads of state:

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Photo © Richard Vandervord
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Photo © Carsten Sekula


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Photo © Mehmet Mustafa Celik
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Photo © Guillaume fevrier




Iran Air and Sands use the type because of the economic embargo, and they are still cheaper to fly than a -200 series, when there is a light load (and sometimes over long, thin routes, the aircraft's original intention):

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Photo © Mehmet Mustafa Celik
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Photo © Cary Liao - AeroPX


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Photo © Senior
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Photo © Alejandro Hernández León




The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3656 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 16085 times:

The only reason the SP existed was for range related issues which were no longer an issue as of 23 years ago when the 744 was introduced.


PHX based
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 15942 times:

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 5):
What does the tail tank provide?

An extra 3300 gal of fuel. Good for about another 400-500 nm.

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 5):
How would a 744 length aircraft with 748 wings/engines look? It would basically be the -SP of the current generation, but depending upon how the range/performance looks, airlines might buy...744 or even 742 sized aircraft with -8 engines and wings.

What would they buy it for that the -8 can't already do?

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 5):
Would this have better payload/range than a 772LR?

Better payload, yes, it's bigger. Better range...probably not.

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 5):
Would economics permit, after hypothetical demand is met?

If you could fill it with premium passengers, it might work, but it would be iffy. No way would it sell enough to pay for development.

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 5):
btw, what length of upper deck would be most efficient for a -400 sized shrink of the -8?

The same length as the upper deck on the -400.

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 5):
What upper deck length is most efficient for the -8?

The length that it has now.

Tom.


User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 15827 times:

The 747SP was a half hearted response to the birds being built by Lockheed and Douglas. It clearly was not very successful.
(and a very odd aircraft to be on!)



737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3413 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 15693 times:

why not just buy a 777-200LR or 300ER and call it a day depending on what you need. Its already developed and a new 748 varient for more range would be as much or more per frame so....

User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8018 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 15672 times:

The chances of another 747SP is effectively zero. Remember, the original 747SP--which used the same engines as the 747-100--only had a range of 6,600 nautical miles, still less than the 777-200ER with is 7,200 nm range but similar pax/cargo capacity. Even fitted with modern engines, a 747SP would probably have a range of (probably) 7,400 nm, which is still less than what you get with the 777-300ER with its 7,800 nm range.

User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3299 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 15184 times:

Quoting FI642 (Reply 11):
and a very odd aircraft to be on!)

My favorite aircraft ever built, it's sexy looking, and had limited success. If I had offensive amounts of money, my first acquisition would be a 74L, refurbish to my liking and needs, then roam the world. I have taken pictures of every one I have ever seen at airports worldwide. My favorite liveries were, BN, SA, QF, TW were some of the best. Sigh, things change.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13152 posts, RR: 100
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 15134 times:
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When I read the thread title, my first thought was "yea, its called the 77L/A345." The 747SP was a plane when long range was 6,650nm. That is a range now met by a large number of widebodies (A332, 788, 77E/77L/77W, 744/748i, A380, MD-11, A343/5/6, and at this hour I'm probably forgetting one or two). Heck, the 763ER almost has the 747SP range now!

And look at the 77L, due to its lower passenger volume, its desirability is far less than the 77W.

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 5):
What does the tail tank provide?

The range to not require a shrink. As already noted, 400 to 500nm more range.

If someone wants a big (non-777 or 787) to go long haul, they would want the A380R or a high MTOW 748i. Anyone who wants the cost per flight of a 748i will demand the payload. Otherwise, they could buy a 788 in two years and fly any route a 748SP could do.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 10):
No way would it sell enough to pay for development.

   There are too many alternatives.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7496 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 14135 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
So who bought it? Iran Air to fly nonstop to NY and LA (LA never happened), Qantas to fly nonstop to California, Pan Am to fly nonstop to Sydney (although with the P&Ws as opposed to QF's RRs, it almost never made it without stopping in HNL) from LA

Actually,QF ordered the -SP for flighte to Wllington,NZ. I never read about QF's -SP'S having trouble on LAX-SYD,it was PA's with the P&W JT9D's that had troubles.



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineFlyingsottsman From Australia, joined Oct 2010, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 13757 times:

Flew the Pan Am SP from LAX to SYD and on to MEL great aircraft to ride in and I guess at the time it was a great leap as far as long haul across the Pacific went, intead of the LAX/HNL/Nandie/SYD/MEL multable stops it was one stop LAX/SYD/MEL. Great looking aircraft. The chances of the SP making a come back are as good as Aeroflot bringing back an IL62 for their long haul flights ZERO!

User currently offlinewarren747sp From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1167 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 13327 times:

Definitely feels like a private jet on the upper deck!! Especially the ones with a bar.


747SP
User currently onlineecbomberman From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2011, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 13326 times:

We have 77W and A345's for ULH nowadays.


VS343/346/744 CX744/L1101/343 MH332/333/733 BD32x/EMB 145 AK320 SQ310/77E/773/744 UA747SP/744 BA744 BI763ER/319 QF763ER
User currently offlinemy1le From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12841 times:

All good points, I like the -SP just because it is different. I was thinking - long shot but hey it would be neat to see a second form of 747 in the air.

The Sands -SPs transport who? I can't imagine they send the Boeing's and L10-11 to pick up a single 'Whale'


User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2911 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12513 times:
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The only time I flew a 747SP was on China air (I think) from Beijing to Xian. Just a few hours. It was in scary shape and there were mud footprints all over the wing. Thick mud!

Anyway, I was a bit more scared than excited. But that was 15 years ago.



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineDrmlnr1 From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12436 times:

About as likely as WN joining OW:0.00000000000%


Flying is relaxing!
User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1252 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12405 times:
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one of the above photos is the NASA SOFIA flying telescope. That airplane is an EX Pan-American SP-21 and the former United 147UA Nose 8647 acquired with the Pan-AM Pacific Division in 1986. That Same airplane also held the Round the world Speed record breifly with Captain Clay Lacey commanding,. It was later Broken by Brooke Knapp in a stripped down flying Gas-can Gulfstream. The United Record carried 100 Pax and a freakin Mercedes Benz in the fwd Pit. ( the car sold for Mega Bucks)

User currently offlinebeechnut From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 726 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12231 times:

Arguably, the 747SP of today is the 777-200LR. Both are niche aircraft that fulfill a very limited and very similar market need. Both were/are extremely capable under the standards of their day, which means the 777-200LR is way more capable than a 747SP; and it only needs two engines to do it.

Beech


25 DTWPurserBoy : Boeing itself made the SP redundant when they extended the range of the 742 and increased power on the engines. Suddenly you had an airplane with the
26 Viscount724 : Exactly. The much more capable later 742 models quickly made the SP obsolete and uneconomic, and largely explains why only 45 were built. I highly do
27 superjeff : Yes they did. They needed the range when they started flying to Asia as they did not have rights to Tokyo and had to operate via Seoul or Taipei, bot
28 United_fan : And TW bought theirs for flights to China that never were approved,too.
29 ikramerica : 747SP was not a VLA. it was a mid-sized wide body with extended range. We have those. 777, A343, A350, 789.
30 aviatorcraig : Lets not forget that when the SP was developed, ETOPS didn't exist. The L1011 and DC-10 had three engines instead of two for a reason, and the first w
31 airlinebuilder : When is the definite date for the tail fuel tank of the 748i be activated? Is it a long process for Boeing? Once its a GO, I assume it will somehow he
32 macsog6 : That is correct. I flew one from MNL-SYD several years ago and they kept in remarkable condition. By that time, 737's went to Wellington.
33 Stitch : They don't have a definite date as of yet, just some time in 2013. Chief project engineer Bruce Dickinson noted in November that the modifications ne
34 SEPilot : There is no point in an aircraft that has more range than 10,500nm, as that would carry it half way around the earth, and hence could connect any two
35 brilondon : Did PA not fly non-stop to Tokyo back in the day? Clearly with the limited payload of the smaller 747SP it would not be financially smart to have the
36 777way : Iran Air SPs operate commercially they are not VIP aircraft like the others, yes they sometimes may have been used for VIP duty thats why the pics.
37 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : What sank the final nail into the 747SP coffin was when when Pratt and Whitney made the JT9D-7Q engine or power plant available. It was a much more fu
38 TheRedBaron : On Novembre 21 there was one 747 at TIJ from ambasadors of health or something like that, It surely made my diversion from LAX a lot more interesting.
39 Post contains links and images Devilfish : Can't shake the thought that Boeing would come up with this someday..... http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...2012/07/Mid-wing%20747-160757.html The
40 NASCARAirforce : The 747SP was largely considered a failure due to the number of examples that were sold. Unfortunately, unless Boeing turns the passenger version of t
41 AirlineCritic : Indeed. Like the A388 today. It needs to turn into its fully fledged size, longer and with even more powerful engines.
42 sirloin : Is it just a case of needing more cowbell?
43 DolphinAir747 : I think TN should have some. Seriously, the chances are unfortunately close to zero.
44 DocLightning : Put it another way: you are saying that we should shrink a 747-sized aircraft to extend its range. That's what the 747SP was; a shrink with longer ra
45 Stitch : I still am of the opinion the 777-200LR has sold poorly because almost everyone who wanted a 300-seat long-haul twin already had a 777-200ER in servic
46 KC135TopBoom : No, neither the DC-10-30, nor the L-1011-500 had that kind of range back then. The B-747SP was the long haul WB of its day. I think you mean the B-77
47 lightsaber : My thoughts... there is a new 747SP called the 77L. Or consider it the A345. Either way, there is a plane in that niche that sold as well as the 747S
48 RayChuang : By the way, the reason why Boeing stopped 747SP production was that Japan Airlines didn't want the 747SP, and JL insisted on 747-200B's with larger fu
49 Kiwinlondon : Somewhere between zero and nil. Kiwinlondon
50 KC135TopBoom : The B-747SP carried about 330 pax in a one class set-up. About the same as the B-77L (314) and A-345 (313) in a 3 class set-up.
51 milesrich : What about a new DC-8, or 727?
52 lightsaber : I keep thinking about this thread and wonder, exactly what part of the long haul small density market isn't met by the 788? Or heck, for the 747SP mar
53 aviatorcraig : I remember way back when the 747SP started operating, reading that it was having having issues with its designed cruising altitude. Apparently, the SP
54 DTWPurserBoy : I believe that Syrianair is also still actively flying SP's.
55 N1120A : Actually, there is probably a greater change that Boeing would reopen the 757 line - people still can use those. Tommy Mogren's 747sp.com site is a g
56 strfyr51 : UNITED actually bought and based 2 747-222B airplanes for the JFK-NRT route N151ua and N152ua, they were 833,000lb max gross airplanes and flew with
57 Post contains links Viscount724 : Maximum certificated operating altitude for the 747SP is 45,100 ft., the same as for every other 747 model except the 748-8 (passenger) which is 43,1
58 LH707330 : While that may be true, most of the heavier 747s could not reach 45k. I read about the ozone problem a while back in Airways, they said that Pan Am h
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