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Why Lack Of ATR Carriers In North America  
User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 420 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 12 hours ago) and read 12183 times:

Why is there a seemingly worldwide demand or ATR 42/72 products worldwide there see s to be o inroads o the N A market. Many thanks and happy New Years and merry Christmas

66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (2 years 12 hours ago) and read 12195 times:

Because you're talking 20 year old technology. At one time American Eagle and ASA had a very large combined fleet. It's very simple, their time has passed...


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineJean Leloup From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2116 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 hours ago) and read 12147 times:

From what I've gleaned from previous discussions on here, the average stage length for regional prop routes in North America is considerably longer than in most other regions of the world. With a longer stage length, scheduling and economics favour faster props like the Dash-8, or regional jets, which of course have been quite prevalent for the last 15 years or so in North america.

I'm guessing that BBD may also be able to offer slightly better support to North American Carriers as well, due to its location. But that particular theory is speculative.

JL

P.S. By the way, ATR fans can always point to the exception of First Air, who operate the ATR in unthinkably hostile conditions along long routes in the Canadian arctic! Obviously they find it capable enough, and speed is perhaps less of a factor on their network, which is highly subsidized and monopolized on several routes.



Next flight.... who knows.
User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 hours ago) and read 12138 times:

What's the backlog for Atr's to Q400s?

User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15834 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 hours ago) and read 12111 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Because you're talking 20 year old technology.

They've been updated over the years.

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 2):
From what I've gleaned from previous discussions on here, the average stage length for regional prop routes in North America is considerably longer than in most other regions of the world.

Basically. Distances here are longer and as such North American airlines went whole hog into regional jets. The Q400 has found a niche, although I think that in many ways it combines the worst of jets (cost) and props (lack of speed, noise, "old" image).

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 2):
P.S. By the way, ATR fans can always point to the exception of First Air, who operate the ATR in unthinkably hostile conditions along long routes in the Canadian arctic!

The ATR is a very capable plane, although that did not keep American Eagle from moving them south after the crash in Indiana due to icing.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 hours ago) and read 12047 times:

There is nothing wrong with the ATR for a cold weather ops aircraft. It is quite successful in several areas in ice and snow weather.

However, the ATR crash in Indiana and the reaction of American and Delta to move their aircraft south pretty much sealed the aircraft fate in the US.

But you cannot discount the impact the regional jet had on the ATR market penetration.

In the US, the regional prop competed head to head with the regional jet for many of the same routes.

Jets win such battles among customers when the price of a flight on both the turboprop and the jet are the same.

You can argue all you want about economics, but passengers preference for jets is clear.


User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 hours ago) and read 11993 times:

True but the plane that crashed and one today are like night and day with technological improvements, better ice protection, different and higher operating speeds in known icing a d better fuel burn due to the better engines than those in use 15 years ago

Yes the difference in distance is great in parts of the us but back east out of " hubs " of clt, iAd? Pit, Mia, etc the distance is irevlavant.

Last note, I've only seen dash 8 variants over the years at DEN why hasn't the ATR been utilized out west? Also AE has the ATr and Saab combo going on in the past yet it seemed they never really utilized them at lax


User currently offlinecargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 hours ago) and read 11956 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Because you're talking 20 year old technology. At one time American Eagle and ASA had a very large combined fleet. It's very simple, their time has passed...

I don't know that you can really say that. The ATR's have been gradually improved over the years just like the Dash-8. I think the difference is that customers who were fond of the ATR chose regional jets as replacements, while other carriers chose the Dash-8 or started early with them (Horizon, Piedmont - both Dash-8 customers since the mid-1980s). Remember that aside from the former Colgan, Horizon, and Piedmont, Republic, American Eagle, and Commutair, there aren't many American carriers with large fleets of props anyway.

Stages in the U.S. are long, and many passengers prefer a jet to a prop (though, IMO, many would be hard pressed to tell you exactly why), so it's little surprise that those who are serving these customers in the U.S. migrated to RJ's or have reliable, long-standing prop operations with very defined networks.

I think the lack of success the ATR has had in north America has more to do with the success of the CRJ, ERJ, and E-jets than the ATR itself.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 hours ago) and read 11944 times:

Here in Australia, with similar distances, Virgin has dumped its E-jets in favour of the ATR-72.

For reasons of simple economics.


User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 hours ago) and read 11906 times:

Although not a large difference, island air has chosen o go ATR vs the Q FWIW

User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 hours ago) and read 11797 times:

Question... Does deltas new pilot agreement that capped the number of seats and size of its regional art ears address the turboprop arena at all ?

User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 hours ago) and read 11776 times:

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 6):
but the plane that crashed and one today are like night and day

Show me the physical differences for the average passenger to see and understand it is a completely different aircraft.

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 6):
I've only seen dash 8 variants over the years at DEN why hasn't the ATR been utilized out west?

ATR didn't provide the financial incentives which Bombardier provided.

Throughout the west the Dash-8 has been part of the Horizon fleet for a long, long time.

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 6):
Also AE has the ATr and Saab combo going on in the past yet it seemed they never really utilized them at lax

For most of the time the ATR fleet was flown by Executive Airlines for American Eagle. It was a complicated scope clause decision which did not make financial sense to try and use the ATR extensively except in a couple places. American Eagle let their prop fleet get horribly outdated and worn out.

I still believe any prop aircraft is going to have a very difficult time penetrating the US market. They have to be used on routes with either no jet competition, or the turboprop ticket prices are substantially lower than the same route on a jet.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7633 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 hours ago) and read 11453 times:

There is VW (Aeromar) hubbed at MEX's T2. Its fleet includes mostly ATR-42s and a few CRJ-200LRs; the former are the backbone.


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineatct From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2350 posts, RR: 38
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 hours ago) and read 11317 times:

Empire Airlines operates 10 ATR's (2-3 depending on the time based at ANC)
Mountain Air Cargo operates 19 ATR's
First Air operates 11
Cape Air operates 2 (not really NA but a US territory)
Morningstar Air Express (Canada) operates 1
Calm Air operates 8
Island Air has 1 and 7 on order
AeroMar operates 14.


Eagle (in the process), Delta Connection (ASA), and Northern Air Cargo ditched theirs.

There are a few in operation in NA just not alot compared to every other regional aircraft. In regards to icing, I work Empire Airlines (ATR 42 and 72) and they will not fly into FZDZ or FZRA conditions. Not sure if its the company op-spec's or aircraft limitation but I have had to place them into holding above the weather a few times while they wait for it to clear, or beat feet to their alternate.

atct



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4593 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 hours ago) and read 11269 times:

Continental flew many ATRs - but we're going back to the 80s/90s.

User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 hours ago) and read 11178 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 5):
However, the ATR crash in Indiana and the reaction of American and Delta to move their aircraft south pretty much sealed the aircraft fate in the US.

My sentiments exactly. They were removed from service as soon as they could be. Even after the issue was addressed, U.S. carriers avoided using the plane.



737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 hours ago) and read 11145 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 12):
Show me the physical differences for the average passenger to see and understand it is a completely different aircraft.

Who cares? The average passenger doesn't know what a plane is.

The interiors of a new ATR-72 and a new Q400 are nearly identical.


NS


User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 hours ago) and read 11108 times:

Despite all of the technological improvements made to the ATR family over the past 19 years and the economic advantage of the turboprop over the regional jet, the biggest reason the ATR is not more common in the U.S. is more than likely the American Eagle crash in 1994.

That was the crash that cemented the public perception that turboprops are unsafe and unreliable and fueled the regional jet boom in the U.S. I think there is still a lot of negative perception towards the ATR even today and that is a likely reason why the aircraft is not more popular.

I also think another reason is configuration; the ATR traditionally has the passenger boarding door at the rear of the aircraft. This makes it difficult for the aircraft to use jetways (has to be parked a certain way and only certain bridges are maneuverable enough to mate to the aircraft) whereas all regional jets and most other turboprops have the pax boarding door in the front where the jetway can be easily mated to the aircraft. While the ATR can be ordered with a front boarding door, this configuraiton isn't very common.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 hours ago) and read 11070 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 17):
The average passenger doesn't know what a plane is.

No they don't.

But a significant portion of the US passenger population thinks a high wing prop plane is likely to fall out of the sky if the weather is bad.

That crash was almost 20 years ago - but to much of the flying public over 35 or 40 - they remember just a few facts about the crash - mainly high wing, props and falling out of the sky.

My brother-in-law who barely knows a jet from a prop won't fly to his daughter's home in Charlottesville VA - because they use those 'death trap props'. He thinks the Piedmont/ US Airways Express Dash-8s are the same planes as the ATR. He will only fly Delta because they use only jets into CHO.

Last time I was in Seattle, sitting at the food court in the center of the terminal - I overheard at least a half-dozen conversations about why the airlines still fly those horrible props - two mentioned the AE ATR crash. All while looking at Horizon Q-400s.

Perception is important - more important than reality when it comes to marketing.


User currently onlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1658 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 hours ago) and read 10853 times:

2 words

Roselawn, Indiana

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Eagle_Flight_4184

Most Americans think anything with props are from a Government surplus Auction after WW2

[Edited 2012-12-24 22:58:15]

User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15834 posts, RR: 27
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 hours ago) and read 10815 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 19):
But a significant portion of the US passenger population thinks a high wing prop plane is likely to fall out of the sky if the weather is bad

I'm not sure about that. I'm not sure the public has much recollection of that accident anymore. It just wasn't the same magnitude as Pan Am 103 or TWA 800 for example. It was a big deal at the time, but I doubt that it would stop anyone from operating ATRs successfully today. I believe now the problem lies more in the image that propeller planes are old, slow, and noisy than the Roselawn crash.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 797 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 hours ago) and read 10504 times:

Are Americans really as scarred by the Eagle crash as a-netters think? After all, travellers in the Pacific NW have been happily flying Horizon for years.

User currently offlineWDLEISER From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 962 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 hours ago) and read 10505 times:

While many are talking about the 94 crash in Indiana I personally believe the fact that the ATR is slower than the Q400 and that the United States has a much lower population density vs much of world to be the major contributing factors to the lack of the ATR in the United States.

If there was an ATR that could fly close to the same speed as an ERJ while keeping the economics of a prop, it would be a killer AC here in the states. On short flights, the top speed of an aircraft really has no factor... I am thinking IAH-DAL/DFW for example. I use to fly that a lot and the flight time on the Q400 vs ERJ vs 737 was the same.

When you start flying IAH-BNA though, the flight time on an ATR becomes significantly longer than that of a flight on an ERJ. The ATR is a perfect AC for the North East and California where the population density is far greater vs the South and Midwest United States.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15834 posts, RR: 27
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 hours ago) and read 10437 times:

Quoting multimark (Reply 22):
Are Americans really as scarred by the Eagle crash as a-netters think?

I tend to think not. I would characterize the crash as having a significant role in why ATRs in service, particularly American Eagle at ORD, have largely left. However, I doubt that the accident is high on the list of reasons why ATR is not making many sales here now.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinethegoldenargosy From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 401 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 hour ago) and read 10566 times:

I find it interesting AE pulled their ATR's from ORD. While down in STL TWE (AX) was still flying ATR's.

25 bobloblaw : The question shouldn't be why so few ATRs but why so few turboprops. Q400s really haven't made much of an inroad either with only 2 airlines operating
26 RWA380 : I hear this often times too, when flying QX, it is just a prop thing, heck I heard the same comments when flying QX in the early 80's in the days of
27 PW100 : Your average passenger would not see and understand the difference between an ATR72 and a Q400. Nor the differences between an A320 and a 738, or an
28 timpdx : I am now in Burma( where there was a crash landing today) In this part of the world I am quite happy to see a turboprop. Its known and proven technolo
29 yenne09 : Pascan (Montréal-St-Hubert) has two aircrafts at the moment but they are based in Quebec city.
30 EMBQA : Not in the eyes of the traveling public
31 Viscount724 : There are 27 ATRs currently registered in Canada, 23 -42s and 4 -72s. The largest operators are First Air with 9 -42s and 2 -72s, and YWG-based Calm
32 Aesma : Concorde would win such battles easily too, the whole point is that the price should not be the same since the costs certainly aren't.
33 93Sierra : YV had old 200s flying out of PHX and some of Piedmonts 300s are very long in the tooth. In an era of risig fuel costs and sub par performance of the
34 par13del : I would say another major reason is scope and the fact that most regionals in the USA are not true independent carriers but creations of legacy carrie
35 q120 : No routes are subsidized and there is no monopoly in the north - it has been like this for a couple of years now.
36 93Sierra : And, remember the teething problems and bad rap the DC 10 had yet people continued to fly on them for decades.
37 IADCA : Your brother in law should probably also update his thinking about the airlines a bit, too. American flies E135s in and some of the US Express flight
38 rfields5421 : You asked in the original post why the aircraft hasn't gained a strong presence in North America. We have given you those reasons. You can argue why
39 93Sierra : Thanks for the replies. Is there data available see what the revenue was generated on flights where a carrier flew both props and rjs on the same rout
40 teme82 : I think that AY was the only one that has ever ordered ATR's with that configuration. And the planes went to KarAir.
41 maxpower1954 : Apparently "as quickly the economically could replace the aircraft" was over 30 years for UA, 35 years for NW and 29 years for AA. I wouldn't call th
42 rfields5421 : How many more aircraft did those airlines order after 1980? Those three airlines invested heavily in the DC-10 - AA - 66 airframes; UA - 50 airframes
43 ghYHZ : Though not registered in Canada......Air St Pierre flies scheduled ATR flights between “France” and Halifax, St. Johns, Sydney and also to Montre
44 N1120A : 20 year old technology that has been continuously updated, is incredibly rugged and an economic juggernaut. Stage length is a big issue. This is why
45 Beeski : Great reply rfields. 1994 Roselawn was blamed on the ATR, rightly or wrongly. Having flown many American Eagle ATR flights out of San Juan....I go ou
46 IADCA : I certainly didn't mean to imply that your relative is dumb, just that there are more options from CHO than there were just a few years ago. That's p
47 BMI727 : Check the price tag. There are many regional jet routes well in excess of that.
48 Viscount724 : Tell that to the over 20 operators of close to 200 Dash 8s in Canada (about 14 airlines and 7 or 8 corporate and government operators). Most of those
49 Polot : He is not saying that high wing turboprops are unsafe in winter weather, he is saying that there is a perception that high wing turboprops are unsafe
50 JBo : Part of the reason for this is that the existing generation of turboprop aircraft (Saab 340s, Dash 8-100/200/300s, EMB-120s, Beech 1900s, et. al) are
51 RDH3E : This is definitely a serious reason. Airlines in the US are moving away from ground loading, (see UA adding more jetbridges at ORD) it's not practica
52 Cubsrule : That's a pretty significant generalization, no? Airports like CLT and PHL have new-ish regional facilities with ground boarding, and there's no serio
53 RDH3E : Is it false? I agree it's a generalization, but not necessarily an incorrect one. Holding all else equal, there is ZERO reason you would choose a pla
54 Cubsrule : That's plainly true, but all else isn't equal. I'd argue that it is not a significant concern. IIRC, many or most of the AT7s that went to DFW after
55 93Sierra : I can see the point of using a jet bridge is places where weather can be a factor, however if you can ground load and it's cheaper for a ramp spot vs
56 william : Why? There is a 42 seat version of the ATR for that. I don't see why Embraer couldn't relase an EMB 120 2nd Gen if the market asked for it.
57 srbmod : The reason why there isn't anything to replace them is the public perception of turboprops as well as cities desiring jet service over prop/tubroprop
58 Viscount724 : And the ATR-42 has been selling very poorly. The trend is to larger capacity aircraft for both props and jets. Can't find 2012 data, but of the 157 f
59 nycdave : Two main elements: 1. Perception -- as noted, there's an unfortunate tendency in the US for people not used to flying to think that props are antiquat
60 Cubsrule : Maybe. But there are quality turboprop operators in the States. C5, while small, does a good job. Of the 4 operators of Dashes in the States (9L/YX,
61 nycdave : Definitely have to disagree with you there. The equipment PD uses is as plush as anything I've ever sat in short-haul that wasn't a biz/first seat. B
62 kgaiflyer : Then again, if you want to fly SEA nonstop to BIL, BOI, BZN, YEG, YLW, YYC, or YYJ, it's the Q400 or nothing.
63 Cubsrule : Of course, if PD were flying CRJs, they'd be configured with about 42 seats, so it's not an apples to apples comparison, is it? The seats that DH had
64 RWA380 : It is a shame, as smaller communities have or will loose air service because there won't be an adequate replacement for EMB-120's that OO fly,I think
65 william : It may be Embraer, nothing to prevent them from making a EMB-120 Next Gen. As stated in another post, the ATR42 is not selling that well.
66 JoeCanuck : All of these perceptions can be negated by one thing; ticket price. Give passengers a few bucks off, and they'll fill any turboprop...they may whine.
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