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The Future Of Lufthansa´s A340 Fleet?  
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7057 posts, RR: 4
Posted (1 year 7 months 4 days ago) and read 26390 times:

Hi, what does the future hold for Lufthansas A340 fleet. Will the -600s also be replaced with the 747-8I as LH also has options for 20 more ? They were rumors that some -600s might go to Swiss. But as nothing has come out of this rumor I believe if such plans have existed they have been droped.

Some of the -300s also have left the fleet being replaced with A333s on some routes. Two A343s went to the German Air Force and I believe two have ended up in Iran.

How many older A340s will leave the fleet in the next few months ?

[Edited 2012-12-26 05:25:34]


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline2008matt From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 25622 times:

I think the 600s would look great in Swiss colours


Keep calm and up your game!
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8692 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 25451 times:

Quoting columba (Thread starter):
How many older A340s will leave the fleet in the next few months ?

None, as far as I know. LH has one further A333 on order, but that one won't be delivered until 2014. The A343s will be reconfigured to a two-class layout, which means that LH will invest considerable amounts into new C class seats for that fleet. (source: lh-taufnamen.de) With that investment decided upon and bearing in mind that used A340s don't really sell like hotcakes, they may well be here to stay.   

Additionally, they do like to fly their aircraft until the end of their economic lifespans, which - I suppose - is just what they'll do with the A340s.

Quoting columba (Thread starter):
Will the -600s also be replaced with the 747-8I as LH also has options for 20 more ?

Odd... I do remember reading about those options, but they are not mentioned on the relevant corporate website:
http://investor-relations.lufthansa..../fakten-zum-unternehmen/fleet.html
However, the 748 is of course much bigger than the A346 - replacing the latter with the former would mean a pretty substantial growth strategy, which I don't see happening at the moment.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently onlineAirCanadaA330 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 25354 times:
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I would assume the 747-8i are replacing the 747-400.

As for the 340-600 my guess is they will remain in the fleet until LH orders either the A350 or 787.

Quoting columba (Thread starter):
They were rumors that some -600s might go to Swiss.

I was hoping they might have sent some 340's to BMI, but sadly that never happened.



Cheers;
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30572 posts, RR: 84
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 24644 times:
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Quoting aloges (Reply 2):
However, the 748 is of course much bigger than the A346 - replacing the latter with the former would mean a pretty substantial growth strategy, which I don't see happening at the moment.

In terms of total seats, the 747-8 offers 17% greater capacity than the A340-600, which is not a huge step change assuming traffic continues to grow. The biggest delta is Business Class (the 747-8 has 53% more seats), but the difference in Economy is only 10% so LH could adjust those two as necessary (LH does have a high-Y 747-400 configuration).


User currently offlinenrt1011 From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 20097 times:

These guys can do the economics of stay versus purchase, that should not be that dificult even though there are many variables. As someone said, the old 340's are worth as much as an 85 Chevy so keeping them around seems a good idea. Plus they are just great planes to fly in and I will happily fly on a 340 anytime.

User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 20083 times:

I still think Lufthansa is kidding itself putting 221 seats on the A343/A333 family (8F/48C/165Y). There's only a handful of long-haul routes to secondary destinations that can support this kind of density.

Think of the cost advantage KLM has to attract global traffic by having a 292 seat A333 vs. LH's 221 A333/A343.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7165 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 20046 times:

Scrap metal, or they will go into service with AR... 

User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1991 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 19634 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 7):
Scrap metal, or they will go into service with AR... 

I was thinking Air Tahiti Nui might want them.  


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7165 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 19252 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 8):
I was thinking Air Tahiti Nui might want them

TN have too many 343s already - they're trying to get rid of theirs(which are quite new as far as 343s go), AR on the other hand is the only airline in the non-politically sanctioned world that is buying 343s (and some old construction numbers too 48,93,94,123,126,128 from between 94-96 and a similar age to many of LHs early machines)


User currently offlinetransaeroyyz From Canada, joined Dec 2010, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 18106 times:

Why does LH keep ignoring the 777, I mean every major airline has them!

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30572 posts, RR: 84
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 18109 times:
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Quoting transaeroyyz (Reply 10):
Why does LH keep ignoring the 777, I mean every major airline has them!

They've already committed heavily to the A340 so they might as well wait for newer options (A350, 787, 777X).


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6832 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 18015 times:

Based on what LH has historically done I would expect them to fly the A340's until it is no longer economically feasible to continue, and then they will go to the scrapyards. While they might not be the most economical planes in terms of fuel consumption they are not so bad that it is more economical to retire them prematurely, especially since nobody is likely to pay much for them.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinedeltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1642 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 17286 times:

Quoting transaeroyyz (Reply 10):
Why does LH keep ignoring the 777, I mean every major airline has them!

According to LH they claim that as for the A340-600, it is just as efficient if not more as the 777-300. They claim they have world class engineering and over the next decade can continue to make improvements to the A346 to keep its costs equal to that of the 777-300.

Futhermore there is some misconception out there that the 777 is the god almighty over the A346 and this isn't true. It depends on the mission, the 773 does better on some routes and the A346 can do as well on others. Yes maintenance on 4 vs. 2 is more but at end of day the A346 is pretty competitive and LH has acknowleged that, therefore no need to order 777s at this point. In hindsight the success of the 773 over the A346 was all timing. Had the A346 been out 5 years earlier than I'm sure you'd see many more of the type.


User currently offlineLTU330 From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 16111 times:

I was under the impression that in 2013 the whole A340-600 fleet would eventually be transferred to MUC. I can't remember if it was information from a friend at LH Technik here or anything already published on the Airliners.net forum.

User currently offlinesteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 15657 times:

Quoting LTU330 (Reply 14):
Quoting LTU330 (Reply 14):
I was under the impression that in 2013 the whole A340-600 fleet would eventually be transferred to MUC. I can't remember if it was information from a friend at LH Technik here or anything already published on the Airliners.net forum.

I heard that too, as well as switching the FRA based A343 to a two class configuration, convert some 744 to a two class configuration without First and use them on leisure and even charter routes.
But in LH nothing stays the same. They keep on changing their mind till they find the right solution.
They recently announced the introduction of a Premium Economy.
Will we see some A340 switch from F/C/Y to C/Y+/Y? Maybe.

I also believe the A343 will stay much longer. Maybe a couple more of the older frames will be withdrawn, just like it happens with the 744 but the bulk of them will soldier on.
The A346 will also stay for many more years, till the next generation of widebody twins will replace them.
I honestly think LH will end up ordering the A350-1000 to replace the A346.

Ciao
Stefano


User currently offlinebavair From Germany, joined Jul 2011, 123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 14681 times:

Quoting steman (Reply 15):
I heard that too, as well as switching the FRA based A343 to a two class configuration, convert some 744 to a two class configuration without First and use them on leisure and even charter routes.
But in LH nothing stays the same. They keep on changing their mind till they find the right solution.
They recently announced the introduction of a Premium Economy.

I've read about statements along the same lines. If I remember correctly, the A343's are all to lose the First class while being transferred to FRA exclusively. MUC will get more A333 instead, the MUC hub continuing to have F on all widebodies.. But I guess nothing is set in stone until it happens and even then..


User currently offlineviasa From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 1870 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 14150 times:

Two former LH A340s were delivered to Mahan Air (Iran) [via Chaba Air (Thailand), Manas Airways or Kyrgyz Trans Avia].

It's always interesting, that so many Lufthansa aircraft find a new home in Iran... there were 10 A300-600s, 2 A300-600Rs, 2 A310-300s and now 2 A340-300s delivered to Mahan Air!


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6832 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 14084 times:

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 13):
Futhermore there is some misconception out there that the 777 is the god almighty over the A346 and this isn't true. It depends on the mission, the 773 does better on some routes and the A346 can do as well on others. Yes maintenance on 4 vs. 2 is more but at end of day the A346 is pretty competitive and LH has acknowleged that, therefore no need to order 777s at this point. In hindsight the success of the 773 over the A346 was all timing. Had the A346 been out 5 years earlier than I'm sure you'd see many more of the type.

In fact the A346 WAS out two years before the 77W (2002 for the A346 and 2004 for the 77W); it is curious that LH claims that the A346 is just as economical as the 77W (when they have never flown the 77W) and just about every other airline in the world who has compared the two has favored the 77W. This is not like the 737 vs. A320 where airlines seem to be pretty evenly divided; once the 77W entered service airlines voted overwhelmingly with their money for the 77W. Just about everyone acknowledges that on very select routes, especially those with hot-and-high destinations, the A346 does have an advantage, but those advantages have not been enough to blunt the overwhelming advantage that the 77W has enjoyed on a vast majority of routes. The order books speak for themselves; Boeing cannot build 77W's fast enough to keep up, and the A346 is no longer for sale. I believe what is really going on at LH is that they just do not want to retire the A340 before they have gotten full use out of them, and considering that there are no other airlines clamoring for them it is unlikely that they could sell them for very much. This is an absolutely sound and rational decision, and I am quite sure that the accountants have satisfied themselves that the fuel savings of going to more efficient aircraft will not be enough to compensate for the capital loss incurred by retiring the A340 fleet early. Anything LH says about the A346 being just as fuel efficient as the 77W is window dressing; if it was true than the A346 production line would be still going; maintenance costs alone would not be enough to have given the 77W the almost total victory in the sales battle.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3320 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 13308 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
In terms of total seats, the 747-8 offers 17% greater capacity than the A340-600, which is not a huge step change assuming traffic continues to grow. The biggest delta is Business Class (the 747-8 has 53% more seats), but the difference in Economy is only 10% so LH could adjust those two as necessary (LH does have a high-Y 747-400 configuration).

But will all their 20 (or 19 + x options) be in the current high C config, or is there likely to be a low C config as well?


User currently offlineDABZF From Germany, joined Mar 2004, 1200 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 13287 times:

Quoting transaeroyyz (Reply 10):
Why does LH keep ignoring the 777, I mean every major airline has them!

... this has for long been the big question!
Lufthansa Cargo opted for the 777F although everyone else is bying the 748F and the same time LH is the only one flying 748.

I'm sure that there are reasons behind these decisions... just dont know them. Would be nice to know though 



I like driving backwards in the fog cause it doesn't remind me of anything - Chris Cornell
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6832 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 13215 times:

Quoting DABZF (Reply 20):
Quoting transaeroyyz (Reply 10):
Why does LH keep ignoring the 777, I mean every major airline has them!

... this has for long been the big question!

It appears to me that LH opted early for the A343 for their long haul fleet (those that weren't 747's); when the 777 came out it did not offer enough of an advantage to LH to tempt them to switch. Then, when Airbus launched the A346 Boeing did not immediately counter, and LH made a major commitment to it. When Boeing came out later with the 77W (which they did largely in response to the A346) LH was already committed. Let's face it; without the 77W the A346 would probably have been an outstanding success; most of the airlines flying the 77W would likely have ordered it. And if the 77W had only met Boeing's expectations it is likely that the A346 and 77W would still be battling it out, much as the 737 and A320 are, but it exceeded everybody's expectations and has consequently driven the stake through the A346's heart. LH simply placed their bets too early, both with the A343 and A346, and hence had no room for the 777. Every airline makes some mistakes, and from what I have seen of LH they make fewer than most. This was one, but it is one that they can and will survive.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8210 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 13207 times:

Quoting transaeroyyz (Reply 10):
Why does LH keep ignoring the 777, I mean every major airline has them!

This has been discussed ad nauseum.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 18):
In fact the A346 WAS out two years before the 77W (2002 for the A346 and 2004 for the 77W); it is curious that LH claims that the A346 is just as economical as the 77W (when they have never flown the 77W) and just about every other airline in the world who has compared the two has favored the 77W.

But LH had already commited to the A340 as their long haul type and as we know LH doesn't make these decisions lightly and they keep their planes around for 20+ years. All of that factors into the operating costs, not just the fuel burn. And how many of those "just about every other" airline had already comitted so heavily to the A340 before switching to the 777? Very few. So althought LH may seem unique in how they make the A340 work for them, there is some logic to it. The fact that they ordered A333's tells me that they are very well aware of the cost handicap of the A340.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 18):
This is an absolutely sound and rational decision, and I am quite sure that the accountants have satisfied themselves that the fuel savings of going to more efficient aircraft will not be enough to compensate for the capital loss incurred by retiring the A340 fleet early.

Indeed, which for LH, makes the A346 just as efficient or more efficient than the 77W over the lifetime of the frame and spread across the fleet. In a few years the situation could be reversed. LH will be operating A350-1000's or 7810's while some the competition will still be flying relatively new but less efficient 777ER's and 777W's. Just like they are flying 748i's today while the competition is flying 744's. Their refresh cycle is simply offset from that of the competiton  


User currently offlineAA777223 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1232 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 13042 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 18):
it is curious that LH claims that the A346 is just as economical as the 77W (when they have never flown the 77W)

I agree. As far as I can remember, only one airline in the world would really be able to give us a true operational comparison between the two - TG. EK could give us a sort of comparo between the A345 and the B77L, still not the same though. I think those are the only airlines I know of that fly both "NG" versions of the A340 and B777.



Sic 'em bears
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6832 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12913 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 22):

Indeed, which for LH, makes the A346 just as efficient or more efficient than the 77W over the lifetime of the frame and spread across the fleet.

Only in that they already had the A346 when the 77W proved how good it was. If LH had waited until the 77W was available I suspect that it would have made a lot more money for them than the A346 has. But once they had committed to the A346 the picture changed, and they had to recoup the investment. Tossing it down the toilet certainly was not an option.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
25 flyyul : LH needs to improve density on the A343/A333 fleet to get optimal results. Imagine they put Y+ without reducing F/J cabin!
26 UALWN : Of the top of my head, here are some major airlines without 777s: LH, LX, IB, SK, AY, QF, SA, LA, US
27 SA7700 : This thread was started in order to discuss LH's A340 fleet. Some users are intent in turning the thread into an Airbus versus Boeing flamefest, which
28 airbazar : It's not just an A346 vs B77W decision. It was an A340 vs. 777 fleet. The decision was made when LH committed to being a launch customer. That by its
29 SEPilot : Quite true, and I intended to convey this, but did not state it explicitly. Up until the 77W proved itself to be as good as it was, there really was
30 Burkhard : The 2-4-2 seating is very popular, and gives LH a huge advantage over AFs 3-4-3 on the 77W. LH is making lots of money on its long range routes, and t
31 Post contains images ymincrement : I think 777 has not proved its succes yet for LH. Also for customers like me who do not feel confortable in long haul flights 4 engine are better then
32 flyyul : Not entirely true. They'll be the first to tell you that the A333/A343 fleet is underwhelming
33 SEPilot : I don't believe that enough passengers book on the basis of aircraft types to make a huge difference; what I do know is that my sister, who has lived
34 irshava : Courtesy to Ukrainian oligarchs who purchase these old birds and offload them into sanctioned countries who can't otherwise acquire aircraft and/or p
35 VC10er : This year I flew an LH A343 from GIG to FRA in First. Their new First Class which was among the best flying experiences ever. I would assume that to/f
36 qf002 : CX, SQ, EY and QR spring to mind. MU will join the cub soon.
37 steman : GRU and EZE are still served with 744, at least from FRA. Not sure if there are flights ex MUC to these destinations SCL is not served anymore direct
38 RayChuang : I think LH will just keep their A343's and A346's until their operational lives run out. After all, I believe most of them are already paid for or are
39 steman : LH already tried this route in the past and it didn´t work. Moreover in 18 months BER might not yet be ready. There isn´t enough government traffic
40 lightsaber : I've been lurking on this post and finally decided to comment. I see LH, in general, up-gauging their routes do to the slow rate of hub-airport expans
41 airbazar : I would say frequent fliers care too and those usually represent a disproportionately high amount of revenue for the airlines. There's a reason why e
42 LipeGIG : They serve MUC-GRU with A343/A346. Currently A346. F to GIG seems to be very popular. LH FRA-GIG is the only daily service from Europe with First Cla
43 SEPilot : Certainly this is true F & J flyers; but I suspect that most of them are more concerned with the seats themselves rather than what aircraft they
44 LH506 : [quote=SEPilot,reply=43][/ I care for seat and aircraft, because the busses usually do not have a middle seat in J, whereas many airlines offer this n
45 SEPilot : Yeah, but by being a member of this forum you are self-identifying yourself as an airplane nut and hence not a member of the vast majority of the tra
46 Post contains images lightsaber : I was talking aircraft type. Half the frequent fliers I know mis-speak about which aircraft they fly. They do care about Y+ as you noted. They care a
47 ferpe : This should be true, out of couriosity I modeled just how bad the 346 is vs 748m and 77W. I even threw in the 333 and the 343 in the end. I ran all o
48 lightsaber : Interesting analysis. I'll have to do a bit of my own as I have the 748i doing a wee bit better than you typed. But the 77W and A333 are in line with
49 nrt1011 : Aircraft type is important to some people. Living in Australia and flying here, my choice is usually Qantas, Virgin or Jetstar. My #1 choice is always
50 Post contains images ferpe : Thanks for the doubting, you are right, in the haste I picked the spec numbers for the 380 and 748 and not the 5500nm numbers, below are the correcte
51 SEPilot : Very interesting. I did not realize that on any measure the 77W had better fuel economy than the A380; that certainly helps explain why it has been s
52 FLALEFTY : This is good stuff. How would the old 744 rack up on this chart?
53 330lover : Hi LipeGIG, doesn't JJ have first class on their flights too? Or did this change?
54 SA7700 : JJ have First Class on their A330 flights as well, although they don't have daily FRA-GIG-FRA flights. According to the GDS they run 4x weekly flight
55 ferpe : I have modeled the 787 range but not the 744, might do. Here the frames discussed + future candidates for replacement, the 787 frames have higher con
56 ferpe : So I have added the 747-400, it burns 59 kg per pax (or m2), one can understand why it is being replaced, especially if a 77W can take over the job at
57 330lover : Right, missed the 'daily' in the post. My bad!
58 SEPilot : Thanks for the effort. Of course the A350 figures are theoretical (which is why I did not include them in my request.) It may perform better (or wors
59 Post contains images ferpe : They are as the bird has not flown yet. I have modeled them based on the info A have given. One has to understand an OEM gives away quite a lot when
60 airbazar : There aren't enough 787's flying around yet, to give passengers the alternative. But I do believe that a lot of frequent fliers do know that a) on th
61 lightsaber : First, thank you for presenting your analysis. Which would make the others a little 'optimistic,' in particular on the A333 which has the taper start
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