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Southwest Off Taxiway In ISP  
User currently offlineFlyingFan18 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 87 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 15572 times:

According to our local news station a Southwest flight has veered off the taxiway at MacArthur Airport this morning. Seems like a random incident. Not quite sure what happened.

http://longisland.news12.com/news/po...rs-off-macarthur-taxiway-1.4379050
For those who are not NYers or have news 12:

Quote:
RONKONKOMA -
Suffolk police have confirmed a Southwest flight veered off the taxiway at MacArthur Airport this morning.

According to News 12 Long Island reporter Drew Scott, Southwest flight 4695 was taxiing when the nose wheel and landing gear left the taxiway and got stuck in the mud.

The plane was carrying 136 passengers, which have since exited the plane and returned to the airport via buses. No injuries have been reported.

MacArthur Airport appears to be open despite the incident.


105 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDLX737200 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1905 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 15522 times:

Southwest seems to have this problem often...

User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 15513 times:

They taxi too fast.

I dont know how they get away with as SOP


User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1902 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 15262 times:

This makes what? Maybe the second or third time this has happened to WN this year out of how many millions of flights?

Yah, they're soooooooooooo unsafe...better ground them before someone gets killed!


User currently offlineFlyingFan18 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 15179 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 2):

Although I am unaware that they taxi fast how can they do it in such a small (smaller) airport like ISP? They should know considering it poured last night like cats and dogs. Also what about those rather weird taxiways… doing a turn so fast I could see them easily sliding of the taxiway.
- Justin


User currently offlineplateman From United States of America, joined May 2007, 923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 15152 times:

Newsday has a clearer pic too .. story is behind paywall but image is visable to all:

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/s...rs-off-macarthur-taxiway-1.4379056



"Explore. Dream. Discover." -Mark Twain
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2434 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 15106 times:

Quoting FlyingFan18 (Reply 4):

With all due rspect, Southwest does have a reputation of putting the hammer down when they are on the ground.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22935 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14997 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 6):
With all due rspect, Southwest does have a reputation of putting the hammer down when they are on the ground.

Sure, but is there any evidence that they leave the pavement any more than any other carrier? Overruns and runway excursions are easier to track than taxi incidents, and if we compare WN to, for instance, AA, WN would seem to compare favorably. In the past 15 years, WN has had BUR and MDW, while AA has had JAC, KIN and LIT.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2434 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14956 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
Sure, but is there any evidence that they leave the pavement any more than any other carrier?

Not that I know of.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6606 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14916 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 6):
With all due rspect, Southwest does have a reputation of putting the hammer down when they are on the ground.

Southwest does have this reputation, though I'd say you could turn it around the other way too. The legacy carriers have a tendency to taxi excessively slow...largely because it increases block times for pilots.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14916 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 2):
They taxi too fast.


We don't know, the taxiway could very well have suddenly taken a turn. 
Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 6):
Southwest does have a reputation of putting the hammer down when they are on the ground


I wouldn't go so far as to say a hammer down, but from the years I have seen them moving around airports they move with a purpose unlike some other operators. Unsafe, not IMHO.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14654 times:

AA in particular is a snail as far as taxi speed goes, however I believe it has something to do with them not getting there numbers until they have pushed

User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14593 times:

I have not evidence that they leave taxiways more than other carriers.

Take yourself for instance...if you drive fast or aggresively, the first thing your friends and family will discuss amongst themselves if you got into a bad accident

"You know he always drove too fast"
"I know, I always thought that too"
"Makes you wonder if its all worth it"
"He'll really need to slow down in the future"

Perception is reality in this business.

That's why we spend thousands of dollars and many minutes deicing when there are flurries falling


User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 14440 times:

The headline at Gothamist makes the incident sound much worse than it was:

http://gothamist.com/2012/12/27/plan..._skids_off_runway_at_macarthur.php

There was no "skidding" involved.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently onlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4783 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 14243 times:
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Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
Perception is reality in this business.

In my opinion, it's a perception that stems from observed tendencies many years ago. Times have changed but unfortunately perception has yet to change as well.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineSXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2327 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 14051 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):
Yah, they're soooooooooooo unsafe...better ground them before someone gets killed!

You say this because they taxi too fast? Really? Although I do agree this is the second time this happened, far worse have happened to airlines, look at USAir back in the 1990's, they were loosing planes left and right. Maybe YOU need to re-think the term "unsafe"..

Aside from the US Airways Express DH8 and CR2, they are the only other carrier in town along with a bunch of GA planes, most of the time they are the only guys on the taxiway.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently onlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4783 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13984 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 15):
Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 3):
Yah, they're soooooooooooo unsafe...better ground them before someone gets killed!

You say this because they taxi too fast? Really? Although I do agree this is the second time this happened, far worse have happened to airlines, look at USAir back in the 1990's, they were loosing planes left and right. Maybe YOU need to re-think the term "unsafe"..

Aside from the US Airways Express DH8 and CR2, they are the only other carrier in town along with a bunch of GA planes, most of the time they are the only guys on the taxiway.

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm.  



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineCaptainmeeerkat From Russia, joined Aug 2010, 386 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13762 times:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOY3Cc6XRU4

Is this a fast taxi and quick rolling takeoff? I'm sure it's not an indicator of the norm but here they appear to me moving quite quickly!  



my luggage is better travelled than me!
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13538 times:

Quoting Captainmeeerkat (Reply 17):
Is this a fast taxi and quick rolling takeoff?


I certainly don't think so. And that quick rolling takeoff was anything but quick IMHO.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlinesoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13476 times:

WN doesn't position themselves here @ ISP any faster than anyone else here including corporate. I fly them all the time out of here and have never felt taxi speed beyond normal for the circumstances. With all their take-off and landing cycles WN pilots execute in a day I feel they are some of the best in the business.

User currently offlinemesaflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3070 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 13035 times:
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LOL Don't talk about our airport that way!  

I am kinda surprised, but I have of this before so I'm not completely shocked. Last time I flew WN out of ISP we were at the runway in less than a minute, but if you've ever been to ISP, you know the proximity of the WN gates to runway 33L, so I wouldn't blame it on fast taxiing.

WN pilots are known to taxi a bit faster than others sometimes, but it has only caused an incident like 3 times so far this year. I don't think it's a huge deal. It just helps them a bit with their quick turnarounds and early arrivals.  

[Edited 2012-12-28 02:56:13 by SA7700]


\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlinesoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 12224 times:

Just went over to the site...appears as though the turn on Taxiway Sierra to the right was not accomplished. (Sierra makes a quick and sharp turn to the right then quickly intercepts taxiway Alpha to the left). The airframe is still in line w/ Sierra. The nose wheel buried up past the axle. (Much rain last night). In the dark with wet pavement this intersection is tricky and cannot be accomplished with any brisk rate of speed despite type aircraft. Feel bad for the crew. Went to work at the time, the weather was misty/ light rain, winds out of a generally north direction as it was vacillating between NW and NE. Given the wind taxiing on Sierra would have have given the aircraft a bit of an unwanted push in this case.

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11028 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 2):
They taxi too fast.

A better statement might have been they taxi too fast for the conditions. On all of my WN flights across the last fifteen or so years WN seems to taxi no faster than other air carriers I've flown except for maybe AS in rural Alaska.

As far as we know if could have been pilot or first officer unfamiliarity with the airport in combination with the weather. The NTSB report will be forthcoming.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinesoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10880 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 23):
unfamiliarity with the airport in combination with the weather.

While ISP may be looked at as a small insignificant field, It has a complex area of intersecting taxiways/ runways in close proximity to each other near the accident site. So a crew member in adverse conditions, would not necessarily be aware of how tight the turn is at this location. As I stated above...even in a 172 with any kind of push by a 1/4' ing tail wind requires you to brake firmly before entering the turn. Not a good way to kick off the New Year for the crew sadly.


User currently offlineEASTERN747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 541 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 10454 times:

So how does one get the plane out, You can't get behind and pull it out, Lot's of lumber in front and pull, if the tractor is on concrete or just get the guy from "Airplane" and put the petal to the metal!

25 Post contains images soon7x7 : Off load the fuel and everything else to make her lighter, imagine Boeing Team will advise on placement of harnesses cranes will use to lift so a firm
26 AirframeAS : Um, no one suggested that on this thread that they are unsafe. Sure, they taxi fast and have the reputation for doing so. What is your point??
27 mesaflyguy : Looks a lot worse than I thought. I'm gonna try an run over to ISP and see it when I get back to NY in a few days if it's still there.
28 skycub : It's funny because as soon as I read THIS: Before I even finished EASTERN747's entire reply, I was already had THIS in my mind: LOL "Mr. Patroni... Mr
29 Jpax : Unless there's damage or contributing circumstances we can't see, I imagine it'll be out within a day or two.
30 e38 : Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9), "The legacy carriers have a tendency to taxi excessively slow...largely because it increases block times for pilots." Doug,
31 winsox28 : I took Southwest from BWI to BDL today. We did taxi rather quickly, but it was good to see a veteran Capt and FO instead of the young pilots I have se
32 Silver1SWA : Uh, if you read the reply 3 posts above yours, you will see he explained his point. Hint: IT WAS SARCASM.
33 GentFromAlaska : As stated I would imagine it would be some sort of strap(s) on a crane or mechanical hoist mirroring the way they would lift a larger vessel out of t
34 DocLightning : I believe it's N902WN and another A.nutter who works for WN at ISP posted a pic of her on the tarmac, so I think they moved the aircraft back.
35 mcdu : Didn't we just have this same discussion about WN in DEN? Does anyone have a diagram of the location where this crew put in the mud? Heard pax report
36 LONGisland89 : Aircraft involved was N718SW. Going to take a drive by ISP to see if she's still in the mud. I'll try to upload an aerial view. There was no skidding
37 DocLightning : I stand corrected. I don't know if she's been pulled clear, then.
38 silentbob : Yes, it is a fast taxi. They are supposed to taxi no faster than a brisk walking pace. That is much faster than most humans can run. They only get in
39 BMI727 : My wild guess is that Southwest 737 pilots don't taxi any faster than other 737 pilots, but it's just our perception. Smaller planes are more maneuve
40 comairguycvg : It's the annual WN off in the grass. In this case, multiple times annually.
41 Post contains images AWACSooner : Maybe their next theme plane can be a Holstein
42 Post contains links and images 71Zulu : From what is posted on avherald, the crew was instructed to taxi to runway 6 via taxiways Sierra and Alpha, where Sierra veers right just before Alpha
43 dragon-wings : If you were going to go down to Islip (like me) to see the plane stuck in the mud don't. I just saw on News 12 Long Island that the plane is out of th
44 93Sierra : AA pilots I believe don't get there numbers until they push and are programming and setting things up for departure where as the WN flows are done pre
45 mesaflyguy : There may have been. The weather wasn't too nice here last night and it was COOOOLD, so you never know. But, the more probable excuse for the inciden
46 Post contains images soon7x7 : It was 47 degrees when I went to ISP to work, that was 6:15 AM. No ice existed anywhere and I didn't see skid marks...just someone that didn't slow up
47 barney captain : Completely incorrect. While that my be true for GA aircraft, our SOP is quite clear; 30kts max on a straight taxiway - like the one in the video. A "
48 71Zulu : That is true, just heard the clip on liveatc.net. For some reason, Avherald is still reporting the crew said "skidded" but they said no such thing.
49 PassedV1 : Southwest Crews on average, taxi much much faster than any other airline. This is not a criticism from lay people or from an ignorant media, this is c
50 mesaflyguy : That happened on my last WN flight, which was from ISP. As soon as we finished pushing back, the flight attendant up front said we had been cleared fo
51 barney captain : Allow me to quote myself from 3 posts above yours. There is absolutely no such thing as an "FAA standard for 'a brisk walk'..." wrt taxi speeds. Not
52 mcdu : You may want to rephrase that. There is absolutely a way to know and it is probably known today. The QAR and or the FDR will definitely reveal how fa
53 soon7x7 : What is wrong with that?...You probably pushed back and had a one minute taxi to R-31L which is adjacent to the ramp at the terminal...what could be
54 mesaflyguy : There was nothing wrong with it, it was great. And we did indeed use 31L, I was just responding to another post. EDIT: The post I was replying to see
55 SEPilot : I fly WN almost exclusively when I fly domestically, and I have never considered their taxi speeds to be excessive. I am also an experienced private p
56 Post contains images soon7x7 : No confusion here...I get your drift...seems like they no sooner start up the power plants at push back , seems like 30 seconds later your @ 4,000ft
57 mesaflyguy : I never actually thout about that. I did notice though, when I go to PVD I watch the 630am US Airways 737-400 and the 600am WN departure and the US p
58 Silver1SWA : Really, the only people making a claim that WN taxi speeds are higher are the people known to dislike..err HATE WN. Is it not possible that this was
59 mesaflyguy : This whole thing seems like a visibility or fimiliarity issue to me. I don't think taxi speeds had much to do with it, if anything.
60 Cubsrule : This event doesn't look like it'll qualify as an accident, so the level of scrutiny will be minimal.
61 rfields5421 : It made the FAA Preliminary Accident & Incident List - so there will be a report at least by the FAA - I agree this will not get to NTSB level. A
62 SEPilot : With no damage to the aircraft (which I see no sign of), and no injuries, you are probably correct
63 Post contains images mandala499 : He didn't look like he was exceeding 30kts... If they taxi at "brisk walking pace", heck, Amtrak would be overflowing with passengers on the eastern
64 Post contains links GentFromAlaska : If I read the chart correctly the junction point where Sierra and Alpha taxiways meet are almost parallel with ISP runway 10 Not being a chart expert
65 mesaflyguy : I'm pretty sure runway 10 hasn't been active in years. I think it's just used as a taxiway, but don't quote me on that. Also, unless it was a corpora
66 soon7x7 : From the air this junction makes obvious sense but when you are taxiing at ground level in the dark, rain on the windscreen reflecting ambient light,
67 Post contains images 71Zulu : Google Earth shot
68 mcdu : That is why they paint a bright yellow center line to follow......... The captain is responsible to taxi at a safe speed for the conditions. If he wa
69 yeelep : Yes you can. There are eyebolts and cables that attach to the main gear that are used to winch or tow the aircraft backwards. No need to consult with
70 UA735WL : In my experience, WN does tend to taxi faster than other carriers. It works for them most of the time, but it seems like it gets a little tricky to ta
71 Post contains links 71Zulu : Av Herald just updated the article and is saying that the aircraft has "substantial damage" and that the FAA is classifying this occurence as an accid
72 mesaflyguy : My guess is FOD in the engine and perhaps some damage to the landing gear. Quite often hese types if incidents result in a decent amount of internal
73 Post contains links dragon-wings : Here is video of the plane getting pulled out of the mud. http://longisland.news12.com/news/so...way-at-macarthur-airport-1.4379050
74 GentFromAlaska : I suspect the flight deck wished the wider runway 10 would have been the taxi-way on this day. If any good comes out this incident that may be a reco
75 Post contains links and images 71Zulu : Yeah probably but they were going to take the next left (taxiway Alpha) to get to the full length of 6, but they never made it to Alpha. [Edited 2012
76 dragon-wings : I know it's a little long taxi time but maybe in bad weather they could make the planes taxi across the runway 6 and 10 intersection and make their wa
77 GentFromAlaska : Why not use the "E" taxi-way/apron near the terminal thereafter take a left and taxi down 10. Given a choice I'd use the wider Interstate over a rura
78 freakyrat : From the aerial view of these taxiways I would say that ISP needs to widen out that intersection so this will not happen again. The taxiways are to na
79 Post contains images soon7x7 : It did rain a lot softening the ground. The Taxi Centerlines are extremely worn @ ISP. It is even evident in the aerial shot @ the point of taxiway S
80 Post contains images soon7x7 : Once the aircraft departed the taxiway the crew tried to power her back to the runway. The engine "D" ring as I saw it was no higher than 12"-16" abo
81 mesaflyguy : Oh no not a good idea at all!
82 soon7x7 : Found out N718SW flew out the next day, (MEL) flight...End of story I guess...
83 Silver1SWA : This is what I was wondering. The headlines all said "skidded", folks here assumed they took a turn too fast... Like I questioned above, perhaps this
84 mesaflyguy : I assume it was a case of unfamiliarity. But that begs the question, should there be more signage on the field to alert pilots (or anybody) of sharp
85 71Zulu : Av Herald still reporting they 'skidded', so they must know something. This is what the pilot said to ATC: "We just made your day very exciting, at le
86 GentFromAlaska : Outside of any FAA requirements I am under the impression Boeing requires a mandatory 96 hour safety stand-down before any carrier can return a airfr
87 mcdu : From Avherald: On Dec 28th the FAA reported the aircraft sustained substantial damage and rated the occurrence an accident. The FAA doesn't agree wit
88 Silver1SWA : If no turn was even attempted due to unfamiliarity and/or visibility issues and they simply drove off the taxiway, it wouldn't take a whole lot of sp
89 ouboy79 : Indeed...but you'll crush the monday morning quarterbacking going on. Thankfully we have trained investigators that will handle this. Not those with
90 atrude777 : Hey Guess what, another airline had a slip off the taxi too just like WN did in DEN a few months ago, GoJet/United Express in ALB. Why aren't you all
91 Post contains images Cubsrule : Sorry I'm not psychic - look when that post was And regardless, your post is wrong. FAA most certainly does not go looking for "bar tabs" for every a
92 mcdu : You indicated it was no big deal before the FAA decided it was an accident. What were you basing that opinion on? If not psychic then you seemed to h
93 Cubsrule : Nonsense. I simply indicated (your word) that it would not be investigated at the level that AA 587 or 9E 3701 was. That's true regardless of whether
94 Post contains images mesaflyguy : Yes, I did mean a revenue flight. Shoulda made that clear in my post.
95 mcdu : There obviously would be differences. However, the premise is the same. There are fatal and non-fatal accidents. To say the crews previous activities
96 ouboy79 : Where did he say that all previous activities would be ignored? I didn't read it. Why come in here looking to pick a fight or fling mud for no real p
97 Cubsrule : Of course. But you seem to presuppose that there was some human factors "problem," and that assumption ignores one of the basic tenets of human facto
98 mcdu : He said it below. I am not flinging mud at anyone. I have not trashed WN. Only speaking about the process involved in investigating the accident. The
99 ouboy79 : To distort the timeline of comment is a little naive as well. This chest thumping is really pointless and pretty immature. It is also distracting thi
100 Cubsrule : Aside from your (irrational) hatred for WN, I don't see how you get from my comment to that premise. Had I meant that the scrutiny would be NONEXISTE
101 mcdu : If I had intended "much less" then I would have written much less. I still believe this is going to be an interesting report to read.
102 Cubsrule : It's pointless to argue the qualifiers because we don't know. It'll be less but It could still be quite a bit of scrutiny. If we look at overruns aga
103 atrude777 : You haven't trashed WN specifically no, but you are taking a much higher interest here because it is WN. Why did you ignore my post above in reply 90
104 71Zulu : Does the flight data recorder show taxi speeds, possible wheels skids and other factors on the ground? And now that the FAA has classified this as an
105 Post contains links GentFromAlaska : Although this is not DOT/FAA generated. Based on what I'm reading here http://www.avweb.com/news/avlaw/181884-1.html I would say yes. It sounds like
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