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National DC-8s To LHR  
User currently offlinemusang From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 872 posts, RR: 7
Posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5913 times:

From a thread in Jan 2011:

"National began service on the MIA-LHR route June 15, 1970 with two DC-8-54Fs, leased from MIA-based cargo airline Airlift International........ The DC-8s were returned by July 1973 and April 1974"

Where did they stop en route?

Many thanks - musang

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5164 posts, RR: 43
Reply 1, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5835 times:

The schedule shows the flights as non-stop, MIA-LHR-MIA. What makes you think they stopped en-route?

The DC-8-54 should have no problem flying either way non-stop, as it is only 3845nm.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16370 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5764 times:

National also had 2 DC-8-61's which were used briefly on MIA-LHR until the 741's arrived.


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3038 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5763 times:

None stop flight NA001/002

With these two dedicated DC-8s

N108RD and N109RD


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Fitzgerald


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bill Sheridan



Also a picture at Manchester on a LAP (Old three letter code for Heathrow) fog related divert


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dave Jones



These were replaced with two 747s and latter DC10-30s


User currently offlineYukon880 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5701 times:

Regarding N108RD and N109RD...
Both of these DC-8 Jet Traders were initially leased by Douglas, to U.S. supplemental carrier Riddle Airlines, which became Airlift International shortly thereafter. While cargo was their primary focus, they also provided passenger charter service as well.



Pratt & Whitney, In thrust we trust!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26029 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5474 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):
National also had 2 DC-8-61's which were used briefly on MIA-LHR until the 741's arrived.

I can't recall National using the DC-8-61 to LHR. I doubt it would have had the range to do it nonstop without a heavy payload penalty.


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16370 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5293 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):
National also had 2 DC-8-61's which were used briefly on MIA-LHR until the 741's arrived.

I can't recall National using the DC-8-61 to LHR.

I suspect it was a stopgap measure. I recall reading it was due to delayed 741 deliveries.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5164 posts, RR: 43
Reply 7, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5068 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
I can't recall National using the DC-8-61 to LHR. I doubt it would have had the range to do it nonstop without a heavy payload penalty.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 6):
I suspect it was a stopgap measure. I recall reading it was due to delayed 741 deliveries.

I am thinking it was more likely awaiting the delivery of the DC-10-30s, as that was around the time the DC-8-54s were going back to the lessor. The two B747-100s of NA were delivered in 1970.

It would have been quite a stretch for a DC-8-61, however I read that the initial load factor for the flight was around 45%, for a DC-8-54 ... that would make me think a 30% LF for a DC-8-61 made the flight possible.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1175 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4995 times:

The 61's were never used for LHR service. They were used between New York and Miami and Miami and Los Angeles. The 747's were delivered in the fall of 1970 and were used to replace the DC-8-61's. During the summers of 72,73,and 1974 they were placed on the MIA-LHR route but returned to the New York to Miami and Miami to Los Angeles routes in the winter. In 1973 National took delivery of their first two DC-10-30's for transatlantic service

User currently offlineCoachClass From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4905 times:

I flew the National MIA-LHR flight r/t in 1972 (maybe 73) on a student fare--you only had to be less than 25 yrs old. Because the DC-8 which they flew domestically could not reach LHR non-stop, they leased a couple of B707s, as I recall, that could make the journey non-stop. The only thing I'm not really sure of is whether it was Gatwick or Heathrow. It was easy to get into London, which makes me think LGW. Also to come back to the USA from Paris, I flew AF to the same airport to connect with National back to MIA.

User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16370 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4689 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 7):
It would have been quite a stretch for a DC-8-61, however I read that the initial load factor for the flight was around 45%, for a DC-8-54 ... that would make me think a 30% LF for a DC-8-61 made the flight possible.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 7):
The 61's were never used for LHR service.

If you google seach National MIA-LHR you will be pointed to a 2004 discussion on airliners.net where someone indicated the DC-8-61 was used on MIA-LHR. So who knows?  



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3038 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days ago) and read 4525 times:

I have been looking at my child hood logs and early issues of Air Pictorial for 1970-1973 concerning this issue and can find no evidence of the DC-8-61 visits.
My own logs and fathers are for just about every weekend and some weekdays.

They not comprehensive but would have expected them to be documented in the notable visitors of Air Pictorial and i can't find any entries in either.

The two DC-8-54CF s appear in most logs in 1970-1971 and again occasional later .

The 747s appear after May 1972 through to September 1973 then the DC10-30s show up.

Others of interest in 1970 there were logged visits of Delta DC-8s (presumed Pan-Am exchanges), whilst summer 1971 has Northwest Orient 707s and 1973 back to Delta this time with 747s !


User currently offlinemusang From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 872 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4449 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
What makes you think they stopped en-route?

My interpretation (from eyeballing a Boeing P/R graph:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/sta...p/pdf/freighters/DC-8F_payload.pdf

which doesn't state whether IFR reserves are included) that for 3845 nm the payload would be only about 58% of the DC-8-54CF's maximum . I wondered about the resultant economic viability of operating non-stop. I realise that all seats full + no cargo is nowhere near the payload limit, and this condition would enable a range of about 4700 nm (based on off-the-top-of-my-head estimates of seat capacity and passenger + bag weight), but wondered if this was viable.

However, no-one's mentioned stops amongst all the other detailed recollections, so my supposition was ill-founded!

Thanks to all respondents. Very interesting.

Regards - musang


User currently offlineYukon880 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4306 times:

Quoting musang (Reply 12):
However, no-one's mentioned stops amongst all the other detailed recollections, so my supposition was ill-founded!

While you could make the case that the leased DC-8s were actually "Freighter capable," that's not the mission that National used them for. And as we know, airlines were able to make money, back in the day, on (passenger) load factors that would be unheard of today!

So, rather than look at the exercise as an ill-founded supposition...
I say, look at the great discussion that came as a result!
 



Pratt & Whitney, In thrust we trust!
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5164 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4268 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 10):
Quoting longhauler (Reply 7):
The 61's were never used for LHR service.

Interesting ... that wasn't my quote.

Quoting musang (Reply 12):
so my supposition was ill-founded!

Not at all, if one doesn't know, then one asks ... and where better than here!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4594 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3781 times:

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 9):
Because the DC-8 which they flew domestically could not reach LHR non-stop, they leased a couple of B707s, as I recall, that could make the journey non-stop.

I don't recall NA ever operating 707s. I think they were on DC8-54s.


User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3611 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 15):

To the best of my knowledge the only time National ever used 707's were when they leased them from Pan Am in the late 50's and early 60's awaiting delivery of their DC-8 jets. And that was for their New York to Miami service.

BTW, with those leased DC 8 54's that were from Riddle: Did they have the classic DC 8 interior with curtains, Palomar seats and the Palomar seat mounted reading lights?



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5164 posts, RR: 43
Reply 17, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3545 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 16):
BTW, with those leased DC 8 54's that were from Riddle: Did they have the classic DC 8 interior with curtains, Palomar seats and the Palomar seat mounted reading lights?

Yes, built in 1963, they would have been equipped with a Palomar seats and curtains. The only "short" DC-8s ever built without Palomar seats were the three DC-8-53s built for AC in 1968. (LN 384, 390 and 402)



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4594 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3509 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 16):
To the best of my knowledge the only time National ever used 707's were when they leased them from Pan Am in the late 50's and early 60's awaiting delivery of their DC-8 jets.

Quite right. Forgot about that chapter in NA's history.

I've got a book on National packed away somewhere - I probably should put it back on my "active" bookshelf!  


User currently offlineCoachClass From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3462 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 15):
I don't recall NA ever operating 707s. I think they were on DC8-54s.



I'll accept that maybe I'm wrong about the B707, but did the DC-8-54's have the legs to go non-stop to London from Miami? I know that we did not stop for refueling.

As a side note, I flew couple years earlier (8/1968) on International Air Bahama DC-8 with those reading lights by your head from NAS to LUX...student, young adult fares and I recall that we did stop at Bermuda en route to LUX to get fuel. So that DC-8, what ever the model was, didn't have the legs that night. I returned year later via Loftleider via KEF or REK and JFK, so I don't know about the possible stop in Shannon on the return as the itinerary indicated they might.


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3038 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3439 times:

Some information about IAB/Loftleidir operations here:

http://www.dc-8jet.com/iabdc863.htm


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3038 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3427 times:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bill Sheridan



Operated via both Shannon and Keflavik at differing times.


User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6903 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3404 times:

Quoting musang (Reply 12):
for 3845 nm the payload would be only about 58% of the DC-8-54CF's maximum .

58% of the 90000-lb? freighter maximum payload. Plenty of payload for full pax and their baggage.


User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6637 posts, RR: 21
Reply 23, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3394 times:

What did National use transatlantic when the DC-10s were grounded???


I feel woozy....what did you put in that Pudding Pop?
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4594 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3385 times:

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 19):
I'll accept that maybe I'm wrong about the B707, but did the DC-8-54's have the legs to go non-stop to London from Miami? I know that we did not stop for refueling.

Yeah, not a problem.


25 CoachClass : Thanks for the site and picture for International Air Bahama. Brings back lots of memories going from West Palm Beach to Kiel, Germany for school in
26 dtw9 : You're not wrong about National using 707's, just when and where to. National leased 707's from Pan Am in November 1959 for New York-Miami services.
27 ozark1 : Great thread! No, the only time NA leased 707's was from Pan Am right when the 70 was first inaugurated. Wonder what the seating configuration was on
28 Post contains links dtw9 : If you just can't get enough of the Sun King, then go here http://www.facebook.com/pages/National-Airlines/221406957904350
29 longhauler : If you are sure about the dates, then I think you have your aircraft mixed up. International Air Bahama did not operate DC-8s until October 1969, but
30 tymnbalewne : Re: NA 707s...were the painted in NA colors or did they remain in PA's livery? If they were in NA colors...any pics?
31 skycub : That is a good question. Anyone know?
32 Viscount724 : If memory correct they remained in Pan Am livery.
33 longhauler : As a lot of airlines were affected, there was not a lot of spare lift to be found or leased. Initially most airlines just cancelled flights. And once
34 Post contains images cf6ppe : That was a long time ago, but, IIRC NAL did not operate their overseas flights (during the time of the DC10 grounding). Interestingly, NAL (for the p
35 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : From National's October 26, 1958 timetable.
36 doulasc : I always wondered why National leased two DC-8-54 jet traders from airlift for their MIA-LHR route in 1970. National had DC-8-21(non fan) and some DC-
37 cf6ppe : Significance: October 26, 1958, the date of the first PanAm B707 TAL trip, i.e., the B707s entry into service. Viscount727, thanks for the NAL timeta
38 Viscount724 : Probably not. The DC-8-21 was the domestic model but equipped with the more powerful JT4A engines of the long-range -30 series with a small increase
39 zippyjet : But, Longhauler remembered the Palomar seats with the seat back reading light. Quite different from a Boeing 707 seat. Is the picture above what you
40 Viscount724 : The 727 was a much more economic and versatile replacement for the Electra than the 720 considering National's route network.
41 maxpower1954 : The difference is the 20 series DC-8 and the -51 didn't have the center and aux fuel tanks of the 54/55 series. I flew N108RD and N109RD in 1978/79 as
42 zippyjet : Thank you, I should have been more specific: There was a period of about three years before the 727 where the 720 could have been used. Eastern bough
43 maxpower1954 : According to "The Anatomy of an Airline", George Baker wanted 720s, but waited too long and lost the early delivery positions. But Douglas didn't kno
44 maxpower1954 : The 720 was developed as a Convair 880 killer and once the 727 was introduced in 1964 was on the way out. The DC-8s and Electras bridged that three y
45 longhauler : Not quite sure what you are getting at here. Using the dates that CoachClass supplied, I was suggesting that he flew on a B707 not a DC-8 on NAS-SNN-
46 Post contains images longhauler : Here you go! (figured it out)
47 zippyjet : I got you and Coach Class replies confused. Regarding the picture, there may be easier ways but scan the picture to your computer then here on A-Net
48 milesrich : National did not lease specific planes. The planes were all PA 707-121's and were rotated through the system at IDL and MIA. I believe National crews
49 Post contains images zippyjet : Thank you Longhauler! Now, if they could have omitted that 1950's jet set couple and feature the fictitious National Airlines painted 707. Back in th
50 Yukon880 : Thanks for posting the advert Longhauler... Diehard DC-8 fan that I am, I would love to have seen a short-finned, straight-pipe 707 in the "Airline of
51 timz : In 1958-59 (at least) it seems the 707s went back and forth PA to NA-- NA didn't have any all to themselves. The NA trips for each 707 fit between th
52 deltacto : Thanks for sharing this awesome site! Including Lots of DC-8 pics!
53 doulasc : I don't mean to get off topic but at the same period when National was flying Pan Am 707s from IDL-MIA Northeast Airlines was doing the same sort of
54 maxpower1954 : I thought of that as well, having learned about in an "Airways" magazine a year or two ago. Operated by Northeast flight and cabin crews, I believe i
55 zippyjet : Didn't the airline that always seemed to be in an accident of the month club lease UA 720's to fly to MIA from the Northeast and Midwest before they
56 Post contains images Yukon880 : Zippy... I see what you did there!
57 Post contains links maxpower1954 : Zippyjet is refering to this: http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/ca2/ca61/ca61-01.jpg The UAL 720s were operated by United crews, the merger was
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