musang From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 754 posts, RR: 7 Posted (4 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4672 times:
From a thread in Jan 2011:
"National began service on the MIA-LHR route June 15, 1970 with two DC-8-54Fs, leased from MIA-based cargo airline Airlift International........ The DC-8s were returned by July 1973 and April 1974"
Yukon880 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 113 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (4 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4460 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT
Regarding N108RD and N109RD...
Both of these DC-8 Jet Traders were initially leased by Douglas, to U.S. supplemental carrier Riddle Airlines, which became Airlift International shortly thereafter. While cargo was their primary focus, they also provided passenger charter service as well.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4275 posts, RR: 36 Reply 7, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3827 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5): I can't recall National using the DC-8-61 to LHR. I doubt it would have had the range to do it nonstop without a heavy payload penalty.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 6): I suspect it was a stopgap measure. I recall reading it was due to delayed 741 deliveries.
I am thinking it was more likely awaiting the delivery of the DC-10-30s, as that was around the time the DC-8-54s were going back to the lessor. The two B747-100s of NA were delivered in 1970.
It would have been quite a stretch for a DC-8-61, however I read that the initial load factor for the flight was around 45%, for a DC-8-54 ... that would make me think a 30% LF for a DC-8-61 made the flight possible.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
dtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1044 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3754 times:
The 61's were never used for LHR service. They were used between New York and Miami and Miami and Los Angeles. The 747's were delivered in the fall of 1970 and were used to replace the DC-8-61's. During the summers of 72,73,and 1974 they were placed on the MIA-LHR route but returned to the New York to Miami and Miami to Los Angeles routes in the winter. In 1973 National took delivery of their first two DC-10-30's for transatlantic service
CoachClass From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 356 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3664 times:
I flew the National MIA-LHR flight r/t in 1972 (maybe 73) on a student fare--you only had to be less than 25 yrs old. Because the DC-8 which they flew domestically could not reach LHR non-stop, they leased a couple of B707s, as I recall, that could make the journey non-stop. The only thing I'm not really sure of is whether it was Gatwick or Heathrow. It was easy to get into London, which makes me think LGW. Also to come back to the USA from Paris, I flew AF to the same airport to connect with National back to MIA.
yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15989 posts, RR: 59 Reply 10, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3448 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 7): It would have been quite a stretch for a DC-8-61, however I read that the initial load factor for the flight was around 45%, for a DC-8-54 ... that would make me think a 30% LF for a DC-8-61 made the flight possible.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 7): The 61's were never used for LHR service.
If you google seach National MIA-LHR you will be pointed to a 2004 discussion on airliners.net where someone indicated the DC-8-61 was used on MIA-LHR. So who knows?
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
rutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 1997 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3284 times:
I have been looking at my child hood logs and early issues of Air Pictorial for 1970-1973 concerning this issue and can find no evidence of the DC-8-61 visits.
My own logs and fathers are for just about every weekend and some weekdays.
They not comprehensive but would have expected them to be documented in the notable visitors of Air Pictorial and i can't find any entries in either.
The two DC-8-54CF s appear in most logs in 1970-1971 and again occasional later .
The 747s appear after May 1972 through to September 1973 then the DC10-30s show up.
Others of interest in 1970 there were logged visits of Delta DC-8s (presumed Pan-Am exchanges), whilst summer 1971 has Northwest Orient 707s and 1973 back to Delta this time with 747s !
which doesn't state whether IFR reserves are included) that for 3845 nm the payload would be only about 58% of the DC-8-54CF's maximum . I wondered about the resultant economic viability of operating non-stop. I realise that all seats full + no cargo is nowhere near the payload limit, and this condition would enable a range of about 4700 nm (based on off-the-top-of-my-head estimates of seat capacity and passenger + bag weight), but wondered if this was viable.
However, no-one's mentioned stops amongst all the other detailed recollections, so my supposition was ill-founded!
Yukon880 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 113 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3065 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT
Quoting musang (Reply 12): However, no-one's mentioned stops amongst all the other detailed recollections, so my supposition was ill-founded!
While you could make the case that the leased DC-8s were actually "Freighter capable," that's not the mission that National used them for. And as we know, airlines were able to make money, back in the day, on (passenger) load factors that would be unheard of today!
So, rather than look at the exercise as an ill-founded supposition...
I say, look at the great discussion that came as a result!
N62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3671 posts, RR: 4 Reply 15, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2540 times:
Quoting CoachClass (Reply 9): Because the DC-8 which they flew domestically could not reach LHR non-stop, they leased a couple of B707s, as I recall, that could make the journey non-stop.
I don't recall NA ever operating 707s. I think they were on DC8-54s.
zippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 4720 posts, RR: 13 Reply 16, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2370 times:
To the best of my knowledge the only time National ever used 707's were when they leased them from Pan Am in the late 50's and early 60's awaiting delivery of their DC-8 jets. And that was for their New York to Miami service.
BTW, with those leased DC 8 54's that were from Riddle: Did they have the classic DC 8 interior with curtains, Palomar seats and the Palomar seat mounted reading lights?
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4275 posts, RR: 36 Reply 17, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2304 times:
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 16): BTW, with those leased DC 8 54's that were from Riddle: Did they have the classic DC 8 interior with curtains, Palomar seats and the Palomar seat mounted reading lights?
Yes, built in 1963, they would have been equipped with a Palomar seats and curtains. The only "short" DC-8s ever built without Palomar seats were the three DC-8-53s built for AC in 1968. (LN 384, 390 and 402)
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
N62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3671 posts, RR: 4 Reply 18, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2268 times:
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 16): To the best of my knowledge the only time National ever used 707's were when they leased them from Pan Am in the late 50's and early 60's awaiting delivery of their DC-8 jets.
Quite right. Forgot about that chapter in NA's history.
I've got a book on National packed away somewhere - I probably should put it back on my "active" bookshelf!
CoachClass From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 356 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2221 times:
Quoting N62NA (Reply 15): I don't recall NA ever operating 707s. I think they were on DC8-54s.
I'll accept that maybe I'm wrong about the B707, but did the DC-8-54's have the legs to go non-stop to London from Miami? I know that we did not stop for refueling.
As a side note, I flew couple years earlier (8/1968) on International Air Bahama DC-8 with those reading lights by your head from NAS to LUX...student, young adult fares and I recall that we did stop at Bermuda en route to LUX to get fuel. So that DC-8, what ever the model was, didn't have the legs that night. I returned year later via Loftleider via KEF or REK and JFK, so I don't know about the possible stop in Shannon on the return as the itinerary indicated they might.
N62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3671 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2144 times:
Quoting CoachClass (Reply 19): I'll accept that maybe I'm wrong about the B707, but did the DC-8-54's have the legs to go non-stop to London from Miami? I know that we did not stop for refueling.
Thanks for the site and picture for International Air Bahama. Brings back lots of memories going from West Palm Beach to Kiel, Germany for school in August '68. And the return via Loftleider's CL-44. I still recall it like it was last week, even remembering the fish fillet and omelet from REK to JFK.
dtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1044 posts, RR: 2 Reply 26, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2191 times:
Quoting CoachClass (Reply 19): I'll accept that maybe I'm wrong about the B707
You're not wrong about National using 707's, just when and where to. National leased 707's from Pan Am in November 1959 for New York-Miami services. These 707's operated alongside Nationals first DC-8's from Feb-April 1960 before their return to Pan Am.
ozark1 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 207 posts, RR: 0 Reply 27, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2227 times:
Great thread! No, the only time NA leased 707's was from Pan Am right when the 70 was first inaugurated. Wonder what the seating configuration was on the 54's they used.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4275 posts, RR: 36 Reply 29, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2110 times:
Quoting CoachClass (Reply 19): As a side note, I flew couple years earlier (8/1968) on International Air Bahama DC-8 with those reading lights by your head from NAS to LUX...student, young adult fares and I recall that we did stop at Bermuda en route to LUX to get fuel.
If you are sure about the dates, then I think you have your aircraft mixed up.
International Air Bahama did not operate DC-8s until October 1969, but did operate a B707 from July 1968 to October 1969, on the routing you mention, NAS-SNN-LUX. So I am going to guess it was a B707 on which you flew in 1968.
Then in 1972 (or 1973), it was a leased DC-8-54 on which you flew MIA-LHR. (The DC-8-54 is more than capable to fly MIA-LHR-MIA nonstop). The over-the-shoulder reading lights were a feature of the Palomar seats of the DC-8-54, and likely that is when you saw them.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
tymnbalewne From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 912 posts, RR: 1 Reply 30, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2084 times:
Re: NA 707s...were the painted in NA colors or did they remain in PA's livery? If they were in NA colors...any pics?
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4275 posts, RR: 36 Reply 33, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1997 times:
Quoting skycub (Reply 31): That is a good question. Anyone know?
As a lot of airlines were affected, there was not a lot of spare lift to be found or leased. Initially most airlines just cancelled flights.
And once the cause of the DC-10 crash in ORD was found to be maintenance procedures, and the FAA grounding was mostly grandstanding and showboating ... most international carriers just flew them again.
Quoting tymnbalewne (Reply 30): Re: NA 707s...were the painted in NA colors or did they remain in PA's livery?
The lease was very short term. 5 months over the winter of 1958/59 and 5 1/2 months over the winter of 1959/60. Being so short, I would doubt the aircraft were painted. The only picture I have shows a Pan American B707 in full Pan Am livery, boarded from national boarding stairs.
There is a picture of a "National B707" in an advertisement, but it states in the legend that the photo is retouched.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
cf6ppe From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 306 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1975 times:
Quoting skycub (Reply 31): Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 23):
What did National use transatlantic when the DC-10s were grounded???
That is a good question. Anyone know?
That was a long time ago, but, IIRC NAL did not operate their overseas flights (during the time of the DC10 grounding).
Interestingly, NAL (for the period that the DC10s were grounded) became a B727 only airline. For instance their MIA->LAX and return trips were operated with a re-fuel stop at IAH - i.e., the to be refueled aircraft met a fuel truck on a IAH ramp, was refueled, and then continued to their destination.
I made the MIA->LHR->MIA probably in Feb. 1973 on the DC8-54CF equipment.
EAL sent a party of ten powerplant engineering, and powerplant shop planning and managers to the R-R RB.211 facility a Derby to access the parts support for the upcoming upgrade of the RB.211-22C powerplants to RB.211-22B models. Half of the party had to go to JFK and take PanAm across to LHR. It turned out that NAL knew how to take care of their passengers - amazing trip - I said somewhere else on A.Net that I was three cocktails behind by the time the landing gears were retracted and doors closed.
Re: NAL use of the PanAm B707s. My first fearless leader at EAL was H.J Martin who had worked at NAL at the time of the B707 ops. What happened was when the PanAm B707s arrived back at JFK in the afternoon, they were evaluated for write-ups. If the aircraft was fairly clean, then NAL would use that PanAm frame for a RT JFK->MIA. These B707 ops made NAL the first jet operator in the USA, quite a bragging item at the time.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21464 posts, RR: 24 Reply 35, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1939 times:
Quoting cf6ppe (Reply 34): Re: NAL use of the PanAm B707s. My first fearless leader at EAL was H.J Martin who had worked at NAL at the time of the B707 ops. What happened was when the PanAm B707s arrived back at JFK in the afternoon, they were evaluated for write-ups. If the aircraft was fairly clean, then NAL would use that PanAm frame for a RT JFK->MIA. These B707 ops made NAL the first jet operator in the USA, quite a bragging item at the time.
doulasc From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 348 posts, RR: 0 Reply 36, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1884 times:
I always wondered why National leased two DC-8-54 jet traders from airlift for their MIA-LHR route in 1970. National had DC-8-21(non fan) and some DC-8-51(fan engines). Didn't those DC-8s have the range to do MIA-LHR? Plenty of DC-8s did trans-atlantic from JFK.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21464 posts, RR: 24 Reply 38, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1854 times:
Quoting doulasc (Reply 36): National had DC-8-21(non fan) and some DC-8-51(fan engines). Didn't those DC-8s have the range to do MIA-LHR?
Probably not. The DC-8-21 was the domestic model but equipped with the more powerful JT4A engines of the long-range -30 series with a small increase in gross takeoff weight from the -10 series. And the -51 was the lowest-gross weight model of the -50 series. The -54F like those wet-leased from Airlift for the MIA-LHR route had a max. takeoff weight roughly 40,000 lbs. heavier than the -51.
In addition, I doubt National's own DC-8s would have had intercontinental navigation and radio equipment.
zippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 4720 posts, RR: 13 Reply 39, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1775 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 29): f you are sure about the dates, then I think you have your aircraft mixed up.
International Air Bahama did not operate DC-8s until October 1969, but did operate a B707 from July 1968 to October 1969, on the routing you mention, NAS-SNN-LUX. So I am going to guess it was a B707 on which you flew in 1968.
But, Longhauler remembered the Palomar seats with the seat back reading light. Quite different from a Boeing 707 seat.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 33): There is a picture of a "National B707" in an advertisement, but it states in the legend that the photo is retouched.
Is the picture above what you remembered? If not do you have that picture to scan and share with us.
BTW, back in the late 1950's what was National's reason for going with the DC-8 instead of the 707? And just speculating, how would National have done back then if they bought or leased Boeing 720's to fly along or phase out their Electra turbo props?
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21464 posts, RR: 24 Reply 40, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1771 times:
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 39): how would National have done back then if they bought or leased Boeing 720's to fly along or phase out their Electra turbo props?
The 727 was a much more economic and versatile replacement for the Electra than the 720 considering National's route network.
maxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 854 posts, RR: 5 Reply 41, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1761 times:
The difference is the 20 series DC-8 and the -51 didn't have the center and aux fuel tanks of the 54/55 series.
I flew N108RD and N109RD in 1978/79 as an Airlift F/E; also in 1982-84 with Arrow Air as F/O and captain. I even flew 108RD from MIA to PAP with a load of 120 smelly, sqeauling pigs which remains a career highlight for me. Both were far removed from the glory days of National's London service, that's for sure!
I also flew both of the ex- National DC-8-61s with ONA. They were domestic A/C only, no long-range nav or HF radios.
The 707s were always in full Pan Am colors during the 1958/59 and 1959/60 leases. They were flown by National flight crews only. I have a 1978 National employee publication celebrating the 20th anniversary of the first domestic jet service, which mentioned most of the crews that bid the 707 felt jet travel would be a passing fad and they wanted to fly one before they were pulled from service, which shows how much pilots know!
zippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 4720 posts, RR: 13 Reply 42, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1739 times:
Thank you, I should have been more specific: There was a period of about three years before the 727 where the 720 could have been used. Eastern bought or leased 720's from about 1961 through 1971 which eventually served along with 727's and DC-9's.
maxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 854 posts, RR: 5 Reply 43, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1733 times:
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 39): BTW, back in the late 1950's what was National's reason for going with the DC-8 instead of the 707? And just speculating, how would National have done back then if they bought or leased Boeing 720's to fly along or phase out their Electra turbo props?
According to "The Anatomy of an Airline", George Baker wanted 720s, but waited too long and lost the early delivery positions. But Douglas didn't know that, and Baker negotiated a deal nearly 1 million off the 6 million list price. National was a long time Douglas customer they didn't want to lose.
maxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 854 posts, RR: 5 Reply 44, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1713 times:
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 42): Thank you, I should have been more specific: There was a period of about three years before the 727 where the 720 could have been used. Eastern bought or leased 720's from about 1961 through 1971 which eventually served along with 727's and DC-9's.
The 720 was developed as a Convair 880 killer and once the 727 was introduced in 1964 was on the way out. The DC-8s and Electras bridged that three year gap very nicely.
National under Bud Maytag was a well-run airline flying two or three aircraft types, versus Eastern which had a history of operating everything under the sun.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4275 posts, RR: 36 Reply 45, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1661 times:
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 39): But, Longhauler remembered the Palomar seats with the seat back reading light. Quite different from a Boeing 707 seat.
Not quite sure what you are getting at here.
Using the dates that CoachClass supplied, I was suggesting that he flew on a B707 not a DC-8 on NAS-SNN-LUX, as International Air Bahama was not flying DC-8s at that time. And ... that it was not a B707 but a DC-8 on which he flew MIA-LHR, as NA was not operating B707s from MIA to LHR.
If he remembers the Palomar seats that he accurately described, it was likely on the DC-8 he flew from MIA to LHR.
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 39): Is the picture above what you remembered? If not do you have that picture to scan and share with us.
No, that wasn't the picture. The picture I saw had the aircraft on the ground, with the National paint scheme on the engines and tail. I can scan the picture, I am not sure how to post a picture I have scanned.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
zippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 4720 posts, RR: 13 Reply 47, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1655 times:
Regarding the picture, there may be easier ways but scan the picture to your computer then here on A-Net for your profile you can post several pictures. Then in your reply click the picture you just scanned and saved to your profile. Hope I'm making sense.
milesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1855 posts, RR: 7 Reply 48, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1586 times:
Quoting tymnbalewne (Reply 30): Re: NA 707s...were the painted in NA colors or did they remain in PA's livery? If they were in NA colors...any pics?
National did not lease specific planes. The planes were all PA 707-121's and were rotated through the system at IDL and MIA. I believe National crews flew them, but they were Pan Am planes and were not repainted. They were only leased during the peak winter East Coast to Florida travel season when Transatlantic traffic was slowest. Additionally, by the fall of 1959, Pan Am had 707-321's. The airplanes Pan Am flew were domestic versions that could not fly the Atlanta westbound nonstop with normal prevailing winds and had to stop in Gander for fuel.
zippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 4720 posts, RR: 13 Reply 49, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1519 times:
Thank you Longhauler! Now, if they could have omitted that 1950's jet set couple and feature the fictitious National Airlines painted 707. Back in the day this must have been a major feat to make it look like a real airliner in beautiful black and white with the airline livery. An early example of "Modified Airliners." Hint hopefully someone will make a National Airline Of The Stars Boeing 707 on the site and in living color.
Though maybe off topic but here's another example of airline fantasy.
Yukon880 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 113 posts, RR: 2 Reply 50, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1408 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT
Thanks for posting the advert Longhauler...
Diehard DC-8 fan that I am,
I would love to have seen a short-finned, straight-pipe 707 in the "Airline of the Stars" livery!
timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6465 posts, RR: 8 Reply 51, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1234 times:
Quoting tymnbalewne (Reply 30): NA 707s...were the painted in NA colors or did they remain in PA's livery?
In 1958-59 (at least) it seems the 707s went back and forth PA to NA-- NA didn't have any all to themselves. The NA trips for each 707 fit between the PA transatlantic trips.
I don't mean to get off topic but at the same period when National was flying Pan Am 707s from IDL-MIA Northeast Airlines was doing the same sort of thing flying a 707 from TWA on their IDL-MIA route.
maxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 854 posts, RR: 5 Reply 54, posted (4 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 980 times:
Quoting doulasc (Reply 53): I don't mean to get off topic but at the same period when National was flying Pan Am 707s from IDL-MIA Northeast Airlines was doing the same sort of thing flying a 707 from TWA on their IDL-MIA route.
I thought of that as well, having learned about in an "Airways" magazine a year or two ago. Operated by Northeast flight and cabin crews, I believe it was the winter of 1960/61.
Didn't the airline that always seemed to be in an accident of the month club lease UA 720's to fly to MIA from the Northeast and Midwest before they were taken over (put out of their misery by UA)?
Sponsor Message: 
From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 754 posts, 
From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4275 posts, 
From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 113 posts, 
From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21464 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
){kind=link}