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Why No Direct NYC-ANC  
User currently offlinebambicruz From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 294 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 12449 times:

Forgive me if this has been discussed before but the search feature didn't come up with much...

I'm planning a trip to Alaska in 2013 and was surprised to notice there was no non-stop flights from either JFK or EWR to Anchorage. You either have to transfer at ORD or SEA. If Chicago can sustain direct flights to Anchorage, then I would assume NYC surely can as well.

Can someone shed some light as to why Anchorage does not have a direct link to NYC?

Thanks


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76 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16885 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 12442 times:

CO used to fly EWR-ANC nonstop seasonally, I suspect this route will return at somepoint.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3171 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 12424 times:

ANC-ORD is pushing the limits of the 737NG, but still doable with reasonable payload. Hence AS is able to fly the route.

ANC-JFK / EWR is too far for a 737. So you need at least a 757, and you might not be able to fill it during the winter.


User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4451 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 12345 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 2):
ANC-JFK / EWR is too far for a 737

Is it not even possible with 739ERs with additional tanks?


User currently offlinepremobrimo From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 12327 times:

Don't forget MSP-ANC!

4x Daily 757 service in the summer.



Now You're Flying Smart.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16885 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 12258 times:

CO's EWR-ANC flight was with a 738 IIRC.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 12251 times:

Quoting TK787 (Reply 3):
Is it not even possible with 739ERs with additional tanks?

The range of the 739ER with the additional tanks is ~3250NM and the distance from Anchorage to NYC is 3370MN



"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlinemesaflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3199 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 12075 times:
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Quoting STT757 (Reply 5):

Wow, did they have to take a payload restriction?

[Edited 2012-12-28 08:47:14]


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User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11988 times:

Great circle NYC-ANC is 2931 NM. Quite doable in a 737/320. ORD-ANC is 2473 NM.

User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11834 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 2):
ANC-JFK / EWR is too far for a 737. So you need at least a 757, and you might not be able to fill it during the winter.

Or a B737-700.

Actually it´s quite strange that nobody flies the route, not even few times a week, when a city-hub like MSP can sustain 4xday B757 in summer.


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9666 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11824 times:

LAX cannot even maintain year round service to ANC. ORD is a gateway to the eastern US and AS code shares with AA. However for the ,ost part during the winter all flights to Alaska go via SEA. Summer has an interesting mix of seasonal routes for tourists and cruise traffic.8


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently onlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1689 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11791 times:

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 8):
Great circle NYC-ANC is 2931 NM. Quite doable in a 737/320. ORD-ANC is 2473 NM.

It could be done, but "quite doable" is an overstatement considering the longest 737 route in the world is 2,941nm on Copa's PTY-MVD. Comparatively, a westbound NYC-ANC would also face much stiffer headwinds than Copa's largely north-south routes into deep South America, which could make things difficult.

I suspect the reason for the lack of non-stops is that there wouldn't be a substantial fare premium for the non-stop and the demand to/from ANC is scattered enough throughout the eastern portion of the USA that it's just as easy to connect folks through a Western or Midwestern hub rather than fly them all the way to NYC and then connect.


User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11603 times:

Does UA run IAH-ANC, and on what? And what does AA operate to DFW? I didn't realize how much of a stretch this would be on a 737. I could see a 752 4x weekly working, and the MAX could fit quite well on the route if it meets expectations.

User currently offlinejetbluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2992 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11529 times:

I can see B6 giving JFK-ANC a try when its A321's start coming online. B6's ANC-LGB/SEA flights, which offer onward connections to JFK, could help B6 determine the true demand for a non-stop flight.

That said, an A321 is far too much capacity for the winter months. I think this route would be seasonal.

JetBluefan1



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User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11497 times:

I think that JFK-ANC is too far for the 321. I could see it as a 320NEO route in the future.

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16885 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11429 times:

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 12):
Does UA run IAH-ANC, and on what?

Yup, big oil route. It will be operated by a sUA 757 this Spring.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently onlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1689 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11388 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
Yup, big oil route. It will be operated by a sUA 757 this Spring.

It is a seasonal route, though. UA/CO has long operated a one-stop IAH-SEA-ANC route and supplemented it with summer seasonal non-stop service. CO usually switched the flight numbers in the summer such that EWR-SEA-ANC was the through flight, not sure if UA is doing this still. I know UA is adding a second SEA-ANC rotation, which I assume is a continuation from EWR.


User currently offlinesancho99504 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11370 times:

The 73G and A319 can do NYC-ANC with minimal restrictions. Westbound would block in around 7:52, which could push fuel reserves, while The question is, can they do it for a profit?


kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11292 times:

UA does DEN-ANC on a 738 just fine.


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User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11265 times:

ANC-DEN is 2090 NM, about 900NM shorter than NYC and 400NM shorter than ORD.

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16885 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11241 times:

Quoting steex (Reply 16):
UA/CO has long operated a one-stop IAH-SEA-ANC route and supplemented it with summer seasonal non-stop service. CO usually switched the flight numbers in the summer such that EWR-SEA-ANC was the through flight, not sure if UA is doing this still.

CO used to have both SEA-ANC and PDX-ANC, I believe the PDX-ANC flight originated in IAH and the SEA-ANC flight originated in EWR.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11215 times:

If you were UA, you could choose between your 737 operating a dangerously long non profitable route about once a day, or have it operate 3 or more daily profitable east coast runs. The 737/319 could do it, but it just doesn't make sense for the airline. That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see it return as a 757, MAX, or NEO route at some point.

User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 11113 times:

It really comes down to yield and allocation of resources. Yes, the market is there but is there enough yield on there to tie up a plane for several hours when that same plane could be doing multiple flights on shorter segments and earning more revenue/ yield?

User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 10785 times:

Quoting bambicruz (Thread starter):
If Chicago can sustain direct flights to Anchorage, then I would assume NYC surely can as well.

It's not Chicago sustaining the direct flight, it's connecting traffic going through Chicago. Chicago is collecting traffic from the entire Eastern US. It makes no sense to fly east to NYC only to connect and fly west again to ANC, and NYC by itself doesn't have enough traffic.

Quoting TK787 (Reply 3):
Is it not even possible with 739ERs with additional tanks?

Extra tanks are almost guaranteed to kill the economics of a route like that, even if they allowed you to get there. You pay a very heavy payload penalty (in both weight and space terms) for that extra few hundred miles. NYC-ANC would be a great revenue cargo route but you'd have nowhere to put the cargo.

Tom.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25648 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9878 times:

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 19):
ANC-DEN is 2090 NM, about 900NM shorter than NYC and 400NM shorter than ORD.

But JFK/EWR are at sea level and ORD is only 668 ft. ASL. DEN's 5,431 ft. elevation must offset some of the difference in mileage.


25 UA787DEN : A bit. I will say one thing: 16,000 ft runway/12,000 ft runways. The design range on a 738 is long enough that DEN doesn't really affect the DEN-ANC
26 atct : As of last summer we had the following from UA/CO IAH-ANC B757-300 EWR-SEA-ANC B739 (earlier flight) IAH-SEA-ANC B739 (Later flight) ORD-ANC B738 DEN-
27 RWA380 : When did CO do PDX-ANC, back in the 70's and 80's with their interchange flights with AS or WA? I know for sure TW operated PDX-ANC as a STL-PDX-ANC
28 Prost : Also, keep in mind that the Anchorage MSA population is only 380,000 so you're not talking a large population base that isn't being served.
29 FlyDeltaJets : That flight was never a true direct. It always stopped in IAH and I believe it was a 739 that operated this route.
30 Post contains links and images bomber996 : By less than 1NM. DEN is just much closer than NYC http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=anc-den%0D%0Aanc-jfk&MS=wls&DU=mi Peace
31 UA787DEN : DEN is nicely positioned. But to all...what are the chances of NYC-ANC opening as a MAX/NEO route in the future? B6, UA, DL, even AA.
32 TWA772LR : I can see AA do a 3x weekly A319 NEO flight.
33 UA787DEN : I don't know who will serve it, but I expect it in a few years.
34 keithh233 : Summer of 2010 actually. I am not sure if they ran it years before or not.
35 Yukon880 : "Why No Direct NYC-ANC... ?" m- o- n- e- y... simple!
36 iowaman : Maybe DL could run a 762 JFK-ANC during the summer? Does a 752 have range for summer EWR-ANC on UA? Just thinking out loud here.
37 Post contains images bomber996 : No 762 from DL anymore. Peace
38 UA787DEN : The 762 has bad economics. Horrid. Also, the 762 is way too premium heavy and way too much capacity. DL would lose a ton of money.
39 RWA380 : I did not know this, I know CO has been big here at PDX on and off since the 1960's but after 2000, it's never been much.
40 PassedV1 : I am not sure that any US carriers have ordered the 900ER's with extra tanks. Alaska for sure has not. I don't believe that United has the extra tank
41 varigb707 : I flew NW ANC-MSP ON Sept 08 2001, then MSP-DFW.
42 Yukon880 : Kudos to UA/LV... The way I see it, this is the bottom line. Airframe capability certainly has bearing on the equation, but it does not change the ec
43 airbazar : NYC is too far East to be a good connection point for ANC, and as stated can't be done with a 737/A320. The main carriers have hubs that are closer to
44 brilondon : I had the same question as to whether there was enough traffic to justify the equipment for the route. You are not going to have enough demand for th
45 EWRandMDW : I recall recent US summer PHL-ANC nonstops on a 757. PHL is only a very short distance farther west and south than EWR. If that service can succeed a
46 Yukon880 : This seasonal service lasted two summers and was not part of the mix for 2012.
47 reifel : In the GDS this summer it shows this flight with a stop in SEA though...
48 UA787DEN : To all who want a 762 or 757 on the route: most airlines aren't starting new routes with these planes. A 762 is way too much plane and very premium he
49 Post contains images Citationjet : I agree, that is the reason why ORD can support the ANC service, while NYC cannot.
50 UA787DEN : ORD has better connections, to th US and still serves Europe. It is also slightly shorter, and easier to operate with a 737. Lower fuel costs and prob
51 tdscanuck : Summer is tourism, but winter is oil. Oil falls firmly into the "have to go" catagory but there's a lot of them. Tom.
52 ushermittwoch : I can attest to that. I have been bumped out of ANC on an NW 757-300 flight in early December before.
53 airbazar : First, Anchorage is far from being in the arctic. It's actually quite mild, relatively speaking because it's a coastal city. Secondly there is traffi
54 UA787DEN : ANC is indeed a winter route also. But the NYC airlines would rather serve a city such as NCE or AMS in the winter with that kind of equipment. Any ch
55 slcdeltarumd11 : There is certainly demand in the summer to fill a plane but its mostly toursists and people going on longer trips not willing to pay a heavy premium f
56 RobertS975 : Rather than continuing to argue about the demand for NYC-ANC direct service, somebody here must know how to look up the stats on daily average travel
57 UA787DEN : I think that NYC-ANC has plenty of demand. But most pax would be willing to connect somewhere. Add in the aircraft limits and the fact that many summe
58 PassedV1 : I think the only airline that I think would have a even a remote chance of starting this service is AS and an even smaller chance would be B6. As sta
59 mah4546 : Small metro, but Anchorage is an wealthy metro and it's residents have a very high propensity of travel compared to others.
60 Post contains links Prost : I agree, but I don't think that its significant enough to render year round NYC-ANC viable. I know that when the Alaska Permanent Fund checks come ou
61 mah4546 : No, but it's why ANC can maintain service to places like Chicago and Hawai'i year-round, and it's probably why Icelandair is coming.
62 Yukon880 : Which begs the following... How likely would it be for AS to task a brand new MAX to the route, for all the reasons already discussed?
63 COEWRNJ : It was a true non-stop. I beleive it was a 757-200
64 RobertS975 : There are many DL stations, for example, that do not have direct service to MSP or SLC that do have service to JFK. Pax originating in those stations
65 bobnwa : Why would NYC/ANC flight stop in IAH?
66 Yukon880 : With respect Robert, I'm not grasping the point you are driving at here. And what particular cities with DL JFK service, but no MSP/SLC did you have
67 UA787DEN : Many of us, me included, think there is a fair amount of demand. That won't make the route profitable.
68 atct : If it was profitable, UA (from EWR), DL (from JFK) or US (PHL) would be flying it. Pretty plain and simple. In regards to winter traffic its feast or
69 ANCsupercub : And MSP. Additionally, while the Anchorage metro is only 380,000, ANC draws from the entire state. IMO Alaskans travel much more than those from the
70 spchamp1 : I dont see that at all. There is no reason to do that when you can simply run customers through LGB or SEA. I dont think B6 would want to tie up an a
71 TWA772LR : If they order the 73GMAX or A319NEO, I will bet my left arm that they start EWR-ANC, seasonal, x-amount weekly, etc...
72 burnsie28 : Add in that typically during the summer ANC see's 1x DTW as well. The A320 can't even come close to making it. NW tried running the A320 MSP-ANC year
73 Yukon880 : While not specifically pertinent to the OP topic, DL did not operate the seasonal ANC/DTW for 2012. Additionally, and I think this speaks volumes of
74 Flighty : MSP has always been the lead for ANC other than SEA with its local & southbound connections. MSP generally is the shortest distance hub with the
75 RobertS975 : Again, most passengers strive to make just a single connection. So you need to look through the list of DL stations and determine how many points are
76 sancho99504 : Either the CFM powered A320s are grossly infurior to iAE powered A320s, or NWs just suck. US/HP operates PhX-ANC with A320 in the summer and a319 in
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