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Set Ontario Intl CA Free  
User currently offlinelke2fly From United States of America, joined May 2011, 70 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5235 times:

Since Ontario Int in CA is trying to free its self from LAWA and be independently own by the city of Ontario is it possible that more airlines will try to get a spot in Ontario? I heard that If the city of Ontario takes over the landing fees will be lowered to gain more airlines.
I don't know the process as to how an airline company needs to do to get a spot at a airport. I would like to see B6 and maybe a international carriers fly out of ONT.
Any ideas what could happen if ONT goes independent.

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2981 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5199 times:

It may well be a good move to take over ONT and seperate it from LAWA, however given the issues that the Inland Empire has had over the last few years, just how much value airlines will see in the market at this time is still a questionmark.

Even with reduced fees, whether or not the demand can be found will need to be taken on as a risk by airlines.


User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5200 times:

If ONT can attract more carriers, I could see them maybe taking some B6 traffic from LGB, but they serve very different, albeit very close, markets. The obvious WN expansion and maybe some legacy expansion. AS could expand. I don't know what, if any, international expansion there would be. Maybe AC and maybe some leisure and Caribbean routes. I don't envision F9 adding a new airport right now, but in a few months they might add it. But that's it. GA traffic will go up.

User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4285 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5201 times:
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Last time I went through ONT (Oct 13th) our AA MD80 seemed to be the only aircraft on the ground and at the airport. Where would all this proposed business flying be coming from?

User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5178 times:

GA traffic would go up simply because it would be cheaper to fly there, and they have one helluva runway. I think it might be a good move to privatize ONT, but the expansions I talked of are very long term. Growth will be very slow. B6 might add ONT because LGB is maced and ONT will be cheaper than LAX.

User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2981 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5160 times:

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 4):
ONT will be cheaper than LAX.

Airlines fly where the demand is, not necessarily where its the cheapest.

If pax want to fly from LAX, it makes little sense to move flights to ONT. It only makes sense if the Inland Empire demand can be sustained and built upon.


User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5139 times:

Tell that to Ryanair. I only say ONT because they already serve LAX and LGB will be full. It could allow them to cater to a slightly different pax set.

User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5084 times:

There is no way fees will be lower at an independent ONT. LAWA can leverage resources across its system and jointly procure specialized goods and services at a lower cost than solely ONT could. What the City of Ontario fails to realize is that ONT's problem is not its management. It is the poor demographics of its catchment area (which was ground zero of the housing collapse and ensuing economic meltdown) and a general movement back to primary airports by LCC's due to their superior amenities and ground connectivity. Until that changes ONT will continue to lose service....

User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17513 posts, RR: 45
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5051 times:

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 6):
Tell that to Ryanair. I only say ONT because they already serve LAX and LGB will be full. It could allow them to cater to a slightly different pax set.

Problem is no one wants to fly to ONT. People will only fly to LGB at a large discount to LAX.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2981 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5048 times:

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 6):
Tell that to Ryanair. I only say ONT because they already serve LAX and LGB will be full. It could allow them to cater to a slightly different pax set.

Demand is ultimately the driver of that.

In Europe's case, many of these secondary airports actually service other markets also, but a few of the carriers have changed their mind over time to take on the main airports.Once LCC's commenced flying into the main airports and take away and competitive advantage that may have existed by flying from secondary airports, some ultimately move flights in limje with that threat.

ONT has done ok for itself when it was a thriving area, but that is not currently the case. It will take time for that to become a situation where a few airlines see it as a viable option for their model and where they see pax wanting to fly from.

Making it an independent airport is the first step in making the airport take on its own identity, without outside influences. Small steps.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3273 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4878 times:

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 2):
international expansion there would be. Maybe AC and maybe some leisure and Caribbean routes

Think LCC European or Asian carriers that can land a 744, 767 or 330 filled with cheap seats taking people to the LA area, if fees were to drop enough vs LAX. Souther California is a big place, and at least when I lived there people often flew from whatever airport offered the lowest rates, but more people just paid the fare from the closest local airport.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineValorien From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4831 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 10):
Think LCC European or Asian carriers that can land a 744, 767 or 330 filled with cheap seats taking people to the LA area, if fees were to drop enough vs LAX. Souther California is a big place, and at least when I lived there people often flew from whatever airport offered the lowest rates, but more people just paid the fare from the closest local airport.

It's possible. Dutch airline ArkeFly just started flying to Oakland International Airport this year.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3273 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4822 times:

Quoting Valorien (Reply 12):
It's possible. Dutch airline ArkeFly just started flying to Oakland International Airport this year

And MP flew from OAK, World, TransAmerica, plus I think Oasis was looking at HKG-OAK-HKG, But look at OAK now, legacies don't even fly there any more. Same with ONT for the most part, ONT could use an Intl LCC flying 3x weekly.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2092 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4802 times:

Quoting lke2fly (Thread starter):
Since Ontario Int in CA is trying to free its self from LAWA and be independently own by the city of Ontario is it possible that more airlines will try to get a spot in Ontario? I heard that If the city of Ontario takes over the landing fees will be lowered to gain more airlines.

The local municipalities would have to subsidize the landing fees in order to lower them. Although LAWA operates ONT, it cannot divert resources between the airports it operates, although in the past it has twisted the arms of some airlines to serve ONT when they ask for something at LAX. If local municipalities take over, they would still have to service current debt.

The attitude seems to be that LAWA is not doing a good marketing job or something and favoring LAX. However, for the most part, if there is demand, there will be flights. Landing fees at LAX are relatively low due to the lack of capital investment there and ONT cannot undercut fees because of the bonds issued to build the mostly empty terminals. Lowering the fees will not lead to a large number of new flights because those fees are still fairly far down the list of expenses for the airlines. ONT got put into a bit of a death spiral by overbuilding or at least planning to meet projections of the late 90s. SJC has some of the same issues.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5437 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4498 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 11):
Quoting lke2fly (Thread starter):
I would like to see B6 and maybe a international carriers fly out of ONT for several years -- until the end of summer of 2008, pulling service around Labor Day of that year? That's 4 years ago and I see no reason that they would decide anytime soon to return there.
Other than that, the arguments against anything positive happening in the foreseeable future at

I guess A.net was having gas early this morning when I posted my Reply #11 and it therefore makes no sense. Just in case anyone cares, what I was trying to say, in response to the OP's statement, "I would like to see B6... fly out of Ontario", was:

B6 did serve ONT for several years, ending their service around Labor Day of 2008. That was 4 years ago and I see no reason that they should now reconsider serving the airport -- especially now that they have LAX up and running.

bb


User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4490 times:

Maybe the big European and Asian LCCs and charter carriers. My random expansion ideas were only for when that part of California recovers. Years from now.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25435 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4441 times:

Quoting lke2fly (Thread starter):
I would like to see B6 and maybe a international carriers fly out of ONT.

B6 tried ONT and failed.

For international only one that has somewhat hung on is AeroMexico, but even it has large schedule swings.

Quoting lke2fly (Thread starter):
I don't know the process as to how an airline company needs to do to get a spot at a airport.

Super easy. Fill out the entry packet, have things like insurance, and pay the fees.

Quoting lke2fly (Thread starter):
Any ideas what could happen if ONT goes independent.

People forget ONT was independent to start with. LAWA ended up with it when the local cities ended up bankrupting themselves trying to run the field and defaulted turning it over to the FAA.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 4):
GA traffic would go up simply because it would be cheaper to fly there, and they have one helluva runway.

Why would GA traffic bother with ONT? Within 15 miles there are 7 specific GA fields.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 5):
Airlines fly where the demand is, not necessarily where its the cheapest.

   Airlines indeed go where the people and money is.

An airport can be the most expensive airport in the world, but if the demand is there, the airlines will be there also.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 5):
It only makes sense if the Inland Empire demand can be sustained and built upon.

   The Inland Empire is an economic mess.

Its actually one of California's most depressed economic areas. From the housing mess, to generally low per capita income, its not a very healthy market to generate robust discretionary consumer air travel demand.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 7):
There is no way fees will be lower at an independent ONT. LAWA can leverage resources across its system and jointly procure specialized goods and services at a lower cost than solely ONT could.

Yes will be interesting to see how the local cities would manage ONT on their own.

LAWA is indeed able to leverage resources across its airports such as police force, maintenance, back end admin support etc.
As a standalone facility ONT will be 100% full burden on the local agency.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 7):
What the City of Ontario fails to realize is that ONT's problem is not its management. It is the poor demographics of its catchment area (which was ground zero of the housing collapse and ensuing economic meltdown) and a general movement back to primary airports by LCC's due to their superior amenities and ground connectivity. Until that changes ONT will continue to lose service....

   Indeed as mentioned above, the problems at ONT are more economic and demographic then anything.

Also people forget there is an entire industry shift ongoing. Many secondary airports are losing traffic. In LA basin, Burbank and John Wayne also have seen declines. So ONT is not unique in seeing service reductions.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 9):
ONT has done ok for itself when it was a thriving area, but that is not currently the case. It will take time for that to become a situation where a few airlines see it as a viable option for their model and where they see pax wanting to fly from.

   Like we said prior, if the demand was there, airlines would be there also.

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 14):
However, for the most part, if there is demand, there will be flights. Landing fees at LAX are relatively low due to the lack of capital investment there and ONT cannot undercut fees because of the bonds issued to build the mostly empty terminals. Lowering the fees will not lead to a large number of new flights because those fees are still fairly far down the list of expenses for the airlines.

Many might not know in the middle of lots of misinfofmation, but the 2013 fee schedule has ONT being cheaper then LAX, and LAWA has been able to beat down its cost at ONT by almost 20% in recent years even with declining enplanements.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4425 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 13):
And MP flew from OAK, World, TransAmerica, plus I think Oasis was looking at HKG-OAK-HKG, But look at OAK now, legacies don't even fly there any more. Same with ONT for the most part, ONT could use an Intl LCC flying 3x weekly.

Big differences between OAK and ONT.

OAK is 20 miles from downtown SF and has a decent connection to BART.
ONT is 40 miles from downtown LA and even further from Hollywood, etc...(the places tourists want to go) and has no transit connections so its not really a viable alternative to LAX.


User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4405 times:

About the most expensive Airports...welcome to DEN and YYZ. For GA traffic, I meant jets. I also didn't know it used to be private.

User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4300 times:

Quoting Valorien (Reply 12):
It's possible. Dutch airline ArkeFly just started flying to Oakland International Airport this year.

You familiar with the geography of the SF Bay area? OAK airport is actually just as close to downtown San Francisco as SFO. It's also in an area with a wealthy demographic.

However, ONT is located 25-30 miles inland from any LA attractions. It's in the inland empire that's been severely hit by the economy.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4081 times:

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 2):
Maybe AC and maybe some leisure and Caribbean routes.

I think AC tried ONT daily from YYZ with a 319 a few years back, perhaps 06 or 07. When the economy was still (apparently) in good shape, and their conclusion was:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
Problem is no one wants to fly to ONT.

   Correctamundo.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4054 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
Airlines indeed go where the people and money is.

If fares are low enough, passengers will use some very inconvenient airports. Look at Ryanair in Europe for dozens of examples. Some of their airports are as far if not further from the city they purport to serve as ONT is from downtown LAX.


User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4046 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):
If fares are low enough, passengers will use some very inconvenient airports. Look at Ryanair in Europe for dozens of examples. Some of their airports are as far if not further from the city they purport to serve as ONT is from downtown LAX.

Apples and Oranges

Europe has higher population density and a far superior ground transportation network that makes getting to random airports in the middle nowhere much easier.

European Airports are allowed to subsidize service and grant special privileges to carriers to attract service while US Airports have far less latitude due to federal laws.


User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4038 times:

The inland empire needs to recover before anything happens, and air traffic and airlines as a whole do. Otherwise, ONT will be the same old airport, just bringing in less money. As for the ryanair approach, maybe NK will come? In a while, once the area recovers.

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4084 times:

Does anyone have a breakdown of flights per day by operator? I'm assuming AS and WN are the top two carriers there.


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
25 UA787DEN : US Airports can still subsidize a fair amount. DEN is paying something like $20 million for DEN-NRT. But ONT won't be able to afford much like that. I
26 lasairlinerenth : I grew up in the Inland Empire and, although my family didn't travel a lot by air, I can remember the days when ONT was filled with planes from Americ
27 UA787DEN : Its a mini STL/PIT. Carriers no longer in existence, planes no longer with airlines, and airlines and routes no longer serving the airport. Poor ONT.
28 Post contains links Beardown91737 : The simple answer is that under control of Ontario International Airport Authority, expenses of operating ONT will go waaay down and a lower CPE will
29 AirframeAS : Thanks for the breakdown, Beardown. If you want to go to Disney, you go through SNA. Not LAX. I knew a lot if folks who made the mistake of going thro
30 EA CO AS : There are precedents for cost-per-enplanement impacting route decisions, though. For example, AS went from operating SEA-MIA to SEA-FLL solely becaus
31 boilerla : As stated above, operating costs at ONT are not what's keeping airlines away, considering LAX has much higher operating costs and the lions share of f
32 PSA53 : ONT was to get to skiing resorts, the long way to Palm Springs and the old Ontario Motor Speedway,which it was ahead of it's time.I did spot there ma
33 IndianicWorld : Yes, theres some cases, but that must be backed up with enough demand existing at the alternative. If an airline cant see the numbers adding up, it m
34 Post contains images lasairlinerenth : Driving along Haven around the runways was always a thrill -- especially if there was an arrival, or even a departure, in progress!!! And, now that y
35 AAflyguy : I, for one, am very happy to see more travelers choosing PSP. It's both due to airlines reducing schedules @ ONT, making it less of a factor than in y
36 AirframeAS : I don't think you can compare ONT with PSP. PSP is in a totally different market and is nowhere close to ONT, IIRC. Apples and oranges comparison her
37 AAflyguy : It is absolutely NOT an apples to oranges comparison, in that ONT has long served as a major source of leaking air traffic from PSP's market area. As
38 SANFan : Airports can NOT subsidize airline service; they can offer incentives such as reduced rent/leases, waived landing fees and marketing assistance but t
39 Post contains images LAXintl : First lets get some history in here about how ONT is $128mil of which about $70.6mil remains for the new terminals. For the record virtually all of th
40 Post contains images LAXintl : Wow dont know what hapened with the formatting with my post above. Anyhow it is again... First lets get some history in here about how ONT became part
41 Post contains images UA787DEN : The incentives are really just a loophole. It saves the airline money rather than giving them extra money.
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