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Red Wings TU-204 Crashes On Moscow Motorway  
User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1812 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 86023 times:

Breaking news on BBC and NRK (in Norwegian): http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/verden/1.10855720

Saying a passenger aircraft "landed" on a motorway just outside Moscow and is now on fire. No further information as to airline or aircraft type at this stage.

Anyone have anymore information?

Next Flights: LCY-DUB (E70), DUB-LHR (319), LHR-PHL (772), PHL-LAX (321), LAX-HNL (752), HNL-LAX (752), LAX-LHR (388)
254 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineseansasLCY From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 903 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 86115 times:

I just posted on this but you have more info. Its a tu-204 coming into VKO from the Czech Republic

User currently offlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 86000 times:



User currently offlinebigsmile From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 170 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85974 times:


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1996 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85878 times:

So according to the Norwegian news site the plane is on fire, and no one knows yet how many people on board, or casualties.

Let's hope there are no fatalities...


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13197 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85809 times:

BBC is reporting that the plane ran off the runway upon landing.

User currently offlinetrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3257 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85714 times:

This is very tragic. May there be some good news on survivors.


Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently onlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4087 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85768 times:

Airline: Red Wings Airways

Came from: Czech republic

User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85804 times:

I just saw this on RT.

A/C type is a Tupolev-204

The aircraft looks in really bad shape from what i see on the picture...
I hope there will not be too many casualties...



[Edited 2012-12-29 05:20:12]

There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinebigsmile From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 170 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85819 times:

image taken from twitter

Big version: Width: 600 Height: 450 File size: 31kb
Overshot runway, taken from twitter

[Edited 2012-12-29 05:20:02]

User currently offlineEliNYC From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85658 times:

Russian media reports 12 dead - 4 crew, 8 pasenegers. Strange numbers. RIP.

User currently offlineHywel From Malaysia, joined Apr 2008, 813 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85563 times:

Quoting EliNYC (Reply 10):

Russian media reports 12 dead - 4 crew, 8 pasenegers. Strange numbers. RIP.

Still unconfirmed.

"The plane may have been carrying 12 people: 8 passengers and 4 crew."

User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17172 posts, RR: 66
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85520 times:

Wikipedia editors on the ball. Sheesh... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Wings_Airlines#Accidents

"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineEliNYC From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85477 times:

Apologies, other reports say 12 people on board, one dead.

[Edited 2012-12-29 05:24:27]

User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1996 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85415 times:

I don't want to be the pesimistic guy here, but looking at the pictures, the first section of fuselage ( + cockpit ) is just absolutely destroyed...I think, sadly, there is no chance of "Zero Fatalities" in this crash...

R.I.P. to the victims and prayers for their families and friends...


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineby738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2431 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85389 times:

Out of 12 people onboard the crash-landed plane 3 people in critical condition, 2 others severely injured

User currently onlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4087 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85384 times:

Russian State television reports that the aircraft was already on fire on approach to land ...

Article in Norwegian:


User currently offlineHywel From Malaysia, joined Apr 2008, 813 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85346 times:

In the last 2 months, Red Wings have had 2 other runway excursions in the Tupolev 204...   


User currently offlineKFlyer From Sri Lanka, joined Mar 2007, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85324 times:

Appears to be RedWings RA-64047. WZ has 9 of the type in fleet. RIP to all involved.
P.S: Per Flightradar24, it has been on WZ9268 from Czech Republic.

[Edited 2012-12-29 05:32:18]

The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
User currently offlineby738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2431 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85001 times:

Sorry for all those injured. Without knowing the details though before hand, it was all too predictable. I was predicting either a Russian airliner operating mid winter or a low cost Indonesian/Indian poor weather short haul.

User currently onlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4087 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85025 times:

Quoting by738 (Reply 20):
Without knowing the details though before hand, it was all too predictable. I was predicting either a Russian airliner operating mid winter or a low cost Indonesian/Indian poor weather short haul.

Why ?

User currently offlinejoekuboj From Serbia, joined Feb 2004, 164 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85061 times:

Replay on Flightradar24: http://fr24.com/2012-12-29/10:12/RWZ9268

It's not a bug, it's a feature.
User currently offlinemika From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 2881 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 84992 times:

Here's hoping for the best possible outcome...

User currently offlineby738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2431 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85382 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 21):
Why ?

Look through the frequency of aircraft type and location of the most serious civil aviation accidents of the past 10 years.

User currently onlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4087 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 85421 times:

If the aircraft was on fire already on approach, what could that be ? Engine failure ?

Quoting by738 (Reply 27):
Look through the frequency of aircraft type and location of the most serious civil aviation accidents of the past 10 years.

There has only been 1 accident involving this type of aircraft before and that was without fatalities. So a pretty safe russian aircraft. The type was introduced in 1994.

[Edited 2012-12-29 06:29:33 by SA7700]

25 Gonzalo : I was thinking more in a ferry or test flight, 4 crew for 8 passengers on board a twin jet of that capacity sounds crazy... G.[Edited 2012-12-29 06:28
26 by738 : I meant Russian operated aircraft in general, and given there are so few 204s specifically in operation, to have one accident already is a pretty hig
27 anfromme : To be honest, you hear with every other airplane incident that someone saw the plane, one or more of its engines, its wing, etc. on fire. Mostly turn
28 LH648 : 2 confirmed dead. RIP.
29 LH648 : Police representative live on Russian news just told that 3 people are dead. No pax onboard. Incoming from Pardubice, Czech Republic (PED)[Edited 2012
30 JohnKrist : Not really, overruns are rare altogether, but several of them have been caused by engine failures, or engine related issues like failing thrust rever
31 Post contains links and images aloges : and hopefully, the death toll will not increase This COULD be the approximate site of the crash, reconstructed from the approach path on flightradar2
32 Gonzalo : Reuters says now 11 crew and no pax on board... G.
33 LH648 : Officially confirmed 2 dead, 5 injured, 3 of them in very bad condition. Hospital representative told that persons passed away are in pilot's uniform.
34 B747forever : Looking at the picture in reply 9 I am not surprised that both pilots died in the crash. The whole nose section is disintegrated. May they rest in pe
35 Post contains links Mortyman : Video of the crash site and aircraft here: http://www.dagbladet.no/2012/12/29/nyheter/utenriks/flykrasj/25014856/ Video to the right in the article[Ed
36 Post contains links and images okjet : Here is a picture of the aircraft departing from PED today. View Large View MediumPhoto © Karel Bohac[Edited 2012-12-29 23:18:55 by SA7700]
37 Gonzalo : I thought the same at first, but is not "disintegrated". Look at the end of the RT video linked by Mortyman in the previous reply, and you will see t
38 Cassi : Apparently this is the first fatal accident involving a TU-204. Red Wings is the largest operator of the type even after the loss of this aircraft (7)
39 SCQ83 : RIP. It is 99% the motorway in the pics. At least it seems like they haven't crashed against any car... in the pictures it looks like the plane litera
40 Post contains images brilondon : The reason for the few passengers is that according to this article: December 29, 2012 14:23 | Tupolev 204 crashed Pardubice to Moscow Vnukovo to Tupo
41 AirGabon : I thought that an Aviastar TU-204 already crashed last year while landing at DME, also without passengers (ferry flight from Egypt I guess)?
42 RussianJet : Oh. My. God. BBC says 8 pax and 4 crew - is that likely? At least the low count on board has resulted in relatively few casualties, but still a horrif
43 Post contains links LXa332 : RT says 4 dead now. As reported, both pilots are dead. The plane took tourists to PED and was returning without pax. Looks like there may have been a
44 kaitak : Seems very unlikely; the airport would not be able to operate without functioning emergency vehicles. Can't help wondering what the Russian transport
45 LXa332 : Agreed. Surely the fire would have burned more than only the right wing in 50 minutes, no?
46 irshava : Very typical explanation. I don't believe it at all. What kind of airport doesn't have at least one operating safety vehicle... if the airport was on
47 TupolevTu154 : It must have been going very, very fast to get that far off the end of the runway, through what looks like a couple of walls and break into pieces lik
48 anfromme : I'm aware of that, but I understood "engine failure" in the sense of "engine(s) completely non-operational". And those are rare to cause overruns. Ov
49 ltbewr : Could this been a failed 'go around' ? Perhaps the pilots misjudged their landing point and touched down too far down? What was the weather and visabi
50 Post contains links anfromme : Correct, but nobody was killed in that crash. http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20100322-1 Other have already commented on the fact t
51 Post contains images flyPBA : from NBC
52 ushermittwoch : Looks lime people on the highway got lucky. Very lucky.
53 B747forever : Yeah, I see now. But still, doesnt make it much more survivable. Eerie to look at that picture, knowing that the plane crashed only a few hours after
54 UA787DEN : 8 total people on board, I'm pretty sure all crew. At least 4 dead and the others very badly injured. Some reports are saying this was the second land
55 tp1040 : From ASN... It had been snowing prior to the accident and there was a significant cross wind with gusts up to 29 knots. Runway 24 was closed since 19
56 Post contains images PlymSpotter : Very sad news, RIP to those who didn't make it. The path along which the aircraft careered after leaving the runway would have made what was happening
57 soyuz : Czech media also reporting that the aircraft was attempting to land a second time. My sencerest condolances to the families of the deceased.
58 Aesma : RIP to the victims. What does a "forced landing" mean ?
59 USAirways757 : Wow, RIP to those who perished and my condolences to the families.
60 BEG2IAH : I would save these types of assessments for some other occasion as people died in this accident and they deserve some respect. Also, if you are so go
61 Post contains links and images flyingbird : You can see clearly on Flightradar24 that there was only one landing attempt. http://www.flightradar24.com/2012-12-29/12:24/RWZ9268
62 Post contains links KarelXWB : Someone captured the crash from the inside of his car: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hEQdW6yS5o4
63 rfields5421 : I can see why the aircraft broke into large pieces. The roadway has to be 20-30 feet or so below the airport boundary area. Falling at fairly low spee
64 Semaex : Thank you for this video. Surviving such an impact seems incredibly unlikely, but I'm glad news report that most did. My greatest condolescence to th
65 padster : That is chilling ! ... the car occupants were very very lucky there !!
66 Skydrol : Dang, with all of the Russian car accident / road rage videos on YouTube uploaded from so many Russian drivers with dash cameras, but who would expec
67 rfields5421 : Heck of a video - and a lucky driver/ passengers.
68 Viscount724 : US FAA definitions: Forced landing -- An immediate landing, on or off an airport, necessitated by the inability to continue further flight. A typical
69 usxguy : I'm shocked by the video posted by Mortyman - with the rescuers opening the door to the plane - anyone notice the slide did not inflate? I thought mos
70 by738 : What other type of occasion would you suggest ? I don't you see you in your authority questioning any of the other posters speculation. If youre sugg
71 horstroad : the slides are not intended to inflate when the door is opened from outside, because of
72 bogoss : I thought it was a crash from the forced landing on the motorway from the title of this thread, guess I went too far... My sincere condolences to the
73 usxguy : Oh that's interesting.. In the States - some airlines anyway - ground staff opens and closes the door, and I at least am aware that on Boeings and the
74 ThomasCook : I can't speak for this aircraft type in particular but generally, if an aircraft door is opened from the outside in the 'Armed' mode, it will automat
75 Post contains links sulley : Here's a decent video (in Russian) from Vremya (Channel One - Russia) News: http://www.1tv.ru/news/social/223201
76 FI642 : The video is most disturbing.
77 Post contains links Mortyman : According to the Russian newspaper Komsomolskaya Pravda the Tupolev factory was informed about possible problems with the brakes on this type of aircr
78 scbriml : It's clear from that video that the plane was still travelling at considerable speed when it hit the road embankment.
79 BEG2IAH : It's one thing to post the video of the actual event vs. saying "told you so" as if you just knew yet another Russian/Indian/Indonesian airline/aircr
80 PROSA : For legal reasons a high percentage of Russian vehicles are equipped with dashcams. As a result, it's perhaps not so surprising that a video of this s
81 burnsie28 : RIP to those who died. But if I am reading this correctly, this relatively "modern" aircraft still has a Flight Engineer?
82 rampkontroler : A terrible tragedy lessened only slightly by the fact that it wasn't full of passengers. My heart goes out to all affected by this, and I hope the inv
83 Post contains images TrnsWrld : Holy crap that video is kind of chilling to watch. That nose landing gear tire nailed that one car and tossed it into the guard rail. What a horrible
84 Post contains links comair25 : From the top 5 of the last 24 hours. Also a little bit creepy somebody actually caught her departing on her way to Moscow http://www.airliners.net/pho
85 capri : So, from channel 1 video, he landed but couldn't stop and run off to motorway there is a pic already of aircraft before leaving czech Republic edited
86 D L X : Damn. That driver runs into a row of seats! Amazing video. How fortunate this was an empty flight.
87 F9animal : Wow! The dash cam video is incredible! The tire knocking that car into the sidewall, and the car with the dash cam running over the seats! From what I
88 tp1040 : Amazing that it was going that fast well over 2 miles/3km from the runway threshold. More will come out in the investigation.
89 F9animal : I am learning new things everyday. So, this has a three man cockpit crew? Do all of the 204's have a three man crew? I could have sworn the plane was
90 JoeCanuck : I measure it at about 300m.
91 Post contains links teneriffe77 : The pic of the plane taking off on it's fatal flight reminds me of this pic from 1967 involving a TWA DC9-10 that collided w/ a Beechcraft 55 over Ohi
92 tp1040 : The landing one.
93 Post contains links Dizzy777 : it has a Flightcrew of two, although original Aeroflot requirement specified a flight engineer. further info: http://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data/
94 F9animal : Weird! I just got done looking at pictures of the flight deck on Red Wings Airlines 204, and it showed a total of 3 flight crew members. And it says
95 Dizzy777 : they could be using some former Aeroflot aircraft and had new ones delivered in the same config for commonality purposes, or there may just be a few.
96 rfields5421 : I might be wrong, but I'd put the speed closer to 60 than 120. It was slow enough to descend quickly down the steep embankment and strike the rising
97 ThomasCook : I can't speak for this carrier but at my airline, I we are positioning an aircraft, all crew must be at their designated work position (door) for tak
98 RIXrat : The following is a fragment from an Associated Press, Moscow datelined story. It quotes a Russian official as saying "initial indications" indicate pi
99 PROSA : After striking a car, the nose wheel rolls down the highway for what must be a considerable distance.
100 huxrules : It was going very fast in that video. I wonder if it was trying to do a go around after a brake malfunction.
101 Bralo20 : Cleanup starts quick in Russia. I've been to incidents (mostly fatal car crashes but also the Kalitta overrun in BRU) as a fire / police photographer
102 spacecadet : I'd wager you are wrong - I wouldn't try to peg a specific speed but I'd be very surprised if that plane is not traveling faster than 60mph in the vi
103 Starlionblue : Welcome to Russian union rules. Many airliners had to have a flight engineer AND a navigator until recently. Basically they take a two man design and
104 Post contains links and images L410Turbolet : Pictures of the doomed aircraft, taken just before its departure from PED: http://zkracovatko.cz/3SZYLr http://zkracovatko.cz/aoKuL9 arrival to PED ye
105 Post contains links F9animal : Hang on a second!!! The picture you posted which I will copy and paste below. What is that coming from the center of the main gears? It looks like a f
106 mesaflyguy : I find it amazing that this particular aircraft had been videotaped, photographed, and caught on a dash cam when it crashed! This is, what seems to me
107 AirPacific747 : It seems to be normal practice in Russia to place a camera on your car. Maybe due to insurance policies?
108 Post contains links and images BEG2IAH : Not sure. Both "streaks" look too symetric to be leaks of some sort. See how they start with wide cylindric shape, then there is a small bump half wa
109 spacecadet : 64049. This plane was 64047. I wouldn't put too much stock in the numbers being so close together; only 62 of these planes exist in total, and I'd gu
110 mandala499 : It is somewhere in between. 1. it maintained pitch as it leapt onto the embankment. 2. The trajectory was increasingly down (after taking to account
111 Post contains links L410Turbolet : The explanation is actually quite prosaic: PED is a sleepy, provincial airport with mixed military/civilian ops. Passenger traffic during the winter
112 AirlineCritic : They had a long runway, and the plane still did not decelerate much. And hundreds of meters of field to slow down some more. Maybe they had lost both
113 migair54 : Can it be a ground contact for static electricity discharge?? like the ones are usually in the wings and tail?? Apparently one of the previous overru
114 Post contains links AirlineCritic : Interesting. I had a look at the video again. I wanted to see if there's a way to measure the speed. First, I attempted to measure the speed of the t
115 Post contains links and images aloges : exactly my thoughts You can see the same kind of ground strap on this Tu-154: View Large View MediumPhoto © Arkadiy Kataev
116 Northstar80 : Regarding the video, I am shocked to see the triple seats flying and then falling in the middle of the highway. I remember seeing somewhere that the s
117 Post contains links garpd : More footage, not of the crash but immediate aftermath: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=13e_1356848408
118 Post contains links and images Hywel : Two more photos have emerged of the aircraft just before touchdown at VKO - literally 20-30 seconds before it overran the runway Link 1 Link 2[Edited
119 David L : And one of the big questions is: where (and how) did it touch down? Hopefully it won't be long before that information comes to light. True, but if t
120 Post contains links AirlineCritic : In the second photo the aircraft appears to be pretty high still, maybe at 100 feet. And this is at a place that looks like a normal section of the r
121 B747forever : Wow. Is there any other crash that has been so well documented? You have photos of the aircraft at the origin airport, video of it crashing and photo
122 horstroad : I'd say it's about 30-50ft and the photo shows the first touchdown zone marker between the piano keys and the aiming point (photo was taken from nort
123 ushermittwoch : No flames, thus one can once again dismiss most eye witness accounts as false.
124 Post contains links Bralo20 : Belgian media are reporting that the incident was probably caused by a failing brake system and that the pilots tried everything to slow the plane dow
125 migair54 : As I previously said, that was the cause of runway overrun in OVB not long ago, so i´m sure it will be check carefully, it was Ra-64049 in that occa
126 anfromme : Some German media are reporting the same thing, but I'd take such early reports of definite causes with more than a grain of salt, to be honest, as t
127 rfields5421 : You are correct, but this aircraft fuselage broke cleanly in the passenger compartment area - so the floor to which the seats were attached came apar
128 rj777 : Looking at that 2nd photo of the approach/landing, it looked to me like he was coming in a little high.
129 womenbeshoppin : Give me a break. You are familiar with landing an aircraft at this particular moscow airport?
130 PROSA : It looks like the highway is still open in the opposite direction and you even can see a car go by in the lanes where the debris lies.
131 Post contains links zanl188 : AvHerald is reporting it as well.... http://avherald.com/h?article=45ad34b5&opt=1 Sounds like the earlier overrun may have been due to lack of lu
132 Gonzalo : Ok, this seems probably one of the most extensively documented plane crashes ( except maybe for the ones made on purpose in the desert ) with many pic
133 Post contains links spacecadet : It has already come to light: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...nding/story-fn3dxix6-1226545506612 I don't vouch for the accuracy of the conclus
134 tp1040 : From the first link above. "He [Lebedev-Red Wings owner] also suggested that traffic controllers' initial refusal to authorise landing - requiring the
135 Post contains links manny : Here is Youtube footage of Moscow plane crash: http://youtu.be/In607kR4HpQ
136 spacecadet : I've seen radar tracks that certainly suggest it has been. I think one was posted in this thread. He's the owner of the airline, though, not an inves
137 shufflemoomin : Wait, in that video, am I seeing things or did the car in front take full brunt of an aircraft wheel into the side of the vehicle and just keep drivi
138 F9animal : The aircraft tire hit the top of that building before hitting the car. I suspect that would have slowed the speed down quite a bit. I suspect it was
139 F9animal : Sadly, a 5th crewmember has died. They have released pics of those who died on Red Wings Twitter and facebook pages.
140 PHX787 : I read a report in the paper this morning that says the EU may ban flights on a TU-204 until this breaks issue is worked out. I ran a search on Google
141 affirmative : Considering the plane was empty and wind was not too bad the approach speed must have been slightly lower than normal. Looking at the pictures that ar
142 Post contains links and images JoeCanuck : Taking the pics from the links, and using Google translate to read the text, (as well as expected), they compare the height of the 204 to a tu134 at
143 bueb0g : No it doesn't. That last picture you showed there is taken from the threshold, basically - those are the first piano keys in the frame. They landed i
144 Post contains links Viscount724 : A couple of recent items on "dashcams" in Russia. http://www.rferl.org/content/dash-ca...nd-scams-car-crashes/24780355.html http://www.animalnewyork.
145 Post contains images rfields5421 : We were speaking about the speed of the aircraft at the time of the final impact with the uphill embankment on the edge of the roadway. The aircraft
146 F9animal : Lucky for that car that the wheel hit the top of that structure first! I suspect that slowed the tire quite a bit!
147 Post contains links JoeCanuck : Here is a link to a video of a 204, (perhaps the same one), landing in summer at the airport. If you look at the 48 second point, you will see the pl
148 a380heavy : Firstly let me pass on my sincere condolences to the families of those who perished in this tragic accident. It's safe to day that aircraft accidents
149 Post contains links and images flood : Interesting comparison, thanks.
150 Post contains links and images torontofly : Hi everyone! This is my first post on this forum, although I follow it for several years. I just want to contribute to the discussion that helps ident
151 Starlionblue : Brake malfunction on dual (I guess) independent systems with no malfunction indications to the crew? I'm not saying it didn't happen, but if it did wo
152 torontofly : Thanks a lot! To me, it looks like that thrust reversers and ground spoilers were deployed approximately at the middle of RWY length. The remaining d
153 tp1040 : Comparing other photos of other flights to this one can make for a long day. Camera angles, lens, position, height can trick the eye. In the end, it d
154 horstroad : the aircraft is about 50ft above the first landing zone marker before the aiming point. with a 3° glide path and considering the flare, the aircraft
155 awthompson : Despite what some officials have allegedly stated, it does appear (in my opinion - which I am entitled to hold and express) that this accident aircraf
156 Post contains images Cactus105 : I REALLY hate to speculate, but that was my first thought upon seeing the photo. Only A handful of crew on board would make for a light airplane thou
157 btblue : I'm looking at the pictures and there seems to be a fair amount of blurring of planes in the background (compared to the picture of the TU134)... I'm
158 spacecadet : Darker day (slower shutter speed), smaller sensor, different lens, who knows. You can't judge anything by comparing pictures taken in uncontrolled co
159 F9animal : The dash cam video tells me that the plane was going waaaay too fast, even if it touched down halfway down the runway. Its just such a violent impact.
160 Post contains links and images AirlineCritic : Perhaps a slightly long/fast landing, followed by the crew's decision to go around, but with something going wrong? Flaps, reversers, power settings,
161 JoeCanuck : Thanks to the RussianPlanes photographers for their pics and links. As with most accidents, it's a chain of events which lead to the accident itself,
162 KC135Hydraulics : Is there a video somewhere in this thread of the entire landing run? I saw the dash cam video... absolutely chilling. It's hard to grasp that people w
163 F9animal : No, nothing showing the entire landing. But... With as many cameras that airports have nowadays, I would not be surprised in coming days or weeks tha
164 awthompson : With only flight deck and cabin crew on board, hence few duties for cabin crew, I will be interested to find out how many persons were on the flight d
165 Post contains links smws : Information trickling in. It wasn't an issue with the runway, at least: http://en.ria.ru/russia/20121231/178..._Runway_Not_a_Factor_in_Fatal.html
166 Post contains links Captainmeeerkat : http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45b4b3cb&opt=0 From the AvHerald: "On Dec 31st 2012 Rosaviatsia released a modification to aircraft operations m
167 spacecadet : Seems plausible... it's not uncommon for early procedural changes to be made during investigations if there's a clear and present problem. Similar re
168 zanl188 : More likely a result of the Dec 20th overrun.
169 Post contains images F9animal : Isnt that a long procedure to follow? I mean, by the time the crew determines a failure of thrust reverse, could time be a critical factor? What do yo
170 ajd1992 : 6000 feet of runway is a lot of runway - large aircraft similar in size to the TU-204 fly out of airports like that all the time. I doubt it was a pr
171 CX Flyboy : Actually 6000ft is not that much runway for a plane flying the speeds of a Tu-204 on finals. Float a little bit in the flare and you will very quickl
172 cbphoto : Does anyone know how the reverser on these engines work? Could it be an issue with the reversing mechanism where it failed and the engine spooled up,
173 tp1040 : The runway is stated at 10,039 feet. The total runway with over run etc., is 2 miles long. 6000 ft would be the middle of the runway. It has been sta
174 horstroad : as far as I know reverse thrust isn't considered in minimum runway length calculations. so even without T/R the plane should be able to stop on the ru
175 Post contains images mandala499 : Lower light levels, slower camera shutter speed, on a moving object... result... either: 1. Blurred object of focus and sharp background; or 2. Sharp
176 spacecadet : I did as you suggested and came up with an approximate speed of the car of 70.9mph. I counted 26 lane markers in exactly 10 seconds, then counted off
177 mesaflyguy : Going back to my post about the amount of times this aircraft was photgraphed and/or videotaped on its last flight, if you go to wikipedia and search
178 PW100 : At first sight, this did not seem to be a split thurst reverse problem. If only one enigne would go into thrust reverse, it would be hard to keep the
179 Captainmeeerkat : What if the engine(s) was/were indicating idle or T/R deployed but the engine(s) was/were giving forward thrust? Is such a thing possible? How noticea
180 spacecadet : Well it would be difficult, if not impossible to calculate that precisely if the car is not at a constant speed, because by nature any measurement yo
181 Post contains links CF-CPI : A relatively recent update: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...heck-thrust-reverse-status-380606/ It's not clear if this means that they found evi
182 horstroad : isn't it impossible to increase reverse thrust if the reverser is unlocked but not fully deployed?
183 Post contains links JoeCanuck : I saw a MAYDAY broadcast about a 320 accident at GRU where one reverser was inop and a procedural mixup had one engine on full and another on full rev
184 Post contains links flood : DavidKM of flightglobal tweeted a link to a clip purportedly from the aircraft's prior landing at Pardubice: http://youtu.be/GgOIS3oknRM The comment a
185 s5daw : What happened here? Seems like a hard landing... the overhead panels even opened due to the G forces or so it seems!? Also the speed seems quite high
186 flood : I have no idea if it's "just" a hard landing, but it's either a strange coincidence or another piece of the puzzle - as it certainly isn't normal. Th
187 F9animal : I dont think the mains actually touched until the bang. Another words, he kinda floated 5 to 10 feet above the runway, and came down hard. Anyone noti
188 Post contains images a380heavy : I think the mains did touch down before the louder bang because you hear the passenger making an 'ufff' sound as though that represented a hard enough
189 shufflemoomin : I would agree with the comments on the landing speed. That does seem like an incredibly fast landing and it just has that feeling that it's not a very
190 akelley728 : Are there any more updates on this?
191 Post contains images s5daw : No hard facts to my knowledge. Not 787 related, so who cares... or something I read on pprune that there is supposed to be a CCTV footage of the whole
192 F9animal : I have been hoping to hear something by now. Any news on how the survivors are doing? All of a sudden, news has not said anything about this accident.
193 CF-CPI : I would gather the TU-204 has visual clues when the reversers are deployed, much as any other type does. Brakes and/or reversers are still considered
194 ltbewr : There is an investigation in progress and only in it's very early stages. If there were any airport based video, even by private individuals, it was
195 gonzalo : On Jan 13th 2013 Rosaviatsia enhanced the airworthiness directive released on Dec 31st 2012 demanding operators to check their TU-204 aircraft for pr
196 s5daw : Some "leaked information" from pprune: A/c was totaly in order. But... 1) +20 km/h more than MAX laning speed allowed 2) Strong crosswind (possible mo
197 CF-CPI : Is this the result of high cross winds, or some other aspect of the landing (coming on too hard and bouncing, etc)? This may have been mentioned some
198 CF-CPI : I may have just answered my own question from my previous post: then the maximum allowed is really closer to 200 km/hr. Speaking of the nervous atmos
199 tu204 : They only managed to lose 50km/h on a 3k runway...well, for anyone here who has any hours behind the controls...you know what they should have done wh
200 Post contains images F9animal : Wow! Kinda confused with what is being said here. Can someone break it down to a more understandable reading? Not criticizing at all, I just dont unde
201 CF-CPI : If the leaked info presented by s5daw is accurate, it seems that they were coming in too fast, had some issue making simultaneous, reliable contact w
202 prebennorholm : I agree with everything which CF-CPI wrote in reply #201. I will just add... It seems they were "dancing" on alternating left and right MLG. They nee
203 F9animal : Thanks guys. Makes total sense now. Am I correct by saying they should have full throttled and attempted to takeoff? I would imagine the outcome would
204 F9animal : One other thing. Cant spoilers be manually deployed by crew?
205 spacecadet : *If* you believe these leaks (and it seems not everyone does), it seems there was a modification made to the Tu-204 in which the reversers won't depl
206 Gonzalo : You are closing the case a little too early IMO... Rosaviatsia asked this for a reason : G.
207 bueb0g : Because they're investigating it. I think the speed quoted there is actually the overrun threshold, not the landing threshold; 220 kmh is about 118 k
208 Post contains links transaeroyyz : http://avherald.com/h?article=45b4b3cb&opt=0 Some new info today, they were determined to get revesers engaged.
209 s5daw : This is so sad... they had the option of going around, but were so focused on stopping that they've missed it. I wonder if they could take off if the
210 Post contains links RubberJungle : Flightglobal says the rough ground and deceleration during the overrun finally resulted in the landing gear compressing and unlocking the reversers. h
211 s5daw : I'll paste this from another forum here: Chairman of the Technical Commission of Inquiry into the accident with the aircraft Tu-204 RA-64047 Airline
212 redzeppelin : Wow. A stark reminder of how many systems are working together to stop a landing airplane. After reading that, I wonder how much did the 22 knot cross
213 s5daw : They could deploy the spoilers manually. Gear contact is only needed for auto spoiler deploy. This, plus they were light, since there were no passeng
214 bueb0g : Pilots are trained not to go around after the reverses are engaged. A GA was not an option in their minds, and that wasn't their fault. I don't think
215 usxguy : But do we know in the TU 204 that you can enable the ground spoilers manually? I have a gut feeling this is a bad case of the computer not allowing th
216 spacecadet : It's the captain's fault but there is definitely a design issue there, as I suspected might be the case. I am not sure how it works in other airplane
217 CF-CPI : Now that some of the facts are falling into place, can we ask if other types, the 757, 737NG or A320 family, would have had the same outcome? I'm not
218 prebennorholm : You don't need to single out 757, 737 and 320. In principle it could be any airliner. There are slight differences how the systems work, but the crew
219 spacecadet : The problem is you're not only not getting positive deceleration, you're getting positive (and uncommanded) *acceleration*, with reverser deployment
220 anfromme : Personally, I think that's a textbook scenario for going with this rule: Particularly given that they were in fact accelerating.
221 s5daw : As I'm not a pilot I can only discuss this in layman's terms, but since the flight engineer reported the reverses did not deploy... So when the rever
222 bueb0g : It's true, and perhaps had they been more prepared, a GA would have been possible. But as I said, it's standard training not to go around after the r
223 mandala499 : No once reversers have been selected you do not go-around, for the same reason as this not deploying, it could deploy when you go around which would
224 s5daw : Just to make things clear, not my translations, copied from another forum...[Edited 2013-01-25 09:20:35] I think there was... something about setting
225 rfields5421 : It it just me or does this scenario of reverse thrust not working and forward thrust being applied sound a lot like TAM Flight 3054? Reverse thrust no
226 spacecadet : Which might only add to the confusion. Reverse thrust commanded, reversers not deployed, uncommanded forward thrust. If you're in a calm room and hav
227 Post contains links s5daw : The root cause seems to be too fast & too long... reversers did not deploy because they were basically flying the whole time. Kind of similar to
228 bueb0g : There was, but it was after the accident. Not really, because they had plenty of runway left on which to stop. The root cause was deploying reversers
229 YVRLTN : Is this unique to the TU-204? I thought it was standard on Airbus and Boeing aircraft too and why in some conditions pilots like to really bump the a
230 spacecadet : There was a gust of crosswind at touchdown that kept one MLG off the ground, which led to the spoilers and reversers not deploying and braking being
231 CF-CPI : Can we revisit something that was said early on - and that is the question of whether recorded cross winds were too high to permit safe landings at t
232 rfields5421 : The landing speeds were not high. They were within normal parameters. Winds gusting to 22 kts would not be outside the normal operational range of a
233 CF-CPI : I was talking to an Alaska airlines captain some time back - he joked that passengers complained about his hard landings. Of course, the idea behind
234 Pugman211 : I have a question, and i'd just like to state im not a pilot or engineer or anything like that. This aircraft touched down, albeit long and light appa
235 F9animal : What a tragedy. Those pilots were probably freaking out in the last seconds. I could not imagine looking out the cockpit windows to see the end of the
236 s5daw : It this CVR leak is correct, PNF disagreed with you:
237 bueb0g : It's relatively pointless to even hypothesise about this. Firstly, a crew in this situation is not going to have enough time to decide to do somethin
238 Revelation : The AvHerald link above says the new AD requests the maintainers verify that the thrust lever locks prevent application of reverse thrust without the
239 spacecadet : It doesn't seem like there was a firm/informed answer in this thread about whether spoilers could have been manually deployed in this situation, whic
240 rfields5421 : That is why reversers are not used to calculate the landing speed and safe stopping distance. The method to deal with gusting type winds like these i
241 aotearoa : Excuse me if this has been mentioned earlier on the thread. The basic design philosophy of reverse thrust systems is that no more than idle thrust can
242 F9animal : Are airplanes becoming too automatic anymore? I find it shocking that a crew cant override computers and basic controls. I cant understand why a syste
243 bueb0g : A different topic for a different discussion. But your uncle's views sound like typical "classic" pilot hyperbole with a sliver of truth - that truth
244 Revelation : As per the post-AD crash I described earlier: One could draw the conclusion that the system you mention has issues.
245 Post contains links s5daw : Yes, there is: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...heck-thrust-reverse-status-380606/
246 aotearoa : As far as I'm aware, both Boeing and Airbus frames will not allow physical movement out of the reverse idle position (the position first selected from
247 Post contains links s5daw : Interesting video of TU154 with reversers deployed before touchdown http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq5HLtdGeqE
248 AirlineCritic : Very disturbing.
249 Post contains links BEG2IAH : Not disturbing, totally normal. I suggest this thread: Thrust Reversers Before Touchdown? (by DocLightning Jul 7 2008 in Tech Ops)
250 N766UA : That's SOP for that airplane, IIRC.
251 gatorman96 : Besides that, what does this have to do with the accident in question?
252 BEG2IAH : Maybe poster wanted to "illustrate" that Russians have no idea how to use thrust reversers. No idea...
253 s5daw : The question was if all modern planes require wheels on the ground the deploy reversers...
254 bueb0g : No, it's SOP for that a/c. Tu-154 is hardly modern, and the effects of its reversers can hardly be compared to modern jets like the Tu-204. The 154 h
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