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Rusline EMB 120 Takeoff With Snow Covered Wings  
User currently offlineapruzesse13 From Ukraine, joined Dec 2012, 33 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 17311 times:

Again another take-off in Russia of an aircraft covered of snow with no deicing treatment. This time the airline concerned is Rusline, a regional operator of CRJ 200 and EMB 120.

It is high time Russian CAA takes strong actions against such carriers, or the list of tragic accidents in this country will only grow!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DtscU0cQA8E#!

And in Russian only but with nice pics...
http://www.airlines-inform.ru/reviews/nicknick-507.html

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12397 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 16998 times:
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Personally, I don't think this looks as bad as you're suggesting. The plane in question only has the lightest dusting of snow on the wing and the area behind the engine has been cleared by the prop-wash. As long as the flight crew are happy there's no ice beneath the snow, I don't think there's any requirement to clear the snow.


Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 16879 times:

I remember getting out and sweeping snow off the wings of our EC-121 Connies at Atsugi, with hand brooms. There was always a bit of light snow on the wings when we lined up to take off. It quickly blew off the wings as we built speed.

The key we were told to watch for, and the flight engineer always inspected, was to see if there was any ice under the snow.

I've seen near the same thing flying out of Cheyenne, Wyoming with a Beech 99 in the early 90s. The pilot of the flight explained that he had checked the wings. There was no ice on the wings and the snow would be blown off before the aircraft became airborne.

Light snow with no ice is not a problem or risk for takeoff, provided the aircraft is checked to ensure there is no ice under the snow.


User currently offlineDazed767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5490 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 16809 times:

Looks like a light dusting and as stated above as long as the control surfaces are contaminate free should be ok. If it were still snowing and precipitation was building up on the wings then it would need de-icing.

[Edited 2012-12-31 08:35:32]

User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4137 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 16723 times:

It seems like a light dusting of snow which doesn't appear to be a problem. i have flown with a light dusting of snow on the wings before and it obviously doesn't pose a concern.

[Edited 2012-12-31 08:48:27]


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineapruzesse13 From Ukraine, joined Dec 2012, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 16611 times:

As pax is stating in his trip review (in Russian), no deicing treatment done despite aircraft coming out of overnight prolonged parking/storage

User currently offlinedurangomac From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 16449 times:

I the US, any frozen contamination requires deicing, doesn't matter if it will be blown off during the takeoff.

User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1551 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 16182 times:

Quoting durangomac (Reply 6):
I the US, any frozen contamination requires deicing, doesn't matter if it will be blown off during the takeoff.

Not exactly true. Light snow that will be blown off during the take off role, is actually allowed by some operators. It is at the PIC prerogative as to the assurance of whether it will blow off or not. Our company allows it, and I have been up front on a Major airline where it was briefed that the light snow on the wings will be blown off prior to departure. Their is also consideration given as to whether it is currently snowing at the time of departure or if it was a previous snow fall.

If you have a cold wing, with cold temperatures, and a light, fluffy snow, most likely the snow will not stick to the wing.

Airlines are also allowed to take off with certain frost attached to the fuselage of the aircraft, without needing to be de-iced!



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 16074 times:

Quoting apruzesse13 (Thread starter):
It is high time Russian CAA takes strong actions against such carriers, or the list of tragic accidents in this country will only grow!!

The video is dated a week ago...how cold was it at this airport? If it was very very cold (not unlikely in Russia at this time of year) they may have been far safer doing it this way. If the snow is unattached (and verified as such by the flight crew), and there is no ice, then they're in better shape having the snow just blow off than contaminating the whole airframe with deice fluid when it's that cold out.

Before we assume the crew took an unacceptable risk, consider that they may have taken the safer path. Very cold weather operations are a unique beast.

Tom.


User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3006 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 16057 times:

I'm not sure what the big deal here is.

As long as pilots confirm that ice is not present on the wings, the light snow is not a factor on takeoff. It gets blown off. I've flown in and out of SLC in the winter over 70 times and often times a light layer of snow was present on the wings. We didn't always get de-iced. Everything kept flying right off either during the take-off run or once airborn.

Aeroflot777


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4137 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15265 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 8):

The video is dated a week ago...how cold was it at this airport? If it was very very cold (not unlikely in Russia at this time of year) they may have been far safer doing it this way. If the snow is unattached (and verified as such by the flight crew), and there is no ice, then they're in better shape having the snow just blow off than contaminating the whole airframe with deice fluid when it's that cold out.

Before we assume the crew took an unacceptable risk, consider that they may have taken the safer path. Very cold weather operations are a unique beast.

I thought about this as well and came to the same conclusion. What are the guidelines for deicing anyways?



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12397 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15014 times:
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Quoting apruzesse13 (Reply 5):
As pax is stating in his trip review (in Russian), no deicing treatment done despite aircraft coming out of overnight prolonged parking/storage

But is this known for a fact? The other Emb-120 parked next to it (and the Tu-154 it passes) does look like it's been there overnight, but it looks a lot worse than the one in question.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineMH017 From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 1685 posts, RR: 31
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 12951 times:

...snow to be just blown off the wings ?...

- even after take-off and flying above the mist-layer, snow can still be seen on the wings.
- de-icing boots were not used.
- during landing at Perm, it seems to me (according to the smoke coming from the chimneys), this was a tail-wind landing.

To me, this was an un-safe operation !



don't throw away tomorrow !
User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1551 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11272 times:

Quoting MH017 (Reply 12):
...snow to be just blown off the wings ?...

- even after take-off and flying above the mist-layer, snow can still be seen on the wings.
- de-icing boots were not used.
- during landing at Perm, it seems to me (according to the smoke coming from the chimneys), this was a tail-wind landing.

To me, this was an un-safe operation !

Well, I guess every operation is unsafe then. Better stick to driving on your next holiday. Lets get to the facts, shall we?? It's a known practice that snow can blow off the wings and be 100% safe. Airlines in the US, Europe and other safe countries do it everyday with no issues.

De ice boots? For what? De-ice boots are there to remove ice that accumulates on the leading edge of the wing, not for loose snow on the wings. You would never use them either on the ground during a snow operation, only in flight for ice accumulation. Also here is an interesting fact, on the aircraft that I fly, we don't blow the boots until almost an inch to an inch and a half of ice has accumulated on the leading edge of the wing to ensure a clean break, and that is manufacture recommended. Scary for a passenger sitting inside, sure, but 100% safe.

Again, airplanes of all types have max tailwind components that they can use. Just because you see some chimney smoke blowing in the light breeze, does not mean an unsafe operation.

Not to sound mean or anything, but their seems to be a lot of arm chair pilots on this topic that think they know everything about icing procedures. Stick to what you know best, and if you don't know it, ask questions to educate yourself. After reviewing the take numerous times, I can honestly say I see nothing wrong with the take off or the operation. This coming from someone who has over 4000 hours in a turboprop aircraft!!!



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6588 posts, RR: 55
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11218 times:

In our airline the wings must be completely free of snow, frost, ice etc...it has to be a clean wing. What is shown in this video is unacceptable for us but then I de-ice at plenty of places where none of the other major carriers are bothering to do so. Maybe one reason why CX is ranked so highly in safety studies by the authorities. The only thing we are allowed is slight hoar frost on the underside of the wing.

User currently offlinejetracer5 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10822 times:

I fly for a major U.S. airline and we have a clean wing rule. No ice, frost or snow on top or bottom.

User currently offlineKGRB From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 705 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10804 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 13):
Airlines are also allowed to take off with certain frost attached to the fuselage of the aircraft, without needing to be de-iced!

Yes, ExpressJet -- the legacy ASA side -- is one such operator that allows light frost on top of the fuselage in certain conditions. I'm unsure if it's the same way on the ERJ side. Ironically, their corporate parent, SkyWest, tends to be a lot more picky in my experience. They don't allow overnight deicing, for example.

There have been times where we've had multiple Connection carriers leaving at the same time and the SkyWest flight wants deicing while the other one doesn't. It all depends on the captain, I guess.



Δ D E L T A: Keep Climbing
User currently offlineAV8AJET From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10557 times:

Now this Airbus on the other hand still amazes me!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=925MgqyU2NA



"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3061 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10377 times:

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 17):
Now this Airbus on the other hand still amazes me!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=925Mg...yU2NA

Yeah that was classic, long thread in Tech-Ops discussing it,

Takeoff With Iced Wings - A320 - Video (by bueb0g Apr 9 2012 in Tech Ops)



The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10141 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 13):
De-ice boots are there to remove ice that accumulates on the leading edge of the wing, not for loose snow on the wings.

If you ran the de-ice boots with loose snow, don't you run the risk of actually melting some of the snow from residual pneumatic heat and actually *creating* ice on the leading edge?

Tom.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4915 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9929 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 14):
In our airline the wings must be completely free of snow, frost, ice etc...it has to be a clean wing.

This is not always the best course of action, namely, when it gets very cold. (Like the two Russian videos above).

What would CX do if it were -28C, and lightly snowing? Now, we all know that when it gets that cold, snow will not stick to the wing. We also know it would blow off during take-off. That is why under Canadian Air Regs, take off under those conditions is allowed.

However, you DO have to confirm that it will blow off, usually by a broom (or I have seen a leaf blower) on a representative area, and also by doing that you are confirming there is no ice underneath. But ... it is still snowing, so more snow will accumulate on the wing, which will blow off on take-off.

So what would CX do?

This is where it gets tricky. Type IV fluid is only good down to -27C, and below -14C hold over time is only 15 minutes! Below -27C, only Type 1 Fluid can be used, and get this ... below -11C hold over time is only 4 minutes!!!

But ... there is NO hold over time, if snow is accumulating on the wing when it is very cold, and you have confirmed it will blow off. (see leaf blower above!) In fact, if you did try to de-ice/anti-ice, then you could cause more problems, as now snow IS adhering to your wing, where it wasn't before.

So I am just curious, what does CX do when they visit cold climates, like Canada, and find these very cold conditions?

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 8):
Very cold weather operations are a unique beast.

Hear hear!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6588 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9674 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 20):
Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 14):
In our airline the wings must be completely free of snow, frost, ice etc...it has to be a clean wing.

This is not always the best course of action, namely, when it gets very cold. (Like the two Russian videos above).

What would CX do if it were -28C, and lightly snowing? Now, we all know that when it gets that cold, snow will not stick to the wing. We also know it would blow off during take-off. That is why under Canadian Air Regs, take off under those conditions is allowed.

However, you DO have to confirm that it will blow off, usually by a broom (or I have seen a leaf blower) on a representative area, and also by doing that you are confirming there is no ice underneath. But ... it is still snowing, so more snow will accumulate on the wing, which will blow off on take-off.

So what would CX do?

This is where it gets tricky. Type IV fluid is only good down to -27C, and below -14C hold over time is only 15 minutes! Below -27C, only Type 1 Fluid can be used, and get this ... below -11C hold over time is only 4 minutes!!!

But ... there is NO hold over time, if snow is accumulating on the wing when it is very cold, and you have confirmed it will blow off. (see leaf blower above!) In fact, if you did try to de-ice/anti-ice, then you could cause more problems, as now snow IS adhering to your wing, where it wasn't before.

So I am just curious, what does CX do when they visit cold climates, like Canada, and find these very cold conditions?

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 8):
Very cold weather operations are a unique beast.

Hear hear!


Quite simply, if there is snow accumulating and hold over times have been passed then the aircraft must return for de-icing and more anti-icing. In conditions that you describe it is very likely that the flight would get cancelled. Other aircraft departing would not change this. These are our rules funnily enough based on Canadian regulations.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4915 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9592 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 21):
Quite simply, if there is snow accumulating and hold over times have been passed then the aircraft must return for de-icing and more anti-icing. In conditions that you describe it is very likely that the flight would get cancelled. Other aircraft departing would not change this. These are our rules funnily enough based on Canadian regulations.

It is not that hold over times are passed, it is that under these conditions it is physically impossible to get from a de-icing bay to the runway within these times.

Canadian Air Regs are the result of decades of flying in adverse weather conditions, and even after regulations were tightened as a result of the Dryden crash ... it is still considered far far safer to NOT de-ice under very cold conditions.

However, if CX's position is to stay at the gate when it gets cold, so be it. I have seen cold snaps in YYZ, colder than -27C last more than two weeks. I have visions of dozens of CX airplanes laying around YYZ safely arriving, but not being able to leave!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineapruzesse13 From Ukraine, joined Dec 2012, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9467 times:

Here

Quoting longhauler (Reply 20):

What would CX do if it were -28C, and lightly snowing? Now, we all know that when it gets that cold, snow will not stick to the wing. We also know it would blow off during take-off. That is why under Canadian Air Regs, take off under those conditions is allowed.

Herebelow an extract from Canadian Air Regs: see 2.12.2.c Clean Aircraft Concept

2.12 Flight Operations in Winter

2.12.1 General

The continuing number of accidents involving all types and classes of aircraft indicates that misconceptions exist regarding the effect on performance of frost, snow or ice accumulation on aircraft.

Most commercial transport aircraft, as well as some other aircraft types, have demonstrated some capability to fly in icing conditions and have been so certified. This capacity is provided by installing de-icing or anti-icing equipment on or in critical areas of equipment, such as the leading edges of the wings and empennage, engine cowls, compressor inlets, propellers, stall warning devices, windshields and pitots. However, this equipment does not provide any means of de-icing or anti-icing the wings or empennage of an aircraft that is on the ground.

2.12.2 Aircraft Contamination on the Ground—Frost, Ice or Snow

(a) General Information: Where frost, ice or snow may reasonably be expected to adhere to the aircraft, the Canadian aviation regulations require that an inspection or inspections be made before takeoff or attempted takeoff. The type and minimum number of inspections is indicated by the regulations, and depends on whether or not the operator has an approved Operator’s Ground Icing Operations Program using the Ground Icing Operations Standard as specified in CAR 622.11 – Operating and Flight Rules Standards.

The reasons for the regulations are straightforward. The degradation in aircraft performance and changes in flight characteristics when frozen contaminants are present are wide ranging and unpredictable. Contamination makes no distinction between large aircraft, small aircraft or helicopters, the performance penalites and dangers are just as real.

The significance of these effects are such that takeoff should not be attempted unless the pilot-in-command has determined, as required by the CARs, that frost ice or snow contamination is not adhering to any aircraft critical surfaces.

(b) Critical Surfaces: Critical surfaces of an aircraft means the wings, control surfaces, rotors, propellers, horizontal stabilizers, vertical stabilizers or any other stabilizing surface of an aircraft and, in the case of an aircraft that has rear-mounted engines, includes the upper surface of its fuselage.

Flight safety during ground operations in conditions conducive to frost, ice or snow contamination requires a knowledge of:

(i) adverse effects of frost, ice or snow on aircraft performance and flight characteristics, which are generally reflected in the form of decreased thrust, decreased lift, increased drag, increased stall speed, trim changes, altered stall characteristics and handling qualities;

(ii) various procedures available for aircraft ground de-icing and anti-icing, and the capabilities and limitations of these procedures in various weather conditions, including the use and effectiveness of freezing point depressant (FPD) fluids;

(iii) holdover time, which is the estimated time that an application of an approved de-icing/anti-icing fluid is effective in preventing frost, ice, or snow from adhering to treated surfaces. Holdover time is calculated as beginning at the start of the final application of an approved de-icing/ anti-icing fluid and as expiring when the fluid is no longer effective. The fluid is no longer effective when its ability to absorb more precipitation has been exceeded. This produces a visible surface build-up of contamination. Recognition that final assurance of a safe takeoff rests in the pretakeoff inspection.

(c) The Clean Aircraft Concept: CARs prohibit takeoff when frost, ice or snow is adhering to any critical surface of the aircraft. This is referred to as “The Clean Aircraft Concept”.

It is imperative that takeoff not be attempted in any aircraft unless the pilot-in-command has determined that all critical components of the aircraft are free of frost, ice or snow contamination. This requirement may be met if the pilot-in-command obtains verification from properly trained and qualified personnel that the aircraft is ready for flight.


User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6588 posts, RR: 55
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9446 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 22):
However, if CX's position is to stay at the gate when it gets cold, so be it. I have seen cold snaps in YYZ, colder than -27C last more than two weeks. I have visions of dozens of CX airplanes laying around YYZ safely arriving, but not being able to leave!

Not quite if it just gets cold. CX's policy is to not takeoff if there is contamination on the wings. If holdover times have passed and there is nothing on the wing then we can depart. It is not for us to decide what types of contamination are ok and what isn't. If holdover times have not passed but there is contamination that the anti-ice is not taking care of then we do not depart. If conditions like that were to last two whole weeks (unlikely) then yes flights would be delayed two weeks.


25 apruzesse13 : Yes? Do you have some names? Maybe a reason why TP operations in US are rapidly disappearing due to their perceived lower safety standards by the tra
26 longhauler : Thank you. Trust me, this time of year I am well acquainted with the "Clean Aircraft Concept" of the Air Regs. And ... now that days are getting long
27 Post contains links apruzesse13 : Longhauler, I did not find this exception on the document below: http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviatio...p14371-air-2-0-5382.htm#air-2-12-2
28 longhauler : No you wont, it is not a part of the on-line Internet version of the Canadian Air Regs. That is why I mentioned it, I assumed you did not have access
29 apruzesse13 : Thx; Quite strange however as it kind of kills the whole clean aircraft concept. So if I understand well, by Canadian rules, takeoff is strictly forb
30 longhauler : Not quite. What it is saying is that a clean aircraft is always the best option, and you will find that is what most air operators in Canada do. Howe
31 apruzesse13 : But as we can see on the Rusline video, snow is still adhering after the takeoff roll and is blown off only after 4mns in flight.... So what did the c
32 longhauler : I have no idea. Did you ask him?
33 apruzesse13 : I would... but don't speak Russian
34 cbphoto : Correct, what you are mentioning here is called a Pre-contamination check that the crew would do if the holdover time has expired. The crew will visu
35 apruzesse13 : Personnally I would love that an airline communicate on its deicing policy if they apply a more conservative standard than the rest of the crowd. I w
36 AY-MD11 : I have seen more snow on wings and fuselage at HEL on commuter prop saabs when departing. Have seen russian plane crew go on wing of them airplane and
37 francoflier : Exactly, and I would think experienced Russian crews have an intimate knowledge of that beast. Which is not to say that some do not take risky libert
38 Mark2fly1034 : Correct me if I am wrong but ice does not form at -27C? Maybe I am thinking in F
39 Post contains images brilondon : You are from France according to your profile, so I guess a clean aircraft is somewhat of a rarity in your neck of the woods as well. Actually, most
40 TrnsWrld : Am I missing something here? I just watched the youtube video from inside the EMB-120 and I see absolutely zero ice or snow on that aircraft. mmmmk, m
41 rfields5421 : Ice will form at -27C or -27F, provided the moisture arrives in liquid form and freezes when it touches something that cold. However for context of t
42 longhauler : That is the problem when a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. For example, when very cold it is safer to NOT de-ice, as de-icing introduces more
43 longhauler : I should also add a few things. First of all, the people here are not advocating any unsafe procedures. They are simply explaining that under some co
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