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Turkish Airlines Avoiding Israeli Airspace?  
User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5119 posts, RR: 12
Posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6978 times:

I was just following the Wizzair flight TLV-BUD when I noticed two TK flights flying south around Israel to Amman and another to Jeddah.

Especially for Amman that routing is long. I understand why they wont overfly Syria, but why not Israel? They even fly to TLV .


Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12408 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6918 times:

It may be because they are en route to an Arab country; if you were on a plane bound for Jeddah with 150 Saudis, the last thing you want to hear is "we're making an emergency diversion to Tel Aviv".

User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4380 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6918 times:

Quoting KL911 (Thread starter):
They even fly to TLV .

Yes, 32 x weekly IST-TLV.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24814 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6910 times:

Maybe we need a lesson on history.

Simply put, there are no airways via Israel to place like Saudi Arabia, nor Lebanon, or Syria. The ATC authorities are not even linked to provide handoff's.

For Jordan, yes in a single airway was opened in the last decade for Amman traffic, however its use is limited due to Israeli security procedures.

Below is a map of all high altitude airways in Israel. Basically its all designed for Israel destined and origin traffic, not overflight.

Download:
http://en.caa.gov.il/index.php?optio...task=doc_download&gid=1048&Itemid=

and low level airways:
http://en.caa.gov.il/index.php?optio...task=doc_download&gid=1366&Itemid=

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinevoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2071 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6832 times:

I can recall visiting Jerusalem in ~2000 though and seeing airliner contrails high overhead. Def. widebody straight line east-west headings and not some sort of 707 tanker activity.


` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5119 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6822 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Maybe we need a lesson on history.

Simply put, there are no airways via Israel to place like Saudi Arabia, nor Lebanon, or Syria. The ATC authorities are not even linked to provide handoff's.

For Jordan, yes in a single airway was opened in the last decade for Amman traffic, however its use is limited due to Israeli security procedures.

Below is a map of all high altitude airways in Israel. Basically its all designed for Israel destined and origin traffic, not overflight.

Thanks, that explains it. It was just weird to see in one frame a TK TLV-IST and the other 2 TK going around Israel.



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6026 times:

The Great Circle AMM-IST also goes over a very, very heavily guarded area of airspace around the Golan Heights. As for JED, the Saudi authorities would also not allow the flight to approach through Israeli airspace either.


The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1653 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5426 times:

Even Sudan does not allow the overfly of any plane with origin or destination in Israel, not long ago my airline send a plane for a C check to TLV and they have to land in luxor going up and down, even having the range and the possibility to do it direct, but then they have to avoid flying over Sudan.

User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5334 times:

Quoting KL911 (Thread starter):
I was just following the Wizzair flight TLV-BUD when I noticed two TK flights flying south around Israel to Amman and another to Jeddah.

Especially for Amman that routing is long. I understand why they wont overfly Syria, but why not Israel? They even fly to TLV .

The current detours are somewhat new. Before the current situation in Syria started, they flew through Syrian airspace instead and approached Amman from the north.



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User currently offlinepeterinlisbon From Portugal, joined Jan 2006, 460 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5172 times:

I flew from Amman to London in April and we flew over Israel. After takeoff the captain explained that we had permission to overfly Israel, so everyone had to stay seated with their seatbelts fastened until we were 100 miles out over the Mediterranean Sea.

User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5110 times:

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 9):
I flew from Amman to London in April and we flew over Israel. After takeoff the captain explained that we had permission to overfly Israel, so everyone had to stay seated with their seatbelts fastened until we were 100 miles out over the Mediterranean Sea.

So your flight got permission to use the previously mentioned transit airways:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
For Jordan, yes in a single airway was opened in the last decade for Amman traffic, however its use is limited due to Israeli security procedures.

Below is a map of all high altitude airways in Israel. Basically its all designed for Israel destined and origin traffic, not overflight.

Download:
http://en.caa.gov.il/index.php?optio...task=doc_download&gid=1048&Itemid=

and low level airways:
http://en.caa.gov.il/index.php?optio...task=doc_download&gid=1366&Itemid=



Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
User currently offlineAirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 879 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4774 times:

What about the LY flights which are allowed to fly over the Red Sea heading South, to avoid the Arabic Peninsula.

Who is managing the ATC of this AirNav route and where is based the ATC? Has it an international Status through the United Nations?

Because at some point, you are right in the middle between Saudi Arabia and Sudan.


User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4642 times:

What about flights Beirut- Amman? Do they go up the coast, then down through Syria?
And what about LY flights to Mumbai? How do they avoid the Middle East?
Are there any other countries that Israeli aircraft cannot overfly?



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4560 times:

With the exception of some Israel friendly Islamic states, they are not allowed to over fly any other Islamic countyr, I dont know aboute the two or three non-Islamic ones that broke off ties with them. for Bombay they fly over international waters of the Red sea and then turn near Yemen, sometimes they have entered Yemeni airspace by mistake too.

User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4491 times:

Interesting how El Al have entered Yemeni airspace without consequence.
This incident came to mind http://alethonews.wordpress.com/2012...moriam-libyan-airlines-flight-114/ where a Libyan 727 was shot down after accidentally entering Israeli airspace after a huge sand storm made navigation difficult.

[Edited 2013-01-03 05:39:33]


Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4386 times:

Awarnig was issued by Yemen thae last time it was reported over a decade ago.

User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4320 times:

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 11):

What about the LY flights which are allowed to fly over the Red Sea heading South, to avoid the Arabic Peninsula.

There's a very, very exact route as far as Eritrea, but they have some flexibility over Eritrea, Ethiopia, and Djibouti, where they will turn, but then fly carefully again to avoid Yemen or Somalia. These routings are used by LY for TLV-BOM/JNB/BKK, as well as by ET for their TLV-ADD service. ET IIRC is unable to use Eritrean airspace and thus flies over Djibouti.



The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineavi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 939 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4305 times:

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 9):
I flew from Amman to London in April and we flew over Israel.

Did you fly with a Jordanian airline? They are allowed for years now to fly over Israel (under some security conditions).

Quoting raffik (Reply 12):
And what about LY flights to Mumbai? How do they avoid the Middle East?

Flights to India are only over water starting at southern Israel as already mentioned, flights to China departs to the west, go north into Turkey and to the east detouring Lebanon, Syria, Iran and Afghanistan.



Long live the B747
User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4252 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 12):
What about flights Beirut- Amman? Do they go up the coast, then down through Syria?

I'm not sure what you mean by "up the coast".

The normal routing is fairly straightforward:

Takeoff in Beirut, turn towards Damascus, when reaching Syrian airspace, turn south towards Amman.

The Jordanian and Lebanese governments don't have the same issues with the Syrian government that Turkey currently has, so I would think that routing is still in use.



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User currently offlinedxBrian From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4188 times:

This has very little to do with air routes in Israel, and everything to do with politics and the Air Traffic Control rules of the Arab countries. They do not allow aircraft to cross from Israeli airspace into their airspace, with the exception of Jordan, and that is only for landing at Amman. If you are not landing at Amman, you can't enter Jordan's airspace from Israeli airspace.

User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4066 times:

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 18):
I'm not sure what you mean by "up the coast".

The normal routing is fairly straightforward:

Takeoff in Beirut, turn towards Damascus, when reaching Syrian airspace, turn south towards Amman.

When I have flown from Beirut to Damascus (in 2001 with JAT) the aircraft flew north to about Byblos before crossing into Syria over the Bekaa valley and then heading South.

Alot of aircraft cross over at the Byblos point and I assumed this was to clear the mountains which rise very sharply to the east of the airport (in Beirut)?

Do you mean that the normal routing is to fly South along the Lebanese coast towards Israel and then cross over the South of Lebanon into Syria? I don't see how it is possible without overflying Israeli airspace

[Edited 2013-01-03 11:04:46]


Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlineavi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 939 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3988 times:

Quoting dxBrian (Reply 19):
...with the exception of Jordan, and that is only for landing at Amman. If you are not landing at Amman, you can't enter Jordan's airspace from Israeli airspace.

Not exactly true.
There were cases of Israeli flights from Tel Aviv (Ben Gurion or Sde Dov) to Eilat that actually flew east of the border under Jordanian ATC.



Long live the B747
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24803 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3854 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 12):
And what about LY flights to Mumbai? How do they avoid the Middle East?

See Reply 16. That route adds almost 3 hours to the flight time, and obviously means much higher operating costs.

Example:

LY TLV-BOM block time 7:55
RJ AMM-BOM block time 5:10

Great circle distance TLV-BOM (2187 nm) is only 58 nm further than AMM-BOM (2129 nm).


User currently offlineflyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3536 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 20):
When I have flown from Beirut to Damascus (in 2001 with JAT) the aircraft flew north to about Byblos before crossing into Syria over the Bekaa valley and then heading South.

Alot of aircraft cross over at the Byblos point and I assumed this was to clear the mountains which rise very sharply to the east of the airport (in Beirut)?

Do you mean that the normal routing is to fly South along the Lebanese coast towards Israel and then cross over the South of Lebanon into Syria? I don't see how it is possible without overflying Israeli airspace

Ah, that is what you mean. Given how close Byblos is to Beirut, I did not identify that as "up the coast".

What I thought you meant was that they fly north along the coast to Tartus in Syria, turning towards Homs and then south again towards Damascus. Which wouldn't make any sense.



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