Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
MSP Hopes To Regain Non-stop Flights To Hawaii  
User currently offlineaf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2688 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 17824 times:

http://www.startribune.com/local/185343962.html?page=3&c=y

The Metropolitan Airports Commission (MAC) is apparently offering incentives to any carrier that starts non-stop flights from MSP to Hawaii. The article also mentions the upcoming AF CDG-MSP service, and attracting B6 to start service at MSP.

If I remember correctly DL dropped HNL-MSP service a couple years ago. It seems like this route was always a success for NW, but I'm not sure what the passenger loads were for DL. So with this incentive would DL be interested in restarting HNL-MSP, or if we're really lucky HA will begin flights to MSP? Not sure if SY could fly non-stop MSP-HNL with a 737.


It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
124 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 17789 times:

Minnesotans definitely need lots of sun flights in the wintertime time from there...... probably can't get enough of them, and a daily to HNL I would think is something that has the prospect to do (and probably did) quite well.

So if there are incentives........ and DL discontinued this flight (maybe to feed the SLC traffic?), well......HA maybe?

 


User currently offlineck8msp From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 17771 times:

I wonder what DL response would be if HA decided to try this route? What about a codeshare with Alaska?

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5437 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 17661 times:

I believe MSP is one of the largest Hawaiian markets without nonstop service at this time so it doesn't seem too far fetched to expect it to happen sometime in the foreseeable future. DL or HA would seem like the likely cx to consider it but HA might want to add a few larger markets first (such as ORD or DEN) rather than a smaller un-served market such as MSP.

And as for DL, their experiment of a few years ago with MSP and SAN to HNL was a quick and odd failure. (As for SAN, most of us here are still scratching our heads about it. Since then, AS has jumped in and seems to have no problem profitably filling multiple flights in the market.) MSP, being a major hub, is also very hard to figure out.

The incentives offered by MSP could tip the scales enough to get someone willing to try the market again. Good luck!

bb


User currently offlinemplsjefe From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 17619 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
DL or HA would seem like the likely cx to consider it but HA might want to add a few larger markets first (such as ORD or DEN)

How is DEN a bigger market? MSP has over a million more people in its metro area than DEN does.


User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 17504 times:

The DEN HA service would serve up into Wyoming and all of Colorado. Also, West Kansas. That gets pretty big.

The Denver metronome area stats don't include Boulder and Fort Collins, both of which use DEN. Also, some people between COS and DEN use DEN, and COS connections. Add in the fact that Colorado is overall slightly more affluent, and service starts to make sense. Small areas and unimportant Airports don't get 50 million pax in a year.

However, we travel on a budget. We fly for leisure a fair amount, but we fly economy. Add in the highway robbery airport fees at DEN and it becomes a large, low-yield market. Also, UA has Hawaii service, IIRC. The market is there, but the yield might not be.

ORD has a wee bit of competition. That said, HA can't go and skip it.

I think ORD and MSP are the next two HA markets, followed soon in the order by DEN. The MSP winter is so fun people want to go to Hawaii. With the restructuring and merger, it made sense as a company for DL to cut MSP-HNL. But it will be served soonish, so DL might want to be ready to try and kill the HA service when it comes rolling in.


User currently offlinexjramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2461 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 17490 times:

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 4):
Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
DL or HA would seem like the likely cx to consider it but HA might want to add a few larger markets first (such as ORD or DEN)

How is DEN a bigger market? MSP has over a million more people in its metro area than DEN does.

DEN is the 5th largest airport per passenger volume at 25,667,499 vs MSP in the 16th spot at only 15,895,653 passenger volume. This according to the 2011 numbers.



Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 17458 times:

Pax numbers don't mean large cities. ATL isn't the largest city. Its an overly massive hub. DEN is one of the UA and WN main transfer points, and the largest F9 hub. And the DEN MSA numbers don't accurately reflect the actual market size. DEN is the only major airport for a few hundred miles north and east. COS to the south, some Wyoming airfields to the north, a few EAS airfields in west Kansas, and EGE/ASE to the west. And those Airports don't really take a ton of pax from DEN.

What equipment was previously operated by DL MSP-ATL?


User currently offlinexjramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2461 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 17425 times:

A330 which during it's short life alternated between MSP and DTW.

And pax numbers have everything to do with planning new cities. If you are going to start a new route, you need to have to not only rely on O&D traffic, but connecting as well. The fact that DEN had 10 mil more passengers go through it's airport could play a significant factor as to where they start that flight.



Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlinemplsjefe From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 17379 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 7):

DEN is the 5th largest airport per passenger volume at 25,667,499 vs MSP in the 16th spot at only 15,895,653 passenger volume. This according to the 2011 numbers.

I thought we were talking O&D for flight(s) to HNL. DEN enjoys its 5th largest 'status' from very frequent F9 and WN movements. Kudos to them, but DEN is not bigger than MSP from every metric. MSP has far more international service with direct flights CDG, AMS, and NRT all on DL, and soon to be CDG on AF and likely ICN on KE beginning early 2014. DEN has none of these, or any service over-ocean outside of LHR on BA and KEF on FI, both of which MSP also has on DL and FI.

MSP-ATL is still many many times per day on a variety of metal as it is fortress hub to fortress hub.


User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 17371 times:

Yes, I believe DEN is a large airport. Pax amount matters for starting flights. But pax amounts doesn't always reflect city, MSA, or catchement area size, which can differ.

The problem with DEN service is that ever since the new airport opened it is a been a quite low yielding airport. It works OK under the right situation, but the fees are insane. It is literally $16 or $17 per 1,000 pounds of Max Landing weight. Some major Airports are as low as $1 or $2, and many are $3/$4. And that's just one fee. Wait until see how much a gate costs.

MSP will probably be higher yielding due to lack of competition (unless DL launches it 2 days later), and down to earth fees. Maybe HA will start with ORD, add winter seasonal MSP, year round DEN, then year round MSP?

They can't just ignore two of the top busiest Airports in the US, so DEN and ORD will receive service at some point. But CURRENTLY MSP is a large niche market that is unserved. We might end up with HA to ORD and DEN and DL on MSP. But HA will most likely launch the route at some point, or DL as a chance to get the edge on HA.

One issue for DL is spare widebodies. Where do you find them?

MSP will receive HNL service in my opinion, and probably fairly soon. The carrier(s) and equipment are yet to be discovered.


User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1555 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 17191 times:

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 9):
MSP has far more international service with direct flights CDG, AMS, and NRT all on DL, and soon to be CDG on AF and likely ICN on KE beginning early 2014. DEN has none of these, or any service over-ocean outside of LHR on BA and KEF on FI, both of which MSP also has on DL and FI.

Don't forget DEN has LH to FRA and soon to have NRT on UA.

As for ICN on KE, has anything publicly been stated, or is it an A-net pipe dream?

I do agree, HNL is a huge hole in the MSP network and it will only be a matter of time before it is filled. Don't be surprised to see HA get little to no response from DL, as it seems lately DL doesn't care too much about new airlines flying into MSP! Then again, we could have HA and DL flying A330s non stop from HNL to MSP!



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlinexjramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2461 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 17143 times:

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 10):
MSP will receive HNL service in my opinion, and probably fairly soon. The carrier(s) and equipment are yet to be discovered.

MSP has had HNL flights in the past, with DL A330s.

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 9):
DEN enjoys its 5th largest 'status' from very frequent F9 and WN movements.

To me that would be the biggest drivers, especially if Hawaiian Airlines is looking for a variety of passengers. People who fly DL on a consistent basis will usually look for DL to DL metal first before looking at other options.

DEN has quite a few international destinations, outside the typical America's run, you have LH to FRA, BA to LHR, UA is restarting the TYO route sometime mid march.

That being said, Hawaii is generally not the first choice when it comes to European's vacation plans, simply because of the amount of travel involved. So international travel from Europe won't be a huge factor. And those coming from Asia can find a multitude of other ways of getting to HNL other than MSP.

So even though DEN has Frontier and Southwest/Airtran boosting them up to the #5 spot, that would be the catchment group of passengers that HA would be willing to look at, rather than a predominately DL hub. DL tried it and it failed miserably. Not sure how HA would do any better



Look ma' no hands!
User currently onlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7578 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 17132 times:

Quoting af773atmsp (Thread starter):
If I remember correctly DL dropped HNL-MSP service a couple years ago. It seems like this route was always a success for NW, but I'm not sure what the passenger loads were for DL. So with this incentive would DL be interested in restarting HNL-MSP, or if we're really lucky HA will begin flights to MSP? Not sure if SY could fly non-stop MSP-HNL with a 737.
Quoting ck8msp (Reply 2):
I wonder what DL response would be if HA decided to try this route? What about a codeshare with Alaska?

HA and DL do mileage transfers, so I think HA could do this route easily. I think it would be a good route for HA actually. That area is a highly under-served lucrative market to the islands



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4404 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 17078 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

I'm a little disappointed DL hasn't returned in the MSP-HNL market. NW flew it with DC-10's for a long time before the merger, mostly daily over the years year around IIRC.

Quoting af773atmsp (Thread starter):
sure if SY could fly non-stop MSP-HNL with a 737.

Little too far for a full payload.

Quoting af773atmsp (Thread starter):
So with this incentive would DL be interested in restarting HNL-MSP, or if we're really lucky HA will begin flights to MSP?
HA would be pretty sweet to see in MSP. I'm sure DL would do better with connecting feed however, even with HA offering connections to the islands in Hawaii.

Quoting af773atmsp (Thread starter):
and attracting B6 to start service at MSP.

Hmm, JFK or BOS perhaps? I wouldn't think Florida service but you never know. SY runs year around service to both those destinations plus DL has multiple frequencies on both MSP-JFK and MSP-BOS.

[Edited 2013-01-01 00:20:18]


Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD.
User currently offlinexjramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2461 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 17077 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
HA and DL do mileage transfers, so I think HA could do this route easily. I think it would be a good route for HA actually. That area is a highly under-served lucrative market to the islands

The DL and HA is an extremely weird partnership. No US Mainland, Korea, or Japan count towards bonus mileage accrual. The only places besides inter-island flights are SYD, PPT, MNL and Pago. Above all, none are counted for MQMs.



Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2005 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 17064 times:

I wonder if HA and DL could side a codeshare agreement a la AS?

User currently onlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7578 posts, RR: 18
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 17036 times:

Quoting xjramper (Reply 15):
The DL and HA is an extremely weird partnership. No US Mainland, Korea, or Japan count towards bonus mileage accrual. The only places besides inter-island flights are SYD, PPT, MNL and Pago. Above all, none are counted for MQMs.

?? Japan does count. I asked when i was about to book an HNL-HND flight earlier this year (those plans got scrapped when my schedule changed) and HA said that I could earn Sky Miles on that. DL also said I would too.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinexjramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2461 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 16995 times:

This is a link from delta.com's website about accrual with HA:

http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_...rs/airlines/hawaiian-airlines.html



Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlineDrmlnr1 From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 16020 times:

B6 to MSP would be awesome! Being located near SAN and having family near MSP I would definitely consider B6 for my travel. As far as HNL goes, I think DL still operates to HNL from MSP albeit with a stop. If someone could convince DL to change it to non-stop, then DL will make money on that route. I do see that route operated by the 787 once DL gets theirs in the 2020's.


Flying is relaxing!
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4235 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 15855 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
I believe MSP is one of the largest Hawaiian markets without nonstop service at this time so it doesn't seem too far fetched to expect it to happen sometime in the foreseeable future. DL or HA would seem like the likely cx to consider it but HA might want to add a few larger markets first (such as ORD or DEN) rather than a smaller un-served market such as MSP.

You would be living in a dream world if you think that it would be profitable. Most government subsidies are to get businesses to locate in their areas or to service the businesses in their area. They don't go out and subsidize operations that don't make sense as a whole. What benefit to Minneapolis would subsidizing a flight to HNL, a place that has little to no economic benefit to the MSP area. Yes, it would be nice to have a non-stop service to HNL, and I am one that would really love to have a faster way to get to my parents home in YXU. It just doesn't make sense economically to the region. You can dream but that all it will ever be, a dream.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6476 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 15550 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 20):
Most government subsidies are to get businesses to locate in their areas or to service the businesses in their area.


This is not a government subsidy, but a Metro Airport Commission subsidy. The Airport commission operates as its own entity


User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3483 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14632 times:

Quoting xjramper (Reply 8):
And pax numbers have everything to do with planning new cities. If you are going to start a new route, you need to have to not only rely on O&D traffic, but connecting as well. The fact that DEN had 10 mil more passengers go through it's airport could play a significant factor as to where they start that flight.

Those passengers were divided between 3 hub airlines, MSP functions as a larger hub with DL than any singular airline at DEN.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 11):
As for ICN on KE, has anything publicly been stated, or is it an A-net pipe dream?

O&D has grown by leaps and bounds between MSP-ICN, and with downguaging of equipment between NRT-ICN and less reliance on NRT as a connecting point, as well as the relationship with KE, it's only a matter of time before MSP-ICN is started. ICN is one of the largest transpacific markets from MSP, along with NRT and PVG. I think ICN will start sometime before EOY-2014, especially since this is a market that can be served by an A330 rather than a 777 or something larger.

Jeremy


User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14569 times:

The Airports often will cut fees on certain new routes to attract a carrier to start them. Often, there are certain requirements about previous service and other things. But I'm pretty sure that MSP-HNL would qualify for HA. I'm not sure about DL because they flew the route previously.

As far as international connections, DEN will soon have 4 intercontinental flights: KEF, LHR, FRA, and NRT. And why wpuld anyone at all fly HNL-DEN-NRT? ORD obviously has loads more, and MSP has IIRC KEF, LHR, NRT, AMS, CDG. So international connections won't get HA to DEN. WN and F9 have a variety of Mexican and a few Caribbean destinations, but I think all can be reached from ORD, MSP, or cities where there is already HA service.

Also, the DL 787 situation is a mess. Most people, me included, think they will switch the order to the -9. And the 787 is better for Longer haul and bigger name routes than MSP-HNL. However, with the amount of 767/A330 routes it will take, one of those two could start HNL-MSP for DL.


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14551 times:

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 10):
The problem with DEN service is that ever since the new airport opened it is a been a quite low yielding airport.

Actually, DEN used to be a high yielding airport up until about 10 years ago. In 2000, United had a 66% market share compared to its current 40% market share. Back then, DEN had no Southwest service and Frontier was a small carrier that posed no real threat to United.



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
25 bobnwa : I hardly consider the Delta 787 situation a mess, at least not to Delta management. The Aircraft came in overweight and unable to perform to its prom
26 Post contains links trex8 : Believe it or not but the nuts in Washington have been "subsidizing" air fares on unprofitable routes for years! Whether they benefit the local commu
27 UA787DEN : True about the service 10 yeas ago. But for foreign or new carriers starting in, the fees were not very attractive, especially if you weren't star All
28 SANFan : Just to clarify, I meant that MSP-Hawaii is one of the largest Hawaii-mainland markets with no nonstop service now. The latest info that I have is 20
29 Continental : I am more impressed by the new and surprisingly good food options going to Terminal 2. I could really care less, but man is that terminal bare post-se
30 Flighty : At peak periods, around 2004, NW had double daily MSP-HNL on DC-10 plus a daily DTW-HNL. This was for holiday peak weeks. Imagine all the fuel. And,
31 xjramper : And yet, DL couldn't make the non-stop HNL flights work, even as a larger hub. It doesn't matter where they are coming from. If an airline has the op
32 UA787DEN : NW sure made it work. DL inherited the large MSP and DTW hubs in the merger. They weren't in the best financial state and the merger had a new set of
33 toering : Speaking of non-stop MSP-HNL , I flew this route with a return in April 1990 on a NW 747. Was that 747 a -200 or -100? I'm trying to figure out all th
34 TR1 : Would Delta's new 76Z configuration with 26 Business class seats make MSP-HNL viable again? Right now it appears DL's aircraft capable of doing MSP-HN
35 xjramper : Quite honestly, if the route was making good money, it wouldn't have been axed. Plain and simple. If Delta hadn't made such a great profit over the l
36 Flighty : Even if DEN is the world's largest airport, you would have to justify an HNL flight based on that _airline's_ market size. UA's market at DEN may be
37 xjramper : Not sure what Hawaiian Air's market share has to do with UAs?
38 stratosphere : Don't know which one you flew in 1990 but I flew from HNL to MSP in Feb 1992 on a 747-100 it was a/c 6601 which is now (at least the nose section) in
39 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : Northwest Airlines was headquartered at MSP. Delta is headquartered at ATL. Delta does not have the same interest in MSP as Northwest did. For Delta,
40 MSPNWA : No doubt to try to woo in HA. I'd love to see it, and I think it has a real chance considering HA's use of the 763ER. I'm pretty sure this is right,
41 Flytravel : Strategically, it should add MSP, MKE as stations and change of ORD to MDW. For MSP, begin with 2x BOS-MSP service and maybe 1x JFK-MSP. Also, the 5
42 Prost : DL never ordered the 787, they inherited them from the merger with NW. It's an important distinction because what NW needed the 787 for is different
43 iowaman : I would be very, very surprised to see B6 launch routes like MSP-DFW and MSP-MKE. DL and WN have plenty of seats on MSP-MKE, and MSP-DFW is served by
44 bobloblaw : Well, according to that oh so reliable source Wiki, DEN MSA is 3.1m and MSP is 3.2m
45 PassedV1 : HA to MSP I think is in the cards...Reading between the lines in recent talks given by Dunkerly, I think Hawaiian will soon (in the next year) announc
46 Flytravel : If Sun Country, a very small carrier, can make about a 1x daily on these destination routes work from MSP, why wouldn't jetBlue be able to take a ris
47 slcdeltarumd11 : MSP use to be the western most hub for NWA. HNL was really the best fit. Now Delta can the same people NW use to fly via SLC or ATL instead. Its just
48 PSU.DTW.SCE : Whatever the incentive, it better be good. MSP-HNL is a long (expensive) route. Could HA make MSP work on MSP-originating traffic alone? When NW (and
49 PassedV1 : It's not just if the route is profitabel or not, it's if there is something more profitable out there that the aircraft could be utilized on. HNL-MSP
50 azjubilee : There are NO plans to replace the 717s at HAL at this time. HAL is happy with the 717 until roughly 2020. As for HAL to MSP... longshot at best. The o
51 Prost : But with Hawaiian's expansion in to international markets, they might be in a similar situation as Delta was. ie. Yes, we can make X dollars flying H
52 Post contains links mplsjefe : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_metropolitan_area 2.6 million vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis%E2%80%93Saint_Paul 3.6 million
53 Post contains links BA : DL offers a lot of connecting options to get to HNL from MSP. West of MSP, DL serves HNL from SLC, LAX, SFO, and SEA. In addition from LAX they serve
54 mplsjefe : I stand corrected.
55 LAXdude1023 : DEN actually has more international O&D than MSP does. DEN-Europe is actually quite a bit larger than MSP-Europe and not by an insignificant amou
56 mplsjefe : I was referring to direct flights, of which there are currently none from MSP-HNL. MSP has direct NRT service, DEN will get it in a few months. Given
57 Post contains links beechtobus : "Well, according to that oh so reliable source Wiki, DEN MSA is 3.1m and MSP is 3.2m" Actually the PSA (primary statistical area, which includes all
58 mplsjefe : This is a serious question: If DEN is so big compared to MSP, why no direct UA service to Europe or Asia? Why can DL make NRT/CDG/LHR/AMS work at MSP
59 adamh8297 : HNL-Europe for 2011 was 180 PDEW down 20% over an eight year period. Growth have been seen in Canadian flights but do you want to tangle with AC and
60 wingnutmn : Doesn't DL do mx for HA on the A332 in MSP? Could DL/HA/MAC come up with a 3 way agreement where HA flies an A332 to MSP daily. It sits for 6-8 hours
61 steex : It's not entirely about whether or not they can, but also whether or not they need to. You have to compare the overall networks of the two carriers i
62 usflyer msp : If MSP had the traffic stimulation caused by constant fare wars between UA, WN, F9, and NK that DEN has its traffic numbers would meet (and probably
63 mplsjefe : We see HA 332s in MSP fairly regularly. I am sure they could come up with something... Thank you. I appreciate the insight and info. Once AF comes in
64 adamh8297 : I'm wondering how its works myself. I thought they were throwing planes on flights that were available when they were not flying to leisure destinati
65 beechtobus : "This is a serious question: If DEN is so big compared to MSP, why no direct UA service to Europe or Asia? Why can DL make NRT/CDG/LHR/AMS work at MS
66 steex : Not a bad place to connect, either. As a long-time NW/DL customer living near STL, sometimes MSP feels like my second home!
67 FI642 : NW had the capacity to serve HNL. DL wants that metal for International use. Hawaii has always been a draw to use FQTV miles on, and frequently low y
68 iowaman : SY is the "hometown airline" of MSP. DL also has quite the loyalty in MSP of course. B6 is pretty much an unknown name or airline at this point to ma
69 beechtobus : "If MSP had the traffic stimulation caused by constant fare wars between UA, WN, F9, and NK that DEN has its traffic numbers would meet (and probably
70 toobz : I find it hard to believe anyone would want to fly 10hrs to Hawaii when MSPers have closer islands they could go to. Could you imagine what DL would h
71 GSPSPOT : After multiple visits to both Hawaii and a few Caribbean isles, I find Hawaii to be a superior place to spend my vacation time and money. The tempera
72 PSU.DTW.SCE : That is not a true statement. Simply because a flight was operated in the past does not mean it can work again in the future. The variables can, do,
73 brilondon : A subsidy is a subsidy, there still has to be a strong business case to entice airlines to start up such a route, they need to show a decent return f
74 LAXdude1023 : Its MDIT data. All of what Ive written is factual. As of now DEN-Asia and MSP-Asia are similar in size, though I expect DEN-Asia to pull ahead when t
75 PSU.DTW.SCE : I have to agree with your opinion, that offering a subsidy/incentive program for a route like MSP-HNL is a stupid waste of resources. Service to HNL
76 treebeard787 : That's not entirely true, FI serves MSP with daily seasonal flights, AF is going to be flying CDG-MSP daily starting soon as well. I also wouldn't be
77 southwest737500 : How can you state that there not performing good. I mean the bookings are considerby strong right now.
78 Post contains images point2point : I have to throw my in here. As per the Brookings Report on International O&D air pax to/ from U.S. metropolitan areas, DEN is ranked 16th with 50
79 LAXdude1023 : Just to clarify, I believe the numbers you have posted are round trip. To get PDEW, you would have to break them in half.
80 LAXdude1023 : To follow up, the PDEW data is below: DEN-Europe: 814 total passengers per day per direction DEN-Asia: 316 total passengers per day per direction MSP
81 AADC10 : No, you do not. In addition to a non-stop O&D premium, there are some routes that would remove a stop on the way to Hawaii. Some passengers are w
82 LAXdude1023 : Its true that some of the airport executives clamor for more DFW-Europe, but the truth is that DFW-Europe is well covered in terms of destinations. T
83 slcdeltarumd11 : Why has this become a DEN vs MSP fight? Who cares...how does even relate to MSP regaining or reasons it wont HNL service? To swing it back ill say thi
84 BoeingGuy : I don't see the correlation here. AA has dropped lots of routes that other carriers picked up and have been very successful with (SJC-OGG as one of m
85 slcdeltarumd11 : I am just saying Delta has lots of connection power it could use to fill seats. Hawiian would rely on people in MSP to fill the plane alone.
86 mesaflyguy : Actually, HA has many Asian connections it could offer. As well as Australia, New Zealand and other South Pacific destinations that they can connect
87 slcdeltarumd11 : Seriously what is the daily demand between MSP and south pacific destinations? Its not gonna fill a decent portion on an A330 is it?
88 Flighty : Depending on specifics (it being January) JFK-LHR could easily be less profitable, so that would affect DL, but yes, HAL is not going to fly JFK-LHR,
89 PassedV1 : I respect what all of you are saying with all of the statistical analysis, what the statistics miss though, is that it is only based on the current si
90 adamh8297 : Grand Forks - LAS and LHR-HNL are apples and oranges. G4 and BA have completely different business models. You can take a chance offerings bundled in
91 Pohakuloa : My turn to throw my observations/thoughts in to this fray and I'm sure will be quickly flamed thereafter. I will however stay more the to thread topic
92 toobz : Good luck to any airline that thinks they'll stay in that market very long. DL is about the only carrier that would start that route. HA would b nuts
93 Post contains links and images Transpac787 : Nice try. DEN landing fees range from $3.914 to $4.697 per 1,000# http://business.flydenver.com/info/r...rules/masters/120_fees_charges.pdf As is DEN
94 brilondon : You can get to HNL in one day though, you go through LAX, SEA, or SFO as well as through DFW on AA to HNL on a non-stop flight from London and take a
95 PassedV1 : It's not an entitlement, it's what consumers want, and one of the few "amenities" that they are willing to pay more for. I'm actually having a hard t
96 toobz : Consumers may want it, but they obviously aren't paying for it...what a shocker. If DL were to command the yield it needed on the route, they would be
97 Deltal1011man : This. Delta cut the route after moving some of it to DTW. What this says is Delta could find a better place to send the A330(which, during the winter
98 brilondon : I agree. Do you think that they should maybe push LHR with the partial buy out of VS and their connections through London that DL may not serve, alth
99 steex : I don't think it makes sense to front money for LHR service when DL is already flying MSP-LHR.
100 Flighty : We discussed that MSP wanted to do a major rebuilt that was (from what I can see) just a money spending exercise. The press I read on it was very ske
101 brilondon : I was responding to this comment: This statement was in response to my earlier statement that there is no business case to fund the HNL route that DL
102 steex : I did read your previous posts, that connection wasn't apparent to me. The suggestion of potentially funding FRA and ICN, both of which are routes DL
103 superjeff : HA needs the 717's for their core interisland service in Hawaii. Neither the NEO nor MAX will work for flights of a 100-200 mile stage length. They w
104 Post contains links iowaman : Just to add a little to the conversation about MSP and cost - the latest statistics for MSP show $2.42/1,000 pounds, which would be noticeably less t
105 UA787DEN : Doh! I read it was $16. No idea where. You win. I know DEN was higher by a lot 10-15 years ago. It looks like DEN will still have a higher cost per e
106 MSPNWA : This cannot be stressed enough. DL is the only major U.S. carrier to have significantly cut Hawaii capacity in the last 5 years. It's not been a impo
107 af773atmsp : Back in 2004 or 2005 the MAC was offering incentives to any foreign carrier to start flights to MSP (most likely intended towards BA to LHR, LH to FRA
108 LAXdude1023 : It could probably fill a plane, doesnt mean it will make a profit. HNL-Interior US is not a huge pot of gold.
109 PassedV1 : Dunkerly has stated in no uncertain terms that they are actively looking for a 717 replacement to come online in the 2017ish time frame. This stateme
110 azjubilee : You misheard. HAL is NOT actively looking at a 717 replacement. They are happy with the 717 for now and will eventually revisit the issue. You are on
111 brilondon : Those types of aircraft are not going to replace any aircraft in the current fleet. If you are thinking that the 717 would be replaced by the NEO or
112 Post contains images PassedV1 : I guess they are changing their way of thinking! [Edited 2013-01-08 03:13:52]
113 PassedV1 : Perhaps I misheard on the conference call, but a 717 replacement is in play now. Pilot LOA for the NEO has language covering a 717 replacement by an
114 drerx7 : It hasn't been found. The 717 replacement will be something along the lines of a C series or E190 type of aircraft. The economics of the 319/Neo...or
115 azjubilee : Again, "PassedV1" you are misinformed. The current events regarding NB airplanes at HAL is NOT 717 replacement. You are either misunderstanding the la
116 Deltal1011man : they should be pushing for FRA and/or ICN. HNL is a waste. (now, Don't get me wrong, any of the three, depending on how much money we are talking her
117 PassedV1 : I know the current events are not 717 replacement. I think we are just talking about different timelines. The 717 is going to be replaced, I don't th
118 brilondon : Yes, I did not think of that but when I was writing my prevous posts I was working from my hotel room in London and completely exhausted. The C-Liner
119 Post contains links prost : This map indicates that the A321NEO would be able to handle MSP-HNL: http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=msp-hnl&R=3650nm%40hnl%0D%0A&MS=wls&DU=n
120 toobz : Wow I certainly had no idea the NEO had THAT kind of ability!!!
121 azjubilee : PassedV1 - THere will naturally be inter island flying done to position these 321s for non HNL flying, much like the occasional 767 that flies HNL-OGG
122 PassedV1 : Yes, but there is an interveneing ammendable date, and these contracts are rengotiable at any point in time anyway. I think it's pretty clear we're i
123 MSPNWA : No, because of the demand. It's a special route for MSP. And why should the MAC care about airline financials? That's the airline's job. They're ther
124 azjubilee : PassedV1 - I guess we are on the same page. Only 2017-2020 is falling into place, where beyond 2020 is pure speculation at this point.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
EK First To Have Non-stop To All Continents posted Thu Sep 27 2007 18:47:07 by BigTom
SK To Start Non Stop CPH-SFO posted Wed Jul 4 2012 17:48:31 by haf
EK To Launch Non-stop DXB-EBB From DXB-ADD-EBB posted Wed Jan 18 2012 04:48:32 by Pe@rson
Why Did Delta Stop Non-stop Flights To AMM? posted Fri Nov 11 2011 20:58:26 by liftsifter
New AA Ads In NYC- Non-stop To RIO posted Sat Oct 23 2010 17:00:05 by VC10er
What Airline Flies USA To Osaka Non Stop? posted Mon Nov 23 2009 11:01:44 by Vulindlela744
ORD To HNL Non Stop posted Sun Oct 25 2009 23:50:58 by Rooinc
Emirates Non Stop To OZ On 77W posted Fri Jul 24 2009 00:46:44 by Britannia25
China Airlines To Fly To VIE Non-stop posted Tue Feb 10 2009 12:07:46 by LIPZ
Royal Brunei To Fly To AKL Non-stop posted Sat Jun 28 2008 11:20:03 by Fly2CHC