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New Frontier #40  
User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4396 posts, RR: 6
Posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 21294 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

As the last discussion was getting quite lengthy for some of our members on slow connections, please continue it here.

Previous thread:
New Frontier #39 (by mariner Oct 12 2012 in Civil Aviation)


Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
256 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 20802 times:

I suppose I'll break the thread #40 ice. For the non-email subscribers F9 is offering a decent fare sale from 59 destinations. Three of eighteen cities with exceptional fares stood out from BNA. I'm sure there are others.

BNA to SAN for $69 (the ocean)
BNA to PHX for $70 (the desert)
BNA to DEN for $78 (the snow)

Something for everybody I suppose. I didn't check; I suppose travel is valid in either direction



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7143 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 20738 times:

Quoting GentfromAlaska
Quoting enilria (Reply 246):
into treating DEN as a destination for small-town America flown 3 times per week. Two Chicagos and Seattles are pretty much what they offer now

Are you forgetting the four daily DEN-DCA?.


I think you are forgetting that F9 has never offered more than three daily DEN-DCA flights and cannot operate any more than three since they do not have operational authority for a 4th beyond perimeter slot pair.

Additionally, if they ever surrendered one of the DEN-DCA slots, a route that is artificially limited by regulations to allow F9 to have 75% of the service, I'd assume F9 was on the verge of shutdown. Any route where F9 is legally handed a 75% capacity share should be a no-brainer gold mine. I have no reason to think that DCA isn't. There is no other market where that is the case, however. It is the only market F9 flies from DEN where other carriers cannot enter and exit the market freely (FL/WN have entered Mexico routes without problem; slots can be acquired at LGA and we have seen WN add the market using acquired slots). BTW, F9 reduced from 4 to 2 DEN-LGA RTs almost exactly when WN entered the LGA market with 2 rts.

[Edited 2013-01-02 09:00:33]

[Edited 2013-01-02 09:01:44]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 20675 times:
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Given that "something" is likely to happen with separation later this year, I've been thinking of buying a few (more) RJET shares, just a small, fun amount.

I should have done so. RJET is presently up between16% and 18% today (and has been higher) on huge volume, easily establishing a new 52 week high at about $6.70.

The only "news" I can find is a note from Dahlman Rose reiterating its position, which gives some interesting numbers:

http://www.jagsreport.com/2013/01/re...g-reaffirmed-by-dahlman-rose-rjet/

"Republic Airways Holdings Stock Rating Reaffirmed by Dahlman Rose (RJET)

“Total unit revenue growth at Republic’s Frontier subsidiary is expected to increase by 5% y/y, up from prior guidance of up 4% y/y. Frontier non-fuel costs are expected to be down by 8%, compared to prior guidance of down 5%. As a result of higher revenues and lower costs, Frontier generated a profit margin of 2% to 3% in the quarter. The Republic Airways subsidiary is expected to report a pretax profit of $20 MM to $25MM, up from prior 4Q12 guidance of $15 MM to $20MM."


The share price is a bit too rich for me at the moment, even at a fun buy, but I imagine there'll be a bit of a pull back in the next couple of days - fingers crossed for it, anyway.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-02 10:34:14]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7143 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 20638 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 3):
I should have done so. RJET is presently up between16% and 18% today (and has been higher) on huge volume, easily establishing a new 52 week high at about $6.70.

A lot of stocks are popping on no news today. Fiscal Cliff driven says the analysts. Companies with a lot of risk are the ones that benefit the most perhaps...


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 20634 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
A lot of stocks are popping on no news today. Fiscal Cliff driven says the analysts. Companies with a lot of risk are the ones that benefit the most perhaps...

No other airline has double digit percentage gains. Allegiant, scarcely a "high risk" company, is highest at 3.2% as I write this.

What is more interesting - to me - are the numbers that Dahlman Rose gives.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-02 10:54:54]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1305 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 20565 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
A lot of stocks are popping on no news today. Fiscal Cliff driven says the analysts. Companies with a lot of risk are the ones that benefit the most perhaps...


RJET is far from high risk. However, it could be argued that RJET would currently not be profitable without F9. I personally believe Bedford doesn't want to get rid of F9, but he is forced to create some blue skies between RJET and F9 because of pilot contract integration issues. The only news that came out today, and what probably triggered the stock buy today, is the news from the analyst that Mariner quoted - “Total unit revenue growth at Republic’s Frontier subsidiary is expected to increase by 5% y/y, up from prior guidance of up 4% y/y. Frontier non-fuel costs are expected to be down by 8%, compared to prior guidance of down 5%. As a result of higher revenues and lower costs, Frontier generated a profit margin of 2% to 3% in the quarter. The Republic Airways subsidiary is expected to report a pretax profit of $20 MM to $25MM, up from prior 4Q12 guidance of $15 MM to $20MM."

ALGT 75.35 +1.94 (2.64%)
ALK 43.95 +0.86 (2.00%)
DAL 12.27 +0.40 (3.33%)
GLUX 2.00 +0.00 (0.00%)
HA 6.83 +0.26 (3.96%)
JBLU 5.91 +0.19 (3.32%)
LCC 13.91 +0.41 (3.04%)
LUV 10.40 +0.16 (1.56%)
RJET 6.69 +1.01 (17.78%)
SAVE 17.86 +0.13 (0.73%)
SKYW 12.72 +0.26 (2.09%)

I am concerned as we enter what is Frontier's historically weakest quarter, but I am happy to see the E190s leaving Frontier and moving to Caesars Entertainment. The E190 reliability has been horrible lately, so I am pleased to see that issue removed. E190 maintenance and crew issues have hurt Frontier's brand image the last few weeks. We've still got E190s scheduled to fly for F9 until September, but hopefully, those aircraft find a home sooner rather than later. Now, F9 needs to procure some A320s to grow a little or at least stop retrenching due to aircraft availability.



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineQuartz From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 34 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 20543 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 5):
Quoting enilria (Reply 4):A lot of stocks are popping on no news today. Fiscal Cliff driven says the analysts. Companies with a lot of risk are the ones that benefit the most perhaps...
No other airline has double digit percentage gains. Allegiant, scarcely a "high risk" company, is highest at 3.2% as I write this.

What is more interesting - to me - are the numbers that Dahlman Rose gives.

mariner

The stock is responding to an 8-K with company earnings guidance for Q4 2012 and full year 2013 released by RJET at 5pm on Dec 31 which can be accessed in the SEC section here:

http://www.republicairways.com/investorrelations.html

Hightlights:
Q4 2012 earning expected $0.30-$0.36 up from previous guidance of $0.18-$0.24
Unrestricted cash at YE 2012 up to $235mm from previous guidance of $210mm
Frontier Q4 operation margin 2%-3% up from previous guidance of 0%-2%

2013 consolidated EPS expected to be $1.35 to $1.90/share
$60mm unrestricted cash generated in 2013
Estimate include the fact that the Q400 contract will still be ramping up in 2013.

Republic's AMR contract extended by 18 months and repriced to current aircraft ownership economics.
Several RFP for contract flying are in the market which could cause earnings to increase.
Doesn't include potential one-time cost of signing a new labor agreement with Republic pilots.

As a shareholder, this is great news and confirms the ecomonics of the two brilliant restructurings. The reason for the +20% move in shares today is a combination of this good news and the panic buying of those holding 3.8 million shares currently held short. The shorts were no doubt encouraged by misplaced bankruptcy fears and Frontier-failure "convential wisdom" frequently posted on sites such as airliners.net. To those who promoted such dire predictions, I thank you for giving me and others the opportunity to buy at bargin prices! Happy New Year!!

[Edited 2013-01-02 11:52:16]

[Edited 2013-01-02 11:54:17]

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 20433 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
F9 has never offered more than three daily DEN-DCA flights

Fair enough someone mentioned F9 offered four daily DEN-DCA flights a few threads back. I accepted the statement as being factual. They may have been counting the DEN-MSN MSN-DCA as the fourth.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 20288 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 3):
I should have done so. RJET is presently up between16% and 18% today (and has been higher) on huge volume, easily establishing a new 52 week high at about $6.70.
Quoting mariner (Reply 5):
No other airline has double digit percentage gains.
Quoting enilria (Reply 4):
A lot of stocks are popping on no news today. Fiscal Cliff driven says the analysts.

There was some news Monday Dec 31 reported by the U.S. television biz media that AS and F9 are # 1 and 2 in a personal preference airline safety poll as being the two safest airlines operating in the U.S. I'm trying to find the article. I believe F9 still aligns under RJET which would explain the stock uptick.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineFutureFO From Ireland, joined Oct 2001, 3132 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20242 times:

F9 and RAH report as 2 different entities. If you look at the quarterly releases for financials.


I Don't know where I am anymore
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 20033 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 3):
I've been thinking of buying a few (more) RJET shares, just a small, fun amount.

The street must like something. RJET was up is up another 0.18 cents in mid morning trading Thursday..



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7143 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 20017 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 5):
No other airline has double digit percentage gains. Allegiant, scarcely a "high risk" company, is highest at 3.2% as I write this.

Allegiant does gain disproportionately from an increase in disposable income among the middle class...as a leisure carrier.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 8):
Fair enough someone mentioned F9 offered four daily DEN-DCA flights a few threads back.

Yes, they were probably counting an inside perimeter slot. I'm not even sure that stuff still exists, but DEN is 3.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 19955 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 12):
Allegiant does gain disproportionately from an increase in disposable income among the middle class...as a leisure carrier.

That isn't working for it - Allegiant - today.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-03 09:19:04]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinebahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1780 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 20 hours ago) and read 19669 times:

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 6):
The E190 reliability has been horrible lately, so I am pleased to see that issue removed. E190 maintenance and crew issues have hurt Frontier's brand image the last few weeks. We've still got E190s scheduled to fly for F9 until September, but hopefully, those aircraft find a home sooner rather than later. Now, F9 needs to procure some A320s to grow a little or at least stop retrenching due to aircraft availability.

The 190 reliability issue has got notghing to do with the airplane itself. Let me leave it at that. This, of course, is my opinion and my own observation only.



Earthbound misfit I
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7143 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 15 hours ago) and read 19575 times:

Quoting bahadir (Reply 14):
The 190 reliability issue has got notghing to do with the airplane itself. Let me leave it at that. This, of course, is my opinion and my own observation only.

I'd guess there is a wind-down of the parts inventory going on.

BTW, anybody else heard rumors that RJET will takeover Pinnacle from Delta shortly after they exit? It was just announced that Delta will own Pinnacle post-Ch11 because of their DIP financing, but DL has made it clear in the past they do not wish to own regionals any more. That seems to be at the root of the rumor. I guess TransStates could also "buy" them, but I think Skywest has too many eggs in the Delta basket already to be involved leaving only really RJET who always wants more Delta business and maybe TransStates.


User currently offlineBostonMike From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 19537 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 15):
BTW, anybody else heard rumors that RJET will takeover Pinnacle from Delta shortly after they exit?

Somehow the regionals have to find a way to be more in control of their own destinies. The legacies have merged their way into controlling certain hubs and restricting growth. But they still need to feed those hubs from smaller airport catchment areas. So maybe more mergers in the regional ranks will give them more power at the table. Hard to see how Delta would benefit from this other than not owning another regional.

The RAH pilots' contract was amenable in 2007 and they have been in and out of negotiations ever since. Right now RJET and its pilots (not Frontier) are meeting with a senior mediator from the NMB. The pilots have previously asked to be released but the previous mediator decided it wasn't time, yet.

It's all a guessing game to me.
RJET's stock has certainly had a bump in the last couple of days, but that may simply be the result of a positive earnings restatement for the fourth quarter of 2012.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7143 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 19506 times:

Quoting BostonMike (Reply 16):
Somehow the regionals have to find a way to be more in control of their own destinies.

I think what the legacies have done with buying and spinning off regionals is nearly fraud. Spinning off a company completely dependent upon you for revenue and then choking them to death a few years later after you count your IPO/sale cash seems illegal, but I guess you could just say investors are stupid.

I think where I'd start is that the legacy should always on the plane. It's just crazy to buy a 20 year airplane for a 5 year contract.

Quoting BostonMike (Reply 16):
Hard to see how Delta would benefit from this other than not owning another regional.

That's the reason. Delta doesn't want to own a regional. There are also labor implications. Delta's own union issues are eased by making these regionals completely separate.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 13 hours ago) and read 19461 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 9):
There was some news Monday Dec 31 reported by the U.S. television biz media that AS and F9 are # 1 and 2 in a personal preference airline safety poll as being the two safest airlines operating in the U.S. I'm trying to find the article.

Here you go, here's one of the articles about it:

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2013/01/02/rudest-airlines.html

"Rudest airlines? United's naughty, Frontier's nice

Two of Denver International Airport%u2019s biggest carriers rank at the opposite ends of a new survey on rude airline employees by Airfarewatchdog.com."


It's fun, but not a lot more than that. "Likeability" doesn't seem to affect how some airlines do - viz Ryanair.

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 6):
I am concerned as we enter what is Frontier's historically weakest quarter, but I am happy to see the E190s leaving Frontier and moving to Caesars Entertainment.

  

I suppose the departure of the E190's will be the most visible sign of separation yet, at least to a.net, and Q1 2013, this quarter, was always going to be the most interesting quarter in this complex - and extraordinary - restructure.

I'm not expecting a profit in this quarter. The airline is still carrying un-separated baggage and fuel is up again, but break-even or a modest loss would be, in itself, an achievement.

And while I agree about more A320's, I'd rather see profit before growth.

Meanwhile the RJET stock price is still at the races, presently at a two year high.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-04 11:00:40]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 13 hours ago) and read 19418 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
I think what the legacies have done with buying and spinning off regionals is nearly fraud. Spinning off a company completely dependent upon you for revenue and then choking them to death a few years later after you count your IPO/sale cash seems illegal, but I guess you could just say investors are stupid.

The answer is that investors are naive (or stupid), but I would not call it anything close to fraud by the legacies. These spinoffs are in full disclosure. Only foolish investors would be willing to invest money in a company (in this case regional carriers) that receives 100% of their total revenue from 1 or 2 customers (in this case legacy carriers).


User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1321 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 12 hours ago) and read 19389 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 15):
BTW, anybody else heard rumors that RJET will takeover Pinnacle from Delta shortly after they exit? It was just announced that Delta will own Pinnacle post-Ch11 because of their DIP financing, but DL has made it clear in the past they do not wish to own regionals any more.

Other than from you, I have not heard it anywhere. That said, it is quite possible.

Concerns:
Bombardier fleet
Staff issues
Financing
Future contracts

IMO, the Bombardier fleet is not a concern. Pinnacle's plan is to exit bankruptcy with 81 CRJ900s. This is a sufficiently large fleet, and in Republic's case, joins a fleet of 32 Q400s (whatever that would be worth). Additionally, the engines on the CRJ900s should be similar enough to those on the E-Jets. (they both use CF34s if I recall) The fleet plan at Pinnacle fits in line with that of Republic as well. Pinnacle will, untimatey, not add unprofitable 50 seat flying. Such a deal would further Republic's position in providing 70+ seat lift.

Financing the deal could be a sticking point. If DL works a deal with RAH similar to that of what they worked with Trans States with the Compass deal. A lot will depend on the price of Pinnacle exiting Chapter 11.

The biggest concern could be staff issues at RAH. They have been working for some time to work out a contract with their pilots. This needs to happen, and even more so if Pinnacle is added to the mix. If Pinnacle is added prior to RJET having a pilot contract, then more integration issues could arise.

One concern for me is if such a deal were to occur, it could tie RAH up to the point where they could be limited in their ability to compete with the other regionals for new contracts at United and American. Those have potentially huge contracts coming likely this year. RAH needs to make sure they are in a position to make a play for those deals.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 19343 times:
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TTN Trivia Department:

In September (before Frontier) it was announced that The Runway Restaurant at Trenton Airport had fallen on evil financial times, it couldn't pay the rent, and its lease was in jeopardy:

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...renton-mercer_airports_runway.html

"Trenton-Mercer Airport's Runway restaurant could lose its lease"

The axe has fallen and the restaurant has closed:

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...nton-mercer_airports_runway_1.html

"Trenton-Mercer Airport's Runway restaurant closes up shop"

Given how much the restaurant owed, it is completely unsurprising. More than that, it was a full-service, up-market menu, almost fine dining, when I guess it needed burgers. Originally, there was some suggestion that the airport would look for a new tenant, but that doesn't appear to have happened (yet?) and I guess the space could be used for other things.

However, tucked away is the following:

"Frontier Airlines began flying out of the Ewing airport in November, offering cheap flights to Orlando, Fla. The Denver company has already announced it will expand service to Tampa, Fort Lauderdale and Fort Myers, Fla. and to New Orleans. The company said yesterday it will make another announcement on expanded service on Monday but did not provide further details"

That last sentence is the intriguing one - although, as always, I'll believe it when and if it happens.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-04 13:13:02]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 19334 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 18):
Here you go, here's one of the articles about it:

Thank you Mariner; that may or may not be it. It was reported on Fox Business News. I only caught bits and pieces of the story and remember it having to do with safety with F9 and AS. But maybe not!

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2013/01/02/rudest-airlines.html This appears to be DEN-centric and although F9 AS are mentioned UA was not in the story I was thinking about. Keep up the good work F9 and from my own backyard AS.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 6 hours ago) and read 19195 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
Given how much the restaurant owed, it is completely unsurprising. More than that, it was a full-service, up-market menu, almost fine dining, when I guess it needed burgers. Originally, there was some suggestion that the airport would look for a new tenant, but that doesn't appear to have happened (yet?) and I guess the space could be used for other things.

I didn't read the article so forgive me if it mentions that the restaurant had been closed since the Hurricane also, as the roof was heavily damaged. I wonder if the combination of having to rebuild, past due rent etc forced the closure.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 6 hours ago) and read 19182 times:
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Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 23):
I didn't read the article so forgive me if it mentions that the restaurant had been closed since the Hurricane also, as the roof was heavily damaged. I wonder if the combination of having to rebuild, past due rent etc forced the closure.

The hurricane maybe didn't help, but as noted, the Freeholders were voting to cancel the lease as long ago as September 27 - before the hurricane and before Frontier started service at TTN.

More recently (December 13), the Freeholders voted for emergency funds to facilitate the roof repairs.

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...roof_repair_at_trenton-mercer.html

"The freeholder board approved the additional $45,000 and the estimated $1 million bill that was presented to them at a meeting earlier this week with no opposition.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1305 posts, RR: 12
Reply 25, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 19052 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
The company said yesterday it will make another announcement on expanded service on Monday but did not provide further details"

Could see DEN-TTN being announced as seasonal service starting in May. Also wouldn't be surprised if that replaced either RSW or MSY once the peak seasons for those two markets ends.


User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 309 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 19033 times:

For God's sake can F9 add a few flights from IAH. I work at gates 29 and 27 and they leave from gate 30 at IAH terminal A. Ever since they came back I cannot remember a SINGLE occasion where the gate agent has not said her usually announcement of "This will be a completely full flight and overhead bin space will be limited. If you would like to tag your bag to its final destination see me at the podium."

They could easily have 4 flights a day by the sound of it.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18980 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 25):
Could see DEN-TTN being announced as seasonal service

That would make the most sense.

I got curious and started searching for any type of flyer polls which may have been conducted by TTN to gauge where Trenton wants to fly to. It is my understanding most airports keep this types of data.

According to the RITA data as of September 2012 ACY, (Atlantic City) BED (Bedford MA) and HPN are the three most popular destination airports from TTN TTN&Airport_Name=Trenton,%20NJ:%20Trenton%20Mercer&carrier=FACTS" target="_blank">http://www.transtats.bts.gov/airport...:%20Trenton%20Mercer&carrier=FACTS Of course that will change as the F9 stats start flowing in. This is why I mentioned a potential partnership with 9K out of TTN if it is doable.

I noticed there is/was quite a bit of military heritage around Trenton including a bombing squadron from yesteryear. Citing the TTN-BED stat above BED if memory serves me is or is near Hanscom AFB Mass.

Additionally the more than 400% uptick in flights at TTN year over year from 2011 to 2012 caught my eye also. That is significant for a general aviation airport.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1982 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 18826 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
Given how much the restaurant owed, it is completely unsurprising. More than that, it was a full-service, up-market menu, almost fine dining, when I guess it needed burgers

Their lunch menu was pretty good in that regard, with Burgers, Sandwiches and Pasta for reasonable prices. They could have just added a few dinner items and it would have worked fine. Though prior to Frontiers entrance they didn't have much in the way of commerical passengers just the private jet types with like 2 flights from Streamline a day.

http://therunwayonline.com/lunch_menu.html

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 25):

Could see DEN-TTN being announced as seasonal service starting in May. Also wouldn't be surprised if that replaced either RSW or MSY once the peak seasons for those two markets ends.

That could work possibly especially with their discontination of the DEN-PHL route, some of their PHL travelers who live in Philly's Northern Suburbs and parts of Jersey could help. My hope is that they would do 4x-5x/weekly in the summer (when supposedly they were doing very well on the DEN-PHL route) and then maybe 2x-3x in the winter.

I have a SLC trip coming up in August, I would definately consider doing TTN-DEN-SLC. Plus we'll see how I like using TTN later this month when I do TTN-MCO.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 29, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 18647 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 25):
Could see DEN-TTN being announced as seasonal service starting in May. Also wouldn't be surprised if that replaced either RSW or MSY once the peak seasons for those two markets ends.

I guess DEN is the obvious one, but, as I said, I'm not technical. Because of the runway, I don't know if it is possible or what the payload hit might be - or even if there would be a payload hit.

And I don't know about RSW/MSY. Two of the pillars of the restructure are lower frequency and seasonality, and I'm not sure why anyone would go to RSW or MSY in July/August.

Or Florida generally. I remember being in a very expensive restaurant in New York in August and someone talked about going to Miami the next week. The reply was a shocked "at this time of year?"

But people do go, so I don't know. Equally, I don't know if the benefits of nursing those routes through the summer heat (if they need it) would outweigh the benefits of dropping them for a few weeks.

It's what intrigues me about TTN. Frontier has cleared the first hurdle - will folk use it at all? And, based on present bookings, seems to have cleared the second hurdle - will they use it to anywhere other than MCO?

The next hurdle, I guess, is how much will TTN folk use it, how often and to where. There is very little precedent for what may happen at TTN.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 18630 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 28):
Their lunch menu was pretty good in that regard, with Burgers, Sandwiches and Pasta for reasonable prices.

Juneau (JNU) Alaska has a like restaurant in their airport which is probably the size of TTN which catered to fliers. They brought in a new sheriff who started marketing it to the locals with free validated parking.

As stated Hurricane Sandy was probably the final straw for TTN. You would think TTN would have done the same with its free parking. Patronage in JNU was said to have doubled. It was amazing how many people started using it with just the free parking perk and how many didn't know the restaurant existed. Having the freshest salmon and halibut also helped.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1982 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 18508 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 29):
Or Florida generally. I remember being in a very expensive restaurant in New York in August and someone talked about going to Miami the next week. The reply was a shocked "at this time of year?"

Florida in the summer is popular with families because the kids have an extended period of time off and Disney is down there. Most places have pools and theres always the beach if the kids need to cool off. Plus better deals then lets say Christmas because there is more than just a 1-2 week window to travel. Would I go to FL in summer no but I get the whole year to choose when to take time off, families do not.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7143 posts, RR: 13
Reply 32, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 18412 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 19):
The answer is that investors are naive (or stupid), but I would not call it anything close to fraud by the legacies. These spinoffs are in full disclosure.

The service contract between the carriers is never fully disclosed, so I think that is where the potential illegality is located.

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 20):
Financing the deal could be a sticking point.

I think PBCL will be basically free. DL owns the planes. No other real assets.

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
The company said yesterday it will make another announcement on expanded service on Monday but did not provide further details"

That last sentence is the intriguing one - although, as always, I'll believe it when and if it happens.
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 27):
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 25):
Could see DEN-TTN being announced as seasonal service

That would make the most sense.

I think they will announce that they will double their operations there. How long it survives is the question mark. I hope for the best, but the track record worries me a lot. The geography of TTN is very interesting, but it's hard to communicate that in markets that aren't Trenton outbound like Florida. I think they have expended their leisure options with the current network, so this next round is going to be more VFR/business markets along the lines of a COS-LAX. Those will be harder. We'll see...


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 33, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 18364 times:
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Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 31):
Would I go to FL in summer no but I get the whole year to choose when to take time off, families do not.

I would probably avoid it, although I admit I did go to Miami once in July, for a few days, on my way to Puerto Rico. It was hot and oppressive, but not more than I've experienced in other places. I haven't experienced August in Florida.

Assuming there is growth at TTN - and it isn't a given - I assume Frontier will maintain this leisure focus. I wonder if TTN-PBI will ever appear on the route map, and I assume that even DEN - if it can happen - would be (mostly) leisure, and some of that on the way to LAS, etc.

There's also the question of BOS - a couple of airlines have tried to make that work from TTN, and I guess it could - for leisure, seasonal, Summer/Fall. BUF or IAG? That assumes Niagara is still good for summer, but it's a long time since I've been there.

The runway length may affect anything much further south than Florida. I guess SJU or STT or PUJ would be out (but if DEN why not?) but MYR and NAS are easily possible. I wonder - I don't know - if Apple has any interest, they do quite a lot of business in Nassau and Princeton might be pleased, given its at least conceptual links.  

The big problem is that at some point, I guess the Nimbys will start to make their voices heard, so I am not expecting TTN to become anything too big.

But, like so much of what is happening such as the rigid discipline with the fleet, TTN is already what I have long hoped Frontier would be. It's the question that has dogged Frontier since I first became aware of the airline - the "other hub" - and the answer may be that there isn't one, there isn't another DEN, just several smaller opportunities.

So I'm hoping Frontier doesn't throw too much at TTN too soon. In my world, less can often be very much more.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1982 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 18276 times:
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This is wierd, if the paper is correct and there is a TTN expansion why is F9 offering 3X miles on TTN routes

TTN-FLL,TTN-RSW,TTN-MCO: TTN-TPA,TTN-MSY

http://www.flyfrontier.com/frequent-.../member-offers/

Rules for FLL (others are the same)
This promotion is open to all EarlyReturns members who register for the promotion prior to qualifying flight activity. Members must register online at FlyFrontier.com/memberoffers, using promo code TPFLL. Bonus mileage offer is valid for all qualifying Frontier Airlines flights between Princeton/Trenton, NJ, and Ft. Lauderdale, FL, January 31, 2013, through February 28, 2013. Members must fly on published fare tickets and request to earn EarlyReturns miles to qualify for the triple miles. Classic or Classic Plus fares will also earn triple miles on the base flight miles flown. Bonus miles do not count toward elite status. This promotion may not be combined with any other mileage promotion and is offered in conjunction with all program rules and procedures. Additional restrictions may apply. Frontier Airlines is the final authority on the interpretation of these rules.

BTW: I missed out on half the miles as I leave on January 28th and return on February 3rd.

[Edited 2013-01-06 21:54:21]

[Edited 2013-01-06 21:55:05]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 35, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 18253 times:
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Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 34):

This is wierd, if the paper is correct and there is a TTN expansion why is F9 offering 3X miles on TTN routes

To encourage Trenton folk to join Early Returns. The more members they have, the more likely those members are to fly Frontier - perhaps on other routes.

They are certainly trying to make a splash there. They're doing a number of things to endear themselves to Trenton and make themselves known - advertising even, which is unusual for Frontier.

They have, it seems, learned from past mistakes.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-06 22:33:11]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1305 posts, RR: 12
Reply 36, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18225 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):
TTN is already what I have long hoped Frontier would be. It's the question that has dogged Frontier since I first became aware of the airline - the "other hub" - and the answer may be that there isn't one, there isn't another DEN, just several smaller opportunities.

IMO, It still remains to be seen whether TTN is actually profitable. I do think DEN-TTN could work (although I think DEN-ABE would've garnered worked better). I do believe they are doing the right thing by advertising and actually making themselves known, but let's not forget, they expanded COS (after they announced PDX/SEA) to MCO & SAN, and now all all four are gone come March. So just because they are expanding TTN, doesn't mean we should all believe its not in the red as of now.

While you believe otherwise, I think all the eggs in one basket seems to be their best bet. DEN is what works for them. They've invested several aircraft into COS/MCO/TTN. At the end of the day, what would've made more money for them? DEN + 2 small hubs or just a stronger DEN. That's the question that no one on here can actually answer.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 37, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18213 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 36):
IMO, It still remains to be seen whether TTN is actually profitable.

Surely, that's true.

Even if every flight out of TTN proves to be profitable (which is unlikely), I doubt that TTN itself will be for some time, because of the amount of money they're spending on it, which has to be recouped.

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 36):
So just because they are expanding TTN, doesn't mean we should all believe its not in the red as of now.

I don't who's claiming that it is profitable - see above.

And I don't know that they will be expanding TTN - it's just one sentence in a local paper. As I said, I'll believe it if it happens. Until then, it is just speculation.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1305 posts, RR: 12
Reply 38, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18194 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 37):
I don't know who's claiming that it is profitable - see above.

I should correct myself. No one is claiming that as of now. I guess I'm just no where near as excited to see the recent expansion there as others seem. Considering F9 is losing airplanes, I'm just not sure that reducing DEN flying to subsidize the TTN/MCO flying is the right path to take.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 39, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 18212 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 38):
Considering F9 is losing airplanes, I'm just not sure that reducing DEN flying to subsidize the TTN/MCO flying is the right path to take.

That's not a debate for me - there are too many polarized opinions. Many a.netters believe that Frontier cannot possibly survive at DEN, that DEN can't support three hubbing airlines.

I don't agree with that. I believe Frontier can survive at DEN (and appears to be doing so) but not if it just flies the same routes as everyone else.

Certainly, Jeff Potter thought that DEN was the answer, which is why his attempts to break out were so misjudged and half-hearted.

Sean Menke believed that there had to be more to Frontier than DEN - but DEN had to be profitable first. Silent Siegel has mostly been silent on it but what he has said - and with which I entirely agree - is that Frontier doesn't do enough (winter) north/south flying, which is partly why it has always done so poorly in the winter.

And since north/south options are more limited from DEN, it has to be somewhere else. Hopefully, TTN, a unique and special case, but, looking ahead, there may be one or two others.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1982 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 18186 times:
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I know that this is in no way scientific (far from it actually) but I used seat maps for all of the TTN-MCO flights in January and February (only in that direction because the one direction was time consuming enough) and figured out an rough approximation of the loads.

TTN-MCO January is approximately an average of 73% sold
TTN-MCO February is approximately an average of 57% sold (keeping in mind they have more time to sell the flights then January)

Some flights of note were 2/5/13 with only 38% of seats filled and 2/15/13 with a huge 87% of seats filled (not surprising with it being Presidents day weekend). Now I realize that 3rd party reservations such as those booked with Travelocity and Expedia are assigned at check-in but I think a bulk of these tickets are purchased thru flyfrontier.com because of the advertising. All this being said, they seemed to be offering alot of lower fares perhaps in a attempt to have more people try TTN, altough there are some days that are expensive. Bottom line is we don't know, hopefully we will get offical load numbers in the next few months to see how they ended up and of course we will have to see what the announcement will be later this morning (if the TofT is accurate)



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7143 posts, RR: 13
Reply 41, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 18106 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 37):
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 36):
IMO, It still remains to be seen whether TTN is actually profitable.

Surely, that's true.

It just started. They wouldn't really know until they have seen all the seasons. Even if Winter is decent, that doesn't mean it's a profitable market. Plus, Winter Florida routes have little bearing on what they are adding. They are jumping into the unknown. They did the same thing in COS and LAX and LAX and MEM and... Hope it works better.

Expect DL to add TTN-ATL.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 18015 times:

Here is the new TTN service announcement http://media.flyfrontier.com/article....cfm?article_id=5418&view_id=1290&


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 43, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 17975 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 42):
Here is the new TTN service announcement http://media.flyfrontier.com/article...1290&

I guess they didn't take my advice - LOL.

I like MDW very much. And maybe DTW. I'm okay about ATL but I hoped they talked to Delta. RDU/CMH - I guess they know something I don't.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 40):
I know that this is in no way scientific (far from it actually) but I used seat maps for all of the TTN-MCO flights in January and February (only in that direction because the one direction was time consuming enough) and figured out an rough approximation of the loads.

Just as a heads up, the seat maps are completely unreliable. Frontier fudges them deliberately, especially at TTN, to prevent people from doing exactly what you just tried to do.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1305 posts, RR: 12
Reply 44, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 17843 times:

Well I guess we know where the MCO flying is going. MCO-MKE/MSN/ABE/SHD/OMA(all but once a week) ends on 07Apr13. he extra airplane from that will start the new TTN routes on 08Apr13.

TTN-CMH is very surprising to me. Best of luck to them on these new routes. Might just be a glitch as of now, but one can't connect in MDW to get to DEN even though it's the same airplane. (I'm assuming TTN-DEN would've taken too much of a payload hit or they would've announced that.) Also, if they're going to try and build up TTN, then I'd like to at least see them add BOS. It would help RDU/MSY/Florida markets with some flow traffic.


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5076 posts, RR: 21
Reply 45, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 17780 times:

I called that on TTN-MDW and was dissed for it...so be it


Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 46, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 17741 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 43):
I like MDW very much. And maybe DTW. I'm okay about ATL

Outside of TTN being a P2P focus city I wonder what if anything connects the new cities to TTN I thought Chi-town was a given when I posted my where does TTN want to fly post a couple of nights ago. How could Chi-town not be in the grander scheme of things. F9 has obviously found a under served niche between PHL and NYC.

Yesteryear TTN area use to have a significant footprint in textile industry. As far as DTW the car manufacturing is making a slow comeback. Much of that moved south. The only two things I can think of which tie Princeton and the greater RDU area is they are significant college towns. Like you CMH and TTN stump me. A stretch might be a tie in with energy (coal) and or possibly steel. They obviously know something about ATL we don't with six day a week service.

Also of notable mention http://njtoday.net/2012/08/31/senato...ng-to-improve-new-jersey-airports/ 18.6 Million dollars earmarked for 5 NJ airports with 13 Million going to TTN. You almost have to think TTN is being groomed to become the fifth greater NYC airport behind JFK, LGA, EWR, ISP.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 47, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 17734 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 46):
Also of notable mention http://njtoday.net/2012/08/31/senato...ng-to-improve-new-jersey-airports/ 18.6 Million dollars earmarked for 5 NJ airports with 13 Million going to TTN. You almost have to think TTN is being groomed to become the fifth greater NYC airport behind JFK, LGA, EWR, ISP.

Sorry, Gent, no. Or - not in the immediate future, anyway.

While there have been plans to expand (or rebuild) the terminal. the airport gives a public commitment that they aren't planning to lengthen the runway:

http://nj.gov/counties/mercer/departments/airport/faqs.html

"Is the airport expanding?

No. TTN is proposing to replace our functionally obsolete two gate terminal with a new, modern two gate facility.

We will not be lengthening any runways. We are improving the airport, not expanding it.


The $13 million was a safety feature - an EMAS system at the end of the runway:

http://nj.gov/counties/mercer/news/releases/approved/120927.html

"Mercer County Executive Brian M. Hughes today announced the completion of the installation of Engineered Material Arresting System (EMAS) beds at the ends of Runway 16-34 at Trenton-Mercer Airport. The installation was made possible with a $13.4 million grant from the Federal Aviation Administration, and a $353,000 grant from the New Jersey Department of Transportation.

The beds are made of lightweight, crushable concrete blocks constructed at the ends of the runways that are designed to entrap an aircraft that has overrun the runway with little or no damage to the aircraft, and most importantly, no major injuries to passengers, crew, or bystanders."


I suspect that if all goes well with Frontier - and if the Nimbys don't kick up too much of a stink - they might lengthen the runway by 300 or 400 feet (or the length of the EMAS) as another "safety feature."

But thaty could be wishful thinking on my part.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 17669 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 47):
We are improving the airport, not expanding it.

I think the above was more my thought process. I read about TTN 13 Million EMAS (safety zone extension) upgrade but also tied in that any residual funding would be earmarked toward terminal improvements; but maybe not.

JNU received a federal earmark for a EMAS upgrade mid 20XX decade which the FAA estimated would cost 14 million. When all was said and done I want to say it came in at 10 million and that was working through a tide-lands water fowl sanctuary/area. There was some extra fluff which to my understanding was reprogrammed to go toward airport improvements.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 49, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 17635 times:
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I posted this in the other thread, but I should probably post it here. To give it some background, Robert Ashcorft is the Senior VP Finance at frontier. The other one - the one who wrote the piece about TTN - is Anthony Tangorra, more about him after the link.

It's a view of TTN, written when Frontier has just started service, a sort of "Why TTN?":

http://www.theairlinezone.com/2012/11/trenton-airport/

"“There are a handful of commercially certified airports that are not currently served around the United States that the major airlines have overlooked or avoided for various reasons. In some cases, these airports have large populations that would be willing to use them if there was adequate commercial service. Serving the populations around some of these airport opportunities should not necessarily be defined as serving-the-under-served; but as better-serving-the-inconvenienced. These inconvenienced population centers have adequate service within a +/- 60 minute driving distance, but would prefer a closer-in option for air travel if the service was offered."

It ends with:

"Frontier has not yet announced service sufficient to meet the three criteria described in the preceding paragraph, but the company has hinted in their press conferences that they may be on the way to doing so. If they do, then we should expect this to be a win-win for Frontier, the people surrounding TTN, and also a win perhaps for other markets like TTN that may see similar service after this experiment proves successful.”

Anthony Tangorrra is peripherally involved in airlines, or rather, airports. He has a company called Airspace Lounge, which opened at BWI a couple of years ago:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...408_1_concourse-lounge-concept-bwi

"Promising to redefine the airport experience for the flying public, Airspace Lounge is opening its doors in May at Baltimore-Washington International Thurgood Marshall Airport.

Located at BWI's Concourse D, Airspace Lounge will provide customers a place to relax and work near their gate. For a day pass starting at $17.50 and topping out at $40 — the price rises as the lounge fills up — the facility will offer passengers with tickets on any airline the opportunity to enjoy a comfortable facility with complimentary food, coffee, soft drinks, wireless Internet, computers and access to a cash bar.


I've no idea how well it's doing and I don't expect such a lounge at TTN. I very much doubt there is enough traffic.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2041 posts, RR: 8
Reply 50, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 17576 times:

Why do some many people bash Frontier?? If they find something that works who cares. They are looking for summer travel vs winter. More folks come to Florida in the winter then summer. We are getting alot of folks from South America these days then from Europe.

If F9 loses money you complain, but when they move flights around to make money you complain. No one complains about WN doing the same thing or any other airline.



Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 51, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 17563 times:
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Qouting sunking737 (Reply 50)

Why do some many people bash Frontier?? If they find something that works who cares. They are looking for summer travel vs winter. More folks come to Florida in the winter then summer. We are getting alot of folks from South America these days then from Europe.

If F9 loses money you complain, but when they move flights around to make money you complain. No one complains about WN doing the same thing or any other airline.

SBN-DEN seems to be doing OK. The flights I'm taking to SBN from DEN and back later this month are booked solid.
and the Frontier bashers claimed that this type of flying wouldn't work. Frankly I don't even think F9 is touching the subsidy money yet for this. Also DGS a Delta subsidiary is running the ground servicing for Frontier at SBN so it's good for everybody.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 52, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 17471 times:
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Quoting sunking737 (Reply 50):
They are looking for summer travel vs winter

Yes.

I feel stupid - and I'm eating humble pie - because I hadn't seen Trenton as a leisure destination. But it may be.

Up until now, all the TTN routes have been about taking leisure pax from TTN. I think this is about taking leisure pax to TTN, to take advantage of TTN's unique - and underserved - position.

TTN is not too far from Manhattan, a huge leisure destination for Frontier in summer. It's even closer to PHL, which was also big for Frontier - in summer. It's a hop, skip and a jump from Atlantic City and nearby Princeton draws at least some tourism.

For a family of four in, say, RDU, a lower fare to this "epicentre" of tourist activity might be very attractive. If there's a bit of biz travel thrown in, that's a bonus, but not the core.

So even though Frontier hasn't described these routes as seasonal, I think some of them (or the number of frequencies), may be so.

This is the summer schedule. I don't know what happens next winter.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 53, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 17268 times:
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Despite the TTN announcement, I think we have to assume that it isn'tt the last word for spring, at least for "western" Frontier.

MSO is hopeful - as are eight others:

http://missoulian.com/news/local/mis...8-5a06-11e2-919a-0019bb2963f4.html

"Missoula makes short list for low-cost service by Frontier Airlines

Missoula International Airport is on a short list of destinations Frontier Airlines is considering for new spring service, and Missoula Economic Partnership president James Grunke hopes a “very competitive” incentive package offered to the low-cost carrier will help the city make the final cut.

Grunke knows of eight other cities across the country Frontier is looking at as new service spots and expects the airline will make a decision on finalists in the coming weeks."


mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1305 posts, RR: 12
Reply 54, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 17234 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 53):

MSO is hopeful - as are eight others:

http://missoulian.com/news/local/mis...8-5a06-11e2-919a-0019bb2963f4.html

"Missoula makes short list for low-cost service by Frontier Airlines

Missoula International Airport is on a short list of destinations Frontier Airlines is considering for new spring service, and Missoula Economic Partnership president James Grunke hopes a “very competitive” incentive package offered to the low-cost carrier will help the city make the final cut.

Grunke knows of eight other cities across the country Frontier is looking at as new service spots and expects the airline will make a decision on finalists in the coming weeks."

I think MSO will get F9 service this year. F9 seemed to have great success at GTF last summer. It also sounds like MSO would give them a revenue guarantee as well. With there new strategy, one aircraft could easily be used to expand service to 4 new destinations.

I believe STS, RST, and TOL all have SCASD grant money for DEN service. I could see one of those four cities being added. I'm still holding out hope that they'll start DEN-JNU service this summer.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 55, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 17216 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 54):
I believe STS, RST, and TOL all have SCASD grant money for DEN service.

Sadly, I don't think it will be STS. The runway lengthening project has been delayed by nine months:

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20120730/ARTICLES/207301008

"The lengthening of runways at the Charles M. Schulz-Sonoma County Airport has been delayed at least nine months by federal environmental requirements.

The delay is expected to slow talks with commercial carriers about adding flights at the airport.

However, carriers interested in bringing mid-size regional jets to the area, including Delta, US Airways, Frontier and Sky West, are largely holding off on serious discussions until the longer runways are complete, said Jon Stout, airport manager.

"It's disappointing that in effect we're losing a year," said Jonathan Coe, president and chief executive of the Santa Rosa Chamber of Commerce."


DEN-STS is a I would love to see.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2001 posts, RR: 13
Reply 56, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 17096 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 54):
I believe STS, RST, and TOL all have SCASD grant money for DEN service. I could see one of those four cities being added.

Frontier has no desire to run TOL-DEN. Won't see that happen.


User currently offlinemcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 808 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 17043 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 53):

Despite the TTN announcement, I think we have to assume that it isn'tt the last word for spring, at least for "western" Frontier.

MSO is hopeful - as are eight others:

http://missoulian.com/news/local/mis...8-5a06-11e2-919a-0019bb2963f4.html

"Missoula makes short list for low-cost service by Frontier Airlines

You beat me to it, nicely done. I've been flying to MSO multiple times per year and I know introduction of service by F9 would significantly lower fares. BZN is always $100 cheaper than MSO from Denver and it's simply because two airlines serve the market.


User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4396 posts, RR: 6
Reply 58, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 16991 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 54):
I believe STS, RST, and TOL all have SCASD grant money for DEN service.

A little background on RST (Rochester, Minnesota) for anyone who is interested.

If F9 were to launch DEN-RST it will be interesting to follow. RST has long suffered from leakage to MSP as it's only an hour to hour and a half drive. I haven't flown out of RST in a few years but last time I was there it was a great facility. Easy interstate access, free wi-fi, and only six gates (four of which have jetways). There is a small bar and grill, a Mayo Clinic help desk (Mayo Clinic/hospital a huge draw for Rochester), and five car rental options (Avis, Enterprise, Hertz, Budget, National). The parking is a bit expensive for a small airport at $7 a day (more than CID for example, which comparatively speaking is much busier). Fares have always seemed expensive out of RST at least for my travels, so maybe F9 could support DEN-RST with a SCASD grant in the beginning if the fares are priced well (F9 usually does a great job at keeping prices low).

As far as air service goes, RST currently has:

4x ORD AA Eagle/Chautauqua ERJ's
4x MSP Pinnacle/Skywest CRJ's
2x weekly IWA G4 MD-80's (recently launched last Fall)

RST has seen a few routes come and go over the years though:

DTW (NW flew this for years and it was generally 1x CRJ from the morning DTW bank).
LAS (G4 flew this with an MD83 between 2007 and 2010. Service was mostly 2x weekly).
DFW (AA ran this starting in 2005 but it didn't last long IIRC).

Also FWIW NW ran DC-9's into RST several years ago along with Avro's from MSP. Of course this was before capacity discipline was in place and the merger was even thought about.

[Edited 2013-01-09 09:44:17]


Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 59, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 16971 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 53):
MSO is hopeful - as are eight others:

I'm wondering who the "eight others" are.  

I posted this in the TTN thread, but it's Cranky Flier on Frontier and TTN, and it's extremely positive, so I'm bringing it home:

http://crankyflier.com/2013/01/08/fr...sees-in-trenton-adds-more-flights/

"Frontier Likes What It Sees in Trenton, Adds More Flights

Let’s be honest. There’s nothing special about Trenton itself other than the fact that it has a well-located airport that’s cheap to use. In fact, Frontier doesn’t even call the airport Trenton – it calls it Princeton/Trenton and has it show up under both Newark area and Philadelphia area airports on its website.

That is the magic of Trenton."


He ends with this:

"This is about getting friends and family back and forth to visit each other. Or its about the college kid going to visit Philly on a very tight budget. These are people who might drive today because the cost and time involved with a flight from Newark or Philly is prohibitive. It’s not about taking traffic from the other airports but rather it’s about stimulating new traffic in the ultra-price sensitive category.

Considering the expansion we’ve seen so far, it sounds like people are responding to the new service. I would imagine we’re going to see this get a lot bigger. Not every route will work, but Frontier has tapped into a real opportunity here."


mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 60, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 16889 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 59):
I'm wondering who the "eight others" are.

Do we know of eight cities which could potentially fill an A319. RDM fits the ULCC model. Maybe PDX-RDM-MSO-PDX. The RDM-MSO segment would connect two U.S. Forest Service wildfire training centers and staging bases.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1305 posts, RR: 12
Reply 61, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 16765 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 60):
Quoting mariner (Reply 59):
I'm wondering who the "eight others" are.

Do we know of eight cities which could potentially fill an A319. RDM fits the ULCC model. Maybe PDX-RDM-MSO-PDX. The RDM-MSO segment would connect two U.S. Forest Service wildfire training centers and staging bases.

I'd be willing to wager my life savings that PDX-RDM-SMO-PDX is not on there radar. Although I guess one can always wish  

I'd say they are probably looking at somewhere in the Southeast for at least one destination. Maybe GSO, MOB, or JAN. Maybe they'd give BTR another shot. Most of there midwest cities have done well for them, so I'd think another one in that region will be added. Maybe FWA.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 62, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 16570 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 59):
I'm wondering who the "eight others" are.

If there is to be a summer expansion, I'm hoping that it might resolve the somewhat ambivalent relationship of DEN and TTN.

Obviously, I;d like to see a non-stop, but if that isn't possible (runway?) I think there should be a dedicated direct flight - DEN-XXX-TTN.

I thought XXX might be MDW, but that hasn't panned out, at least yet, or Frontier isn't offering it as DEN-TTN. Same with ATL and DTW.

I guess it's take your pick, and STL crossed my mind, as has MCI - or heck, even COU. Any one-stop isn't ideal - it makes TTN-LAS or LAX a two stop, but I think it's better than nothing.

Incidentally, one of the things that intrigues me about the latest TTN expansion is that it means virtually all the Spirit routes from ACY are replicated (absent BOS and MYR). Spirit has both ACY-ATL and ACY-DTW. Payback time?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 63, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 16566 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 61):
I'd be willing to wager my life savings that PDX-RDM-SMO-PDX is not on there radar.

Although I like what F9 is doing in TTN/Princeton. Its less the cities they chose but more the geographical location of the airport between PHL and NYC. Time will tell if F9 has found a hidden jewel. We have to remember non-subsidized small towns were for the most part shunned The G4 model has changed the mindset.

F9 does well in the Pacific Northwest West; Since MSO; not SMO came up in a earlier post my creative juices started sparking. QX flies SEA-MSO several times daily which does well. QX may also fly it from PDX-MSO I don't know. RDM is IMO a tucked away jewel and 40 minute flight from PDX which could be easily connected to the cities I suggested. RDM might just surprise a few people. I haven't been to RDM in a few year and if memory serves me G4 flew the MD-80 there which was to much aircraft; The A319 might just fly if it was connect the right market.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2757 posts, RR: 1
Reply 64, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 16579 times:

It appears that F9 will be leaving ABE in April.

Lehigh Valley International Airport has hired a new fuel supplier that will bring the cash-strapped airport an unprecedented $1 million bonus, but the deal may have driven away the airport's newest airline partner.

World Fuel Services of Miami has agreed to pay LVIA $1 million for exclusive rights to pump jet fuel for the next five years. The deal brings the struggling airport a critical infusion of cash, but Frontier Airlines executives say it is causing them to pull out over concerns of higher fuel rates.



Fuel prices seem to be quite sensitive to an airline like F9 at ABE, or is this really the issue here?

Frontier planes are 90 percent full and turning a profit at LVIA, but Robert N. Ashcroft, Frontier vice president of finance, said he sees no future in further investment at the airport.

and that F9 would not be held hostage by the fuel rates at any airport by a single supplier. Further......

........none of the other airlines [at ABE] — Allegiant, United, Delta and US Airways — has raised concerns about the World Fuel contract.

http://articles.mcall.com/2013-01-09...utive-director-world-fuel-jet-fuel

Hmmmmm....... ?

And so much recent expansion at nearby TTN?

Oh well, I guess not every new station will work for F9 (or other airlines for that matter)


 

[Edited 2013-01-10 11:07:14]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 65, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 16569 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 64):
Fuel prices seem to be quite sensitive to an airline like F9 at ABE, or is this really the issue here?

There's a big clue in the article:

"Frontier, brought in last year in hope of cushioning the loss of AirTran Airways, was planning to increase routes to Florida and was considering adding one to Denver when it got word that World Fuel was increasing the fuel surcharge to 17.9 cents. An angry Ashcroft told Everett that Frontier would not be held hostage by World Fuel rates."

If it was a choice between expansion at ABE and expansion at TTN, I see why Frontier jumped.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7143 posts, RR: 13
Reply 66, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16545 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 65):
There's a big clue in the article:

Mariner, you've complained to me numerous times that the CLE-DEN route has not appeared on the OAG thread as an addition when you say it has been for sale for weeks, but here I see a public announcement that it is just now available for sale.
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...s-opens-new-route-denver-cleveland

Can you explain? It would appear to me that as I've been saying, it was not available for sale in OAG until now.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 67, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16539 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 66):
Mariner, you've complained to me numerous times that the CLE-DEN route has not appeared on the OAG thread as an addition when you say it has been for sale for weeks, but here I see a public announcement that it is just now available for sale.
DEN-CLE has been on sale for weeks. I've been tracking it on the Frontier website.

The route actually started flying yesterday (your time) 1/9. Frontier would be really, really dumb if they waited until it was actually flying before they started selling it.

And it was surely announced in this, dated September 17:

http://airnation.net/2012/09/17/fron...nnounces-denver-cleveland-service/

I don't particularly remember questioning the lack of DEN-CLE in the OAG threads - although I may have - my first puzzle was the lack of DEN-JAC in OAG and, as I'm sure you remember, that strange reduction posted for TTN-MCO in March.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-10 11:44:07]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 68, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 16469 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 59):
I'm wondering who the "eight others" are.

It seems IFP - Bullhead-Laughlin - has thrown its hat in the ring:

http://www.mohavedailynews.com/artic...ocal/doc50ed10af7a6f6409285505.txt

"Airport authority makes another bid at landing Frontier

The Mohave County Airport Authority board rolled the dice Tuesday at its quarterly meeting in another attempt to secure regularly scheduled passenger service from Frontier Airlines for Laughlin/Bullhead International Airport.

Board members approved a resolution authorizing expenditure of $500,000 to pre-purchase airline tickets to be used as incentives.....

The $500,000 would be used to purchase 5,000 tickets at approximately $100 each — roughly the cost of a one-way ticket from Laughlin/Bullhead to Frontier’s Denver hub. The tickets would be given away on a buy-three-get-one-free basis."


mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2757 posts, RR: 1
Reply 69, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 16322 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 68):
It seems IFP - Bullhead-Laughlin - has thrown its hat in the ring:

Persistent bunch there at IFP, but I guess it's what you got to do if you run an airport, and want some scheduled commercial airline service there. But persistence does pay off, hence DEN finally (and yes FINALLY) after some 10 years of persistence (and some $22M) FINALLY got their long wished for DEN-NRT nonstop from UA.

It seems that IFP has been after F9 for a DEN route (and this probably makes the best sense for IFP to get a nonstop into DEN not only for some O&D, but for the connects as well, and hence the incentives) for about 2-3 years now, and even issued a report on all of the data and benefits...... So this isn't the first time IFP/F9/DEN have crossed paths......

http://www.laughlinbullheadintlairport.com/images/frontier.pdf

This report is dated 6/10, so airport officials and area community have probably been at this for about 3 years now..... and here it is bubbling up again...... and let's hope that IFP doesn't have to wait 10 years for this route the way that DEN had to wait for their NRT route......

All the best to IFP. I do believe that this is something that has a good chance of working if done correctly. Somehow, I kinda think that this is similar to BKG...... a smaller resort area hoping that some air traffic can be brought in and be good for business and the community. Hey..... maybe some people may want to change up from just LAS and gambling there all the time?


 

[Edited 2013-01-10 20:51:51]

User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1305 posts, RR: 12
Reply 70, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 16240 times:

Mariner, If you read the entire article (which I'm sure you did) it doesn't sound all that optimistic that IFP will get F9 service. It sounds like it could've been operated last year on an E190 but then Republic decided to sell them. I personally don't think F9 is interested in starting any new routes that can't work immediately with an A319. I don't think IFP could even fill an E190 and in that article it sounds like the airport authority/casinos are having a hard time believing it will actually happen. I'm just trying to be optimistic about this. I do think MSO-DEN stands a great chance at getting service though.


On a side note, between now and and April (when the MCO draw down occurs), I did a quick fare comparison. The following is the highest fare on any date between today and April 8.

SHD: $69
GSO: $127
COU: $205
TTN: $279
ABE: $279
MDT: $279
BMI: $209

As you can see, it looks like COU seems to be doing well, whilet on the other hand SHD seems to be under performing. I had my doubts on both, but it looks like MCO-COU is doing well.




Quoting point2point (Reply 64):
It appears that F9 will be leaving ABE in April.

Lehigh Valley International Airport has hired a new fuel supplier that will bring the cash-strapped airport an unprecedented $1 million bonus, but the deal may have driven away the airport's newest airline partner.

World Fuel Services of Miami has agreed to pay LVIA $1 million for exclusive rights to pump jet fuel for the next five years. The deal brings the struggling airport a critical infusion of cash, but Frontier Airlines executives say it is causing them to pull out over concerns of higher fuel rates.


Fuel prices seem to be quite sensitive to an airline like F9 at ABE, or is this really the issue here?

Frontier planes are 90 percent full and turning a profit at LVIA, but Robert N. Ashcroft, Frontier vice president of finance, said he sees no future in further investment at the airport.

and that F9 would not be held hostage by the fuel rates at any airport by a single supplier. Further......

........none of the other airlines [at ABE] %u2014 Allegiant, United, Delta and US Airways %u2014 has raised concerns about the World Fuel contract.

http://articles.mcall.com/2013-01-09...utive-director-world-fuel-jet-fuel

Hmmmmm....... ?

And so much recent expansion at nearby TTN?

I personally think F9 was evaluating ABE-TPA/FLL/RSW/MST when this was going on. I think ABE would've been able to do better than TTN in fare premiums to MCO and possibly DEN, but TTN has a better catchment


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 71, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 16226 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 70):
Mariner, If you read the entire article (which I'm sure you did) it doesn't sound all that optimistic that IFP will get F9 service.

On face value, I think it is unlikely, too.

The problem is, as always, I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes. Is this just a stand alone offer, or are the casinos involved with capacity purchase agreements? Does the deal with Republic have any bearing on this?

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 70):
As you can see, it looks like COU seems to be doing well, whilet on the other hand SHD seems to be under performing. I had my doubts on both, but it looks like MCO-COU is doing well.

COU going to 3 x weekly in April. As someone else said, who would have thought that COU would do better than GSO?

I think it is a pity about SHD, but all the airline can do is offer.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBuddys747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 527 posts, RR: 4
Reply 72, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 16081 times:

I think FLL would be a good fit to some the newer NE cities. Do a few weekly flights, like FL did to MDT and ABE. The flights did well, only reason they got axed was the merger with WN. Maybe when more birds start arriving!

User currently offlineBA0197 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2011, 309 posts, RR: 1
Reply 73, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 16036 times:

For God's sake can F9 add a few flights from IAH. I work at gates 29 and 27 and they leave from gate 30 at IAH terminal A. Ever since they came back I cannot remember a SINGLE occasion where the gate agent has not said her usually announcement of "This will be a completely full flight and overhead bin space will be limited. If you would like to tag your bag to its final destination see me at the podium."

They could easily have 4 flights a day by the sound of it. I always look at their loads and they are full. They definately have the demand.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 74, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 16045 times:
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Fairly predictably, DEN-DAY is ending May 31, and for the most obvious reason - there isn't room for three:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...iscontinuing-dayton-flights/nTstK/

"Slaybaugh said that although Frontier hasn’t said as much, he believes the airline has decided not to compete with Southwest Airlines, which began service from Dayton International on Aug. 12 with a daily round-trip flight to Denver.

“They told us they have enjoyed their time in Dayton and maybe they’ll return in future,” Slaybaugh said. United Airlines also serves Denver, Slaybaugh added. “We do have a lot of service to Denver,” he added.


First law of Siegel - they gotta fly where they make the most money.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJoeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 16004 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 70):
SHD: $69
GSO: $127
COU: $205
TTN: $279
ABE: $279
MDT: $279
BMI: $209

How does OMA compare on this too?


User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 76, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 15865 times:
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GentFromAlaska said:

Although I like what F9 is doing in TTN/Princeton. Its less the cities they chose but more the geographical location of the airport between PHL and NYC. Time will tell if F9 has found a hidden jewel. We have to remember non-subsidized small towns were for the most part shunned The G4 model has changed the mindset.

If I'm not mistaken Trenton NJ is also on an Amtrak line into NYC.


With slots so hard to come by in the other NYC airports and SBN clamoring for SBN-NYC service either to LGA or EWR might they settle for third best with SBN-TTN.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2757 posts, RR: 1
Reply 77, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 15912 times:

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 76):
With slots so hard to come by in the other NYC airports and SBN clamoring for SBN-NYC service either to LGA or EWR might they settle for third best with SBN-TTN.

What's going on with the slots that F9/Republic have at LGA? There were 3-4 daily flights to DEN, then a couple or so to each of MKE and MCI. That's about 8 or so slots, eh? Now, they only have 2 daily flights to DEN. I think that maybe Republic did something with them a while back..... anyone remember? And if so.... what is the current slot situation with F9 at LGA?


 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 78, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 15909 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 77):
What's going on with the slots that F9/Republic have at LGA?

Frontier only has it's original Frontier DEN/LGA slots.

Republic did a deal (with Delta) for the Republic owned slots that came from Midwest.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2757 posts, RR: 1
Reply 79, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 15885 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 78):
Frontier only has it's original Frontier DEN/LGA slots.

Okay, t/y... but isn't that about 4 pair or so? IIRC, DEN-LGA on F9 was at least 3 daily (and maybe even 4) so there is a slot or two out there that F9 doesn't seem to be using at the moment, eh?


 

[Edited 2013-01-11 17:58:41]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 80, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 15883 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 79):
Okay, t/y... but isn't that about 4 pair or so? IIRC, DEN-LGA on F9 was at least 3 daily (and maybe even 4) so there is a slot or two out there that F9 doesn't seem to be using at the moment, eh?

There were (are?) 3 pair. Some time ago (Potter or Menke?) they applied for and got a 4th pair, specifically to used for a red-eye flight, which flew one summer. Okay loads, yield not so good, and I think that pair went back but they may have kept it.

I'm not sure of the status of the 3rd pair. If they still have it, they may, stress may, use it for this summer, but given the whole "less is more" approach - and given TTN - they may not.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-11 18:20:39]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2757 posts, RR: 1
Reply 81, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15712 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 80):
There were (are?) 3 pair. Some time ago (Potter or Menke?) they applied for and got a 4th pair, specifically to used for a red-eye flight, which flew one summer. Okay loads, yield not so good, and I think that pair went back but they may have kept it.

I'm not sure of the status of the 3rd pair. If they still have it, they may, stress may, use it for this summer, but given the whole "less is more" approach - and given TTN - they may not.

Thanks for the info..... I had been under the impression that F9 (not including the YX flights LGA-MKE/MCI) had about 4 slot pairs at LGA..... and presently they use 2. Maybe 3 pairs though is the number?

If any slot(s) sit(s) idle there, I would like to think that at some time in the near future, they would utilize what the have at LGA.... and it could be used somewhere other than DEN. Don't know where, but if (IF) they still have them, and stay within the perimeter rule, maybe such places as FAR, or LIT, or CID, or BMI..... it doesn't even have to be daily service, but maybe 3X and 4X weekly to a couple of these destinations?

But then, LGA is a tough airport to get any sort of a break out of..........

 

[Edited 2013-01-12 08:31:05]

User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15707 times:

Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 72):
I think FLL would be a good fit to some the newer NE cities. Do a few weekly flights, like FL did to MDT and ABE. The flights did well, only reason they got axed was the merger with WN. Maybe when more birds start arriving!
MDT-FLL would make sense. ABE-FLL would also, but F9 ditched ABE altogether in favor of TTN and MDT. However, if one is in Lehigh Valley or further up by Wilkes Barre-Scranton , ABE would have been the closest airport for an LCC to Florida, so it could have it's own distinct pull even though it overlaps TTN and MDT. There is pretty much only Allegiant to SFB/Orlando from ABE, but no So.Florida service FLL via flights nearby.

I'm curious if the Wilkes Barre-Scranton region supports JetBlue's SWF Florida flights (1x to MCO and 1x FLL). The region is slightly closer to SWF, than the primary NYC airports or PHL, and parking would obviously be easier at SWF, but ABE would be a lot closer than SWF, EWR and PHL.

[Edited 2013-01-12 08:29:37]

User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1381 posts, RR: 2
Reply 83, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15711 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 81):

Frontier only has 4 slots operating as 2 daily DEN flights. They don't have any slots sitting idle. If they want more LGA flights they need to get it from another airline.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2757 posts, RR: 1
Reply 84, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15697 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 83):
Frontier only has 4 slots operating as 2 daily DEN flights. They don't have any slots sitting idle. If they want more LGA flights they need to get it from another airline.

Okay...... but IIRC, didn't they just a while ago have LGA-DEN at 3 daily, and somehow I even remember 4 daily about 3 or 4 summers ago?

Did they trade, or sell, (or something) those extra slots, or am I remembering incorrectly? I only ask because I flew F9 LGA-DEN-LGA quite a bit over the last 10 years or so..... and there seemed to be a lot more selection with the timing of flights here.


 



[Edited 2013-01-12 08:38:00]

User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1381 posts, RR: 2
Reply 85, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15691 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 84):
Okay...... but IIRC, didn't they just a while ago have LGA-DEN at 3 daily, and somehow I even remember 4 daily about 3 or 4 summers ago?

Yeah, they had 4, went down to 3 in September I believe and then went down to 2 in October. The slots are operating at DL.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2757 posts, RR: 1
Reply 86, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15686 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 85):
Yeah, they had 4, went down to 3 in September I believe and then went down to 2 in October. The slots are operating at DL.

Okay.... but I thought those were the YX slots? Did Republic give DL the F9 slots as well? If (IF) they did, then again there's a problem with a regional, or fly-for-fee operation running a branded operation, in that DL itself now has 2 daily LGA-DEN nonstops, directly competing against F9.

Hmmmmmm?



 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 87, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 15658 times:
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Quoting airliner371 (Reply 83):
They don't have any slots sitting idle.

The third slot pair usually goes dormant in winter. But:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 85):
The slots are operating at DL.

I had not heard that about the Frontier slots. But if so, it may change the nature of the relationship with Delta - for the better, I hope.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2757 posts, RR: 1
Reply 88, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 15647 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 87):
The third slot pair usually goes dormant in winter. But:

On this subject of LGA slots (and the other FAA slot controlled airports) does anyone know where to get current info about the status of the slots (info such as how many slots a particular airline has, what times they can use them, etc) somewhere on the web? I tried searching here and googled phrases such as "LGA airline slot amount status" and other such phrases..... and did not find anything to avail here. How does one go about obtaining this type of info? Anyone out there with some guidance in this area?

Quoting mariner (Reply 87):
I had not heard that about the Frontier slots. But if so, it may change the nature of the relationship with Delta - for the better, I hope.

Maybe.... but my comment still applies.......

Quoting point2point (Reply 86):
If (IF) they did, then again there's a problem with a regional, or fly-for-fee operation running a branded operation, in that DL itself now has 2 daily LGA-DEN nonstops, directly competing against F9.


and DL obtained 2 slot pairs from Republic to directly compete against F9 here?

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 89, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 15638 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 88):
and DL obtained 2 slot pairs from Republic to directly compete against F9 here?

I don't know that Delta did.

But I think it would be a neat - and very desirable - trick if it has happened.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1381 posts, RR: 2
Reply 90, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15573 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 88):

LGA Slots

US Airways: 65
United: 41
Southwest/AirTran: 27
Air Canada: 24
JetBlue: 18
Spirit: 11
WestJet: 8
Frontier: 2

(US and United change daily so that may not be exact, the rest are exact, weekdays)



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinePacificF27 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 91, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15543 times:
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Don't think so. US 65? How about Delta?


EVA is tops across the Pacific!
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15404 times:

From it's route map, F9's biggest lack of service is New England, i.e. BOS. It probably won't be able to restore service there on it's metal from DEN with BOS-DEN already being competitive from two LCCs (B6, WN) and there is UA.

However, to it's advantage is that in NY, it flies LGA-DEN and LGA is preferred airport for domestic over JFK. B6 has LGA slots, but isn't using them for DEN. Could the two carriers find it in interest to codeshare so that F9 pax can reach BOS via the B6 flight, and B6 pax can reach the DEN/west coast via the F9 LGA-DEN flight?


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1381 posts, RR: 2
Reply 93, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15384 times:

Quoting PacificF27 (Reply 91):
Don't think so. US 65?

Yes, US 65. Remember the slot swap. US has 65.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineBuddys747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 527 posts, RR: 4
Reply 94, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 15274 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 82):
MDT-FLL would make sense. ABE-FLL would also, but F9 ditched ABE altogether in favor of TTN and MDT. However, if one is in Lehigh Valley or further up by Wilkes Barre-Scranton , ABE would have been the closest airport for an LCC to Florida, so it could have it's own distinct pull even though it overlaps TTN and MDT. There is pretty much only Allegiant to SFB/Orlando from ABE, but no So.Florida service FLL via flights nearby.

I'm curious if the Wilkes Barre-Scranton region supports JetBlue's SWF Florida flights (1x to MCO and 1x FLL). The region is slightly closer to SWF, than the primary NYC airports or PHL, and parking would obviously be easier at SWF, but ABE would be a lot closer than SWF, EWR and PHL.

ABE certainly has seen it's share of problems in the last few years with law suits and fly by night carriers. F9 I guess felt there is more potential at TTN. In terms of Wilkes-Barre Scranton area, they do have G4 to SFB 2 times a week. Those that are north of Scranton wouldn't be too far from SWF. Anything south or west (Bloomsburg, Sunbury, etc.) are only 1.5 hours away from MDT. F9 has been coming up with very interesting routes lately, I hope MDT- south Florida is one of them. A year ago I don't think anyone would have thought we would see MDT-MCO on F9 metal.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 95, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 15206 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 70):
SHD: $69

We have to remember CHO is fairly close to SHD and CHO appears to be well served to the Washington D.C. including BWI; CLT to the south and even ORD to the East Northeast. Possibly SHD lower $69 medium fare is solely meant to entice those flyers who would fly to MCI and who would connect at the other cities to use SHD and fly non-stop.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 96, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 15144 times:
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Jerseyguy posted this in the other thread, but I think it deserves a place here - apart from anything else, there is a slideshow of interesting photos of Frontier at TTN.

And a somewhat misleading headline:

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...rontier_airlines_to_make_tren.html

"Frontier Airlines to relocate all domestic flights from Philadelphia to Trenton-Mercer Airport"

I think the reporter was a wee bitty overexcited - there was only one PHL domestic flight and it isn't - yet - replicated at TTN, and won't be until (if?) there is a DEN route.

But there is some good stuff in the article:

"Mercer County residents may have noticed the blizzard of print and radio ads, the roadside billboards and the signs hanging in local shopping malls advertising the flights that Frontier Airlines has begun offering at Trenton-Mercer Airport."

"Blizzard of advertising" and "Frontier" are not words you will often find in the same sentence, outside of DEN.

Mostly, the takeaway, both from the text and the photos, is that they really, really need to do some work on that airport. I assume that since they haven't put the restaurant lease up for new bid, that could help with space.

And this:

"Freeholder Lucylle Walter, a Ewing resident who has long been critical of activities at the airport, said she hopes that the county will be cautious before putting money into terminal improvements.

“I have always been concerned about putting money into the airport until we have proven revenues coming in,” Walter said. “We have a great start to Frontier Airlines, but things will settle down a little bit.”


She's right. It's a great start and all the indications I've heard (forward bookings) are that it will continue, but there are still a couple of hurdles to go, smaller hurdles, maybe.

I have already eaten humble pie about CMH, but I'll go further - it may be one of the more important routes Frontier has announced.

CMH has no LCC service to that neck of the woods - PHL/NYC - the nearest would be Southwest's CMH-BWI. So if it works, I can imagine a bunch of midwest airports beating a path to Frontier's door. BMI, for example, has no service at all to PHL/NYC, LCC or legacy.

Airtran seems to make CMH-ATL work - 2 x daily - so I have all my fingers and toes crossed for TTN-CMH.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 97, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 15072 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 96):
I think the reporter was a wee bitty overexcited - there was only one PHL domestic flight and it isn't - yet - replicated at TTN, and won't be until (if?) there is a DEN route.

Possibly the reporter had a momentary lapse thinking PHL-CUN or PHL-Punta Cana Apple flights at PHL were domestic. Domestic North America maybe. http://www.flyfrontier.com/plan-book/routes-schedules/route-map.

I'm not sure of the contract term for the two Apple flights from PHL. If they are long term it might make sense if F9 has any wiggle room to relocate the two flights from PHL to TTN provided there is a ICE Immigration Customs Enforcement station in TTN. I understand the Mercers or Freeholders would also have to approve the deal in advance.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 95):
and even ORD to the East Northeast

Correction West Northwest. The geographically challanged in me got the better of me today.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 95):
would fly to MCI and who would connect at the other cities to use SHD and fly non-stop.

Correction MCO.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineNKOPS From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2663 posts, RR: 6
Reply 98, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 15015 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 97):
I'm not sure of the contract term for the two Apple flights from PHL.

I would love to see these flights switched to ACY since RP now has a station there, and ACY has the FIS facility now.



I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1305 posts, RR: 12
Reply 99, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 14911 times:

Quoting Joeljack (Reply 75):
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 70):
SHD: $69
GSO: $127
COU: $205
TTN: $279
ABE: $279
MDT: $279
BMI: $209

How does OMA compare on this too?

I didn't bother checking MKE, MSN, COS, or OMA as you can already fly MCO-DEN-XXX, MCO-OMA can be flown everyday via DEN and isn't being kept open for that once a week flight. SHD on the other hand is open solely for MCO-SHD service, so extremely low fares is a better indication to the station not doing well. I imagine the spring schedule (through April) is just about done/finalized. There has been no indication to MCO-SHD being extended, and typically airlines want to to have at least 90 days of available bookings prior to the flight. So given that it ends 07Apr13, it's looking less likely that that route will stick.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 100, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14807 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 62):
If there is to be a summer expansion, I'm hoping that it might resolve the somewhat ambivalent relationship of DEN and TTN.
Quoting mariner (Reply 62):
I thought XXX might be MDW, but that hasn't panned out, at least yet, or Frontier isn't offering it as DEN-TTN.

So now DEN-MDW-TTN and TTN-MDW-DEN is bookable on the website.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 101, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14781 times:
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Just did a check of one way fares to typical westbound destinations from SBN on Frontier as compared to other airlines and SWA out of MDW.

DEN - F9 - 79 UA- 194 WN - 160
LAX - F9 - 196 UA- 196 WN - 169
SFO - F9 - 197 UA- 197 WN - 169
DFW - F9 - 184 UA- 184 WN - 221
PHX - F9 - 279 UA- 295 WN -142

Although United has matched Frontiers fares out of SBN the flights involve a connection at O'hare which is a congested airport and involves a regional jet flight to ORD while F9's service is on a full size jet. If anything Frontier's service and low fares is stimulating traffic out of SBN. WN's service is slightly cheaper but involves a two hour drive to MDW from SBN and the convenience of using the home town airport negates this with the exception of traveling to PHX but Allegiant's flights from SBN-IWA are probably cheaper.

So in my opinion Frontier is not only low cost but with the use of an A319 is better.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 102, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14676 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 100):
So now DEN-MDW-TTN and TTN-MDW-DEN is bookable on the website.

The ITA software http://matrix.itasoftware.com/ is not as friendly. If you want to fly TTN-DEN on F9 in April it wants to route you FLL and MSY and TPA for three. I suppose ITA hasn't caught up yet.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6565 posts, RR: 51
Reply 103, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14681 times:

I'll be on the inaugural MSY-TTN on 2/1. From what I've heard, the flight is booked fairly well. I'll try to take some pictures and share them in this thread. I'll also be wearing some Frontier swag as a show of support for my former employer.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 104, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 14617 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 103):
I'll be on the inaugural MSY-TTN on 2/1. From what I've heard, the flight is booked fairly well. I'll try to take some pictures and share them in this thread. I'll also be wearing some Frontier swag as a show of support for my former employer.

I'm surprised there are any bookings on first MSY-TTN on 2/1 - usually first return flights from a vacation destination are empty.

I'm told first flight TTN-MSY is good - Superbowl I guess - but the interesting one is the second MSY-TTN flight - Monday 2/4 - folk coming back from Superbowl?

Frontier is presently asking $1390 (one way) for the few remaining seats.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6565 posts, RR: 51
Reply 105, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 14587 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 104):
I'm surprised there are any bookings on first MSY-TTN on 2/1 - usually first return flights from a vacation destination are empty.

I'm told first flight TTN-MSY is good - Superbowl I guess - but the interesting one is the second MSY-TTN flight - Monday 2/4 - folk coming back from Superbowl?

Frontier is presently asking $1390 (one way) for the few remaining seats.

Surprised me too. Maybe they are seeing some traditional O&D traffic from MSY to the New Jersey/PHL area as an added bonus. Those next flights you mention are without question due to the Super Bowl. Also the week following is Mardi Gras, so those should probably be decent. Realistically, at least through Jazz Fest during the last weekend of April/first weekend of May, I'd expect these flights to do well. The question mark for me will be after that. We'll just have to see what happens.


User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1305 posts, RR: 12
Reply 106, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 14480 times:

Per OAG, DEN-COS service ends 01Mar13. With that, the COS experiment is over, and more importantly, COS will be down to just 4 weekly flights this summer. As of now, COS-LAX goes away from March until mid May, and comes back at 2 x weekly. COS-PHX goes from daily to 2 x weekly effective March. I can very easily see both of those routes ending, especially LAX since it is already being suspending for two months.

I imagine the problem, unlike MCO where they probably didn't advertise or create enough awareness there, was attributed to COS not being able get any higher fares than DEN. Their costs at COS were higher than DEN, and if you can't get a better yield out of COS, then it doesn't make much sense to fly the routes. Pulling DEN-COS is a complete 180 on the COS build up last summer. With this route ending, they don't even feel they need to fly COS-DEN-XXX as passengers are just driving to DEN to fly nonstop. While I think this is a smart move, I'm not sure how building up COS ever came to fruition, as several airlines have gutted COS service because of how cheap DEN fares are.


User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 107, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 14461 times:
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Just checked F9's SBN-DEN flight today on Flightaware. The Flight was F9 #803 to DEN. The flight arrived at Gate A40 and the same plane left from that gate as F9 #130 to DFW. Now since DFW is the 4th most requested destination from SBN is Frontier experimenting with possible single plane service to DFW thru DEN and if so in the future could we possibly see a single flight number from SBN-DEN-DFW? Just thinking.

User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 108, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 14417 times:
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Just checked up on some facts. Before Frontier came to SBN, DFW was the number one requested flight destination from SBN, The NYC area was two and DEN was third. Looks like the flight today took care of two of those destinations. That's why I believe if the infrastructure into NYC is in place, a SBN-TTN flight on Frontier would make sense being that slots into the NYC airports are just not to be had.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 109, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 14419 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 105):
Realistically, at least through Jazz Fest during the last weekend of April/first weekend of May, I'd expect these flights to do well. The question mark for me will be after that. We'll just have to see what happens.

You know a lot more about the market than I do, but I think that's probably right. I suspect that end of February may be slow (no special events and still cold-ish weather) but it's hard to know with TTN, it's such a new market.

I also wonder what happens in July/August when it is so freakin' hot - I'm not sure about traffic then.

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 106):
While I think this is a smart move, I'm not sure how building up COS ever came to fruition, as several airlines have gutted COS service because of how cheap DEN fares are.

I thought COS was a good idea - there was only ever one way to find out how COS would react. But I've always puzzled about what would happen to COS-DEN with the going away of the E190's. It was tough to see it with A319's. I'm a tad surprised DRO is still with us, although I think it's a slightly different case.

I also think that the strength of TTN has taken the Frontier folk slightly by surprise and may have affected the allocation of still constrained resources.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6565 posts, RR: 51
Reply 110, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 14378 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 109):
I also wonder what happens in July/August when it is so freakin' hot - I'm not sure about traffic then.

The locals get the heck out of dodge!   Tourists can actually find some great deals during that time of year, but it's always been slow for as long as I can remember. Easy to see why.


User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1305 posts, RR: 12
Reply 111, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14277 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 109):
I thought COS was a good idea - there was only ever one way to find out how COS would react.

While I guess that's true, to me it just seems like the outcome was pretty obvious. Like you said F9 has constrained resources, so my concern is that it was an opportunity cost of not using those additional resources at DEN instead.

I am interested to see out of the nine total communities that MSO is competing with will actually end up with service.

Here's an article about the upcoming cuts at COS by F9. They did say they will continue to operate COS-LAX/PHX

http://www.gazette.com/articles/springs-149727-airlines-service.html

With DAY ending in late May, the frees up part of an aircraft.

[Edited 2013-01-14 22:48:02]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 112, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 14252 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 111):
While I guess that's true, to me it just seems like the outcome was pretty obvious. Like you said F9 has constrained resources, so my concern is that it was an opportunity cost of not using those additional resources at DEN instead.

I think there was every intention that COS should work - and maybe still could be made to work.

Perhaps they should have started an easterly route but they were aware of that with the application for DCA-COS. If that had happened, then things might have been different.

But ultimately, it's the old story - use it or lose it. While COS was prepared to use the services it was not prepared to pay (to Frontier) a premium over DEN.

So - as you say - what's the point? And then it becomes about the allocation of resources.

They could still be flying COS and could probably push the yield up - lower frequencies, perhaps, and changing the route structure from COS based to DEN based via COS. but suddenly they had something else on their hands - a gift horse, which should not be looked in the mouth. Especially when that gift horse provides opportunities that almost nowhere else does.

I think you were right in an earlier post when you said that they were planning a Florida expansion (a test expansion, maybe) somewhere in the east - ABE perhaps - but simply did not expect the reaction they had at TTN. Within a week, I had posted here that I had seldom seen a Frontier route book so well and so fast as TTN-MCO. It rivalled the original DEN-CUN and the original DEN-DCA.

TTN changes everything. It provides Frontier with the missing links - more north/south in winter, the potential for that elusive "other hub" (with an anchor route at MCO other than DEN), the ability to serve places that can't be served from DEN and a whole other vast but curiously under-served market - all with virtually no competition, nor the chance of much.

It may not all work. I have little doubt there may be changes to the frequencies or some routes may go seasonal, and there is always the possibility that some routes will disappoint, but they have a solid base already. TTN has its problems - the limited and limiting terminal space and the runway - and maybe there is a limit to the numbers who will use that airport rather than PHL/EWR.

So sure, it can still go wrong - but the opportunities, at this stage, are low hanging fruit ripe for the plucking. And no one - or very few - could have guessed.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-15 01:20:32]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7143 posts, RR: 13
Reply 113, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 14178 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 112):
TTN changes everything.

So did COS and MCI and MKE and LAX and MEM and... Maybe it's different this time, but then there's history...


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 114, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 14112 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 113):
So did COS and MCI and MKE and LAX and MEM and... Maybe it's different this time, but then there's history...
MEM?

MEM changed nothing - nor was it ever going to. Who wanted to go there? I called it "The Mystery of MEM" - LOL.

MEM-LAS was announced as 5 x weekly and reduced to 2 x weekly before it even started flying.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-15 09:00:32]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1982 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14042 times:
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I have a question about Early Returns (TM). I am a COS and therefore purchased a second seat for my trip to MCO. Providing that the ticket can not be refunded (oversell) would I be eligible for the miles on my 2nd ticket? Also I will have over 10,000 miles courtesy of my TTN-MCO flight, my TTN-MDW and the F9 3X bonus. Is it hard to get an award ticket on F9 or do they offer reasonable availability?


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 808 posts, RR: 0
Reply 116, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 13973 times:

My experience is that F9 award availability has been pretty good. I've been able to find the flights I need pretty easily.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 117, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13737 times:
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The Trenton Sweepstakes:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fronti...unces-trenton-takes-173000945.html

"Frontier Airlines today announced a sweepstakes for customers who live in the Princeton/Trenton area and travel through Trenton-Mercer Airport. The sweepstakes, which runs through May 31, 2013, will award weekly and monthly prizes, as well as a grand prize in May. Participants can enter the sweepstakes by registering at Trentonsweepstakes.flyfrontier.com."

The Grand Prize is 12 free trips (one per month) for a year.

I think it's great way to get Frontier known in the area - and build up the email database. I think the monthly prize should be ongoing.

 

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-16 09:46:21]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1982 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13705 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 117):
The Trenton Sweepstakes:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fronti...unces-trenton-takes-173000945.html

"Frontier Airlines today announced a sweepstakes for customers who live in the Princeton/Trenton area and travel through Trenton-Mercer Airport. The sweepstakes, which runs through May 31, 2013, will award weekly and monthly prizes, as well as a grand prize in May. Participants can enter the sweepstakes by registering at Trentonsweepstakes.flyfrontier.com."

The Grand Prize is 12 free trips (one per month) for a year.

I think it's great way to get Frontier known in the area - and build up the email database. I think the monthly prize should be ongoing.



mariner

[Edited 2013-01-16 09:46:21]

Plus get a 10% coupon code for use to/from TTN when signing up

"Book now and receive 10% off domestic fares to/from Trenton, NJ, through Thursday, February 7, 2013. The discount will apply to regular and sale fares for domestic travel valid through May 31, 2013. All fare rules will apply. Blackout dates of February 14-15, 18, March 15-17, 22-24, 28-31, April 5-8, May 23-24, and 27, 2013, apply."



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 119, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13696 times:

It looks like Jack the Snowshoe Hare is now on an A320 with a funky tail number that ends in AV. Is 940FR phased out or something??


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User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 120, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 13469 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 54):
I'm still holding out hope that they'll start DEN-JNU service this summer.

Although DEN-JNU would be good from the hub aspect. I think a better route idea might be to connect DEN-BLI-JNU Last seasons DEN-BLI flight was to my understanding gangbusters. A DEN-BLI-JNU would give F9 a second DEN-BLI flight.

BLI being 90 miles north of SEA on I-5 gives F9 the northern Washington state catchment area and to a certain extent southwest British Columbia. If any JNU service were to happen it would have to be announced sooner rather than later as the cruise ship season begins in late April into early and mid May. The migration from snow skiing to cruise ships happens fairly quickly as the slopes at least in Juneau remain open through mid April

BLI also gives F9 access to the the Alaska Marine Highway System (AMHS) main terminal for those who may want to sail one-way and fly the other; or those who don't need or want all of the fu-fu a cruise ship offers and who may want to spend more time in any one or more of the towns along the voyage including Prince Rupert BC, Ketchikan, Petersburg, Wrangell, Juneau, Sitka, Haines and Skagway. In Prince Rupert the option exist to connect to the BC ferries if they want sail to the the Queen Charlotte Islands or elsewhere. F9 DEN-BLI-JNU service could even be less than daily (mirroring TTN) and align with the AMHS sailing schedule to/from Alaska.

For the more adventurous the National Park Service or U.S. Forest Service Park Rangers in cooperation with the Canadian Park Rangers coordinate a at your own speed not to exceed three day group hike from Skagway, Alaska for those who may want to repeat the Klondike Gold Rush hike into Canada retracing the gold rush 1898 era. The Klondike hike requires advance planning as a limited number of hikes and people allowed on each hike occur each year. It usually involves carrying your own camping gear up steep inclines for 25-30 miles and usually involves a narrow gauge railroad ride on the return. Critters are on the trail which will entice you to keep up with your group. The cruise shipper is not going to have this opportunity as they only spend 12-24 hours in the Port of Skagway.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1305 posts, RR: 12
Reply 121, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 13440 times:

As with your RDM idea, I just don't think F9 is interested in doing tag routes

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 122, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 13375 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 121):
As with your RDM idea, I just don't think F9 is interested in doing tag routes

I realize BLI is no MDW but might the MDW tag in TTN-MDW-DEN and DEN-MDW-TTN be the exception or possibly a sign or strategy of of things to come?

I want to say these are the first one-stops; weight restricted or otherwise I recall in the years I've been following F9 going back to 1997-ish. IMO F9 less than daily service and potential one-stop service fit the ULCC model better than the LCC model. It's going to be fun watching the loads in the TTN-ATL and TTN-MDW markets which to my understanding are currently scheduled for six days a week when compared to the other two or three day a week service to other smaller cities.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 13200 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 49):

I posted this in the other thread, but I should probably post it here. To give it some background, Robert Ashcorft is the Senior VP Finance at frontier. The other one - the one who wrote the piece about TTN - is Anthony Tangorra, more about him after the link.

Yep, good find mariner.

http://www.theairlinezone.com/2012/11/trenton-airport/ In the article you cite, note the push for frequency by the author...

For more, see the linkedin links and note the work history and the publications (one in particular from JetOne Magazine from 2006 discusses airports like TTN):

Tangorra's linkedin is here:
http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view...*2&pvs=ps&trk=pp_profile_name_link

Ashcroft here:
http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view...*2&pvs=ps&trk=pp_profile_name_link


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 124, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 13154 times:

Quoting Sligo (Reply 123):

Keeping with www.linkedin fashion welcome aboard to airliners.net and one of better threads; everything F9



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineSligo From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 125, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 13118 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 124):
welcome aboard to airliners.net and one of better threads; everything F9

Thank you kindly gent. There sure are interesting things afoot w/F9 from almost every angle...


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 126, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 13068 times:
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Quoting Sligo (Reply 123):
http://www.theairlinezone.com/2012/11/trenton-airport/ In the article you cite, note the push for frequency by the author...

Frontier has never done well with high frequency.

We can all be wise after the event, but LAX-MSP can be regarded as the start of Frontier's downfall.

Two things happened with LAX-MSP - (i) Frontier couldn't begin to fill the 2 x daily frequency but (ii) Delta regarded it as a threat because of that frequency, that Frontier had to be aiming for some business traffic.

If Frontier had then accepted, and been content, with its role as a leisure airline and started LAX-MSP as say 3 x weekly, Allegiant style - who knows what might have happened?

It applied particularly after Southwest came to DEN - Frontier tried to match both the multiple frequencies and the fares - and came to grief. United did much the same for a while and within a year had turned DEN from its most profitable hub to its least profitable.

I recall when Frontier's DEN-LAS was at 10 x daily. All that did was reduce yield and it lasted about a minute. When the airline started DEN-RSW, it did extremely well and they pushed it up to 2 x daily year round. The result was predictable.

Frontier is now making money in part because of the rigid fleet discipline and in larger part because of the lower frequencies.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 127, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 13036 times:
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Meanwhile, back at Frontier West, both MOT and FSD get the A319 at the beginning of March.

I'm told this is partly a preparation for Spring and partly because of the unreliability of the E190's the past few weeks.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-18 15:10:49]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineNKOPS From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2663 posts, RR: 6
Reply 128, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12853 times:

165HQ just pulled into ACY in Midwest livery... how long has this plane been out of service?


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User currently offlineJA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 563 posts, RR: 1
Reply 129, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 12749 times:

If you are trying to get someone else to buy E190 time, the fact that the planes are not as reliable would give pause.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 130, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 12514 times:
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There are two good articles out this week-end which are curiously interdependent - the difference and similarities between COS and TTN.

COS first:

http://www.gazette.com/articles/fron...ier-149910-elsewhere-airlines.html

"Frontier Airlines short-lived “focus city” experiment in Colorado Springs failed because the Denver-based carrier underestimated how willing local passengers are to drive to Denver for a wide selection of inexpensive flights, the experiment’s architect says."

DS goes on to discuss what happened on each route. It isn't entirely a lost cause - PHX stays (6x) and LAX (3x) at least for the summer.

But he keeps coming back to the central point:

"“The challenge is that the market knows there is high-frequency, low-fare service to virtually any market of significant size from Denver,” Shurz said. “We know there is healthy demand — Colorado Springs is large enough to generate that demand, but when you compare multiple daily flights in Denver to several flights a week from Colorado Springs, it turned out to be more of a challenge than we thought. At times when demand was high, we could get the fares where they were economically viable, but the trick is not doing it in July, it is doing it in enough months to generate a profit.”

Which leads to an article in Philly.com about TTN and the immediate reaction to Frontier there - full planes - with some comments by the analyst Bob McAdoo:

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20130120_Air_Travel_For_All.html

The focus is not on business travelers, but on leisure travelers and customers who want and need to make trips, but can be flexible about the dates.

"It's people who need to see Grandma, or go to a wedding, but will move their itinerary to save $150," McAdoo said.

Previous carriers tried to attract the business traveler "who would pay any price to get up to Boston on a Monday morning," Hughes said. "I just don't think people fly like that anymore."


I think people - some people - do still fly like that, who will pay high fares, but I doubt they are Frontier or TTN pax.

And if the "drive anywhere for a low fare" concept is valid, it surely expands the catchment area of TTN.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 808 posts, RR: 0
Reply 131, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12269 times:

Hey Mariner, are the Dickie Birds chirping about MSO? One can hope  

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 132, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12265 times:
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Quoting mcg (Reply 131):
Hey Mariner, are the Dickie Birds chirping about MSO? One can hope  

Sorry, the dickie birds have really clammed up about Frontier West. Most of the stuff coming to me is about Frontier East.

 

mariner



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User currently offline727tiger From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 133, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12221 times:

Apologies in advance if this has been asked before, but does anyone know when Frontier will issue a schedule that extends beyond 7/10/13? I need to book a trip to SEA 7/11-7/20 and want to see what my fare options are on Frontier. Already have noted SWA's non-stop MCI-SEA. Would like to see if Frontier's fares out of BKG would be worth the seriously early departure out of SEA on 7/20 to make connection in DEN for BKG. Most likely will not be enough to sway us out of the SWA MCI-SEA non-stopsl, but I would like to give Frontier a chance.

User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5029 posts, RR: 28
Reply 134, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 12154 times:

Still sad that F9 dropped SEA MCI. It was a good flight. The 190 was pretty reliable on it too. There was talk of changing it to a 319 too. Is MCI a ghost town now for F9? I cant imagine how bare MKE is now. How many open gates there?


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User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 135, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 11956 times:
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Here's an interesting one - a woman is suing the TSA, the FBI - and Frontier:

http://consumerist.com/2013/01/22/wo...ter-being-detained-strip-searched/

"Woman Sues TSA, FBI, Frontier Airlines After Being Detained & Strip-Searched"

I wasn't there, I don't know what happened, but - on the face of it - she may have a case.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3128 posts, RR: 6
Reply 136, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 11918 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 135):
"Woman Sues TSA, FBI, Frontier Airlines After Being Detained & Strip-Searched"

Wow!
But this needn't involve F9, unless the crew were needlessly freaked out about ethnicity and started the whole thing.
And for discussion, this needs it's own thread.


User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2001 posts, RR: 13
Reply 137, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 11903 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 136):
But this needn't involve F9, unless the crew were needlessly freaked out about ethnicity and started the whole thing.
And for discussion, this needs it's own thread.

Frontier probably has the deep pockets...I'll bet their liability limit is at least $500M. Obviously the insurer will try and get itself dismissed from this suit.


User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1982 posts, RR: 0
Reply 138, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 11884 times:
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She also sued border patrol and ICE. She forgot Airbus and the makers of the jetbridge too.


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 808 posts, RR: 0
Reply 139, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11823 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 132):
Quoting mcg (Reply 131):
Hey Mariner, are the Dickie Birds chirping about MSO? One can hope  

Sorry, the dickie birds have really clammed up about Frontier West. Most of the stuff coming to me is about Frontier East.

 

mariner

Thanks for the info!


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 140, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11810 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 135):
she may have a case.

It doesn't sound like it to me.

I'm sure there is a in-flight lavatory standard. e.g. how long does it take the normal person to use the john. It only takes another passenger to ask about the lavs being tied up for an extended period of time to raise a red flag.

The A319 has what three? Following 9/11 they no longer allow a line to form at the forward lav. If she was in their sick she should have let the FA's know. I suppose the gate crew will be interviewed and the seat assignment records checked to validate the woman's story.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 141, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11791 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 140):
It doesn't sound like it to me.

She has enough of a prima facie case for the ACLU to take it up, Gent - and whatever anyone's opinion of the ACLU, they have some verrrrrry smart lawyers.

One can argue, of course, that the ACLU is out to prove a bigger point and it does seem to have cast the net very wide.

Whether it will stand inspection or not, whether she wins or not, is another matter. A court case isn't about justice - it is about the law and she has powerful legal forces arrayed against her.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 142, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11736 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 140):
It doesn't sound like it to me.

Actually, she does. I agree with Mariner, and I hope she wins. The law enforcement folks deprived her of her 4th amendment rights, never charged her, never explained anything to her during the booking process according to the article. They treated her like an animal.

Now, why is F9 named? I can see why.... The FA on the plane, their employee, must have said something to the pilot out of severe overreaction and this is why the police stormed the plane like they did.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 138):
She forgot Airbus and the makers of the jetbridge too.

There was really no reason to say that, just a stupid thing to say.

Quoting rampart (Reply 136):
But this needn't involve F9, unless the crew were needlessly freaked out about ethnicity and started the whole thing.

It was an unnecessary knee jerk reaction, IMO, that triggered ths whole thing. The crew should share some of the blame. I wonder what the FA's said to the flight deck and to the authorities.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1305 posts, RR: 12
Reply 143, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11654 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 132):
Hey Mariner, are the Dickie Birds chirping about MSO? One can hope

Sorry, the dickie birds have really clammed up about Frontier West. Most of the stuff coming to me is about Frontier East.

MSO would not be surprising at all.

Mariner, have you heard any additional stuff regarding the east? To my knowledge Daniel Shurz stated that TTN wouldn't get anything new until after the summer at least. I also assume MCO won't either as May/June isn't a great time to add MCO flights


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 144, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11596 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 143):
Mariner, have you heard any additional stuff regarding the east? To my knowledge Daniel Shurz stated that TTN wouldn't get anything new until after the summer at least.

Yes, I heard that, although I didn't hear a date. I took it to mean they'll slow down TTN expansion for a while. They have to see how the new (non-Florida) routes book and the patterns may be different from Florida.

I think it's sensible. TTN has already built more rapidly than I imagined it would. There is a rumor that there may be a new route to TTN - but it's only coming from lower level dickie birds (they're all a bit excited about TTN) and I can't get it confirmed.

That said, I would love to see another variation to connect TTN with DEN. TTN-MDW-DEN allows for connections (at DEN) but the return DEN-MDW-TTN doesn't - it leaves DEN at 7am. I don't think it could be DTW or ATL.

There may also be some fleet questions. We appear to have reached stabilisation and Silent Siegel has said they want to grow, but - grow smart. So I suspect TTN has changed some of the plan - it's all A319 and may stay that way for a while. They were intending to bring in another A320 in April, but last I heard that has been switched for an A319 - N954FR.

I'm not sure of the status of that planned A320 but I guess we'll hear more about the new fleet plan on the Q4 conference call. I also assume we'll also hear more about any new summer DEN routes at about the same time, or within two or three weeks.

And yes, I would be surprised if they have any more MCO planned for the summer.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25173 posts, RR: 85
Reply 145, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11409 times:
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iPhone app now available from the Apple apps store.

mariner



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