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Is Port-Au-Prince (PAP) Really This Profitable?  
User currently offlinerising From United States of America, joined May 2010, 269 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 12605 times:

I was looking at the schedules of airlines, principally from the United States, to PAP and it's actually quite amazing, at least it was to me, the amount of flights available non-stop to Haiti. I can't imagine there is much if any tourist traffic. What is driving this demand?

From what I could see:

United sends a daily 738 from EWR.

AMR sends a three flights a day from Miami, a 738, 757, and a 763. From FLL they send two 738s. And lastly, from JFK, they send another 763.

Delta has a daily flight from JFK, and also has flights at other times from ATL.

Air France operates a daily A320 from MIA .

Insel Air fly a MD83 from MIA.

What's the attraction to PAP for airlines? Strong yields, loads? Where is this traffic coming from?


If it doesn't make sense, it's because it's not true.
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8045 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 12611 times:

Big expat community? Don't underestimate the scale of the NGO industry. PAP is a total magnet for those guys. Then again I am a bit surprised to see a 767-300 on the list and multiple dailies. Thanks for the interesting info. Other explanations from those who know the market better (is Wyclef Jean an a.netter?) will be interesting to read.


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlinedeltairlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8892 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 12422 times:

Note that, with the exception of Delta's ATL flight (which is once a week for now, goes to 3x/wk this summer), the markets served are either in the New York or South Florida areas, both of which have strong local traffic bases to PAP.

User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1112 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 12338 times:

Quoting rising (Thread starter):
Air France operates a daily A320 from MIA .

Do they have full rights on that route or is it just to connect to CDG?


User currently offlineroswell41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 774 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 12320 times:

NK flies FLL to PAP six times a week too.

User currently offlinedeltairlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8892 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 12295 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 3):
Do they have full rights on that route or is it just to connect to CDG?

Full rights. The flight continues on to PTP. The timings on it don't allow for connections to CDG in Miami (it's a morning flight out of MIA and a late evening arrival).


User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1112 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 12266 times:

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 5):
Full rights. The flight continues on to PTP. The timings on it don't allow for connections to CDG in Miami (it's a morning flight out of MIA and a late evening arrival).

So is it because PTP is a French territory, technically it is then France-US?


User currently offlinedeltairlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8892 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 12239 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 6):
So is it because PTP is a French territory, technically it is then France-US?

Not from the PAP perspective as AF has full traffic rights on MIA-PAP.


User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5152 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 12179 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 1):
Then again I am a bit surprised to see a 767-300 on the list and multiple dailies.

And it was a religious AB3 station before they were retired. PAP has tremendous VFR traffic from NYC and South Florida. A lot of cargo and luggage is carried as well. I know NK also had started the route before. A dental colleague of mine is Haitian and she would travel frequently to PAP from BNA where we were in dental school. She took NK once but usually she would fly American.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineflyjoe From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 286 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 12143 times:

PAP is a unique market. There's a lot of VFR traffic, along with mission/relief travel. I myself have been to PAP three times on church mission trips and headed back later this year. The flights are always packed, whether it's a 738, 763 or A300. It's amazing to see the amount of personal items that are carried by pax from the US. When our group goes, we make full use of the 50 lb / 2 bag limit and sometimes a few excess bags if we need for our trip.

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7105 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 11949 times:

Quoting flyjoe (Reply 9):
There's a lot of VFR traffic, along with mission/relief travel.


Exactly.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 1):
I am a bit surprised to see a 767-300 on the list and multiple dailies.


It used to be multiple A300s to PAP from JFK and MIA on AA before they retired. Tons of cargo on the route and the passengers bring tons of bags. AA even had an A300 on FLL-PAP for a bit of time.

At MIA PAP has its own dedicated check in space for its flights. The amount of baggage PAP passengers have is crazy. I have seen the flight load many times and it is over 50% VFR traffic. The Haitian community in South Florida is HUGE. Tons of people going to see family in Miami or Haiti. Given that there is some business traffic also even though I can't think it would be too much because Haiti is such a poor country. The rest of the flight is filled with NGO workers, doctors, mission trips etc.. There is a lot of charity and NGO organizations down there so given there are not really too many flights to chose from it makes sense some of these flights are full.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 11951 times:

I wonder if the high crime and extremely poor market (pre and post earthquake), whether PAP also has barriers to entryfor new carriers that serve to increase the profit of carriers already in the markets?


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24769 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 11931 times:

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 7):
Quoting LOWS (Reply 6):
So is it because PTP is a French territory, technically it is then France-US?

Not from the PAP perspective as AF has full traffic rights on MIA-PAP.

Fifth freedom rights only. AF couldn't operate a stand-alone MIA-PAP flight. PAP has to be an intermediate stop en route to PTP (or FDF or CAY if they operated those directly) since Guadeloupe, Martinique and French Guiana are part of France.

Quoting flyjoe (Reply 9):
PAP is a unique market. There's a lot of VFR traffic, along with mission/relief travel.

Not sure if it's changed recently but a high percentage of taxi drivers in Montreal used to be Haitian.


User currently offlinerising From United States of America, joined May 2010, 269 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 11929 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):

Interesting. Does AA have their own station there with their own employees, or are they contracted? I would think flight crews simply return on the same flights- no overnight stays?



If it doesn't make sense, it's because it's not true.
User currently offlineflyjoe From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 286 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 11886 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):
It used to be multiple A300s to PAP from JFK and MIA on AA before they retired.

Here is a picture I took in 2008 as I boarded my flight with three A-300s on the ground.
Quoting rising (Reply 13):
Does AA have their own station there with their own employees, or are they contracted?

The customer service agents were AA staff the last time I was there in 2010. I'm sure the ramp is contracted.


User currently offlineirshava From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 11677 times:

Quoting rising (Thread starter):
Air France operates a daily A320 from MIA

With an A320? How does that work... they base one of their aircraft from France in Haiti? Never knew this..



“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24769 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 11636 times:

Quoting irshava (Reply 15):
Quoting rising (Thread starter):
Air France operates a daily A320 from MIA

With an A320? How does that work... they base one of their aircraft from France in Haiti? Never knew this..

No I think they have 2 A320s based in either PTP or FDF (forget which) to operate the routes between the French islands and to MIA. They've been doing that for decades. Before the A320s they used 727s, 737s and Caravelles and probably propeller types originally. In 1983 they were using the 727-200.

For many years those were AF's only flights to MIA as they didn't start Paris-MIA service until sometime in the mid to late 1980s.

There have been quite a few threads on this subject. This is the most recent one just a couple of months ago.
Air France In Miami In The 1960s-70s. (by doulasc Oct 9 2012 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2013-01-01 17:40:58]

User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1606 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 11595 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
No I think they have 2 A320s based in either PTP or FDF (forget which) to operate the routes between the French islands and to MIA.

The 320s are indeed based at PTP, the FDF operations obviously use the birds rotating to/from PTP.


User currently offlinemirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11384 times:
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Can anyone define the terms
NGO and
VFR used above regarging types of traffic into/out of PAP?

Yep, the flights out of NY are always full and never seen it priced less than $500 R/T either.



Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1606 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11372 times:

Quoting mirrodie (Reply 18):

Can anyone define the terms
NGO and
VFR used above regarging types of traffic into/out of PAP?

NGO = non-governmental organization (essentially, human aid and volunteer groups in this case)
VFR = visiting friends & relatives


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1843 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9696 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting mirrodie (Reply 18):
Yep, the flights out of NY are always full and never seen it priced less than $500 R/T either.

Up until around maybe 2008 or so, AA had exclusive rights to this route and the certainly charged accordingly espeically during holiday seasons.



The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently onlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9178 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 20):
Quoting mirrodie (Reply 18):
Yep, the flights out of NY are always full and never seen it priced less than $500 R/T either.

Up until around maybe 2008 or so, AA had exclusive rights to this route and the certainly charged accordingly espeically during holiday seasons.

I remember that. I also remember seeing the signs @ MIA for excusive checki-ins. Do they still not RON planes in Haiti. I read that the FA's do not leave the plane during turns.

I was also watching 'The Serpent and the Rainbow', and there is a great scene where they get on and start up a PA 727 in PAP.

[Edited 2013-01-02 05:17:02]


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlinesqsfo From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 8341 times:

For a minute I thought the Term VFR was referring to Visual Flight Rules!
Thanks for the clarification guys!


User currently offlineAirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 878 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7568 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Before the A320s they used 727s, 737s and Caravelles and probably propeller types originally. In 1983 they were using the 727-200.

And after the B727-200 AF used the B737-300, based in PTP. With an extensive network including at that time, flights to MIA, PAP, SDQ and from FDF to CCS, PBM, CAY, BEL.

Now the 320 are used to SDQ, MIA, PAP, CAY, FDF, PTP, sometimes PUJ and in the past SXM, SJU and even maybe HAV (not sure for HAV).


User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2668 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7292 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Before the A320s they used 727s, 737s and Caravelles and probably propeller types originally. In 1983 they were using the 727-200.

In the mid 1970's AF wet leased 737's from Western Airlines for their Caribbean services.


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25 mirrodie : Same here! And great reference to Serpent! The FA that used to fly the JFK-PAP route regularly lives around the block from me. She could tell you som
26 crank : When I lived there back in '96 AF operated both a 737-200 and a -300 series in the caribbean, I remember flying on the 300 on FDF-SDQ-PAP and back.
27 Post contains links matt : On a related note, Canadian-based Transat Holidays is now offering tour packages to Haiti. The last time Transat sent vacationers to Haiti was 23 year
28 Post contains links airbazar : Check out this other older thread. IB also used to have a similar operation at MIA until right after 9/11. Iberia MD-87 And Air France A320 At Miami.
29 jmw99ttu : I used to work the JFK-MIA-PAP-JFK turns when I was based at JFK in 2000/2001. The A300s were always packed to the rafters. Some of my favorite storie
30 surfandsnow : In terms of aviation, it can reasonably be assumed that the least stable, poorest, most corrupt, crime-ridden, dangerous countries are the most profit
31 Skywatcher : One of the many unusual things about Haiti is that there is no indigineous airline to provide local competition to the U.S. carriers (and TS/AC/AF). I
32 Fly2yyz : Transat has been operating once weekly from YUL-PAP for a while actually. For this package it is the first time that they are going to have a vacatio
33 United_fan : Umm,no thanks 'real' or 'beach' Haiti.
34 FI642 : The 763 is for cargo. BIG money. It's sad that Haiti has so many problems. I know several folks from there that are simply wonderful.
35 Jetskipper : United just announced today that with the January 12th schedule load, that the EWR-PAP route will be cancelled effective April 2013.
36 yyz717 : It's hard to believe PAP would be a tourist destination, especially as described above. How so? Chaotic disorder and inefficiency?
37 Post contains links Viscount724 : Recent article on Haiti tourism. http://articles.latimes.com/2012/nov...iness/la-fi-haiti-tourism-20121122 Excerpts: "If they sell beaches, sun and p
38 surfandsnow : I'm guessing part of this has to do with the fact that most Haitians and Haitians-Americans in the New York metropolitan area live in Brooklyn and Qu
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