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Is Port-Au-Prince (PAP) Really This Profitable?  
User currently offlinerising From United States of America, joined May 2010, 269 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 12615 times:

I was looking at the schedules of airlines, principally from the United States, to PAP and it's actually quite amazing, at least it was to me, the amount of flights available non-stop to Haiti. I can't imagine there is much if any tourist traffic. What is driving this demand?

From what I could see:

United sends a daily 738 from EWR.

AMR sends a three flights a day from Miami, a 738, 757, and a 763. From FLL they send two 738s. And lastly, from JFK, they send another 763.

Delta has a daily flight from JFK, and also has flights at other times from ATL.

Air France operates a daily A320 from MIA .

Insel Air fly a MD83 from MIA.

What's the attraction to PAP for airlines? Strong yields, loads? Where is this traffic coming from?


If it doesn't make sense, it's because it's not true.
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8060 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 12621 times:

Big expat community? Don't underestimate the scale of the NGO industry. PAP is a total magnet for those guys. Then again I am a bit surprised to see a 767-300 on the list and multiple dailies. Thanks for the interesting info. Other explanations from those who know the market better (is Wyclef Jean an a.netter?) will be interesting to read.


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlinedeltairlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8894 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12432 times:

Note that, with the exception of Delta's ATL flight (which is once a week for now, goes to 3x/wk this summer), the markets served are either in the New York or South Florida areas, both of which have strong local traffic bases to PAP.

User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1113 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12348 times:

Quoting rising (Thread starter):
Air France operates a daily A320 from MIA .

Do they have full rights on that route or is it just to connect to CDG?


User currently offlineroswell41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12330 times:

NK flies FLL to PAP six times a week too.

User currently offlinedeltairlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8894 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12305 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 3):
Do they have full rights on that route or is it just to connect to CDG?

Full rights. The flight continues on to PTP. The timings on it don't allow for connections to CDG in Miami (it's a morning flight out of MIA and a late evening arrival).


User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1113 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12276 times:

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 5):
Full rights. The flight continues on to PTP. The timings on it don't allow for connections to CDG in Miami (it's a morning flight out of MIA and a late evening arrival).

So is it because PTP is a French territory, technically it is then France-US?


User currently offlinedeltairlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8894 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12249 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 6):
So is it because PTP is a French territory, technically it is then France-US?

Not from the PAP perspective as AF has full traffic rights on MIA-PAP.


User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12189 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 1):
Then again I am a bit surprised to see a 767-300 on the list and multiple dailies.

And it was a religious AB3 station before they were retired. PAP has tremendous VFR traffic from NYC and South Florida. A lot of cargo and luggage is carried as well. I know NK also had started the route before. A dental colleague of mine is Haitian and she would travel frequently to PAP from BNA where we were in dental school. She took NK once but usually she would fly American.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineflyjoe From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 12153 times:

PAP is a unique market. There's a lot of VFR traffic, along with mission/relief travel. I myself have been to PAP three times on church mission trips and headed back later this year. The flights are always packed, whether it's a 738, 763 or A300. It's amazing to see the amount of personal items that are carried by pax from the US. When our group goes, we make full use of the 50 lb / 2 bag limit and sometimes a few excess bags if we need for our trip.

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7123 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 11959 times:

Quoting flyjoe (Reply 9):
There's a lot of VFR traffic, along with mission/relief travel.


Exactly.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 1):
I am a bit surprised to see a 767-300 on the list and multiple dailies.


It used to be multiple A300s to PAP from JFK and MIA on AA before they retired. Tons of cargo on the route and the passengers bring tons of bags. AA even had an A300 on FLL-PAP for a bit of time.

At MIA PAP has its own dedicated check in space for its flights. The amount of baggage PAP passengers have is crazy. I have seen the flight load many times and it is over 50% VFR traffic. The Haitian community in South Florida is HUGE. Tons of people going to see family in Miami or Haiti. Given that there is some business traffic also even though I can't think it would be too much because Haiti is such a poor country. The rest of the flight is filled with NGO workers, doctors, mission trips etc.. There is a lot of charity and NGO organizations down there so given there are not really too many flights to chose from it makes sense some of these flights are full.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 11961 times:

I wonder if the high crime and extremely poor market (pre and post earthquake), whether PAP also has barriers to entryfor new carriers that serve to increase the profit of carriers already in the markets?


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 11941 times:

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 7):
Quoting LOWS (Reply 6):
So is it because PTP is a French territory, technically it is then France-US?

Not from the PAP perspective as AF has full traffic rights on MIA-PAP.

Fifth freedom rights only. AF couldn't operate a stand-alone MIA-PAP flight. PAP has to be an intermediate stop en route to PTP (or FDF or CAY if they operated those directly) since Guadeloupe, Martinique and French Guiana are part of France.

Quoting flyjoe (Reply 9):
PAP is a unique market. There's a lot of VFR traffic, along with mission/relief travel.

Not sure if it's changed recently but a high percentage of taxi drivers in Montreal used to be Haitian.


User currently offlinerising From United States of America, joined May 2010, 269 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 11939 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):

Interesting. Does AA have their own station there with their own employees, or are they contracted? I would think flight crews simply return on the same flights- no overnight stays?



If it doesn't make sense, it's because it's not true.
User currently offlineflyjoe From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 11896 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):
It used to be multiple A300s to PAP from JFK and MIA on AA before they retired.

Here is a picture I took in 2008 as I boarded my flight with three A-300s on the ground.
Quoting rising (Reply 13):
Does AA have their own station there with their own employees, or are they contracted?

The customer service agents were AA staff the last time I was there in 2010. I'm sure the ramp is contracted.


User currently offlineirshava From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 11687 times:

Quoting rising (Thread starter):
Air France operates a daily A320 from MIA

With an A320? How does that work... they base one of their aircraft from France in Haiti? Never knew this..



“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 11646 times:

Quoting irshava (Reply 15):
Quoting rising (Thread starter):
Air France operates a daily A320 from MIA

With an A320? How does that work... they base one of their aircraft from France in Haiti? Never knew this..

No I think they have 2 A320s based in either PTP or FDF (forget which) to operate the routes between the French islands and to MIA. They've been doing that for decades. Before the A320s they used 727s, 737s and Caravelles and probably propeller types originally. In 1983 they were using the 727-200.

For many years those were AF's only flights to MIA as they didn't start Paris-MIA service until sometime in the mid to late 1980s.

There have been quite a few threads on this subject. This is the most recent one just a couple of months ago.
Air France In Miami In The 1960s-70s. (by doulasc Oct 9 2012 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2013-01-01 17:40:58]

User currently onlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1610 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 11605 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
No I think they have 2 A320s based in either PTP or FDF (forget which) to operate the routes between the French islands and to MIA.

The 320s are indeed based at PTP, the FDF operations obviously use the birds rotating to/from PTP.


User currently offlinemirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 11394 times:
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Can anyone define the terms
NGO and
VFR used above regarging types of traffic into/out of PAP?

Yep, the flights out of NY are always full and never seen it priced less than $500 R/T either.



Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently onlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1610 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 11382 times:

Quoting mirrodie (Reply 18):

Can anyone define the terms
NGO and
VFR used above regarging types of traffic into/out of PAP?

NGO = non-governmental organization (essentially, human aid and volunteer groups in this case)
VFR = visiting friends & relatives


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1856 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9706 times:
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Quoting mirrodie (Reply 18):
Yep, the flights out of NY are always full and never seen it priced less than $500 R/T either.

Up until around maybe 2008 or so, AA had exclusive rights to this route and the certainly charged accordingly espeically during holiday seasons.



The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently onlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7453 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 9188 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 20):
Quoting mirrodie (Reply 18):
Yep, the flights out of NY are always full and never seen it priced less than $500 R/T either.

Up until around maybe 2008 or so, AA had exclusive rights to this route and the certainly charged accordingly espeically during holiday seasons.

I remember that. I also remember seeing the signs @ MIA for excusive checki-ins. Do they still not RON planes in Haiti. I read that the FA's do not leave the plane during turns.

I was also watching 'The Serpent and the Rainbow', and there is a great scene where they get on and start up a PA 727 in PAP.

[Edited 2013-01-02 05:17:02]


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlinesqsfo From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8351 times:

For a minute I thought the Term VFR was referring to Visual Flight Rules!
Thanks for the clarification guys!


User currently offlineAirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 879 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 7578 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Before the A320s they used 727s, 737s and Caravelles and probably propeller types originally. In 1983 they were using the 727-200.

And after the B727-200 AF used the B737-300, based in PTP. With an extensive network including at that time, flights to MIA, PAP, SDQ and from FDF to CCS, PBM, CAY, BEL.

Now the 320 are used to SDQ, MIA, PAP, CAY, FDF, PTP, sometimes PUJ and in the past SXM, SJU and even maybe HAV (not sure for HAV).


User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7302 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Before the A320s they used 727s, 737s and Caravelles and probably propeller types originally. In 1983 they were using the 727-200.

In the mid 1970's AF wet leased 737's from Western Airlines for their Caribbean services.


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User currently offlinemirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7683 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting sqsfo (Reply 22):
For a minute I thought the Term VFR was referring to Visual Flight Rules!
Thanks for the clarification guys!

Same here! And great reference to Serpent!

The FA that used to fly the JFK-PAP route regularly lives around the block from me. She could tell you some effin stories about those flights!



Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlinecrank From Canada, joined May 2001, 1559 posts, RR: 2
Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7627 times:

When I lived there back in '96 AF operated both a 737-200 and a -300 series in the caribbean, I remember flying on the 300 on FDF-SDQ-PAP and back.

User currently offlinematt From Canada, joined May 1999, 693 posts, RR: 2
Reply 27, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7706 times:

On a related note, Canadian-based Transat Holidays is now offering tour packages to Haiti. The last time Transat sent vacationers to Haiti was 23 years ago.

http://www.transatholidays.com/en/Ha...ection-Duo-Haiti?ID=26251&tmpl=DO#

Here is an article about it in the Toronto Star:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/arti...acationers-to-haiti-after-23-years

Matt



Next flights: YQM-YYZ-YOW v.v. / YQM-CUN v.v. / YQM-YUL-YWG v.v. / YSJ-YYZ-SEA-SFO / SFO-YYZ-YOW-YQM / YQM-YYZ-MUC-TXL /
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8212 posts, RR: 10
Reply 28, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6814 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 3):
Do they have full rights on that route or is it just to connect to CDG?

Check out this other older thread. IB also used to have a similar operation at MIA until right after 9/11.
Iberia MD-87 And Air France A320 At Miami... (by Twa902fly Dec 13 2001 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlinejmw99ttu From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6736 times:

I used to work the JFK-MIA-PAP-JFK turns when I was based at JFK in 2000/2001. The A300s were always packed to the rafters. Some of my favorite stories from my flying days involve those flights. I really grew to love the Haitian people on those trips. They would certainly drive you crazy, but in a nice and endearing way.

We were allowed to leave the plane and go into the terminal, but that was it. There was a restaurant there that had good pizza. If a flight canceled they would bump passengers off the next flight to get the crew out. It was extremely rare for crews to overnight there. AC also flew an A340 in there from YUL or YYZ and I believe it was a turn for them as well. I don't think their service was daily though.


User currently offlinesurfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2855 posts, RR: 30
Reply 30, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4349 times:

In terms of aviation, it can reasonably be assumed that the least stable, poorest, most corrupt, crime-ridden, dangerous countries are the most profitable for airlines. The likes of Haiti are a gold mine for American carriers, much like Central African nations are a boon for their European counterparts. Airlines charge what the market will bear - people have to visit friends and relatives, or conduct business, or get out. Local government restrictions and other operational challenges tend to keep competition to a minimum - barriers to entry that allow incumbent airlines to function much like highly profitable patent-protected pharmaceutical manufacturers!

On the other hand, open free markets that tend to be the most wealthy, peaceful, beautiful places on earth are often marginal, at best. New Zealand, Luxembourg, Scandinavia, etc. are great examples. Businesses are very conscious of expenses, rarely shelling out money for F, or in some cases discouraging travel whenever possible. Consumers are educated, and have tools like travel websites to always get the best deal. They can always postpone that vacation for any reason. New entrants can easily raise capital to inject competition to the marketplace, and existing airlines can easily start or increase service as they please. Many airlines don't even find it worthwhile to serve these markets at all!

Haiti is now served by all 3 major U.S. legacy/network airlines, and NK as well. Not to mention other foreign players operating fifth freedom services. I daresay it won't be much longer before B6 adds JFK-PAP - they have a knack for serving the toughest VFR Caribbean markets!



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineSkywatcher From Canada, joined Sep 2002, 456 posts, RR: 4
Reply 31, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3954 times:

One of the many unusual things about Haiti is that there is no indigineous airline to provide local competition to the U.S. carriers (and TS/AC/AF).
I took an AA A-300 to PAP from Miami and back about 20 years ago. The crew (American) and the passengers (overwhelmingly Haitian) might as well been from different planets.They could barely communicate with each other and I think I had to go through 5 different security checks before being allowed on the plane in PAP.The chaos in the PAP airport was extreme.
It was a unique experience but it's certainly not for everybody. Haiti is really just so hopeless. It was bad 20 years ago and it's far worse now. When you're approching the island you can see the soil draining from the land massively into the Caribean sea and the very noticible straight line on the border with the Dominican Republic (Haiti = stripped of trees, DR = forested).


User currently offlineFly2yyz From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 1038 posts, RR: 2
Reply 32, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3942 times:

Quoting matt (Reply 27):
On a related note, Canadian-based Transat Holidays is now offering tour packages to Haiti. The last time Transat sent vacationers to Haiti was 23 years ago.

Transat has been operating once weekly from YUL-PAP for a while actually. For this package it is the first time that they are going to have a vacation package for guests to spend time on the beaches there as well as spend time seeing the "real" Haiti.


User currently onlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7453 posts, RR: 7
Reply 33, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3769 times:

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 32):
For this package it is the first time that they are going to have a vacation package for guests to spend time on the beaches there as well as spend time seeing the "real" Haiti.

Umm,no thanks 'real' or 'beach' Haiti.



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 34, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3765 times:

The 763 is for cargo. BIG money. It's sad that Haiti has so many problems. I know several
folks from there that are simply wonderful.



737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlineJetskipper From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3718 times:

United just announced today that with the January 12th schedule load, that the EWR-PAP route will be cancelled effective April 2013.

User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 36, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3408 times:

Quoting matt (Reply 27):
On a related note, Canadian-based Transat Holidays is now offering tour packages to Haiti. The last time Transat sent vacationers to Haiti was 23 years ago.

http://www.transatholidays.com/en/Ha...l=DO#

It's hard to believe PAP would be a tourist destination, especially as described above.

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 31):
The chaos in the PAP airport was extreme.

How so? Chaotic disorder and inefficiency?



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 37, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2936 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
It's hard to believe PAP would be a tourist destination, especially as described above.

Recent article on Haiti tourism.
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/nov...iness/la-fi-haiti-tourism-20121122

Excerpts:

"If they sell beaches, sun and palm trees, they're going to lose," said Bruce Turkel, a Miami-based marketing expert who has worked as a brand consultant for Puerto Rico. "There are plenty of audiences that will go to Haiti happily, like adventure travelers and cultural tourists, whether they're interested in music or art. That's what Haiti needs to concentrate on."

Some entrepreneurs are pinning their hopes on adventure travel, a potentially lucrative market that taps travelers who may be more forgiving of the country's famously rough roads and dicey infrastructure.

"Slowly, the word is spreading out: 'Hey, it's not as bad as you think,'" Kiracofe said. "Haiti is pristine in many ways."


User currently offlinesurfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2855 posts, RR: 30
Reply 38, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2789 times:

Quoting Jetskipper (Reply 35):

I'm guessing part of this has to do with the fact that most Haitians and Haitians-Americans in the New York metropolitan area live in Brooklyn and Queens. As such, the longstanding AA JFK-PAP service and DL's JFK-PAP (offered since 2009) are much more convenient for this population than getting across Manhattan to EWR. New Jersey does have its own Haitian population - the fourth largest in the U.S., after Florida, New York, and Boston - but I guess it wasn't enough to support the UA service.

Despite UA withdrawing from PAP after less than 2 years of service, I still think PAP would be a great market for B6. They have been very successful with the tough Caribbean VFR markets - I can't imagine PAP would pose many more challenges than KIN, STI, or PSE. They could do PAP from a combination of JFK, FLL, and BOS, which are not only their strongest hub/focus city markets but also the three largest Haitian diaspora centers in the U.S.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
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