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Skymark Japan Applies For A380 Service To The US  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25369 posts, RR: 49
Posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 24273 times:

Skymark Airlines today applied with the DOT for authority to offer scheduled service between between Japan and New York.

Skymark states is desires to introduce service between Tokyo Narita and New York JFK utilizing A380 aircraft during the second half of 2014.

Skymarks advises it request this relative early authorization for it to commence advance marketing and sales activities to position itself for the introduction of the planned low-cost service.

Additionally Skymark also states it is reviewing the opportunity for introduction of other US scheduled markets using its on order fleet of A330 and A380 aircraft and would apply for those separately.


Proposed schedule:

NRT-JFK 1030-1000
JFK-NRT 1200-1430+1


OST-2010-0096


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
81 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemesaflyguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3127 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 24247 times:
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Interesting, I still never understood why Skymark ordered the a380. They seem like too small of an airline to warrant such a big plane. But, I guess if you tap into the right market, which JFK-TYO is probably a big-enough market for them, they can make some money.


\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlineWingtips56 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 24128 times:

Isn't Skymark planning to configure the A380 pretty much to the maximum capacity, i.e. 800+ seats? Can there be that much LCC demand for TYO-NYC?


Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines
User currently onlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 710 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 24018 times:

I'm sure there is demand if they price it appropriately.

User currently offlinekeuleatr72 From Germany, joined Apr 2008, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 23920 times:

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 2):
ure the A380 pretty much to the maximum capacity, i.e. 800+ seats? Can there be that much LCC demand for TYO-NYC?

IIRC, Skymark will operate the A380 with around 400 seats. I think you mean Air Austral. They have chosen to equip their birds with 800 seats.


User currently offlineVCy From Cyprus, joined Dec 2012, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 23881 times:
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Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 2):
Isn't Skymark planning to configure the A380 pretty much to the maximum capacity, i.e. 800+ seats? Can there be that much LCC demand for TYO-NYC?

nope, 394 http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...ernational-expansion-update1-.html


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25369 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 23753 times:

Actually they have not decided on the capacity configuration -

Their application specifically states --
"The final seating configuration of each A380 in Skymark's fleet has not been determined. Skymark anticipates making a decision on the configuration by mid 2013."

If they are indeed pursuing a lower cost model for these flights, I would think they would have a relative dense configuration.


Also regarding the market - NYC-TYO has about 500,000 local annual O&D travelers.
Yes its a declining market (like much of US-Japan), but for the right price I am sure they should be able to stimulate demand.
With a cheap enough price NYC can be a wonderful shopping, or weekend trip for the Japanese, especially the younger crowd which would be more open to a LCC concept.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinejbmitt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 547 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 23632 times:

Quoting keuleatr72 (Reply 4):
I think you mean Air Austral. They have chosen to equip their birds with 800 seats.

I doubt Air Austral will ever take the a380. They couldn't take their last 772LR that went to Iraq instead.


User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 966 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 23459 times:
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So basically they're going with NRT-JFK instead of NRT-LAX because Tokyo-L.A is saturated, but is not like NRT-JFK is under served either

well good luck to them


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25369 posts, RR: 49
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 23274 times:

So with 10 A330s and 6 A380s on the way, what are the other markets do we think Skymark is looking at in the US?

I would think if they are indeed following a more LCC concept that HNL could be natural fit, using an A380 even.

Also something to West Coast either using the 330 or 380 would be a natural market from Japan.

Considering lack of tie-ins with other carriers or domestic feed at NRT, Skymark would need to focus and tap in to existing large markets for its long-haul aspirations.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineWingtips56 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 23231 times:

Quoting keuleatr72 (Reply 4):
IIRC, Skymark will operate the A380 with around 400 seats. I think you mean Air Austral. They have chosen to equip their birds with 800 seats.

OK. Thanks.



Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines
User currently offlinetravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3503 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 23182 times:

Quoting keuleatr72 (Reply 4):
IIRC, Skymark will operate the A380 with around 400 seats. I think you mean Air Austral. They have chosen to equip their birds with 800 seats.

As LAXIntl said, if Skymark is going for the mass market budget traveler, they're going to have to configure the plane with way more than 400 seats. If AF can fit 516 seats on their A380, I would think Skymark would be able to put at least 550 if not 600+...

NYC-Tokyo seems like a tough market to break into for an airline that has little to no brand awareness in the US, and several entrenched competitors already serving it.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30986 posts, RR: 86
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 23093 times:
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Quoting keuleatr72 (Reply 4):
IIRC, Skymark will operate the A380 with around 400 seats.

Their original suggested configuration was 114 Business Class and 280 Economy.


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21529 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 22797 times:

Call them Tokyo Tower Air.

Thank you and good night.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 22755 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
So with 10 A330s and 6 A380s on the way, what are the other markets do we think Skymark is looking at in the US?

KOA-TYO?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinespinkid From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 22710 times:

They will have to offer pretty low fares to make this work. You get an awful lot of FF miles for a JFK-NRT routing, even for someone like myself who isn't fully married to my FF program.

User currently offlinemalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 22663 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 13):
Call them Tokyo Tower Air

lol! took me a second to notice :P I remember flying Tower Air and its 747 operation



There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlineMEL From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 1098 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 22240 times:

I think the whole idea of Skymark operating A380s is extremely bizarre, especially if the A380 ends up having a large-sized premium cabin (more than 50 seats). I expect premium pax in Japan would have strong loyalty towards JL+NH, and 99% of premium pax (or all pax for that matter) in the US haven't even heard of Skymark.

Didn't the company even decide to shut down its Osaka Kansai operation? They can't even make a market the size of Osaka work?

Hawaii-Tokyo is probably the only market I think might work for Skymark, with A330-300 aircraft in an "Air Asia X-type" configuration.



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User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8152 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 21956 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
With a cheap enough price NYC can be a wonderful shopping, or weekend trip for the Japanese, especially the younger crowd which would be more open to a LCC concept.

One of the largest travel agencies in Japan, H.I.S, has a ~30% stake in Skymark, so that is probably the only leg standing under the table of their business plan. But Japanese consumers are increasingly moving away from consolidators in recent years, so this doesn't seem like a sure bet at all.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 13):
Thank you and good night.

Basically, yes. The Japanese business press basically thinks Nishikubo-san, Skymark's founder and leader, is out of his friggin mind.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 21715 times:

This has train wreck written all over it. Business travelers are going to stick with NH, JL, UA DL etc who can offer them an expanded network and perks. That leaves the low yield budget traveler. I wish them luck - they are going to need every bit of it.

User currently offlineFlyboyOz From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 1985 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 21589 times:

Would that be interested in to know how much the airfare is!!


The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 21562 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Skymark states is desires to introduce service between Tokyo Narita and New York JFK utilizing A380 aircraft during the second half of 2014.

   buddy of mine is currently training to be an A380 pilot and he said that he should be taking the 380 to JFK for "proving routes" once they get it delivered. It should be the first routes utilized by Skymark's A380s.

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 2):
Isn't Skymark planning to configure the A380 pretty much to the maximum capacity, i.e. 800+ seats? Can there be that much LCC demand for TYO-NYC?
Quoting VCy (Reply 5):
nope, 394

They may be a LCC but they are marketing this as the most luxurious route to the US. I'm not sure how well this is going to do, but the Japanese business community seems enthused about it. I hope the price is right; I'm currently doing research right now on how much this is going to be. Obviously Skymark is not allowed marketing a price until the DOT gives them permission.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineirshava From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 21520 times:

Quoting keuleatr72 (Reply 4):
I think you mean Air Austral. They have chosen to equip their birds with 800 seats.

They have also chosen to cancel those orders.  



“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4919 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 21438 times:

My money is on Skymark going belly up... Either JL or NH will pick up the slack & probably keep the A380s and sell off the A330s considering neither operator has the type in their fleet...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 556 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 20957 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):

I thought it was going to be an all Y+ product when they first announced it? Either way its the lowest density A380 planned yet.



Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 22082 times:

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 24):
I thought it was going to be an all Y+ product when they first announced it? Either way its the lowest density A380 planned yet.
Quoting EK413 (Reply 23):
My money is on Skymark going belly up
Quoting phxa340 (Reply 19):
This has train wreck written all over it.
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 13):
Call them Tokyo Tower Air.

You guys forget that Skymark is probably the most popular LCC in Japan. A lot of people are complaining that NH and JL are wayyyyyyyy too expensive, and with Skymark's codesharing with DL, this has a LOT of potential if it is played properly.

Plus, knowing how Japan markets things, they will market this service as the "First Japanese A380" or something (even though IIRC SQ, MH, and KE all have operated the 380 to the US in the past from NRT)

A rumor I heard was that Skymark was going to begin a flight to ATL or DTW in order to expand its relationship with DL.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
One of the largest travel agencies in Japan, H.I.S, has a ~30% stake in Skymark, so that is probably the only leg standing under the table of their business plan.

HIS is a growing travel company too so Im pretty sure this is going to only influence Skymark more.


Just for reference, Skymark's IATA code is BC.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 21599 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 25):

We're not forgetting anything , an LCC flying an A380 with sub 450 seats is suicide. By your logic that popularity equals profits , Virgin America should be making money hand over fist.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8368 posts, RR: 10
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 21777 times:

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 1):
Interesting, I still never understood why Skymark ordered the a380.

Their biggest investor is a Japanese travel company. They intende to offer long haul low cost service. If they do it as part of packaged tours and less as a standalone airline, it coudl work.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
If they are indeed pursuing a lower cost model for these flights, I would think they would have a relative dense configuration.

   If they try to go premium they'll be dead on arrival.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
So with 10 A330s and 6 A380s on the way, what are the other markets do we think Skymark is looking at in the US?

I'd say JFK, MCO, HNL at least. Maybe LAX.
Maybe a triangle route NRT-MCO-JFK-NRT, would work, but they need a lot more than 400 seats.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 21403 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 27):
Maybe a triangle route NRT-MCO-JFK-NRT, would work, but they need a lot more than 400 seats.

If you are going to do something like that might as well make MCO a tag on from JFK (so in other words NRT-JFK-MCO-JFK-NRT), not a triangle route. Your proposed routing is only attractive to people going to/from MCO.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8152 posts, RR: 26
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 20996 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 25):
HIS is a growing travel company too



They were only growing the last couple of years because of the strong yen. Now it's heading north again. Travel agencies as a whole have been struggling the last 5 years as Rakuten and Yahoo.jp have beefed up their package and reservations offerings.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 25):
A lot of people are complaining that NH and JL are wayyyyyyyy too expensive

You mean 20-somethings with small incomes. The other thing working against players like Skymark is all of the major banks and card networks like AEON, JCB, and Edy have programs tied into JAL and ANA mileage points.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 20868 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 29):
You mean 20-somethings with small incomes. The other thing working against players like Skymark is all of the major banks and card networks like AEON, JCB, and Edy have programs tied into JAL and ANA mileage points.

Well my contacts are a variety of people, not just college students. A buddy of mine works for a trading company in Nagoya and told me every time he comes to Los Angeles he flies with SQ because it's the cheapest option with the best quality service.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3629 posts, RR: 12
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 20747 times:

Quoting travelin man (Reply 11):
NYC-Tokyo seems like a tough market to break into for an airline that has little to no brand awareness in the US, and several entrenched competitors already serving it.

I would think awareness in the US is not really a factor. They're a Japanese airline and their primary market will be Japanese travelers in both directions. Even on ANA and JAL, which you'd probably say have much higher brand awareness here, whenever I fly the only Americans on board are confused code sharers trying to figure out the meal options... and me.

New York has a huge Japanese population and most of them are young and poor. They scrimped and saved and came here because they feel stifled in Japan, but a lot of them end up going back permanently out of disillusionment and the ones who don't still want to visit their friends and family more often than they can flying on full-service fares. That's going to be the market for an LCC. Whether there's enough there to fill an A380 on an ongoing basis, I dunno. I didn't see the frequency this was planned to be offered, which makes a difference.

Also, the tie-in with HIS is going to help too. Every Japanese person I know (which is probably around 100 people total) has used HIS at one time or another. They're not the only travel agency out there but they are big in Japan, and among Japanese in New York (where HIS also has an office).



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 20720 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 31):
Also, the tie-in with HIS is going to help too. Every Japanese person I know (which is probably around 100 people total) has used HIS at one time or another. They're not the only travel agency out there but they are big in Japan, and among Japanese in New York (where HIS also has an office).

This is the zinger for my friends here in the US: HIS is what nearly ALL of my Japanese friends have used to get back and forth between Japan and the US.

Just some notes here, I just asked a total of 200 of my Japanese contacts on Facebook what they think of this new service, and I am waiting for responses. Obviously this is an unofficial poll but as I previously stated my contacts are varied and diverse in Japan.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39884 posts, RR: 74
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 20559 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 19):
That leaves the low yield budget traveler.


Wouldn't SFO and LAX be a better market for budget travellers to & from Japan?

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 13):
Call them Tokyo Tower Air.


Tower Air used old planes. Although I never flew them, all the complaints I heard about Tower Air was the age of their aircraft. Brand new A380s shouldn't have any issues.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 20523 times:
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Quoting travelin man (Reply 11):
If AF can fit 516 seats on their A380, I would think Skymark would be able to put at least 550 if not 600+...

I would lower the bar to 450 as the minimum, but I agree that Skymark must go dense or go home.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 13):

Call them Tokyo Tower Air.

Thank you and good night.

The only similarity is that Skymark also has VLAs. Skymark also has some 'mind share' in Japan and the tie up with HIS is something Tower didn't have. The current Japanese economy won't help... But if they do offer a true LCC price/configuration, I know quite a few who will use them.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 27):
If they try to go premium they'll be dead on arrival.

Some premium would work. The original high premium is a non-starter and was only for PR.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 20436 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
Wouldn't SFO and LAX be a better market for budget travellers to & from Japan?

Skymark is intending on sending the 380 to LAX and the 330 to SFO.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 20217 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 25):

You here lots of rumors apparently , I'm still waiting for your last one to come true of DL buying TN  


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 20150 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 36):
I'm still waiting for your last one to come true of DL buying TN

   I was never expecting that to actually happen. As I stated countless times in that thread, I thought it was so crazy that I had to share it.
Either way, it makes sense. If BC makes it big, let's say it does, and they join an alliance, Skyteam is the best bet IMO.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8152 posts, RR: 26
Reply 38, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 19885 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 31):
Even on ANA and JAL, which you'd probably say have much higher brand awareness here, whenever I fly the only Americans on board are confused code sharers trying to figure out the meal options... and me.

LOL - my relatives from CA would be among those always confused about the meals. I always bring them over on NH.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 30):
A buddy of mine works for a trading company in Nagoya

Right, so if his company does OK and he's in his early 30s or younger, he's still making around $65K or less. That was my point.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
Skymark also has some 'mind share' in Japan and the tie up with HIS is something Tower didn't have.

The H.I.S. website is currently quoting prices in the 75,000 yen range for a weekday roundtrip to NYC from the Tokyo area in a quiet travel period in March - and that's the cheapest for DL/UA. Considering 30,000 yen of that goes to agent fees, taxes, and the fuel surcharge, that leaves a base fare of around 45,000 yen - or around $550. If Skymark undercuts by 10-15% it's going to be tough to get the numbers to work pretty quick.

[Edited 2013-01-02 21:33:09]


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 39, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 19721 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 38):
Right, so if his company does OK and he's in his early 30s or younger, he's still making around $65K or less. That was my point.

Which sortof brings my point too. Most of my Japanese friends have responded with a "yes" to if they would fly Skymark if their service was good.

One person told me though that she was concerned that if it's a LCC, then some of the luxuries of a mainliner may be sacrifice. One worried the plane would be overcramped....her reaction when I told her it was a 380 with around 380 seats was priceless.... it does bring up your other point... she said "how are they going to make money on that?"

But think about it...it's a lighter-weight A380, less fuel charges.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21529 posts, RR: 59
Reply 40, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 19666 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):

Tower Air was started in conjunction with an American based Isreal tour operation and didn't have new planes, they certainly weren't ancient in 1983 either. They just got old over time. Their model was based on tours and charters on vla to very specific markets to give an alternative to existing established carriers.

How you can say Skymark has nothing in common is weird. They have a lot more in common than they do with a lot of other carriers. And let's see how their A380s look after 10-20 years, if they last that long.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 41, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 19604 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 40):
How you can say Skymark has nothing in common is weird. They have a lot more in common than they do with a lot of other carriers. And let's see how their A380s look after 10-20 years, if they last that long.

Not so fast here: Sure BC is associated with H.I.S., but H.I.S. is a very diverse group too. They're not a tour guide group entirely.
even though they shut off ops at KIX and focused at ITM, they are still a lot of times used by biz travelers to get from TYO to Kansai quickly. The Shinkansen may be fast, but it still isn't as quick as a quick hop from HND to ITM.

Other popular applications of BC are flying domestic at a very cheap flight, or the quick flight up to TYO for a business meeting, or school trips going to CTS, Akita, etc etc.

They're quite diverse IMO.

Here's some links on BC:
http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/skymark.htm

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic...-Tokyo_Tokyo_Prefecture_Kanto.html

Pretty good reviews, if you ask me.

http://www.skymark.co.jp/en/
Here's their website if you guys don't quite know.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2048 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 18037 times:

If Skymarks plan doesn't work, looks like we may have the first used A380s pop up on the market pretty soon...


Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlinebthebest From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2008, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17018 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
Their original suggested configuration was 114 Business Class and 280 Economy.

If they did something like 94 Business (top deck, a la KE) and 427 (main deck, a la EK) I think they could make it work. Splitting the decks completely you could have a really good Business product whilst keeping the costs a little lower than competitors. With no competition from other Japanese airlines for the A380 specifically, they just need to undercut SQ to get a decent market share.

Edit: SQ point only relevant if they operate to LAX. Yes, AA and DL operate route as well but they fall in line with JL and NH in not operating the A380 either.

[Edited 2013-01-03 02:49:10]

User currently onlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1884 posts, RR: 4
Reply 44, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 16361 times:

On one hand, it is difficult to argue with those, who believe Skymark launching their service to New York with A380 is too much.

On the other hand - remember how Virgin Atlantic came to existance. One plane (747), one route (LHR-JFK). The rest is history.

I am positive certain haters in this thread would praise the airline for this announcement, had Skymark ordered 747-8i or 777-300ERs instead...



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1737 posts, RR: 1
Reply 45, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 15489 times:

I thought Skymark wanted to use the aircraft on routes to Europe too, more specifically London.

Considering no other long haul airline can really make it work at LGW apart from VS and BA (the latter being questionable), I imagine they will hold out for LHR slots before sending the A380 there.



Next Flights: LHR-OSL (319-BA), OSL-LHR (319-BA), LHR-CPH (320-BA), VXO-BMA (S20-TF), ARN-CPH (738-SK), CPH-LHR (320-BA)
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8368 posts, RR: 10
Reply 46, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 15201 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 28):
If you are going to do something like that might as well make MCO a tag on from JFK (so in other words NRT-JFK-MCO-JFK-NRT), not a triangle route. Your proposed routing is only attractive to people going to/from MCO.

Well, the point is that visiting multiple cities is a common characteristic of Japanese tourists and skymark can't sell tickets between 2 US cities, so a triangle route is more favorale than a tag. I suggested a trianlge route to MCO and JFK on top of a dedicated service to JFK, not instead of it. In my example, MCO would be the primary destination.


User currently offlinegdg9 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 15206 times:

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 3):
m sure there is demand if they price it appropriately.

In 2010 I snagged a $456 r/t with taxes EWR--DTW-NRT fare. Hadn't thought about going to Tokyo but the fare was so cheap how could I not? Wednesday travel to and from on the 747.

If the fares are cheap, I suspect you'll find some leisure travelers.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13120 posts, RR: 100
Reply 48, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 14589 times:
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Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 38):
If Skymark undercuts by 10-15% it's going to be tough to get the numbers to work pretty quick.

What are the fares peak season?

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 40):
How you can say Skymark has nothing in common is weird. They have a lot more in common than they do with a lot of other carriers. And let's see how their A380s look after 10-20 years, if they last that long.

First, I didn't say they had nothing in common. I just do not see the level of commonality you wish to imply.

Does Skymark have an executive in charge of operations with zero airline experience a la Tower? IMHO putting incompetent relatives in key positions at Tower is part of what doomed them. Not the 747. The nepotism at Tower is why that name will never be revived in aviation.

But the 747 has the same CASM as the 763ER while the A388 has about 14% lower CASM than the 77W. Big with no CASM benefit is done. And most of Skymark's flights will be on smaller metal. That is a huge difference with Tower.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 49, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 14018 times:

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 44):
On the other hand - remember how Virgin Atlantic came to existance. One plane (747), one route (LHR-JFK). The rest is history.

It wasn't even that good. The route was LGW-EWR, and with very low prices. Standby as low as £99. But VS entered a growing market, while from all accounts the U.S. - Japan market has been in decline for the past decade without signs of turning around any time soon.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8152 posts, RR: 26
Reply 50, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 13927 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 48):
What are the fares peak season?

to North America and Europe, the travel agencies usually offer a limited number of fares in the $850 - $1100 range at peak times, with JL and NH usually $200 north of those figures at a minimum. Beach markets like Hawaii and Bali are often higher than that.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 49):
while from all accounts the U.S. - Japan market has been in decline for the past decade without signs of turning around any time soon

This is the biggest problem. Japan is greying and the under 40 generation is going to be much less wealthy than their parents. This is not going to turn around anytime soon, if ever.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 51, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 13597 times:

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 44):

I don't think anyone on here is saying the A380 is the problem but the company using it and how they are using it is the problem.


User currently onlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 52, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 13379 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 41):
even though they shut off ops at KIX and focused at ITM, they are still a lot of times used by biz travelers to get from TYO to Kansai quickly. The Shinkansen may be fast, but it still isn't as quick as a quick hop from HND to ITM.

Skymark doesn't serve ITM, either. They have placed their eggs in the UKB (Kobe) basket for the greater Osaka area.


User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3629 posts, RR: 12
Reply 53, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 13020 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 49):
the U.S. - Japan market has been in decline for the past decade without signs of turning around any time soon.
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 50):
Japan is greying and the under 40 generation is going to be much less wealthy than their parents. This is not going to turn around anytime soon, if ever.

Well, both of those statements are overdramatized and don't really consider the reasons behind the decline in travel. (Most of the news we get in the west about Japan is overdramatized too; daily life for most in Japan is the same or better than it was 20 years ago.) The economies of both the US and Japan are the biggest factor behind the decline in travel, and most travel to and from Japan and the US is still business travel. Skymark is not going for that market... or at least I assume they aren't, as an LCC, and they'd be stupid to try because ANA and JAL have that market locked up with their planes that are about 70% business class and offer service better than first class on most US airlines.

Also, the US economy is picking up and the Japanese economy is not as bad as it was a few years ago. We'll probably never return to the 80's and 90's when the Japanese were literally buying up large swaths of New York City, but I could easily see the decline in travel reversing just due to an increase in business from improving economies.

But again, that's talking mostly about ANA and JAL's market... it's actually really hard to measure the long-term Japanese population in New York, or the number of potential young visitors who might come if only the fares were low enough. I've seen counts of the Japanese population here that range anywhere from the official count of around 60,000, up to an unofficial count I read in the New York Times a few years ago of more than 500,000. Many of those are students or visitors who have let their visas lapse because they want to stay, and typically the USCIS doesn't go after Japanese who do that the way they do for those from some other countries. I personally have known quite a few Japanese who have let their visas lapse, so no doubt the real Japanese population here is higher than the official count. Those people can't easily fly back and forth but they have friends and family who can, and it adds up. And of course, those who *are* here legally could fly back and forth more often on an LCC.

Whenever I fly economy on ANA or JAL, it's pretty much 100% full at any time of year and always has been. The problem is those airlines only even really have those cabins on the JFK-NRT route for tour groups and code shares - if not for that, they'd probably love to get rid of them completely. They could easily fill more economy seats, but they've chosen to focus on the business market that they think is more lucrative. Skymark obviously sees an opportunity to cater to the market they see ANA and JAL as ignoring, and there really could be a large untapped market there.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 54, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 12777 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 53):

Many airlines have gone BK with 90% + load factors. Skymark can easily fill up every seat but to do so profitably is going to be very challenging.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4226 posts, RR: 1
Reply 55, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 11675 times:

Quoting travelin man (Reply 11):
As LAXIntl said, if Skymark is going for the mass market budget traveler, they're going to have to configure the plane with way more than 400 seats. If AF can fit 516 seats on their A380, I would think Skymark would be able to put at least 550 if not 600+...

NYC-Tokyo seems like a tough market to break into for an airline that has little to no brand awareness in the US, and several entrenched competitors already serving it.

They so far seem to know what they are doing domestically and they will tap into their customer base for the flights to the US. Introducing that kind of service though seems a little risky but they probably know what they are doing.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 13):
Call them Tokyo Tower Air.

Thank you and good night.


Tower Air may be but I believe that they will have a better fate.

Quoting bthebest (Reply 43):

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
Their original suggested configuration was 114 Business Class and 280 Economy.

If they did something like 94 Business (top deck, a la KE) and 427 (main deck, a la EK) I think they could make it work. Splitting the decks completely you could have a really good Business product whilst keeping the costs a little lower than competitors. With no competition from other Japanese airlines for the A380 specifically, they just need to undercut SQ to get a decent market share.

I don't see the comparison with KE or SQ. Skymark seems to do well on their own by creating their own market. The question will be whether they can compete with the established airlines in Japan for the routes they choose to compete on, not with other foreign carriers.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3629 posts, RR: 12
Reply 56, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 11447 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 54):
Many airlines have gone BK with 90% + load factors. Skymark can easily fill up every seat but to do so profitably is going to be very challenging.

Well, that's true - I guess I've been more focused on whether there's a market, not whether it can be profitable. I guess there's probably a market for anything at the right price.

I have a feeling, though, that if the US airlines can make a profit on this route with what's already practically an LCC level of service (at least compared to ANA and JAL), then I could see a true LCC doing it with even fewer amenities at a lower price by flying airplanes with a lower CASM.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8374 posts, RR: 7
Reply 57, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10890 times:
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Is this really going to work ? Japan is the only country in Asia with airports at capacity. But it also has the most Pacific competition. IF an A380 is a "good idea" wouldn't ANA do it ?

User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8368 posts, RR: 10
Reply 58, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10203 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 54):
Many airlines have gone BK with 90% + load factors. Skymark can easily fill up every seat but to do so profitably is going to be very challenging.

Many such airlines were not established LCC's. The long haul LCC segment is very new. Skyark is doing something that no one has even attempted to do. That is certainly no guarantee of success but it also has no correlation with the past since in this case, the past doesn't exist.


User currently offlineBluewave 707 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3152 posts, RR: 6
Reply 59, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10159 times:

I could see Skymark entering the HNL market with either with an A330 or A380.

Being that SKY is partly owned by HIS Tours, and based at HND, they could fill an A380 for HNL during peak seasons.



"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 60, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10082 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 58):

Sorry but you are not correct with that statement. Air Asia is an LCC and their long haul was a disaster from a profit point of view. Likewise Air Berlin. The past has not been friendly for long haul LCCs.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 61, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9939 times:

Quoting travelin man (Reply 11):
NYC-Tokyo seems like a tough market to break into for an airline that has little to no brand awareness in the US, and several entrenched competitors already serving it.

Skymark may be a no name in international airline industry and for a.net which is mainly focussing around the US micro cosmos, but behind Skymarks is the Japanese travel industry that knows exactly what Japanese travelers want - and the legacies of the industry do not offer. To fill a daily A380 NYC-Tokyo for them is as complex as to fill a daily A321 from DUS to PMI for Air Berlin.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11670 posts, RR: 33
Reply 62, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9673 times:

I think we are underestimating Skymark Airlines.

Skymark is not just a shitty airline or whatever but is partly owned by HIS, a big tour organiser that knows exactly what Japanese travelers want. With JAL (still?) downsizing and ANA not picking up their market share that leaves a lot of capacity for Skymark. JAL and ANA are also not jumping on the big planes, they are even ditching the 747s.

I was a little bit surprised with the low-density seating configuration (only 394 seats) but it looks like they want to go after JAL and ANA's premium passengers. For example, Skymark could afford to give premium economy seats at economy ticket prices with the A380.

Anyway, Skymark is really serious on the A380 and I'm sure they will accept the delivery for the first planes. They also said to take 9 more if the concept is a success:
http://www.ftd.de/unternehmen/handel...ecken-nach-europa-an/60015019.html (German only).

[Edited 2013-01-03 13:45:49]


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3629 posts, RR: 12
Reply 63, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9337 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 62):
For example, Skymark could afford to give premium economy seats at economy ticket prices with the A380.

I doubt that. They could maybe give Economy Plus seats at economy prices. There's no way they could equal JAL's PE offering and sell them for economy prices; the A380's CASM is 15% less than the 777, not 50%. And that's assuming you *can* fill it - presumably if JAL was filling flights with premium pax on this route, they wouldn't have cut back the number of flights per day on this route by 2/3. I could easily be convinced the LCC market is there for an A380; I'm a lot more skeptical about there being an A380-full of premium passengers per day looking to save a little money.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 62):
With JAL (still?) downsizing and ANA not picking up their market share that leaves a lot of capacity for Skymark.

JAL is downsizing because they're losing money with their strategy. If Skymark comes in with that same strategy and more capacity than JAL even downsized, then they're doomed.

The only way this works is if Skymark tries to tap a different market that ANA and JAL don't serve. JAL and ANA focus on premium passengers and what economy they do offer, they don't even compete on price with other airlines. They are always more expensive.

This has to be a real LCC service and fare structure or I agree with those that say it's DOA. Trying to make a living by stealing ANA and JAL's passengers on this route is suicide. Domestic flying is one thing; international to NYC is another.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 64, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9304 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 63):
I doubt that. They could maybe give Economy Plus seats at economy prices. There's no way they could equal JAL's PE offering and sell them for economy prices; t
Quoting spacecadet (Reply 63):
JAL is downsizing because they're losing money with their strategy. If Skymark comes in with that same strategy and more capacity than JAL even downsized, then they're doomed.

   Hold on a second there, with both points:

E+ and P.E. are no different when classified in Japan. It's just wordplay. JL and BC are going to offer practically the same thing when it comes to the seating arrangement.

JL is downsizing because they have struggled with so many legacy costs which they probably also inherited with JD, along with the fact that JL is a very large company that was spun off from governmental control. They have all of these background costs to deal with on top of fuel costs, and pension costs.

BC is a relatively new airline, with a very efficient mode of operation. They have strong investor support and have consistently placed top with customer service reviews (with the exception of one lapse earlier in 2012, which was corrected by the p/r team.)
Their goal is to hopefully break the duopoly of JL and NH by offering a nice ride across the ponds at a competitive rate.
They know what they're doing. It's Japan. Japan never does anything without researching into it extensively.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinetravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3503 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9302 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 62):
I was a little bit surprised with the low-density seating configuration (only 394 seats) but it looks like they want to go after JAL and ANA's premium passengers. For example, Skymark could afford to give premium economy seats at economy ticket prices with the A380.

OK, maybe I'm missing something here, but how does Cheap Prices + Low Density + Expensive new (BIG) airplane = financial success?


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8152 posts, RR: 26
Reply 66, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9265 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 53):
overdramatized

Not really, I mean basically this is how things are on the ground. And if anything Keidanren has been conservative in their statements on the direction of things over the last 5 years.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 53):
daily life for most in Japan is the same or better than it was 20 years ago

For people living in certain areas, yes, but this is by no means the case in many parts of this country. Well-paid blue collar labor is shrinking rapidly and in rural areas the hollowing out of various industries began more than a decade ago. This has increased competition for jobs in cities and in places like Osaka where some major employers are laying off 15-20% of their workforces this year, that competition will only intensify. At large employers who are still in trouble, the onus will continue to be on hiring cheap university graduates and encouraging those up the ladder to retire early.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25369 posts, RR: 49
Reply 67, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9266 times:

For fun here are the largest Japan-US markets in annual pure O&D. I excluded transfer traffic as Skymark does not have much a network at NRT.

Might give us clues as to where Skymark plans to utilize its fleet of on order A330 and A380s.

TYO - HNL - 1,443,187
TYO - GUM - 1,040,180
TYO - LAX - 596,096
TYO - NYC - 446,866
OSA - HNL - 434,631
TYO - SFO - 344,291
OSA - GUM - 336,107
TYO - SPN - 286,374
NGO - HNL - 265,004
TYO - OGG - 230,500
TYO - CHI - 211,731
TYO - KOA - 160,732
TYO - SEA - 108,244
TYO - DC - 88,859
TYO - LAS - 79,632
OSA - SFO - 67,586
OSA - LAX - 64,805



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineUA787DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9253 times:

This is addressing only the thread starting post, not even debating whether they should have ordered the A380, or discussing the configuration:

Well duh. For US cities that could support them running a 380, where else? I'm not saying it will make money, but it seems to be the best American option. With 6 380s and 6 330s on order, I think that JFK makes sense as a long haul destination. The other cities that will probably recieve the 380 are Other Asian cities and maybe Europe, possibly running some down to Australia. LAX and SFO have way too much capacity on the route to gracefully enter with a 380. They might operate some to close Asian markets too, maybe ICN-HND-PEK, or connecting onwards such as ICN-NRT-LON.

The main Skymark hub is HND. Is HND A380 certified?

Now to address recent talks:

And I agree we might be underestimating Skymark. AFAIK, no LCC has gone from 737 short haul domestic straight to A380 orders before. Granted, they have some 330s on order too, but it is a big switch to say the least. Hopefully they know what they are doing. I agree that the HIS stake in the company should help. I think that JAPAN-HNL might have too much capacity and competition to warrant a 380, even with HIS. But a 330 could work nicely.

Skymark could certainly die soon. We will see what prices and service are like on long haul. But with a quite JAL like strategy that didn't work for JAL, they need to either offer something unique or serve routes JA/ANA don't. The problem is, pretty much all routes that could support a 330/380 from NRT are served by one if not both main Japan carriers, and often multiple others too.

Skymark is a late entrant. JAL and ANA already have the codeshare, alliance, and business pax base. SkyTeam might be interested in a Japanese partner, but Skymark needs to prove they have a working business model.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 69, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 9197 times:

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 68):
The main Skymark hub is HND. Is HND A380 certified?

Not that I heard of last time. It's really cramped there.

NRT is putting the finishing touches on a LCC Concourse, and when this is all finished, BC is going to probably expand ops at NRT, especially with connections from DL.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8152 posts, RR: 26
Reply 70, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8969 times:

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 68):
The problem is, pretty much all routes that could support a 330/380 from NRT are served by one if not both main Japan carriers, and often multiple others too.

And that's not all - both NH and JL also have existing tour package consolidation agreements with H.I.S. That's another question mark in all of this.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8368 posts, RR: 10
Reply 71, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8619 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 60):
Sorry but you are not correct with that statement. Air Asia is an LCC and their long haul was a disaster from a profit point of view. Likewise Air Berlin. The past has not been friendly for long haul LCCs.

First off, I'm not sure when I said otherwise. All I said was that the long haul LCC model was "very new", which it is. There haven't been many long haul LCC at all. Yes, there was Laker Airways and People Express in the 70's, but in more recent years I can't remember only 3 other: Oasis Hong Kong, Air Asia, and more recently Scoot. Air Berlin is not a LCC.
My point is, it's a business model that hasn't been tried very much and there's certainly room for improvement and someone will eventually find the right way to do it.


User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5663 posts, RR: 6
Reply 72, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8271 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 71):
but in more recent years I can't remember only 3 other: Oasis Hong Kong, Air Asia, and more recently Scoot.

Jetstar? Unless you think SYD/CNS-NRT/HNL is not long haul. They seem to have been fairly successful at LH LCC.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineBluewave 707 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3152 posts, RR: 6
Reply 73, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7808 times:

If HIS does not renew (or just cancel) their contracts with JAL and ANA, and divert them all to SKY ... then SKY might have a better shot with competing against the two senior carriers.


"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
User currently onlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 710 posts, RR: 1
Reply 74, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7646 times:

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 73):

If HIS does not renew (or just cancel) their contracts with JAL and ANA, and divert them all to SKY ... then SKY might have a better shot with competing against the two senior carriers.

I suspect large tour operators have enough customers that they'll need all the airlines serving them. And certainly enough destinations.

But of course they can prioritize their own vehicle for destinations that it flies to. If they have a large US tour business, I see no problem in filling the planes. At least with typical prices for such tours. (Don't know about Japan, but in other places it would be rock bottom tourist class prices. So that's the odd thing, maybe Japan is different or maybe Skymark should configure their 380s with 2x more seats...)


User currently offlineflyglobal From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 582 posts, RR: 3
Reply 75, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7504 times:

Wow, some here do hard to come out of their branded brain box.

Skymark may just offer what many tourists want: a vacation from the beginning with the starting flight comfortably and not being cramped in a 31 inch seat pitch in economy.

If they offer as they mentioned and as it was mentioned by some earlier here: 'we will offer Premium economy seat comfort for economy prices.

So if they offer their 38-40 inch seat pitched seats comparable to JL and NH economy seat price, who stupid would I be as a tourist not to strongly consider this?

I asked my Japanese wife - we just returned from Japan with LH NGO-FRA in 31 pitch economy.
She said, of course I would prefer going Skymark and I give a shit on the 50% Miles and More miles on Lufthansa Frequent flyer program if I can have 38 inch pitch instead. So do all their friends. I also would prefer this service over LH, ANA, JAL when I go leisure anyhow and do not need a *A network around.

I heard that Skymark is even considering a honeymoon suite in their A380s. To late for myself, but if you know how much Japanese spend for their marriage and Honeymoon trips anyhow, I believe this will be a runner on routes such as NY.
They may need only one or 2 of their 6 planes for that and probably only one weekly or be-weekly service to selective places.

Anyhow, I am a candidate for Skymarks low cost travel offer, not LCC in the traditional way, cheapest price -cramped,-low service, -add on fee driven, but value for a good price. I believe that Skymark found a concept to make Long haul 'value' service work. So lets change the name: Not LCC = Low Cost carrier, but VCC = Valued Cost Carrier.

Regards

Flyglobal
who loves this idea

[Edited 2013-01-06 03:06:59]

User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4429 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7379 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 38):

The H.I.S. website is currently quoting prices in the 75,000 yen range for a weekday roundtrip to NYC from the Tokyo area in a quiet travel period in March - and that's the cheapest for DL/UA. Considering 30,000 yen of that goes to agent fees, taxes, and the fuel surcharge, that leaves a base fare of around 45,000 yen - or around $550. If Skymark undercuts by 10-15% it's going to be tough to get the numbers to work pretty quick.

They don't need to undercut DL/UA. If they use Skymark instead of DL/UA they get a bigger piece of the pie (the profit DL/UA would made)

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 53):
Skymark is not going for that market... or at least I assume they aren't, as an LCC, and they'd be stupid to try because ANA and JAL have that market locked up with their planes that are about 70% business class and offer service better than first class on most US airlines.

They intend (or intended) to go after the business pax which are working for or owned by small / medium size enterprises . According to Skymark, these passengers are price sensitive if given a good option (other than what's currently offered).


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11670 posts, RR: 33
Reply 77, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6863 times:

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 75):
Wow, some here do hard to come out of their branded brain box.

Skymark may just offer what many tourists want: a vacation from the beginning with the starting flight comfortably and not being cramped in a 31 inch seat pitch in economy.

...

Regards

Flyglobal
who loves this idea

   Amen to that. Exactly what I have in mind.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11670 posts, RR: 33
Reply 78, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6859 times:

Quoting travelin man (Reply 65):
OK, maybe I'm missing something here, but how does Cheap Prices + Low Density + Expensive new (BIG) airplane = financial success?

It was just some quick thinking on my side. Take the JAL 77W for example: it has 272 seats and the A380 has, let's say, a 30% higher operating cost over the 77W. Skymark should equip their A380 with at least 272 * 1.3 = 354 seats to match the JAL product. But they will have 394 seats, they could afford to give better prices over the JAL tickets.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1737 posts, RR: 1
Reply 79, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6648 times:

Airlines don't make a decision to by such big (an expensive) aircraft lightly and there will be a comprehensive business plan in place. Of course this offers no guarantees but to all you critics here, remember that VS started off with a 747 and are still around today. Quite a big plane to enter the market with right? At least Skymark is already an established brand in Japan so that already gives them a customer base. Also, I am sure there are plenty of frequent fliers who are itching for them to start international flights.


Next Flights: LHR-OSL (319-BA), OSL-LHR (319-BA), LHR-CPH (320-BA), VXO-BMA (S20-TF), ARN-CPH (738-SK), CPH-LHR (320-BA)
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8152 posts, RR: 26
Reply 80, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6507 times:

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 79):
Of course this offers no guarantees but to all you critics here, remember that VS started off with a 747 and are still around today.

Yes, the only real difference being they started in a market where travel was growing rather than contracting. This is not the heyday of the 1980s in Japan anymore. Recently Japanese media has been talking often about the fact that newly-married couples in their 30s have as much as 50% less disposable income than their parents did at the same age.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 79):
Also, I am sure there are plenty of frequent fliers who are itching for them to start international flights.

Japanese consumers heavily use credit cards tied to mileage points programs. As I stated previously in the thread, so far none of the major Japanese card issuers are linked to Skymark, just ANA Mileage Club and JAL Mileage Bank. Some of the major issuers like SMBC, AEON, etc have long-term exclusive contracts with JL and NH. Changes come at a glacial pace in the Japanese consumer finance industry - debit cards are only now entering limited use nearly 15 years after they appeared in Western Europe and North America.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4226 posts, RR: 1
Reply 81, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6331 times:

Quoting travelin man (Reply 65):
OK, maybe I'm missing something here, but how does Cheap Prices + Low Density + Expensive new (BIG) airplane = financial success?

No you have not missed anything. I don't think they are going to concentrate on markets where there is saturation like on the TYO-LAX route. They may look to going to Europe with their A380. I am surprised that they are not leasing their aircraft or did I miss that bit of information, in that if they are not going to make any money or may be hard pressed they could structure their lease payments in a way that they have an out. If they purchase the A380 would there be a market for the A380 out there considering the soft market there is now for the VLA.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
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