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When Does DL Start Flying The 717's?  
User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5893 posts, RR: 6
Posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 17480 times:
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I know that WN sold or transferred leases of all of their 717-200's from FL to DL. When is DL slated to start putting those 717's into service?

66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 17483 times:

Second quarter IIRC.

Nothing too constructive in this link though. http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1624



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineLO231 From Belgium, joined Sep 2004, 2392 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 17427 times:

Why should they? Just for my knowledge


Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10387 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 17311 times:

Quoting LO231 (Reply 2):
Why should they? Just for my knowledge

Why should they (DL?/WN?) what?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2348 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 17253 times:

September, 2013 at earliest; November, 2013 at latest.


There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4194 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 17233 times:

Rumors recently of it possibly moving up from Sept delivery and Oct EIS. We'll see!


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5767 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 16761 times:

There was some sort of service letter or AD that Delta was making WN/FL take care of before they'd accept the aircraft; I think that pushed the timeline back a bit.

User currently offlinesurfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2862 posts, RR: 30
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16670 times:

Just flew the FL 717 over the holidays, those birds certainly have seen better days. Given that they probably have a long future ahead of them with DL, I should imagine a thorough refurbishment is a must.


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3433 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16337 times:

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 7):
Just flew the FL 717 over the holidays, those birds certainly have seen better days. Given that they probably have a long future ahead of them with DL, I should imagine a thorough refurbishment is a must.

I also flew them over the holidays and got the opposite impression.

My buddy works at LGA for WN and I told him straight out after I landed, "Southwest will regret the day they sent these to Delta."

Nice product for thinner routes...especially high frequency business routes.


User currently offlineMd88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 15916 times:

They start to arrive in September and fly the schedule in October. 3 birds a month.

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7555 posts, RR: 28
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 15860 times:

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 7):
Just flew the FL 717 over the holidays, those birds certainly have seen better days. Given that they probably have a long future ahead of them with DL, I should imagine a thorough refurbishment is a must.

As a part of the deal, WN is paying the $100M to refurbish the 88 717s to convert them into the DL fleet. This at the price of over $1 M per aircraft.

This includes:
- All new interiors (seats, carpet, lavs, bins) to match the rest of the DL fleet
- Paint in the DL livery
- Installation of Gogo wifi
- Compliance and completion on all ADs


User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17063 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 15790 times:

Quoting Md88Captain (Reply 9):
They start to arrive in September and fly the schedule in October. 3 birds a month.

When will they start to show up on the schedule?

Anyone know which routes they will be deployed on?



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineTan Flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1906 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 15745 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 8):
"Southwest will regret the day they sent these to Delta."

I wonder if AA has thought the same in recent years..Boeing(or whomever had the TWA leases) probably wishes they had made a deal with AA back in 2001 or so...hindsight is 20/20 vision tho. But seems to me that WN is making the same error.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7555 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 15664 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 11):
When will they start to show up on the schedule?

Anyone know which routes they will be deployed on?

Not likely to know much until about July, based on a start date of October. Even at this point, the start date is somewhat fluid and could move +/- a month based on a variety of factors.

The first routes will be out of ATL. ATL routes that are or have recently seen DC-9-50 service are the most probable initial routes.


User currently offlineLO231 From Belgium, joined Sep 2004, 2392 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 15647 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 3):

I said for my knowledge. Not everybody on this site is familiar with US market. Sorry



Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10387 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 15630 times:

Quoting LO231 (Reply 14):
I said for my knowledge. Not everybody on this site is familiar with US market. Sorry

Maybe I'm the one that should say I was sorry. I just wasn't clear on exactly what you wanted an explanation for.




BTW, this all seems to have come full circle. I remember people saying what a mistake it was when some of DL's DC-9-32s were sold to Valujet.....that it would come back to bite them. Well, we've gone to Valujet, AirTran & Southwest and now we're receiving a/c from them. Perhaps this deal will come back to bite WN. Who knows?

[Edited 2013-01-03 08:17:21]


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineLO231 From Belgium, joined Sep 2004, 2392 posts, RR: 23
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 15576 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 15):

No offence taken. Just curious  



Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3068 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 15517 times:

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 12):
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 8):
"Southwest will regret the day they sent these to Delta."

I wonder if AA has thought the same in recent years..Boeing(or whomever had the TWA leases) probably wishes they had made a deal with AA back in 2001 or so...hindsight is 20/20 vision tho. But seems to me that WN is making the same error.

I'm not so sure. While I don't doubt that the 717s offer a great flying experience, they don't seem to be a great fit for WN because they're a completely different type that still requires the same number of F/As as 737s and carry roughly the same number of pax as WN's existing-soon-to-be-outgoing 735s, so from WN's perspective they're not different enough to justify the expense of adding and maintaining a second major type of aircraft to their fleet.

Had FL been operating a fleet of 88 E-190s at the time of the merger, which could have been efficiently configured at just under 100 pax thereby requiring only two F/As per flight, WN might have been more willing to take on a second major aircraft type.

[Edited 2013-01-03 08:22:24]


Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4313 posts, RR: 36
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 15482 times:

Quoting LO231 (Reply 2):
Why should they? Just for my knowledge

Southwest seems to want to keep things simple and holds on to a single fleet type so they can easily swap crews. It was already a headache for them how to organize and dispatch 4 F/A's on their 738s while putting 3 F/A's on the rest of the fleet.
Delta however wanted a 110-seater to fill the gap between the ERJs and CRJ900s and the A-319s after the last DC-9-50s are gone and to replace some MD-80s on routes for which they are a bit too big. Apparently Delta has more routes needing a 110 seater (in contrast to the MD-80s/90s/737s having 130-170 seats) while Southwest don't after they cherry pick AirTran's route network and only continue the routes they like. Delta also flies all other Douglas twinjets already so adding some 717s isn't too much of a hassle for them.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7555 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 15342 times:

DL has a much better ability to use the 717s and get a revenue premium versus what WN could do with then under their operating model. DL can use them to offer a 2-class product, maintain capacitty constraints, and use them to feed more lucrative connecting international, BE,

Wheras WN/FL might use a 717 in place line FNT-ATL for the purpose of connecting low-yield and price sensitive traffic to Florida, DL may use them on a route like BHM-ATL for the purpose of feeding their global hub and say connecting people in the J cabin to places like LHR, NRT, GRU, etc.


User currently offlineLO231 From Belgium, joined Sep 2004, 2392 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 15088 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 18):

Can somebody explain it to me? Isn't it the rule to have one FA by 50 pax?



Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
User currently offlinegoomba From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 309 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 14720 times:

The 717's are all new (in respective terms) and have a long prosperous life in front of them with DL. I think this is a brilliant move for both carriers (DL and WN). WN likes one aircraft type for crew swapping, plane swapping, maintenance costs, etc., and DL certainly has a need for a short to mid range jet to help with phasing out the old DC-9, MD-80, A320 aircraft that need to be phased out. This is a very cost effective move for DL. As we've all seen, DL is doing quite well with buying/leasing used aircraft and incorporating them into their fleet vs. buying new. Buying new is expensive. This is why you see 8 different 757 configurations in DL's fleet. Plus the 717's don't have far to travel to get to DL...cross both 8/26 runways taxiway Dixie and they are at their new home.  

User currently offlineHoMsaR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 14409 times:

When DL takes delivery of the 717s, will they have the title of having flown the most different Douglas jet types/subtypes?

For that matter, they were just the 707 away from flying the entire Boeing and MD lineup (excluding the 787, which will show up...someday).



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3068 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 14408 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 18):
Southwest seems to want to keep things simple and holds on to a single fleet type so they can easily swap crews. It was already a headache for them how to organize and dispatch 4 F/A's on their 738s while putting 3 F/A's on the rest of the fleet.
Quoting LO231 (Reply 20):
Can somebody explain it to me? Isn't it the rule to have one FA by 50 pax?

WN's 737s seat 137 pax (soon to be more but still less than 150 overall) while their 738s seat more than 150 pax (I forget how many exactly- I'm sure someone will post the official number), thus requiring a fourth F/A per flight.



Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
User currently offlineB727FA From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 756 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 13982 times:

I per 50 SEATS (with a small exception for under 19 seats; save for yet another exception based on weight of a/c).

Not to put too fine a point on it, but staffing can also be affected by previous staffing of an a/c--ie, if a 757 were 210 seats it would require 5 FA's. But then, say, 11 seats were removed (to 199) but no new mini-evac were performed, then the FAA would still require 5...ask Pace crews about this little problem they had with that rule.



My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
User currently offlinecloud4000 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 641 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 14333 times:

Is DL going to hire FL flight crews to fly them or they going to use their own pilots?


Boston, USA
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 928 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 14401 times:

Quoting cloud4000 (Reply 25):

I don't think so unless they apply. Less then two weeks ago DL had 400 openings for flight attendants. Most of these new hires would be for the 717, at least that is my guess



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10387 posts, RR: 14
Reply 27, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 14061 times:

Quoting cloud4000 (Reply 25):
Is DL going to hire FL flight crews to fly them or they going to use their own pilots?

Why would they need to do that? They've already got flight crews on DC9-50s and MD-88s and MD-90s that would just have to take training to familiarize themselves with the new a/c.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinesuperjeff From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13275 times:
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Quoting TSS (Reply 23):


WN's 737s seat 137 pax (soon to be more but still less than 150 overall) while their 738s seat more than 150 pax (I forget how many exactly- I'm sure someone will post the official number), thus requiring a fourth F/A per flight.

175 seats on their 738's.


User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 29, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13312 times:

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 12):
I wonder if AA has thought the same in recent years..Boeing(or whomever had the TWA leases) probably wishes they had made a deal with AA back in 2001 or so...hindsight is 20/20 vision tho. But seems to me that WN is making the same error.

Had Boeing Capital been willing to rework the TWA 717 lease terms, Boeing would have more than likely seen at least 300+ 717s delivered, as FL's order was originally for 50 a/c plus 50 options as was TWA's. FL ended up converting some of their options for the TWA a/c. I'm sure AA would have ordered additional 717s and perhaps another major airline would have ordered it as well. The 717 pretty much saved AirTran, as without it, they may have likely gone under after 9/11.

Quoting mayor (Reply 15):
BTW, this all seems to have come full circle. I remember people saying what a mistake it was when some of DL's DC-9-32s were sold to Valujet.....that it would come back to bite them. Well, we've gone to Valujet, AirTran & Southwest and now we're receiving a/c from them. Perhaps this deal will come back to bite WN. Who knows?

When you consider WN is a part of this deal, it really can't be fully compared to the deal in which DL sold their DC-9-30 fleet back to MDD for resale. Delta didn't have a say in regards to what airlines MDD could sell those DC-9-30s to. The reason why Valujet got the DC-9 was because they were not able to get their original a/c of choice the 737 because a number of start-ups had grabbed pretty much all of the 732s and 733s out there on the market.

I really don't think this will come back to bite WN in the butt, as the 717s are replacing other a/c in the Delta fleet as opposed to being the fleet of a brand new airline like in the case of Valujet. It helps DL retire the remaining DC-9s inherited in the merger as well as cut some regional jet flying (which the mainline pilots are probably more than happy to regain).


User currently offlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5152 posts, RR: 22
Reply 30, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13000 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 10):
- Installation of Gogo wifi

Um...don't they already have GoGo?

Maybe there's some kind of GoGo upgrade (like to CDMA Rev. Whatever) they're doing?


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5393 posts, RR: 4
Reply 31, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13115 times:

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 7):
Just flew the FL 717 over the holidays, those birds certainly have seen better days.
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 8):
I also flew them over the holidays and got the opposite impression.

My last few FL 717 flights suggest the refurbishment is about due. FL hasn't abused the birds, but it has used them hard, and saved costs where safely possible on interior maintenance. They will look much nicer after the DL refurb-o-matic goes through them.

[Edited 2013-01-03 12:23:38]

User currently offlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5152 posts, RR: 22
Reply 32, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13044 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 29):
Had Boeing Capital been willing to rework the TWA 717 lease terms, Boeing would have more than likely seen at least 300+ 717s delivered,

I love flying the 717, as did the TWA crews. There were a couple of advantages to AA of sticking with the F100s, though, so it wasn't just the TWA lease terms that were the issue:

(1) AA had the F100s and what AA does is always right. No need to question this premise.

(2) More practically, the F100 was a total orphan that would have been a challenge to dispose of, even if the 717 was a superior aircraft, which at least some at AA did indeed understand.

(3) Kill the 717, and you screw any TWA pilots who had been fenced on it. Screwing the TWA pilots seemed to be Implicit Job 1 after the acquisition.

Think about it...between the AA pilot's union and AA management, they managed to unload much of the TWA metal and most of the employees (if unload includes furlough) pretty darn quickly, confirming my suspicion that the deal was primarily driven by a desire to take out a low-cost competitor. How long before the idea of a "third transcontinental AA hub" turned out not to be viable?


User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 33, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 12941 times:

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 30):
Maybe there's some kind of GoGo upgrade (like to CDMA Rev. Whatever) they're doing?

DL is one of the launch customers for Gogo's next generation tech, ATG-4 (along with Virgin America and US Airways).

Gogo to Expand Gogo Vision on Delta's Entire Two-class and Delta Connection Fleet of Gogo Equipped Aircraft

Gogo Launches Next Generation In-Air Connectivity Technology - ATG-4

According to Gogo, the process to upgrade the technology on a/c with Gogo currently installed isn't that difficult or time consuming:

Quote:
Gogo expects to roll out ATG-4 at a rapid pace, with hundreds of aircraft installations planned before the end of 2013. Aircraft installations of the new technology will typically take place overnight and will require the installation of two antennas, one on each side of the aircraft, installation of a second modem and a software upgrade. Gogo's more than 150 land based cellular towers have already been modified for the new technology.

AirTran was able to get their entire fleet outfitted with it in about two months, and even Delta rolled it out fairly quickly considering they had to test it on so many different a/c types as the result of the merger.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7517 posts, RR: 23
Reply 34, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 12391 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 29):
Had Boeing Capital been willing to rework the TWA 717 lease terms, Boeing would have more than likely seen at least 300+ 717s delivered

Had that happened, 717 production would still be taking place at Long Beach as I write this.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 29):
Delta didn't have a say in regards to what airlines MDD could sell those DC-9-30s to.

   And rightly so. Given the limited number of mainline aircraft manufacturers (even before the Boeing-MDD merger), such a deal would've been a detriment & a Pandora's box to the manufacturers (other arilines could impose similar restrictions) and legally questionable.

If memory serves, AA threw Boeing such a deal for one-for-one TWA 717 swap for their F100s provided that the F100s would not be sold to a competitor. Boeing said "No." likely due to AA's terms of conditions, and AA cancelled TW's remaining 717 order and turned in their existing inherited 717s.

In the short term, such a move backfired to an extent since most of the former-TW 717s wound up w/FL; which competed w/AA on some routes. Additionally, many LFCs (B6, F9 & NK come to mind) were no longer interested in purchasing 2nd-hand aricraft... especially a long-since orphaned model like the F100. But in the end, AA's cancellation of TW's 717 order, sadly, sealed the fate of 717 production.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4447 posts, RR: 6
Reply 35, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 11950 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 11):
Anyone know which routes they will be deployed on?

I could see them doing most of the EWR-ATL flying.


User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 36, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 11704 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 34):
If memory serves, AA threw Boeing such a deal for one-for-one TWA 717 swap for their F100s provided that the F100s would not be sold to a competitor. Boeing said "No." likely due to AA's terms of conditions, and AA cancelled TW's remaining 717 order and turned in their existing inherited 717s.

I never heard it that way, nor do I recall any threads about it it going down that way. What I had heard was that AA really liked the 717s and wanted to rework the lease rates on the 717s as TWA was paying some fairly high lease rates on them (mainly because they were the airline equivalent of someone with bad credit) and Boeing Capital refused to budge on the lease rates. Word is that they could operate the F100s cheaper than they could the 717s under the terms of the TWA lease with Boeing Capital.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7517 posts, RR: 23
Reply 37, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 11082 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 36):

The fore-mentioned one-for-one deal I'm referring to was a last-ditch effort Boeing offered to AA w/out TW's high lease rates. IIRC, I heard about this through one of the older threads (circa 2004-2005, it was part of an overall thread and not the main topic) as well as one magazine article. In that thread in question, a poster cited AA's reasoning for their "No selling their F100s to a competitor." clause was indeed an attempt to avoid a repeat of DL's old DC-9s going to J7.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6422 posts, RR: 17
Reply 38, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 10709 times:

Slightly off topic-----when do 739ER get here???


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 39, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 10762 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 29):
Had Boeing Capital been willing to rework the TWA 717 lease terms, Boeing would have more than likely seen at least 300+ 717s delivered, as FL's order was originally for 50 a/c plus 50 options as was TWA's. FL ended up converting some of their options for the TWA a/c. I'm sure AA would have ordered additional 717s and perhaps another major airline would have ordered it as well. The 717 pretty much saved AirTran, as without it, they may have likely gone under after 9/11.
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 34):
Quoting srbmod (Reply 29):
Had Boeing Capital been willing to rework the TWA 717 lease terms, Boeing would have more than likely seen at least 300+ 717s delivered

Had that happened, 717 production would still be taking place at Long Beach as I write this.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 29):
Delta didn't have a say in regards to what airlines MDD could sell those DC-9-30s to.

And rightly so. Given the limited number of mainline aircraft manufacturers (even before the Boeing-MDD merger), such a deal would've been a detriment & a Pandora's box to the manufacturers (other arilines could impose similar restrictions) and legally questionable.

If memory serves, AA threw Boeing such a deal for one-for-one TWA 717 swap for their F100s provided that the F100s would not be sold to a competitor. Boeing said "No." likely due to AA's terms of conditions, and AA cancelled TW's remaining 717 order and turned in their existing inherited 717s.

In the short term, such a move backfired to an extent since most of the former-TW 717s wound up w/FL; which competed w/AA on some routes. Additionally, many LFCs (B6, F9 & NK come to mind) were no longer interested in purchasing 2nd-hand aricraft... especially a long-since orphaned model like the F100. But in the end, AA's cancellation of TW's 717 order, sadly, sealed the fate of 717 production.
Quoting srbmod (Reply 36):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 34):
If memory serves, AA threw Boeing such a deal for one-for-one TWA 717 swap for their F100s provided that the F100s would not be sold to a competitor. Boeing said "No." likely due to AA's terms of conditions, and AA cancelled TW's remaining 717 order and turned in their existing inherited 717s.

I never heard it that way, nor do I recall any threads about it it going down that way. What I had heard was that AA really liked the 717s and wanted to rework the lease rates on the 717s as TWA was paying some fairly high lease rates on them (mainly because they were the airline equivalent of someone with bad credit) and Boeing Capital refused to budge on the lease rates. Word is that they could operate the F100s cheaper than they could the 717s under the terms of the TWA lease with Boeing Capital.


Actually from what I recall, there was a big airplane swap to happen if UA/US Merged that involved AA. Before that swap was set up AA was going to keep the 717's and trade the F100's to Boeing with the clause that they werent sold to someone in the USA, the lease rates would have gone down to reasonable with AA's credit. Then UA/AA and DC Air (proposed airline set up to settle anti trust issues with the WAS area airports and the US Merger) and AA was suppose to take some of the F100's from US. When AA pushed Boeing to also take those F100's Boeing pulled the offer as it didnt think that they could place that many F100's.

this was about as close as i could come to an article to back it up

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-twa-united,0,4162783.story

about half way down it says "In addition to the joint venture, United has agreed to hand over to American about 90 of US Airways' jets, dozens of gates at airports up and down the East Coast and several dozen landing and takeoff positions at LaGuardia and Reagan National. Those landing and takeoff positions alone are valued in the millions of dollars."

-m

  

[Edited 2013-01-03 15:38:17]

User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 10315 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 27):
Why would they need to do that? They've already got flight crews on DC9-50s and MD-88s and MD-90s that would just have to take training to familiarize themselves with the new a/c.

Youd be surprised when the deal was first announced alot FL pilots were considering jumping ship to DL.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12134 posts, RR: 51
Reply 41, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 10189 times:

Is there any plan for DL to pick up some of the former MexicanaClick B-717s still parked in the deserts?

User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10387 posts, RR: 14
Reply 42, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 10121 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 40):
Quoting mayor (Reply 27):
Why would they need to do that? They've already got flight crews on DC9-50s and MD-88s and MD-90s that would just have to take training to familiarize themselves with the new a/c.

Youd be surprised when the deal was first announced alot FL pilots were considering jumping ship to DL.

But it wouldn't be like the aircrews were part of the deal, along with the a/c. They'd have to hire on and go to the bottom of the list, more than likely. No package deal, here.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 43, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9873 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 41):
Is there any plan for DL to pick up some of the former MexicanaClick B-717s still parked in the deserts?

That's always a possibility. Click was getting some of the 717s that were formerly operated by Midwest (Hawaiian and Spanish airline Volotea have picked up some as well.). I'm surprised that Boeing Capital isn't trying to work out a deal with Delta to get those stored ones into their fleet in advance of the first FL ones being delivered to them. Some of these a/c were among the last 717s delivered back in 2006.


User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 44, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9696 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 43):
I'm surprised that Boeing Capital isn't trying to work out a deal with Delta to get those stored ones into their fleet in advance of the first FL ones being delivered to them. Some of these a/c were among the last 717s delivered back in 2006.

That's because the rest in storage are going to Volotea


User currently offlineDTWPurserBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 1617 posts, RR: 7
Reply 45, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9526 times:

Quoting LO231 (Reply 20):
Can somebody explain it to me? Isn't it the rule to have one FA by 50 pax?Next flights:BRU-WAW-BRU Dreamliner hopefully

No, the rule is one f/a per 50 SEATS, not pax.



Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
User currently offlinee38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9273 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 11), "Anyone know which routes they will be deployed on?"

The initial pilot base will be Atlanta; so obviously, the routes will be short to medium range destinations out of ATL, currently flown by DC-9 and MD-88 aircraft.

Beyond that, "network" will consider basing them out of Detroit, and later, out of New York.

Currently, there is not plan for a 717 pilot base at the western bases--SLC, LAX, SEA.

Also, quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 41), "Is there any plan for DL to pick up some of the former MexicanaClick B-717s still parked in the deserts?"

No, not at this time.

e38


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10387 posts, RR: 14
Reply 47, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9205 times:

Quoting e38 (Reply 46):
Currently, there is not plan for a 717 pilot base at the western bases--SLC, LAX, SEA.

As far as SLC is concerned, I would imagine this might have something to do with the 717's hot and high performance as much as anything else. How IS the 717's performance in this case?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4581 posts, RR: 23
Reply 48, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8788 times:

Quoting TSS (Reply 23):
WN's 737s seat 137 pax (soon to be more but still less than 150 overall) while their 738s seat more than 150 pax (I forget how many exactly- I'm sure someone will post the official number), thus requiring a fourth F/A per flight.

The -700s are getting refit to 143 seats with the "evolve" interior. I want to say about half are already converted.

Quoting cloud4000 (Reply 25):
Is DL going to hire FL flight crews to fly them or they going to use their own pilots?

As pointed out already, no need. The FL 717 crews will just transition to the WN 737s as needed.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 29):
I really don't think this will come back to bite WN in the butt, as the 717s are replacing other a/c in the Delta fleet as opposed to being the fleet of a brand new airline like in the case of Valujet. It helps DL retire the remaining DC-9s inherited in the merger as well as cut some regional jet flying (which the mainline pilots are probably more than happy to regain).

I think you nailed it. WN likely didn't want these things to begin with. They were faced with three options, in my opinion...

1) Try to dump them on the market, but risk a startup or another LCC getting them.

2) Find an existing operator to place them that won't directly boost competition.

3) Find a way to work them into the fleet or park them and just sit on them.

Option 1 and 3 are both going to impact the bottom line, #1 more so, so #2 was really the only option.


User currently offlinee38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8750 times:

Quoting cloud4000 (Reply 25), "Is DL going to hire FL flight crews to fly them or they going to use their own pilots?"

cloud4000, Delta will use their own pilots for the 717. The idea you asked about, "is DL going to hire FL flight crews, . . ." it doesn't work like that at major (legacy) air carriers in the United States.

If a Southwest (former Air Tran) pilot desired to resign and apply for employment at Delta, that pilot would not necessarily be hired--they would compete for employment along with all the other applicants and would not be given preferential consideration because they flew the 717. Furthermore, once hired, they would not necessarily be assigned to fly the 717 either; it would depend completely on what aircraft vacancies and training requirements exist at the time of employment.

e38


User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 50, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6879 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 13):
The first routes will be out of ATL. ATL routes that are or have recently seen DC-9-50 service are the most probable initial routes.

It'll be nice to see a mainline T-tail in BNA does doesn't scream as it taxis in...



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6464 posts, RR: 9
Reply 51, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6598 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 40):
Youd be surprised when the deal was first announced alot FL pilots were considering jumping ship to DL.




Maybe a loyt of FL pilots were consideringdering jumping to DL, but I don't remember DL ever saying they wanted the FL pilots.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7517 posts, RR: 23
Reply 52, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6252 times:

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 39):

   Thank you for adding the piece of missing info. regarding the infamous AA 717/F100 swap that never happened.

Quoting e38 (Reply 49):
If a Southwest (former Air Tran) pilot desired to resign and apply for employment at Delta, that pilot would not necessarily be hired--they would compete for employment along with all the other applicants and would not be given preferential consideration because they flew the 717. Furthermore, once hired, they would not necessarily be assigned to fly the 717 either; it would depend completely on what aircraft vacancies and training requirements exist at the time of employment.

Sidebar question: Given that FL has flown the 73G for many years pre-WN merger and the fact that they still were taking delivery of new 73Gs; how many FL 717 pilots out there are already trained/certified to fly the 73G? Or even the 738 for that matter, because FL's 737 order included an option for 738s... a type that WN now flies.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineB757forever From United States of America, joined May 2010, 400 posts, RR: 3
Reply 53, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5993 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 41):
Is there any plan for DL to pick up some of the former MexicanaClick B-717s still parked in the deserts?

Maybe. At the Senior Leadership Conference last fall, Ed Bastian spoke about the 717 deal and stated there were additional 717 airframes over and above the 88 from FL that DL may be interested in acquiring.


User currently offlineB727FA From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 756 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5841 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 41):

Is there any plan for DL to pick up some of the former MexicanaClick B-717s still parked in the deserts?

As B757 said, "maybe." Never say never on VA avenue! I'd speculate that yes, every available 717 (even a few high powered RC models--ha ha) will find its way to DL.



My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2348 posts, RR: 7
Reply 55, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5822 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 47):
As far as SLC is concerned, I would imagine this might have something to do with the 717's hot and high performance as much as anything else. How IS the 717's performance in this case?

From what I know, the 717 is respectable, as the high bypass BR715's perform better than the JT8D-200 series. The 717 is not as strong as the MD-90, however.

Quoting B757forever (Reply 53):
At the Senior Leadership Conference last fall, Ed Bastian spoke about the 717 deal and stated there were additional 717 airframes over and above the 88 from FL that DL may be interested in acquiring.

It is inevitable... barring an unforeseen/worse case scenario between now and 2015. Like the MD-90, there will be some delay in the procurement process to minimize the acquisition costs.



There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 56, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5741 times:

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 50):
It'll be nice to see a mainline T-tail in BNA does doesn't scream as it taxis in...

Those BR-715s have that distinctive Rolls growl and compared to the JT8Ds used on the DC-9s and MD-80s, it's a quiet plane both inside and out. I was working at FL when the 717s came into the fleet and a few times early on a 717 would pop up at the gate early (or was a gate swap that ops didn't tell our lead about until about the time the plane showed up at the gate) and we'd all not know it was sitting there because the engines were so quiet and were drowned out by the noisy engines and APUs on the DC-9s and 732s.

Even sitting in the back rows of the 717 aren't that bad either. Back in 2004, I was heading back home from LAS and was able to catch an earlier flight home because I got to the airport over 3 hours early because I thought dripping the rental car was going to take as long as it did to get it. The nonstop flights were being operated by Ryan International's A320s and FL was flying the 717s ATL-DFW-LAS-DFW-ATL (A routing that stuck around for a time after the 73Gs were in the fleet and were used on that route.) and I managed to get onto that flight and the only empty seat on both legs was in the last row of the cabin. The noise was not that bad and you could actually have a conversation without yelling.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10387 posts, RR: 14
Reply 57, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5621 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 56):
Those BR-715s have that distinctive Rolls growl

Kinda like a mini-Tristar??



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 58, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5455 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 57):
Kinda like a mini-Tristar??

Not that deep. I remember when I worked for FL and EV and DL operated the L-1011s out of the gates on B that faced C and they'd fire up those RB-211s and that you could feel that growl all the way over on C.


User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 59, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5131 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 56):
Those BR-715s have that distinctive Rolls growl and compared to the JT8Ds used on the DC-9s and MD-80s, it's a quiet plane both inside and out.

Yeah, working the ramp I've learned to tell what kind of plane it is by how the engines sound... the A320s have more of a buzz, the DC-9s and MD-88s Delta brings in shriek their way across the ramp, and the the ERJs I spend all day working on just kind of hum. But we can ALWAYS tell when a Delta DC-9 or MD-88 is Taxiing from anywhere in the airport.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7483 posts, RR: 7
Reply 60, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4881 times:

On a side note,it looks like DL is retiring another -9. ATL-OKC-MZJ . Glad I saw and heard (!) them during thier short,2 week or so appearance in ROC last Summer.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL9931



'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 61, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4717 times:

Quoting United_fan (Reply 60):
On a side note,it looks like DL is retiring another -9. ATL-OKC-MZJ . Glad I saw and heard (!) them during thier short,2 week or so appearance in ROC last Summer.

N401EA



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1526 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4598 times:
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Quoting dtw9 (Reply 44):
That's because the rest in storage are going to Volotea

Source? No such announcement has been made that I know of.


User currently offlineTZTriStar500 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1452 posts, RR: 9
Reply 63, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4552 times:

Quoting n471wn (Reply 62):

Source? No such announcement has been made that I know of.

This has not been made public, but the remaining 11 are allocated for Volotea.

[Edited 2013-01-05 12:20:42]


35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
User currently offlineB757forever From United States of America, joined May 2010, 400 posts, RR: 3
Reply 64, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4348 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 61):
N401EA
I believe this was the only Eastern Airlines DC9-50 that DL was operating. Sad to see it go.  


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 65, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4237 times:

Quoting B757forever (Reply 64):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 61):
N401EA
I believe this was the only Eastern Airlines DC9-50 that DL was operating.

Wow, an era ended yesterday then! I wonder if any other former EA aircraft are still flying? Likely most of the 752 fleet but as early models, they may not last much longer.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4313 posts, RR: 36
Reply 66, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4113 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 65):
I wonder if any other former EA aircraft are still flying?

A handful of ex Eastern 757s are still flying, but as VIP or cargo only.
Ironically more ex Eastern 727s also still survive, also as freighters with Transmile, Federal Express, Kelowna, Cargojet, Kalitta and the IFL Group, Capital recently withdrew theirs. Even two -25Cs with the Congolese Air Force and the FAA.
I didn't check the fates of the A-300 and L-1011 but I don't think many if any of these are still flying.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
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