Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Finnair Spain Routes With Spanish Cabin Crew  
User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 669 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 16 hours ago) and read 8659 times:

Hello all,

Last September Finnair announced plans to reoragnise the crewing of its flights to Spain. Finnair Plans To Out Source Cabin Crew

Finnair has now published, in Finnish only for some reason, a Press Release stating that from February on, Madrid and Barceona flights will be operated by cabin crew based in Spain. A Spanish recruitment agency Atlas Servicios Empresariales has been contracted to supply the cabin crew.

Finnair gives one very clear reason for this, ability to cut costs as Finnish crews are no longer needed to have a lay over in the respective destinations, thus saving money for the company. No further information is being given about the Spanish crew, if they will speak Finnish or not.

I, for one, have very mixed feelings about this. I understand Finnair needs to cut costs, but surely a layover of two crews of usually E-jets cannot be such a big deal? I am also surprised the announcement has gone past quietly, it was reported in the news but no public uproar emerged and I could find no statement from SLSY, the Finnish CA Association.

Unfortunately, I see this as a try out. If this works and no one says a word, will we see this spread to other routes as well, as long as the income level is lower than the one in Finland?

Thoughts, ideas?

okAY

Source: Finnair Press Release

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedowntown273 From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 15 hours ago) and read 8536 times:

Well, as per the as-is scenario, it seems like Finnair waste 1 aircraft just to fly two sectors: Madrid and back.

17:00→20:25 HEL-MAD MTWTFSS Finnair 3183
10:10→15:30 MAD-HEL MTWTFSS Finnair 3184

I guess it's the same crew who operates these two flights; there is a 11h45 minute rest between the two flights.

If the flights are operated by crew based in Spain, they could change the flight times, to something like:

MAD-HEL 07:00 12:20
HEL-MAD 13:00 15:25

Can this be done by the same crew? If so, there you go the saving of overnighting a crew.

Then the aircraft would be available for some other flight after the arrival - maybe domestic? Maybe Canaries and back?


User currently offlinedowntown273 From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 15 hours ago) and read 8516 times:

Same for BCN, the crew overnight for 11h55min - another aircraft doing just 2 European sectors in 24 hours.

17:25→20:20 HEL-BCN MTWTFSS Finnair 3269
10:15→15:10 BCN-HEL MTWTFSS Finnair 3270

Yields must be really good...


User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 669 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 8393 times:

The arrival times to HEL on both routes are scheduled to match the afternoon departure wave of Asian flights. And would not the above suggested schedule force the aircraft to stay a long period in out-station, as well?

How I see it, is that flight deck crew and aircraft rotation will indeed stay the same, the savings are made by having the Spanish cabin crew on board so that only flight deck crew has to be put up in a hotel.

Basically, the Spanish CC will meet the flight deck crew in the morning, fly to HEL, the flight deck crew will change to a fresh one, when again the CC will fly back to Spain.

Or am I missing something?

okAY


User currently offlineHELyes From Finland, joined Oct 2010, 967 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 8378 times:

Quoting okAY (Thread starter):
I understand Finnair needs to cut costs, but surely a layover of two crews of usually E-jets cannot be such a big deal?

They don't use E-jets to MAD/BCN, but A321 typically.

But yes, savings seem to be the name of the game these days...

Quoting downtown273 (Reply 1):
MAD-HEL 07:00 12:20
HEL-MAD 13:00 15:25

Can this be done by the same crew? If so, there you go the saving of overnighting a crew.

Then the aircraft would be available for some other flight after the arrival - maybe domestic? Maybe Canaries and back?

That timetable wouldn't work well feeding the Asia flights, too early departures. Their Asia service has a surprisigly big role here too.

The HEL-Canaries routes are too long for their current NB Airbuses, but the new A321 sharklet version they are receiving this year can do the job, giving more flexibility.


User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1141 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 10 hours ago) and read 7897 times:

Can't a Finnair HEL based crew fly a turn-around to Spain? Are MAD hotels that expensive????

User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 669 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 7801 times:

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 5):

The problem is that in order to get pax from Spain to connect to the Asia flights, they need to leave Spain quite early, way before noon anyway. Now, if the crew was to do a turn-around flight, it would mean a departure from HEL around 3-4am, which would not work, either.

okAY


User currently offlinedebonair From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2445 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7157 times:

Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Thread starter):
Finnair has now published, in Finnish only for some reason, a Press Release stating that from February on, Madrid and Barceona flights will be operated by cabin crew based in Spain.

What will happen next? First AY tried to operate these route with wet-leased smartlynx A320, but this seemed not to be successful enough (cost wise)?!
So the question will be, will AY have in 10 years time still OWN crew or not. The ERJ is already flown by flyBE Nordic...


User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 669 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6873 times:

Quoting debonair (Reply 8):

A brief answer would be, in European operations, no.

Finnair wants to get rid of European flights, one way or the other. But they cannot support the Asia network without the feeder traffic. I think we will see more these kind of "fix it so it doesn't leak" -solutions in the future. Or other option is, AY sells the Euro-ops to someone, for example FlyBe.

Workforce agencies have made it very easy to do this. All an airline needs to do is sign a contract with the agency and the rest is taken care of by them. What is the quality of all this and will it show in passenger satisfaction/dissatisfaction, is to be seen.

In regards to these two specific routes, I think they were chosen because AY wants to keep them, but they were bleeding badly. They offer the perfect test platform to see what happens in such an agreement. If it proves to be success, let's get the party started on other routes as well....?

okAY


User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6630 times:

It's only my opinion but Finnair seem to be getting it all wrong these days.

Firstly with their ghastly livery and now putting Spanish crews on their flights. The Spanish are not known for their great customer service as we all know from flying with Iberia.

Look at the way BA started flag waving for the Olympics being more British to sell itself to the world. Finnair might do well to take the same approach.

I have a bad feeling about all of this. European routes bleeding money, very soon well see them asking for an EU bailout.


User currently offlineHELyes From Finland, joined Oct 2010, 967 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6539 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 10):
I have a bad feeling about all of this. European routes bleeding money, very soon well see them asking for an EU bailout.

Actually their year 2012 looks ok. The third quarter was their best ever and 2012 is expected to show profit.

A large part of their European traffic is handled by FlyBe Nordic already, now also the Embraers (though in AY colors) and it seems to be working. They sink or survive with Asia, if the feeding traffic bleeds they have to fix it.

Not sure what to think of the Spanish crew, but let see how that works in practise. They have had Asian flight attendants from the same company Adecco on their Asian routes for a long time already.


User currently offlineteme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1580 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6183 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I think that they aren't bleeding that much on EU routes. Yeah there are some routes that aren't making profit. The trunk routes like HEL-LHR/CDG/FRA are in my opinion doing ok. Heck AY 831 on 6th of Jan was full! I know since I was on board on the OH-LZD an A321-211. Ok the U20 Canadian Ice Hockey team was on board 


Flying high and low
User currently offlineFlyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 708 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5955 times:

Quoting teme82 (Reply 11):
Ok the U20 Canadian Ice Hockey team was on board

Yeah, noticed the special AY flight from Ufa to Helsinki on Friday night. I can imagine that the Finnish national team was not the only customer on board that flight. Probably they routed some other teams on other AY flights.

Quoting teme82 (Reply 11):
I think that they aren't bleeding that much on EU routes.
Quoting teme82 (Reply 11):
Heck AY 831 on 6th of Jan was full!

However, high utlization rate is not a guarantee of positive yields.


User currently offlinebastew From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 1028 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5945 times:

I would have thought that the very least a passenger could expect of a carrier from a particular country is for the crew of that airline to speak the national language.

Surely at least ONE of the cabin crew would have to be fluent in finnish?

If not I think this is really really poor.


User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 801 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5914 times:

I can already see the faces on the Finns onboard when they realize the cabin crew doesn't speak Finnish lol... Having just moved back to Finland, I was talking to my grandma about this. She is totally appalled lol that's oldschool for you  

User currently offlineteme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1580 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5687 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 12):
However, high utlization rate is not a guarantee of positive yields.

True true... My tickets were around 280 euro's, with pre-booked seat.



Flying high and low
User currently offlinedowntown273 From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5683 times:

Quoting bastew (Reply 13):
I would have thought that the very least a passenger could expect of a carrier from a particular country is for the crew of that airline to speak the national language.

This is becoming less and less of a requirement in the global world. I've taken domestic Spanish flights were none of the crew could speak Spanish fluently (OK, yes, it was a Ryanair flight). Also I've been on domestic French easyJet services where the crew were British operating a W pattern and couldn't put two words in French together.

Ideal? No. But it works for most of us.


User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 669 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5652 times:

Quoting downtown273 (Reply 16):

Yes, maybe on low cost carriers who have very different philosophy to offer service, but I am yet to see a national airline to operate a flight where none of the crew speaks the native language. Furthermore, AY is owned 55% by the Finnish government. For me, it does sound absurd, globalization or not.

There are of course Finns living in Spain, and maybe some are ready to move there if they get the job.

okAY


User currently offlineabrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5124 posts, RR: 55
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5369 times:

Quoting okAY (Thread starter):

Hello all,

Last September Finnair announced plans to reoragnise the crewing of its flights to Spain. Finnair Plans To Out Source Cabin Crew

Finnair has now published, in Finnish only for some reason, a Press Release stating that from February on, Madrid and Barceona flights will be operated by cabin crew based in Spain. A Spanish recruitment agency Atlas Servicios Empresariales has been contracted to supply the cabin crew.

Finnair gives one very clear reason for this, ability to cut costs as Finnish crews are no longer needed to have a lay over in the respective destinations, thus saving money for the company. No further information is being given about the Spanish crew, if they will speak Finnish or not.

I, for one, have very mixed feelings about this. I understand Finnair needs to cut costs, but surely a layover of two crews of usually E-jets cannot be such a big deal? I am also surprised the announcement has gone past quietly, it was reported in the news but no public uproar emerged and I could find no statement from SLSY, the Finnish CA Association.

Unfortunately, I see this as a try out. If this works and no one says a word, will we see this spread to other routes as well, as long as the income level is lower than the one in Finland?

Thoughts, ideas?

okAY

= What's the big deal? We live in a globalized world where capital can flow, then why not crews? If the Spanish crews can perform the same function as the Finnish crew, let the most efficient win. If saving Finnair and the subsequent effect on Finnish jobs is more than saving a few crew jobs, why this nationalistic jargon? Most successful Finnish companies have done well by going abroad. Not just Finland.

Quoting babybus (Reply 9):
The Spanish are not known for their great customer service as we all know from flying with Iberia.

= And Finnish crews are not really legendary for service   ...

Let people and firms compete. The best shall always win on merit.

Saludos,
A.

PS: I have 5 passports and believe in a merit based world. This is my disclaimer.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlinebastew From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 1028 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5218 times:

I disagree.

There are still many many people around the world that will book a ticket to fly with their national carrier in the knowledge they will feel 'more at home'. Especially those of a certain age etc. And i'm sorry but an important facet of Customer Service is for a carrier to offer crew that can at least speak in the national language. If i can't even adequately converse with a passenger, have a chat, how can I provide good customer service? Yes, Ryanair and Easyjet can get away with not offering this. They very much a promote the image of you are buying a seat and that's it. But airlines like Finnair are charging a premium for offering customer service. Now fair enough if Spanish was the second typical language of the Finns but to board a Finnair flight from Helsinki to Madrid to find an entire crew that does not speak any finnish and probably a basic grasp of english is rubbish.

Let people and firms compete, great. Foreign, cheap crews will become the norm. Crew not speaking the national language of the carrier will be universally accepted. XYZ airlines does it so why not ABC airlines? Fantastic, yields will improve, profits will increase for the airlines. But who benefits, really? The customer? The economy? No....the shareholders. Airline profits back up in the billions, yet staff salaries reducing (hey we have to compete with those Delhi based crews working for $500 per month), perfect. Will fares come down significantly? Will all the things removed from the travelling experience due to 'cost cuts' be returned? I very very much doubt it.

You know when I flew to Lapland   I made a point of booking with Finnair. I wanted being taken to their country by the finnish to be part of the whole experience. Yes, the service wasn't legendary but it was uniquely finnish. To be absolutely honest I would have felt 'ripped off' had I boarded the aircraft to be greeted by an entire spanish (or british or french or whatever) crew.

Using foreign crews has not been a universal success with passengers amongst the 'premium' airlines. Qantas for example. They have a base in London. Initially they recruited entirely in the UK (so mainly British) crew to operate the UK-Asia legs of the flights to Australia where the Aussie based crew would take over. They had SO many complaints from their Australian frequent flyers that were 'flying qantas for gods sake not BA!' that the modus operandi for recruitment for the LHR base has significantly changed. Crew have not been recruited within the UK for the last five years now. Instead, Australian crew are recruited in Australia then given the option to do a two year temporary basing in London. Compare this with Jetstar for instance (which crews its international flights from Australia with predominantly Thai based crews). What is accepted for passengers flying the low cost option will not necessarily be tolerated by frequent flyers on 'premium' airlines'.


User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 669 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5175 times:

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 18):
What's the big deal? We live in a globalized world where capital can flow, then why not crews? If the Spanish crews can perform the same function as the Finnish crew, let the most efficient win. If saving Finnair and the subsequent effect on Finnish jobs is more than saving a few crew jobs, why this nationalistic jargon? Most successful Finnish companies have done well by going abroad. Not just Finland.

Going a bit off topic, but not everyone is so excited about globalization as you seem to be, especially as it means a lot of job cuts in the county. Europe will soon be one big service sector provider when all the heavy industry has been shipped away. And now even the service is to be searched from a country where you get it cheapest within Europe.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 18):
And Finnish crews are not really legendary for service ..

So again you might think. I, as a Finn, then again do like the way they conduct service, and it well might be the reason why I book them. I like my nation's genuine yet a bit distant way of serving. In your face kind of service does not work for me.

1 have one passport and I believe not everything revolves around capitalism.

okAY


User currently offlineabrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5124 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5025 times:

Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Reply 20):
So again you might think. I, as a Finn, then again do like the way they conduct service, and it well might be the reason why I book them. I like my nation's genuine yet a bit distant way of serving. In your face kind of service does not work for me.

1 have one passport and I believe not everything revolves around capitalism.

okAY

= That is fine for you to like it. However, Finnair clearly believes its future is tied to Asia where the growth is. Why should the Asians have to endure the way Finns conduct their service? Unless you believe AY should be an airline where only Finns are welcome ... then, it is a sure fire way of folding an airline. 5 million people is not enough when all around you there is strong AND consolidating competition.

Quoting bastew (Reply 19):
There are still many many people around the world that will book a ticket to fly with their national carrier in the knowledge they will feel 'more at home'. Especially those of a certain age etc. And i'm sorry but an important facet of Customer Service is for a carrier to offer crew that can at least speak in the national language.

= You can have both. LX and LH are distinctly Swiss and German airline that can combine both.

Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Reply 20):
Europe will soon be one big service sector provider when all the heavy industry has been shipped away. And now even the service is to be searched from a country where you get it cheapest within Europe.

= As foremost a European, I hope you're right. But seeing the current state of decay, if Europe does not keep adopting to the new world, it will be largely irrelevant. Thankfully there are enough leaders in places like Germany, Holland, etc. who understand this.

Saludos,
A.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 669 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4951 times:

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 21):
AY has Asian crew members on its Asian flights, so a non-Finn does not have to "endure" the Finnish customer service. However, the strategy has proven to be successful so I guess the Asians do not have a lot to complain when met by Finnish service culture. I have never said AY should be an airline only for Finns. Finnair is, however, a Finnish carrier, thus they should not forget Finnish customers, either. With this I mean that a Finnish person should be able to expect service in Finnish on Finnair. And maybe this will materialize, as I have pointed out.

I have worked for a British airline myself as cabin crew. I do not think I would have been accepted if I had spoken Finnish in the interview. It was only because of my ability to speak English that I got the job with them.

okAY

[Edited 2013-01-09 10:08:26]

User currently offlinekiramakora From Argentina, joined Aug 2006, 549 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4886 times:

Quoting okAY (Reply 22):
I have worked for a British airline myself as cabin crew. I do not think I would have been accepted if I had spoken Finnish in the interview. It was only because of my ability to speak English that I got the job with them.

English is a global language. Finnish is not.


User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1053 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4838 times:

This is very easy. Ask those passengers if they are willing to pay only 3 euros more per ticket just for the sake of having someone speaking Finnish instead of English. And let's see what happens.

Quoting babybus (Reply 9):
The Spanish are not known for their great customer service as we all know from flying with Iberia.

That probably has more to do with IB's "goverment-worker" culture than anything else. For instance, my experiences with Spanair (RIP) have been quite pleasant on that side. Even Vueling TCPs are not particularly bad (for a low-cost service).


25 Post contains images abrelosojos : = Absolutely . Saludos, A.
26 FlyboyOz : I have heard from the news about Emirates incident at the SYD airport. Middle East men were angry with Emirates because it doesn't have a cabin crew w
27 teme82 : Well that just made my day .... Perhaps EK should teach them some "words" like .... Never mind I don't need visit from the CIA's counterpart in Finla
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Finnair Trains New Cabin Crew - Price 1731€! posted Fri Aug 3 2012 01:04:33 by okAY
Did The DeHavilland Heron Operate With Cabin Crew? posted Thu Nov 3 2011 14:43:20 by Jackbr
Cabin Crew With No English... Important? posted Wed Dec 1 2010 15:26:50 by dmerinop
Finnair South Korean Cabin Crew Training Failed posted Tue May 20 2008 15:04:58 by OkAY
Santa Barbara Replaces 763 With A310(Spain Routes) posted Tue Apr 4 2006 18:08:17 by Luisde8cd
Joining Cabin Crew With A Hearing Disability? posted Mon Jan 30 2006 03:41:23 by Malaysia
Air NZ Reaches Agreement With Long Haul Cabin Crew posted Mon Jul 25 2005 07:09:21 by 777ER
Cabin Crew Numbers, Flights Into Australia? posted Thu Dec 6 2012 19:45:53 by pugsley
EK 203 Cabin Crew Injured Due To Turbulence? posted Tue Dec 4 2012 05:45:02 by gauravpai
BA Cabin Crew Redundancies posted Tue Dec 4 2012 05:43:55 by Bongodog1964