Finnair has now published, in Finnish only for some reason, a Press Release stating that from February on, Madrid and Barceona flights will be operated by cabin crew based in Spain. A Spanish recruitment agency Atlas Servicios Empresariales has been contracted to supply the cabin crew.
Finnair gives one very clear reason for this, ability to cut costs as Finnish crews are no longer needed to have a lay over in the respective destinations, thus saving money for the company. No further information is being given about the Spanish crew, if they will speak Finnish or not.
I, for one, have very mixed feelings about this. I understand Finnair needs to cut costs, but surely a layover of two crews of usually E-jets cannot be such a big deal? I am also surprised the announcement has gone past quietly, it was reported in the news but no public uproar emerged and I could find no statement from SLSY, the Finnish CA Association.
Unfortunately, I see this as a try out. If this works and no one says a word, will we see this spread to other routes as well, as long as the income level is lower than the one in Finland?
okAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 549 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4955 times:
The arrival times to HEL on both routes are scheduled to match the afternoon departure wave of Asian flights. And would not the above suggested schedule force the aircraft to stay a long period in out-station, as well?
How I see it, is that flight deck crew and aircraft rotation will indeed stay the same, the savings are made by having the Spanish cabin crew on board so that only flight deck crew has to be put up in a hotel.
Basically, the Spanish CC will meet the flight deck crew in the morning, fly to HEL, the flight deck crew will change to a fresh one, when again the CC will fly back to Spain.
Can this be done by the same crew? If so, there you go the saving of overnighting a crew.
Then the aircraft would be available for some other flight after the arrival - maybe domestic? Maybe Canaries and back?
That timetable wouldn't work well feeding the Asia flights, too early departures. Their Asia service has a surprisigly big role here too.
The HEL-Canaries routes are too long for their current NB Airbuses, but the new A321 sharklet version they are receiving this year can do the job, giving more flexibility.
The problem is that in order to get pax from Spain to connect to the Asia flights, they need to leave Spain quite early, way before noon anyway. Now, if the crew was to do a turn-around flight, it would mean a departure from HEL around 3-4am, which would not work, either.
debonair From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2098 posts, RR: 4 Reply 7, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3719 times:
Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Thread starter): Finnair has now published, in Finnish only for some reason, a Press Release stating that from February on, Madrid and Barceona flights will be operated by cabin crew based in Spain.
What will happen next? First AY tried to operate these route with wet-leased smartlynx A320, but this seemed not to be successful enough (cost wise)?!
So the question will be, will AY have in 10 years time still OWN crew or not. The ERJ is already flown by flyBE Nordic...
A brief answer would be, in European operations, no.
Finnair wants to get rid of European flights, one way or the other. But they cannot support the Asia network without the feeder traffic. I think we will see more these kind of "fix it so it doesn't leak" -solutions in the future. Or other option is, AY sells the Euro-ops to someone, for example FlyBe.
Workforce agencies have made it very easy to do this. All an airline needs to do is sign a contract with the agency and the rest is taken care of by them. What is the quality of all this and will it show in passenger satisfaction/dissatisfaction, is to be seen.
In regards to these two specific routes, I think they were chosen because AY wants to keep them, but they were bleeding badly. They offer the perfect test platform to see what happens in such an agreement. If it proves to be success, let's get the party started on other routes as well....?
babybus From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3514 posts, RR: 6 Reply 9, posted (4 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3192 times:
It's only my opinion but Finnair seem to be getting it all wrong these days.
Firstly with their ghastly livery and now putting Spanish crews on their flights. The Spanish are not known for their great customer service as we all know from flying with Iberia.
Look at the way BA started flag waving for the Olympics being more British to sell itself to the world. Finnair might do well to take the same approach.
I have a bad feeling about all of this. European routes bleeding money, very soon well see them asking for an EU bailout.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
HELyes From Finland, joined Oct 2010, 644 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (4 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3101 times:
Quoting babybus (Reply 10): I have a bad feeling about all of this. European routes bleeding money, very soon well see them asking for an EU bailout.
Actually their year 2012 looks ok. The third quarter was their best ever and 2012 is expected to show profit.
A large part of their European traffic is handled by FlyBe Nordic already, now also the Embraers (though in AY colors) and it seems to be working. They sink or survive with Asia, if the feeding traffic bleeds they have to fix it.
Not sure what to think of the Spanish crew, but let see how that works in practise. They have had Asian flight attendants from the same company Adecco on their Asian routes for a long time already.
teme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1149 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2745 times:
I think that they aren't bleeding that much on EU routes. Yeah there are some routes that aren't making profit. The trunk routes like HEL-LHR/CDG/FRA are in my opinion doing ok. Heck AY 831 on 6th of Jan was full! I know since I was on board on the OH-LZD an A321-211. Ok the U20 Canadian Ice Hockey team was on board
FlyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 644 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2517 times:
Quoting teme82 (Reply 11): Ok the U20 Canadian Ice Hockey team was on board
Yeah, noticed the special AY flight from Ufa to Helsinki on Friday night. I can imagine that the Finnish national team was not the only customer on board that flight. Probably they routed some other teams on other AY flights.
Quoting teme82 (Reply 11): I think that they aren't bleeding that much on EU routes.
Quoting teme82 (Reply 11): Heck AY 831 on 6th of Jan was full!
However, high utlization rate is not a guarantee of positive yields.
bastew From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 1007 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (4 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2507 times:
I would have thought that the very least a passenger could expect of a carrier from a particular country is for the crew of that airline to speak the national language.
Surely at least ONE of the cabin crew would have to be fluent in finnish?
toobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 673 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2476 times:
I can already see the faces on the Finns onboard when they realize the cabin crew doesn't speak Finnish lol... Having just moved back to Finland, I was talking to my grandma about this. She is totally appalled lol that's oldschool for you
downtown273 From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 263 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2245 times:
Quoting bastew (Reply 13): I would have thought that the very least a passenger could expect of a carrier from a particular country is for the crew of that airline to speak the national language.
This is becoming less and less of a requirement in the global world. I've taken domestic Spanish flights were none of the crew could speak Spanish fluently (OK, yes, it was a Ryanair flight). Also I've been on domestic French easyJet services where the crew were British operating a W pattern and couldn't put two words in French together.
Yes, maybe on low cost carriers who have very different philosophy to offer service, but I am yet to see a national airline to operate a flight where none of the crew speaks the native language. Furthermore, AY is owned 55% by the Finnish government. For me, it does sound absurd, globalization or not.
There are of course Finns living in Spain, and maybe some are ready to move there if they get the job.
Last September Finnair announced plans to reoragnise the crewing of its flights to Spain. Finnair Plans To Out Source Cabin Crew
Finnair has now published, in Finnish only for some reason, a Press Release stating that from February on, Madrid and Barceona flights will be operated by cabin crew based in Spain. A Spanish recruitment agency Atlas Servicios Empresariales has been contracted to supply the cabin crew.
Finnair gives one very clear reason for this, ability to cut costs as Finnish crews are no longer needed to have a lay over in the respective destinations, thus saving money for the company. No further information is being given about the Spanish crew, if they will speak Finnish or not.
I, for one, have very mixed feelings about this. I understand Finnair needs to cut costs, but surely a layover of two crews of usually E-jets cannot be such a big deal? I am also surprised the announcement has gone past quietly, it was reported in the news but no public uproar emerged and I could find no statement from SLSY, the Finnish CA Association.
Unfortunately, I see this as a try out. If this works and no one says a word, will we see this spread to other routes as well, as long as the income level is lower than the one in Finland?
Thoughts, ideas?
okAY
= What's the big deal? We live in a globalized world where capital can flow, then why not crews? If the Spanish crews can perform the same function as the Finnish crew, let the most efficient win. If saving Finnair and the subsequent effect on Finnish jobs is more than saving a few crew jobs, why this nationalistic jargon? Most successful Finnish companies have done well by going abroad. Not just Finland.
Quoting babybus (Reply 9): The Spanish are not known for their great customer service as we all know from flying with Iberia.
= And Finnish crews are not really legendary for service ...
Let people and firms compete. The best shall always win on merit.
Saludos,
A.
PS: I have 5 passports and believe in a merit based world. This is my disclaimer.
bastew From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 1007 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1780 times:
I disagree.
There are still many many people around the world that will book a ticket to fly with their national carrier in the knowledge they will feel 'more at home'. Especially those of a certain age etc. And i'm sorry but an important facet of Customer Service is for a carrier to offer crew that can at least speak in the national language. If i can't even adequately converse with a passenger, have a chat, how can I provide good customer service? Yes, Ryanair and Easyjet can get away with not offering this. They very much a promote the image of you are buying a seat and that's it. But airlines like Finnair are charging a premium for offering customer service. Now fair enough if Spanish was the second typical language of the Finns but to board a Finnair flight from Helsinki to Madrid to find an entire crew that does not speak any finnish and probably a basic grasp of english is rubbish.
Let people and firms compete, great. Foreign, cheap crews will become the norm. Crew not speaking the national language of the carrier will be universally accepted. XYZ airlines does it so why not ABC airlines? Fantastic, yields will improve, profits will increase for the airlines. But who benefits, really? The customer? The economy? No....the shareholders. Airline profits back up in the billions, yet staff salaries reducing (hey we have to compete with those Delhi based crews working for $500 per month), perfect. Will fares come down significantly? Will all the things removed from the travelling experience due to 'cost cuts' be returned? I very very much doubt it.
You know when I flew to Lapland I made a point of booking with Finnair. I wanted being taken to their country by the finnish to be part of the whole experience. Yes, the service wasn't legendary but it was uniquely finnish. To be absolutely honest I would have felt 'ripped off' had I boarded the aircraft to be greeted by an entire spanish (or british or french or whatever) crew.
Using foreign crews has not been a universal success with passengers amongst the 'premium' airlines. Qantas for example. They have a base in London. Initially they recruited entirely in the UK (so mainly British) crew to operate the UK-Asia legs of the flights to Australia where the Aussie based crew would take over. They had SO many complaints from their Australian frequent flyers that were 'flying qantas for gods sake not BA!' that the modus operandi for recruitment for the LHR base has significantly changed. Crew have not been recruited within the UK for the last five years now. Instead, Australian crew are recruited in Australia then given the option to do a two year temporary basing in London. Compare this with Jetstar for instance (which crews its international flights from Australia with predominantly Thai based crews). What is accepted for passengers flying the low cost option will not necessarily be tolerated by frequent flyers on 'premium' airlines'.
okAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 549 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1737 times:
Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 18): What's the big deal? We live in a globalized world where capital can flow, then why not crews? If the Spanish crews can perform the same function as the Finnish crew, let the most efficient win. If saving Finnair and the subsequent effect on Finnish jobs is more than saving a few crew jobs, why this nationalistic jargon? Most successful Finnish companies have done well by going abroad. Not just Finland.
Going a bit off topic, but not everyone is so excited about globalization as you seem to be, especially as it means a lot of job cuts in the county. Europe will soon be one big service sector provider when all the heavy industry has been shipped away. And now even the service is to be searched from a country where you get it cheapest within Europe.
Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 18): And Finnish crews are not really legendary for service ..
So again you might think. I, as a Finn, then again do like the way they conduct service, and it well might be the reason why I book them. I like my nation's genuine yet a bit distant way of serving. In your face kind of service does not work for me.
1 have one passport and I believe not everything revolves around capitalism.
abrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 4918 posts, RR: 55 Reply 21, posted (4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1587 times:
Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Reply 20): So again you might think. I, as a Finn, then again do like the way they conduct service, and it well might be the reason why I book them. I like my nation's genuine yet a bit distant way of serving. In your face kind of service does not work for me.
1 have one passport and I believe not everything revolves around capitalism.
okAY
= That is fine for you to like it. However, Finnair clearly believes its future is tied to Asia where the growth is. Why should the Asians have to endure the way Finns conduct their service? Unless you believe AY should be an airline where only Finns are welcome ... then, it is a sure fire way of folding an airline. 5 million people is not enough when all around you there is strong AND consolidating competition.
Quoting bastew (Reply 19): There are still many many people around the world that will book a ticket to fly with their national carrier in the knowledge they will feel 'more at home'. Especially those of a certain age etc. And i'm sorry but an important facet of Customer Service is for a carrier to offer crew that can at least speak in the national language.
= You can have both. LX and LH are distinctly Swiss and German airline that can combine both.
Quoting AY" class="quote" target="_blank">okAY (Reply 20): Europe will soon be one big service sector provider when all the heavy industry has been shipped away. And now even the service is to be searched from a country where you get it cheapest within Europe.
= As foremost a European, I hope you're right. But seeing the current state of decay, if Europe does not keep adopting to the new world, it will be largely irrelevant. Thankfully there are enough leaders in places like Germany, Holland, etc. who understand this.
AY has Asian crew members on its Asian flights, so a non-Finn does not have to "endure" the Finnish customer service. However, the strategy has proven to be successful so I guess the Asians do not have a lot to complain when met by Finnish service culture. I have never said AY should be an airline only for Finns. Finnair is, however, a Finnish carrier, thus they should not forget Finnish customers, either. With this I mean that a Finnish person should be able to expect service in Finnish on Finnair. And maybe this will materialize, as I have pointed out.
I have worked for a British airline myself as cabin crew. I do not think I would have been accepted if I had spoken Finnish in the interview. It was only because of my ability to speak English that I got the job with them.
kiramakora From Argentina, joined Aug 2006, 532 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (4 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1448 times:
Quoting okAY (Reply 22): I have worked for a British airline myself as cabin crew. I do not think I would have been accepted if I had spoken Finnish in the interview. It was only because of my ability to speak English that I got the job with them.
SCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 461 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (4 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1400 times:
This is very easy. Ask those passengers if they are willing to pay only 3 euros more per ticket just for the sake of having someone speaking Finnish instead of English. And let's see what happens.
Quoting babybus (Reply 9): The Spanish are not known for their great customer service as we all know from flying with Iberia.
That probably has more to do with IB's "goverment-worker" culture than anything else. For instance, my experiences with Spanair (RIP) have been quite pleasant on that side. Even Vueling TCPs are not particularly bad (for a low-cost service).
26 FlyboyOz: I have heard from the news about Emirates incident at the SYD airport. Middle East men were angry with Emirates because it doesn't have a cabin crew w
27 teme82: Well that just made my day .... Perhaps EK should teach them some "words" like .... Never mind I don't need visit from the CIA's counterpart in Finla
Sponsor Message: 
From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 549 posts, 
From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 263 posts, 
From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1018 posts, 
From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2098 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3514 posts, 
From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 1007 posts, 
From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 4918 posts, 
From Argentina, joined Aug 2006, 532 posts, 
From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 461 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
