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American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication  
User currently offlinewingnutmn From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 637 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 12833 times:

It appears an AA captain was arrested in MSP airport this am on suspicion of being over alcohol limit. He failed an initial test by police and was taken to a hospital for further testing.

Www.startribune.com

Wingnut


Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNWA330nut From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 115 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 12354 times:

Here is a more detailed link - which I am sure you were referring to.

http://www.startribune.com/local/185653732.html


User currently offlinewingnutmn From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 637 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12338 times:

Yes, that is what I was trying for. Thanks.

Wingnut



Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7551 posts, RR: 32
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12293 times:

Just one note / correction.

According to the article it was an American Eagle pilot, not American Airlines.


User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3059 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12102 times:

They initially got almost everything wrong in their haste to publish something,

First they said AA enroute Dallas and there is a mainline flight that was cancelled, AA1789.

But looks like this was the flight in question,

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/E...0/history/20130104/1210Z/KMSP/KLGA

so not cancelled at all, but about 3 hours late.



The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offlinetp1040 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 200 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 11543 times:

Nothing like getting busted at 6:30 in the morning to being drunk. Must have been still drunk from the night before.

IDIOT!


User currently offlinePassedV1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 220 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 11460 times:

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local...irlines-Minneapolis-185665312.html

Article names pilot.


User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1551 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 11321 times:

I saw the whole event unfold up by gate E15. Looks like their will be another Captain vacancy in the next bid to go out at Eagle. Sad way to ruin your career, yet alcoholism can get the best of everyone!


ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineqqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2264 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 11263 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 7):
Sad way to ruin your career, yet alcoholism can get the best of everyone!

Not necessarily. Provided he never showed "intent to fly," which means allowing the aircraft to move, he can seek treatment and maintain his license. It's a long road, for sure, but depending on the circumstances it is not an automatic loss of license or employment.



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlinepeterjohns From Germany, joined Jan 2009, 201 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 11071 times:

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 8):
Provided he never showed "intent to fly," which means allowing the aircraft to move,

Are you sure about that?
If he showed up at the Gate with a uniform on- I would very well call that "intent to fly"- I am however no lawyer.

I don´t intend to throw the book at him, but to call in sick at the Hotel would have been the right thing to do if you overcooked it the night before.


User currently offlinebioyuki From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 10917 times:

How is the legal limit for a pilot 0.04%? Considering this is commercial aviation where the pilot's livelihood is directly responsible for the lives of hundreds of passengers, shouldn't the limit be 0.00%?


Next flight: UA 726/84 SFO-EWR-TLV
User currently offlinebioyuki From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 10805 times:

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 8):
Not necessarily. Provided he never showed "intent to fly," which means allowing the aircraft to move, he can seek treatment and maintain his license. It's a long road, for sure, but depending on the circumstances it is not an automatic loss of license or employment.

Other articles stated that he was onboard, going through preflight checks when he was arrested so there is clearly intent to fly.



Next flight: UA 726/84 SFO-EWR-TLV
User currently offlinebtfarrwm From United States of America, joined May 2011, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 10760 times:

Quoting bioyuki (Reply 10):
How is the legal limit for a pilot 0.04%?
Quoting bioyuki (Reply 10):
How is the legal limit for a pilot 0.04%?

Because the body makes metabolic byproducts that breath and blood tests cannot distinguish from alcohol. 0.04% is the amount that cannot be from something other than alcohol ingestion.


User currently offlineiliam From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10650 times:

Quoting bioyuki (Reply 11):
How is the legal limit for a pilot 0.04%?
Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 12):
Because the body makes metabolic byproducts that breath and blood tests cannot distinguish from alcohol. 0.04% is the amount that cannot be from something other than alcohol ingestion.

You may also not operate a civil aircraft within 8 hours after consumption, as per FAR 91.17


User currently offlineBellerophon From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10248 times:

bioyuki

...shouldn't the limit be 0.00%?...

I agree with you that pilots should be completely free from imbibed alcohol before flight, however the problem with having 0.00% as a limit is that there are several valid reasons why a pilot might have a minute or trace level of alcohol in his or her blood, without ever having consumed a drop of alcohol.

One such reason, among several, is that the human body manufactures trace levels of alcohol naturally, with the level of trace alcohol varying from person to person.

Any jurisdiction that seeks to use zero as a limit for pilots is setting itself up for a lot of contested legal cases, with various valid and plausible reasons argued as to why the defendant had a trace level of alcohol in their blood, as well as a lot of detailed argument about the validity, tolerances and calibration of laboratory test equipment.

I would suggest that the UK/JAA/EU limit of 0.02% is actually a far more sensible legal limit, as, being so low, it is effectively a zero limit, but, being set well above the level at which the various defences regarding trace levels of alcohol could succeed, it catches those who have imbibed alcohol unwisely without criminalising those who are blameless.

It saves a lot of court time, in the UK at least, as most cases plead guilty, and perhaps, most importantly, allows the wider pilot fraternity to have confidence that any pilot convicted must have imbibed some alcohol unwisely, rather than just being the victim of circumstances beyond their control.

I hope the blood test on the pilot involved in this present case comes back negative, but if it does not, and he is shown to have been drinking alcohol unwisely, then I have no sympathy.

Best Regards

Bellerophon


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21494 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9497 times:

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 14):
I agree with you that pilots should be completely free from imbibed alcohol before flight, however the problem with having 0.00% as a limit is that there are several valid reasons why a pilot might have a minute or trace level of alcohol in his or her blood, without ever having consumed a drop of alcohol.

I, for instance, have used mouthwash containing alcohol in the past. It's not going to show up in a blood test, obviously, but I've wondered whether a breath test would notice it.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1551 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9483 times:

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 8):
Not necessarily. Provided he never showed "intent to fly," which means allowing the aircraft to move, he can seek treatment and maintain his license. It's a long road, for sure, but depending on the circumstances it is not an automatic loss of license or employment.

Yeah, it's one thing to be walking around the terminal in a uniform slightly drunk, but a totally different ball game to be sitting in the flight deck, doing departure checks drunk. If this had happened many years ago, I would maybe say he still has a chance that the union would fight for him to remain on property. However, in today's liability driven age, their is no way Eagle would take the risk of allowing him to return to duties!

Quoting bioyuki (Reply 10):
How is the legal limit for a pilot 0.04%? Considering this is commercial aviation where the pilot's livelihood is directly responsible for the lives of hundreds of passengers, shouldn't the limit be 0.00%?

Believe it or not, mouthwash can show up on a breathalyser test, which would cause problems if their was a 0.00% tolerance.



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7551 posts, RR: 32
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9297 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
I, for instance, have used mouthwash containing alcohol in the past. It's not going to show up in a blood test, obviously, but I've wondered whether a breath test would notice it.

Yes it will.

Also almost any aftershave/ men's fragrance will also show up, and most women's perfumes will cause the air around the suspect's head to be strong enough to set off a breath test.

Another possibility is that the pilot might have consumed alcohol and stopped before the 8 hour time limit, however, for various medical reasons his body might not have metabolized the alcohol consumed down to a low enough level to be below the threshold.

It does happen with some people, and they never realize until they are 'caught' what is occurring with their body.

The reason the pilot was taken in for a blood test is not just for prosecution, but to also provide him with protection if the breathalyzer gave a false reading.

The key is breath test are not accurate for exact levels of alcohol, only providing a general indication of alcohol. A blood test is the most accurate.


User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1522 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 9036 times:

Our limit is 12 hours at Eagle, not 8 as per 91.17; just an FYI.

User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1071 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8921 times:

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 18):
Our limit is 12 hours at Eagle, not 8 as per 91.17; just an FYI.

Yes, most Part 121 carriers today are 12 hours in the flight operations manual.

For many years, Northwest prohibited alcohol use on ANY layover, regardless of duration between flights. Most violated rule in the company; in fact it led to the dismissal of a captain that a few years before successfully ditched his flaming DC-7C
at night, in a stormy open ocean with the only fatality a heart attack victim in one of the life rafts. From hero to zero!
He sued NWA and won, gaining a large settlement.


User currently offlinekl692 From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 676 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8704 times:

Maybe he watch Flight By Denzel Washington one two many times.

Great Job by the TSA officeers for spotting it.



A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3602 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8373 times:

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 14):
I would suggest that the UK/JAA/EU limit of 0.02% is actually a far more sensible legal limit, as, being so low, it is effectively a zero limit, but, being set well above the level at which the various defences regarding trace levels of alcohol could succeed

Two teaspoonfuls of cough medicine will put you at or over 0.02%.

0.04% makes more sense. One teaspoon is 1/3 of a tablespoon, and when I've had a bad cough I've taken a tablespoonful of cough medicine a bunch of times. That would put me at about 0.03% for a short time. I could see someone with a really bad cold (but not bad enough not to fly) taking two tablespoonfuls before flying.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21494 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8284 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 17):
Another possibility is that the pilot might have consumed alcohol and stopped before the 8 hour time limit, however, for various medical reasons his body might not have metabolized the alcohol consumed down to a low enough level to be below the threshold.

I'd tend to believe that if that were the case (and I certainly believe it could happen), the pilot wouldn't be displaying any outward signs of alcohol, and thus would only get caught by a random blood test, not by a passenger sensing something amiss and reporting it to police as was the case here. If you are showing visible signs of intoxication (or if someone smells alcohol on your breath), that's a sign that it's not just an issue of your metabolism moving too slowly.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6127 posts, RR: 30
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8230 times:
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Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
but I've wondered whether a breath test would notice it.

A good breathalyzer won´t. Those detect the alcohol excreted by your body through your lungs ie. by your respiration. Thus, mouth wash won´t set them off if you don´t drink it of course. Cheapo breathalyzers may, though. And there´s a variety of those contraptions in the market.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 21):
0.04% makes more sense. One teaspoon is 1/3 of a tablespoon, and when I've had a bad cough I've taken a tablespoonful of cough medicine a bunch of times.

Don´t they have codeine too? A popular cocktail among the junkies here was cough syrup with vodka.



MGGS
User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3811 posts, RR: 34
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8210 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 22):
not by a passenger sensing something amiss and reporting it to police as was the case here.

ABC World News Tonight reported that it was a TSA agent who turned in the pilot. CNN is reporting the same thing.

Pilot arrested after security agent smells alcohol
By Aaron Cooper, CNN


Quote:
A pilot in Minnesota who was preparing to fly a commercial jet halfway across the country was arrested after a security agent smelled alcohol on him and he failed a preliminary breath test, airport police said Friday.

[SNIP]

Officers and a Transportation Security Administration agent "detected the odor of a consumed alcohol beverage as they passed by Kristiansen waiting to enter the elevator," according to a Minneapolis/St. Paul International Airport Police Department report.

LoneStarMike


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5562 posts, RR: 6
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8538 times:

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 8):
Not necessarily. Provided he never showed "intent to fly," which means allowing the aircraft to move, he can seek treatment and maintain his license. It's a long road, for sure, but depending on the circumstances it is not an automatic loss of license or employment.

There was an entire NW flight crew (Captain, FO, and FE) back in 1990 that were caught being drunk... after the flight. While the FO and FE never flew again (AFAIK), the captain spent time in prison, went through rehab, and (in a bold and controversial move by NW) was rehired, initially as a ground instructor.

He later retired as a 747 captain.


That being said, it IS still automatic termination and revocation of your flight certificates and medical licenses. It IS possible to get all three back, although the story above is the only "complete success" story I know of, and is highly improbable for this guy, if the blood test verifies the breathalyzer.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8127 times:

Truck and bus drivers have an alcohol lock in Sweden, if they fail this the engine wont start. Maybe a mandatory breath test for pilots when they arrive at the airport could be a wise thing? How about FA´s? same limits?

User currently offlineskywaymanaz From United States of America, joined May 2012, 489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7837 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 26):
Truck and bus drivers have an alcohol lock in Sweden, if they fail this the engine wont start. Maybe a mandatory breath test for pilots when they arrive at the airport could be a wise thing?

Good idea perhaps in theory but I'm not sure it holds up for commercial aviation. If it isn't part of the aircraft then that's a huge expense in training and material for every single station. Then what's the policy for irregular ops? If you made it part of the aircraft to get around that then it's another piece of equipment that can break. I remember waiting out a 6 hour delay parked at the gate on a TWA L-1011 once PHX-STL due to the PA not working. They had to fly one in from LAX and have it installed before the plane could move. A lot of passengers were extremely unhappy about that but it is required equipment
here in the US as it can be life saving in an emergency. I'd hate to think how unhappy people would be now if they learned a delay that long was because the drunk flyer ignition lock wasn't functioning.


User currently offline737tanker From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7564 times:

Quoting bioyuki (Reply 10):
How is the legal limit for a pilot 0.04%? Considering this is commercial aviation where the pilot's livelihood is directly responsible for the lives of hundreds of passengers, shouldn't the limit be 0.00%

The machines only have an accuracy to within 0.02%. So you can be 0.0% and the machine may show 0.2%

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
There was an entire NW flight crew (Captain, FO, and FE) back in 1990 that were caught being drunk... after the flight. While the FO and FE never flew again (AFAIK), the captain spent time in prison, went through rehab, and (in a bold and controversial move by NW) was rehired, initially as a ground instructor.

I had heard that the F/E did return to flying but for another airline where he eventually made captain.


User currently offlinelenbrazil From Brazil, joined Apr 2006, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7508 times:

Interesting coincidence: his name is of Danish/Norwegian/Icelandic origin. Most decendants of imigrants I know/know of have given names typical of their new homeland and his cerificate has an "ENGLISH PROFICIENT." limitation, which I think indicates he was foreign born. This happened at almost the same time a very drunk Icelandic man had to be restrained while flying to JFK.

User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1071 posts, RR: 7
Reply 30, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7511 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
While the FO and FE never flew again (AFAIK),

The F/E finished his sentence, went through the process of earning his tickets back, flew cargo airplanes and is now a pilot with American, which raised my opinion of American! His name is Joseph Balzer and his book is called "Flying Drunk".


User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1071 posts, RR: 7
Reply 31, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7488 times:

Quoting lenbrazil (Reply 29):
"ENGLISH PROFICIENT." limitation, which I think indicates he was foreign born.

No, under ICAO rules all U.S. pilot certificates now say "ENGLISH PROFICIENT" including this Florida born U.S. citizen


User currently offlineGRZ-AIR From Austria, joined Apr 2001, 574 posts, RR: 4
Reply 32, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7165 times:

When will the TSA finally start reporting fatigued pilots? That would really improve passenger safety. Well we all know many (but not all) TSA guys and gals hate pilots and reporting them makes them feel good. Concerning this case it will be interesting to see if the blood tests align with the breath tests. Imagine having your picture and name thrown around worldwide news and then it turns out you had a scoop of cough syrup... Is "guilty until proven innocent" the new motto?


When I joined A.net it was still free, haha ;).
User currently offlinelenbrazil From Brazil, joined Apr 2006, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7062 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 31):
Quoting lenbrazil (Reply 29):
"ENGLISH PROFICIENT." limitation, which I think indicates he was foreign born.

No, under ICAO rules all U.S. pilot certificates now say "ENGLISH PROFICIENT" including this Florida born U.S. citizen

OK I stand corrected, His certificate was issued 11/2/2010 did the rule apply back then? And unless there were two men named Kolbjorn Jarle Kristiansen born in 1964 he was born in Olso

http://translate.google.com/translat...UIGKDY-C8QTJnoH4AQ&ved=0CEIQ7gEwAg


User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1161 posts, RR: 17
Reply 34, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7002 times:

In Russia you go through a quick medical medical examination prior to flying (blood pressure measurement, heart rate). Takes about two minutes. No breath test, but you are sitting less than half a meter away from a doctor...
I don't think it would take too much to implement a similar procedure elsewhere. Not only for detecting drunks, but even high blood pressure related conditions that are contrary to conducting a flight...heck some of the ones I've seen in Russia aren't even doctors but nurses on their last year of med school...



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlinebond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5395 posts, RR: 8
Reply 35, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6961 times:

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 14):
I would suggest that the UK/JAA/EU limit of 0.02% is actually a far more sensible legal limit

Actually the FAA limit for performing safety-related duties is 0.02% not 0.04%. The limit of 0.04% is used for violation actions against the employee, but if the person shows 0.02-0.04%, then they cannot perform safety-related duties until below 0.02%.

I enjoy a drink, and have been know to be 'over-served' on some occasions, so my personal limit is 24 hours between bottle and throttle ... regardless of what type of flying it is.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3376 posts, RR: 5
Reply 36, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6829 times:

Quoting GRZ-AIR (Reply 32):
When will the TSA finally start reporting fatigued pilots? That would really improve passenger safety. Well we all know many (but not all) TSA guys and gals hate pilots and reporting them makes them feel good.

You would have a lot of flights being cancelled.

Like every Eagle flight crew that had a min rest 8 hour layover


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22711 posts, RR: 20
Reply 37, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6115 times:

Quoting GRZ-AIR (Reply 32):
When will the TSA finally start reporting fatigued pilots?

Just MHO, but it seems to me that fatigue shows itself much differently from person to person. I know some guys (and gals) who wake up slowly and seem fatigued in the first half hour or our after getting out of bed regardless of how well rested they are. Many of them will perform just fine an hour later.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21494 posts, RR: 56
Reply 38, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6009 times:

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 24):
ABC World News Tonight reported that it was a TSA agent who turned in the pilot. CNN is reporting the same thing.

I had heard it was a passenger, but I might have read something incorrect - the point is that he was intoxicated enough that someone else noticed, and that doesn't really seem like a case of obeying the relevant bottle-to-throttle rule but one's body not metabolizing the alcohol fast enough.

Quoting GRZ-AIR (Reply 32):
When will the TSA finally start reporting fatigued pilots? That would really improve passenger safety.

It would, and you'd see the rest rules revised pretty damn quick if that happened.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12213 posts, RR: 35
Reply 39, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5978 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
I, for instance, have used mouthwash containing alcohol in the past. It's not going to show up in a blood test, obviously, but I've wondered whether a breath test would notice it.
Quoting cbphoto (Reply 16):
Believe it or not, mouthwash can show up on a breathalyser test, which would cause problems if their was a 0.00% tolerance.

Only for about 15 minutes after you take it. Hence, we make sure an arrestee has nothing in his/her mouth for 20 minutes prior to taking the intoxilyzer.



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlinePassedV1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 220 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5869 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 34):
In Russia you go through a quick medical medical examination prior to flying (blood pressure measurement, heart rate). Takes about two minutes. No breath test, but you are sitting less than half a meter away from a doctor...
I don't think it would take too much to implement a similar procedure elsewhere. Not only for detecting drunks, but even high blood pressure related conditions that are contrary to conducting a flight...heck some of the ones I've seen in Russia aren't even doctors but nurses on their last year of med school...

I would guess Eagle pilots make $20/drug test, which is probably about the same amount of time, times 15 days a month=300/month times 12 months=$3600/year times 3000 pilots at Eagle = 10.8 million dollars of added expenses per year for American Eagle.

I think technically legally, one could argue, that when he got up and put on his uniform he intended to fly. And maybe you might win. But I think, in order to bring charges, I think a prosecutor would at least want the pilot to sit in his seat and do some sort of duty directyly associated with the flight. Up until that point you have some defenses. Once you sit in that seat and start your setup, the noose is on pretty tight. Up until that point you always have "I was in uniform so the TSA wouldn't steal my toothpaste, my cell phone battery was dead so I had to go to the gate-to get the number- so I could in fact call out sick, I was headed down the jetbridge with my bags so that I could stow them in the overhead bins for my deadhead home because I was sick.

Don't know how much any judge/jury would buy any of that, but it certainly leaves a question of doubt, the jury would have to argue over how reasonable the doubt is.

It's surprising that nobody on the crew said anything. Very sad.


User currently offlineB727FA From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5809 times:

Quoting iliam (Reply 13):
You may also not operate a civil aircraft within 8 hours after consumption, as per FAR 91.17

Many airlines call that rule from time of "effect" of consumption...ie, 8 hrs after you're no longer "feeling" the effect...12 hrs is a safe guide for that. One airline where I flew used "effect of consumption" as the guideline.



My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
User currently offlineGRZ-AIR From Austria, joined Apr 2001, 574 posts, RR: 4
Reply 42, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5705 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):
Just MHO, but it seems to me that fatigue shows itself much differently from person to person. I know some guys (and gals) who wake up slowly and seem fatigued in the first half hour or our after getting out of bed regardless of how well rested they are. Many of them will perform just fine an hour later.

Fatigue (at least in human factors/aviation) is not about having had a one time good or bad sleep...it is about the effects of long time recurring sleep deprivation.

My post was supposed to highlight how everyone, thanks to modern media, goes crazy because a pilot was (undangerously low over the alcohol limit) and nobody cares about the fact that millions of people everyday sit in the back of airliners that are piloted by guys and gals who are seriously fatigued and "dead tired".

G.



When I joined A.net it was still free, haha ;).
User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1071 posts, RR: 7
Reply 43, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5604 times:

Quoting lenbrazil (Reply 33):
OK I stand corrected, His certificate was issued 11/2/2010 did the rule apply back then? And unless there were two men named Kolbjorn Jarle Kristiansen born in 1964 he was born in Olso

The rule has been in effect for at least three years. No license had the endorsement prior to that, regardless of background.
Every U.S. certificate holder got a new license with the endorsement, including those like flying for many years. I'm not sure if a test is involved for non-native English speakers.


User currently offlineusdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 948 posts, RR: 2
Reply 44, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5542 times:

Quoting GRZ-AIR (Reply 42):
Fatigue (at least in human factors/aviation) is not about having had a one time good or bad sleep...it is about the effects of long time recurring sleep deprivation.

I completely agree with this, and I would add that one night of bad or insufficient sleep is nothing compared to a number of nights of insufficient sleep over a week or a number of months. I will admit that there have been times when I have felt so fatigued I questioned whether or not I should have driven to work. I'm not a pilot, so it doesn't matter as much, but when I think about everyone around me on the highway, I know I probably should have called in sick. We probably all remember the Comair incident with a fatigued pilot as well as the Colgan Air crash in New York a number of years back, which were very likely a result of pilot fatigue. In my mind, a fatigued pilot is more dangerous than one that is coming off a night of light drinking and decent sleep, but because you can't measure fatigue as you would blood alcohol levels, it's always up to the pilot to make a subjective call to determine if they are in shape to fly.


User currently offlineGRZ-AIR From Austria, joined Apr 2001, 574 posts, RR: 4
Reply 45, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5332 times:

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 44):
it's always up to the pilot to make a subjective call to determine if they are in shape to fly.

Which is, in most cases, not an easy thing to decide:
Imagine this: You are abroad somewhere on a layover in a hotel room... you did a lot of night flights against your body clock the last few months and haven't had any vacation etc...to compensate your work hours. You lie in bed...and in 10 hours you are to start your duty. Thing is...where you are it is broad daylight and everybody else is roaming about in the hotel...house keeping is pushing carts around, people walking by your room and so forth. You can't sleep one second and are dead tired.... if you call in "fatigued" at this point to request more rest/sleeping time, you will delay or even cancel the flight and cost your company a few hundred thousand dollars (rebook/accommodate/compensate passengers/cargo/airport fees etc..).

How well would you sleep if you know you just wasted 300.000+ bucks?

Take the alcohol violation discussed in this thread seriously, but don't blow it out of proportion. Let's use the latter's freed up energy to talk about tired crews. It would probably cost a few cents more to buy a ticket but then you'd always (!) have a well rested crew.

G.



When I joined A.net it was still free, haha ;).
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22711 posts, RR: 20
Reply 46, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5215 times:

Quoting GRZ-AIR (Reply 42):
Fatigue (at least in human factors/aviation) is not about having had a one time good or bad sleep...it is about the effects of long time recurring sleep deprivation.

Certainly not, but you haven't addressed the substance of my post. Doesn't fatigue show itself a lot differently person to person? There's no blood test for fatigue.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12850 posts, RR: 100
Reply 47, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5196 times:
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Wow... enough that TSA could smell the drink. This doesn't sound like a case of oops, but rather abuse.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 35):
I enjoy a drink, and have been know to be 'over-served' on some occasions, so my personal limit is 24 hours between bottle and throttle ... regardless of what type of flying it is.

   24 hours is a lot of time. A man, on average, process one serving ever 1.25 hours. If the pilot observed the 'bottle to throttle rule,' that is 19+ drinks an average man would have processed out of the system!

Most good pilots use the 24 hour rule, but will apply the 8 hour rule if they only have one or two drinks. In 8 hours, a male should process 6+ drinks out of the system.

Quoting Mir (Reply 38):
the point is that he was intoxicated enough that someone else noticed, and that doesn't really seem like a case of obeying the relevant bottle-to-throttle rule but one's body not metabolizing the alcohol fast enough.

It seems like a case of not obeying the bottle to throttle rule. One doesn't smell of booze 8 hours later when its innocent.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6127 posts, RR: 30
Reply 48, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5155 times:
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Quoting GRZ-AIR (Reply 42):
because a pilot was (undangerously low over the alcohol limit)

Sorry, but that doesn´t really exist. Please have two glasses of wine and then go ahead and do some cognitive tests. You´ll be surprised. What may be "undangerously low" on a desk job is not on many other professions, particularly on piloting.



MGGS
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5306 posts, RR: 4
Reply 49, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5135 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 48):
Please have two glasses of wine and then go ahead and do some cognitive tests. You´ll be surprised. What may be "undangerously low" on a desk job is not on many other professions, particularly on piloting.

  

It takes at least two full drinks to get a man of my size above 0.04%. I can't usually tell a difference in my own capability after one drink, but I very much can after two. There is no way I would feel safe piloting an aircraft within an hour or two after having two full drinks.


User currently offlineB727FA From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5051 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
Most good pilots use the 24 hour rule, but will apply the 8 hour rule if they only have one or two drinks. In 8 hours, a male should process 6+ drinks out of the system.

Rather pretentious statement, my friend! Plenty of excellent (in skill and professionalism) crew members use the 12 and 8 hr rule with no issues. Adherence to a non-existent double the FAR rule does not make one crew member "better" or "good" compared to another who does follow the *actual* FAR.



My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
User currently offlinePassedV1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 220 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4817 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 43):
Every U.S. certificate holder got a new license with the endorsement, including those like flying for many years. I'm not sure if a test is involved for non-native English speakers.

English proficiency is "tested" during every checkride as it is part of the checkride. The examiner makes a determination if the applicant is "english proficient". If in doubt, the examiner refers the applicant to an FAA FSDO for determination by an Aviation Safety Inspector. This has been part of the procedure since at least the late 80's when I was doing part 61/141 training. A few years ago new airman certificates were issued to be in compliance with ICAO rules. There was no change in standards or testing requirements...just what was printed on certificates.


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