Quote: According to a Port Authority spokesman, an "apparently intoxicated" man who was acting "in a disorderly fashion" was restrained by passengers and crew members on an Icelandair flight from Reykjavik, Iceland to JFK on Thursday afternoon.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
nclmedic From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 331 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 32768 times:
Mmmm, not totally sure this construes 'reasonable restraint' but then who knows the circumstances I suppose. Certainly gagging is not considered legal in the UK, and raises a few safety concerns of its own!
Can also make out that the passenger is actually lashed with tape to the seat which is clear safety infringement as he'd be powerless to escape in an emergency....
RussianJet From Kazakhstan, joined Jul 2007, 6348 posts, RR: 23 Reply 3, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 32732 times:
Quoting nclmedic (Reply 1): Certainly gagging is not considered legal in the UK, and raises a few safety concerns of its own!
That was my first thought too - he may have been noisy or foul-mouthed, whatever, but taping his mouth is not a good idea.
Quoting nclmedic (Reply 1): Can also make out that the passenger is actually lashed with tape to the seat which is clear safety infringement as he'd be powerless to escape in an emergency....
That may well have been necessary, possibly the lesser of two evils....
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
mmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 536 posts, RR: 21 Reply 4, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 32677 times:
Quoting nclmedic (Reply 1): Can also make out that the passenger is actually lashed with tape to the seat which is clear safety infringement as he'd be powerless to escape in an emergency....
he'll be fine... With enough time to sober up, he was probably calm upon landing.
I'm even more surprised he lacks any scars or markings, in that picture...
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13368 posts, RR: 64 Reply 7, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 32529 times:
Quoting nclmedic (Reply 1): Mmmm, not totally sure this construes 'reasonable restraint' but then who knows the circumstances I suppose. Certainly gagging is not considered legal in the UK, and raises a few safety concerns of its own!
Well, I would hog-tie him (hands to the feet on the back) and dump him upside down in a lav if he is still being a nuisance. No mercy with violent drunkards.
Quoting nclmedic (Reply 1): Can also make out that the passenger is actually lashed with tape to the seat which is clear safety infringement as he'd be powerless to escape in an emergency....
The purpose of tying him up in first place is to prevent him from getting out of his seat. IMO his personal risk. Get drunk on a plane and cause trouble you might not get out if it catches fire. As per the newspaper article he attacked and choked a woman, so no sympathy.
And having seen an Icelandic captain restrain a drunk passenger, who threatened to blow up the plane with a bomb, after landing until he could be handed over to the police I have noticed that those guys still have something of a viking mentality.
okAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 554 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 32527 times:
as tragic-comic the picture is, it does raise some concerns in my mind. I understand feelings got heated among the passengers and the crew, but indeed the crew should have realized that gagging someone is not the right procedure. Just the fact that the guy was intoxicated should make one realize that the excess alcohol might need to come out, by throwing up. The situation could have resulted in the guy throwing up, but not being able to let it out of his mouth, thus choking on his own vomit. The actions of the crew should be revised here, in my opinion.
N505FX From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 191 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 32429 times:
Would have been better/funnier if they "Flamingoed" him and then attached him to the seat or galley. I guess in flight, it is captains discretion - which I totally agree with in this case - especially if he was in the act of a felony - which choking a woman out would be.
ushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2890 posts, RR: 18 Reply 10, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 32222 times:
Two things that I found interesting....
#1: Nice looking IFE.
#2:
Quote: The Port Authority spokesman confirmed that the passenger, whose name has not been released, was transported to a local Queens hospital after the flight landed, but local authorities did not feel it warranted charges. They added that these types of incidents happen "once in a while, but not that often."
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13368 posts, RR: 64 Reply 11, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 32167 times:
I remember having read a while ago about some obnoxious, drunken passenger, who annoyed the whole aircrafdt, until two burly Hell´s Angels type passengers from a few rows further back politely asked the FA, if they could swap to the two empty seats left and right of said passenger. Instant peace for the rest of the flight after they took their seats.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13368 posts, RR: 64 Reply 13, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 31977 times:
Quoting Unflug (Reply 12): I'm not so sure if it is OK to publish the photo clearly showing his face: whatever he did I think that might infringe his personal rights.
Then he shouldn´t have made an @ss out of himself in a public place. Though luck.
plateman From United States of America, joined May 2007, 907 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 31744 times:
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 3): That was my first thought too - he may have been noisy or foul-mouthed, whatever, but taping his mouth is not a good idea.
article says he was spitting on multiple people, so I think it is a good idea
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4315 posts, RR: 36 Reply 17, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 31684 times:
I had to chuckle at this picture, then I had to dive into our Flight Ops Manual.
It clearly states that while restraint may be necessary, at no time may the person be attached to the aircraft in any way. This is for the safety considerations mentioned above.
This must have been a real bad case!
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
eaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 959 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 31543 times:
Quoting nclmedic (Reply 1): Mmmm, not totally sure this construes 'reasonable restraint' but then who knows the circumstances I suppose. Certainly gagging is not considered legal in the UK, and raises a few safety concerns of its own!
Quoting okAY (Reply 8): as tragic-comic the picture is, it does raise some concerns in my mind. I understand feelings got heated among the passengers and the crew, but indeed the crew should have realized that gagging someone is not the right procedure. Just the fact that the guy was intoxicated should make one realize that the excess alcohol might need to come out, by throwing up. The situation could have resulted in the guy throwing up, but not being able to let it out of his mouth, thus choking on his own vomit. The actions of the crew should be revised here, in my opinion.
The reason they covered his mouth is because he was spitting at people.
Quoting Unflug (Reply 12): I'm not so sure if it is OK to publish the photo clearly showing his face: whatever he did I think that might infringe his personal rights.
Icelandair didn't publish the photo but rather one of the passengers put this photo on Facebook
Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 16): Would he able to sue Icelandair? It looks like he has reasons to!
I doubt he could sue Icelandair. When you're flying the captain is given certain executive powers over passengers. One of the things that can do is have you restrained. It's much like the police can restrain you if there's reason to and no one would think of suing the police if the force is reasonable.
Quoting nclmedic (Reply 1): Can also make out that the passenger is actually lashed with tape to the seat which is clear safety infringement as he'd be powerless to escape in an emergency....
They probably deem it to be a bigger danger to the aircraft and passengers to not tie him to the chair.
kgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 3701 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 31478 times:
Quoting mmedford (Reply 4): he'll be fine... With enough time to sober up, he was probably calm upon landing.
Sweet !
I do keep a roll of duct tape in my checked luggage.
Unfortunately, I'm the one who usually becomes the 'passenger from h*ll'
ordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 30749 times:
Quoting plateman (Reply 18): Can anyone advise .. since the jet is flagged in Iceland and was landing in US, what laws apply? American or Icelandic?
And off topic but let's say a US Airways flight CLT-CDG diverts to LHR, whose laws then?
We had a similar discussion on another thread and the conclusion was that it was jurisdiction of the airport the plane lands in / is diverted to. Someone made a comment that a court in Ireland saw quite a few such instances from TATL fights. So in the case of Icelandic here it would be NYC and US courts, and in the CLT-CDG above it would be LHR and UK court system.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4780 posts, RR: 6 Reply 22, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 29829 times:
Quoting Unflug (Reply 12):
I'm not so sure if it is OK to publish the photo clearly showing his face: whatever he did I think that might infringe his personal rights.
You don't have "personal rights" in a public setting, unless the photo is being used for non-news commercial purposes.
Quoting plateman (Reply 18): Can anyone advise .. since the jet is flagged in Iceland and was landing in US, what laws apply? American or Icelandic?
Both, although in practice (and probably confirmed in the treaties signed) the country the aircraft lands at would handle the prosecution. Interesting though, in this case, that the Queens DA decided to not press charges... probably to allow a swift deportation.
Quoting nclmedic (Reply 1): Mmmm, not totally sure this construes 'reasonable restraint'
As long as he was closely monitored for signs of vomiting and other distress, there's nothing legally wrong with the gag. He does not have the right to be able to commit assault by spitting on and choking people, nor do people not have the right to take the steps necessary to stop the attack.
Gatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 29407 times:
Quoting nclmedic (Reply 1):
Mmmm, not totally sure this construes 'reasonable restraint' but then who knows the circumstances I suppose. Certainly gagging is not considered legal in the UK, and raises a few safety concerns of its own!
Can also make out that the passenger is actually lashed with tape to the seat which is clear safety infringement as he'd be powerless to escape in an emergency....
I'll echo others sentiments, but if someone is a safety risk, especially on an aircraft where their actions can affect hundreds of other people, said person deserves any punishment they get. The key is to safeguard the aircraft. He wasn't gagged and taped to a seat for fun.
bwest From Belgium, joined Jul 2006, 1318 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 29270 times:
I can sympathise with the pax and crew tying up the drunkard, but they've taken it too far. If there's an emergency, however unlikely, this guy has little or no chance of getting out of the plane. Also, drunk people tend to fall asleep and can vomit while sleeping without waking up. He'd suffocate, and could be dead before anybody notices.
Ofcourse it's easy to judge from the sideline. But ideally, the guy should've been tied up and then strapped in his chair with the seatbelt, and never ever obstruct somebody's mouth.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13368 posts, RR: 64 Reply 25, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 30164 times:
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 23): The key is to safeguard the aircraft. He wasn't gagged and taped to a seat for fun.
You forgot to safeguard the other passengers as well. Saliva is a biohazard and can carry infectious diseases. The alternative would be to have a burly bloke tell him to stop spitting saliva or he´d be spitting teeth next.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4780 posts, RR: 6 Reply 26, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 29947 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25): The alternative would be to have a burly bloke tell him to stop spitting saliva or he´d be spitting teeth next.
Which would make things worse, as he'd then be spitting blood.
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 23): said person deserves any punishment they get.
I disagree. This is not about punishment, this is about stopping dangerous behavior. The restraint is not a punitive measure, it is a preventative one.
CRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2081 posts, RR: 1 Reply 27, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 29819 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11): I remember having read a while ago about some obnoxious, drunken passenger, who annoyed the whole aircrafdt, until two burly Hell´s Angels type passengers from a few rows further back politely asked the FA, if they could swap to the two empty seats left and right of said passenger. Instant peace for the rest of the flight after they took their seats.
Haha That was just a brilliant idea. But what do you do when the unruly pax is a burly HA's type?
Gatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 28, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 29764 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25): You forgot to safeguard the other passengers as well. Saliva is a biohazard and can carry infectious diseases. The alternative would be to have a burly bloke tell him to stop spitting saliva or he´d be spitting teeth next.
Oh, no question! Sorry, I should've been more specific instead of lumping passengers into the word aircraft. I in fact prefer your second option. The captain should have circled over the Atlantic and given each passenger a free shot, Airplane style:
eaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 959 posts, RR: 0 Reply 29, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 29475 times:
Quoting bwest (Reply 24): I can sympathise with the pax and crew tying up the drunkard, but they've taken it too far. If there's an emergency, however unlikely, this guy has little or no chance of getting out of the plane. Also, drunk people tend to fall asleep and can vomit while sleeping without waking up. He'd suffocate, and could be dead before anybody notices.
According to the news there was one or two flight attendant watching over him at all times.
KC135Hydraulics From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 165 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 29119 times:
Everyone here at work just got a laugh at this dude's expense. NO sympathy for him whatsoever. I'll bet he never does that again.
btblue From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 546 posts, RR: 4 Reply 31, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 28949 times:
Not sure about taping his mouth up. The rest of him absolutely but you're on dodgy ground if you tape his gob shut. He could hyperventilate and have a heart attack. If he's an alcoholic/dependent, asthmatic or has an underlying cardiac condition then it is possible.
Taping him to a seat also - a slight over reaction possibly? Emergency landing and it's every man for himself.
I know he is a risk but it looks to me that taping the hands and legs is ample enough. Slightly heavy handed by the crew despite him being drunk and disorderly.
winstonlegthigh From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 45 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 28740 times:
Echoing the concerns about safety. I'm in no way defending the actions of a drunk, but he's screwed if a situation requiring a quick exit should have arisen (which thankfully, didn't happen). If he wasn't arrested for what he did, then I get the feeling that the allegations against him may have been over-exaggerated*. If I were Icelandair, I'd keep my eyes peeled for a lawsuit.
* i.e. "spitting at people" may have just been a speck of saliva expelled while he was yelling or struggling to resist restraint, or perhaps merely slobbering on himself. If he actually spit at someone, it's simple assault- he would definitely find himself in the clink after he was done sobering up at the hospital.
eaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 959 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 28710 times:
Quoting btblue (Reply 31): Not sure about taping his mouth up. The rest of him absolutely but you're on dodgy ground if you tape his gob shut. He could hyperventilate and have a heart attack. If he's an alcoholic/dependent, asthmatic or has an underlying cardiac condition then it is possible.
Yeah but what are you supposed to do if he's spitting at people in a full plane.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4780 posts, RR: 6 Reply 36, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 28735 times:
Quoting btblue (Reply 31): He could hyperventilate and have a heart attack.
Quoting btblue (Reply 31): If he's an alcoholic/dependent, asthmatic or has an underlying cardiac condition then it is possible.
Tough cookies. He shouldn't have been choking and spitting on people.
Quoting btblue (Reply 31):
Taping him to a seat also - a slight over reaction possibly? Emergency landing and it's every man for himself.
In his state, it's unlikely he'd get out on his own anyways, and would probably knock people over and block the aisles in a panic.
Quoting btblue (Reply 31):
I know he is a risk but it looks to me that taping the hands and legs is ample enough. Slightly heavy handed by the crew despite him being drunk and disorderly.
Have you ever dealt with someone who downs a whole bottle of liquor in a couple of hours? I can assure you that "drunk and disorderly" don't even begin to describe what they're capable of.
And if you read the article, you would know he was trying to choke someone. That goes from simple D&D to Aggravated Battery.
Unflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 206 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 28617 times:
Quoting eaa3 (Reply 19): Icelandair didn't publish the photo but rather one of the passengers put this photo on Facebook
I didn't say Icelandair was at fault regarding the picture.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 22): You don't have "personal rights" in a public setting, unless the photo is being used for non-news commercial purposes.
Depends on the law in question. If German law was applicable he could sue the gothamist for publishing this foto and he would win without doubt. US law is more liberal in this regard.
eaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 959 posts, RR: 0 Reply 38, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 28608 times:
Quoting winstonlegthigh (Reply 34): Echoing the concerns about safety. I'm in no way defending the actions of a drunk, but he's screwed if a situation requiring a quick exit should have arisen (which thankfully, didn't happen). If he wasn't arrested for what he did, then I get the feeling that the allegations against him may have been over-exaggerated*. If I were Icelandair, I'd keep my eyes peeled for a lawsuit.
But I think it's pretty standard on any airline for someone being disorderly to be handcuffed (with plastic restraints usually). If you're handcuffed and strapped into your seat you can't get up and leave in an emergency. The point of restraining someone is for that person not to be able to get up on his own i.e. in an emergency a restrained person can't get out.
Quoting winstonlegthigh (Reply 34): * i.e. "spitting at people" may have just been a speck of saliva expelled while he was yelling or struggling to resist restraint, or perhaps merely slobbering on himself. If he actually spit at someone, it's simple assault- he would definitely find himself in the clink after he was done sobering up at the hospital.
He spit repeatedly at people and was trying to fight people.
N505FX From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 191 posts, RR: 0 Reply 39, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 28613 times:
Quoting btblue (Reply 31): Not sure about taping his mouth up. The rest of him absolutely but you're on dodgy ground if you tape his gob shut.
Awww....come on now, whats wrong with a little "frontier justice"? You choke someone -> your hands get immobilized. You get out of your seat when a uniformed member of the crew tells you to sit -> you get restrained to your seat. You spit on someone -> your mouth gets immobilized
winstonlegthigh From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 45 posts, RR: 0 Reply 40, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 28548 times:
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 36): And if you read the article, you would know he was trying to choke someone. That goes from simple D&D to Aggravated Battery.
In which case he would have been arrested, which he was not. Wouldn't be surprised if "choking" wasn't quite an accurate description of what he was doing.
btblue From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 546 posts, RR: 4 Reply 41, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 28485 times:
Quoting eaa3 (Reply 35): Quoting btblue (Reply 31):
Not sure about taping his mouth up. The rest of him absolutely but you're on dodgy ground if you tape his gob shut. He could hyperventilate and have a heart attack. If he's an alcoholic/dependent, asthmatic or has an underlying cardiac condition then it is possible.
Yeah but what are you supposed to do if he's spitting at people in a full plane.
Move him to the seat next to the window. Move him to an area of the aircraft where he will not trouble other passengers.
I know he is a risk but it looks to me that taping the hands and legs is ample enough. Slightly heavy handed by the crew despite him being drunk and disorderly.
Have you ever dealt with someone who downs a whole bottle of liquor in a couple of hours? I can assure you that "drunk and disorderly" don't even begin to describe what they're capable of.
And if you read the article, you would know he was trying to choke someone. That goes from simple D&D to Aggravated Battery.
I see your point but there have been no charges brought against the man. And even so, taping his mouth up is not necessary.
And as for spitting, he could have been moved to the window. I wouldn't tape his mouth up for fear of suffocation.
Saying this, he could have avoided all of the above by behaving like thankfully the majority of pax.
eaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 959 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 28456 times:
Here's a news story about the incident that interviews one of the passengers. Most of the news story is in English as they interview the American passenger that took one of the photos. It explains the situation pretty well.
CoachClass From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 361 posts, RR: 0 Reply 46, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 28246 times:
I think the mouth taping of an intoxicated person is very dangerous, even if he's being watched since if he throws up--which he can't tell any one he's going to--will go right into his lungs and asphyxiate him. By the the time someone notices and takes off the tape, it may well be too late. Death by aspiration is common for drug and alcohol intoxication. What a difficult situation for any airline.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4780 posts, RR: 6 Reply 47, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 28245 times:
Quoting Unflug (Reply 37): If German law was applicable he could sue the gothamist for publishing this foto and he would win without doubt.
Just curious, is it because the Gothamist is a commercial entity, or are you not allowed to publish photos anywhere of anyone without their explicit permission?
Quoting winstonlegthigh (Reply 40): In which case he would have been arrested, which he was not.
Quoting btblue (Reply 41):
I see your point but there have been no charges brought against the man.
Charges can only be brought if the victim presses charges, or if a police officer witnessed the assault. It's likely nobody wanted to bother with going to court, filling out paperwork, etc..
As far as any other (less serious) charges, as I said, it's likely the DA is either going to let the FBI deal with it or just speed up the deportation (if he wasn't a US citizen).
eaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 959 posts, RR: 0 Reply 48, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 27938 times:
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 47):
Charges can only be brought if the victim presses charges, or if a police officer witnessed the assault. It's likely nobody wanted to bother with going to court, filling out paperwork, etc..
As far as any other (less serious) charges, as I said, it's likely the DA is either going to let the FBI deal with it or just speed up the deportation (if he wasn't a US citizen).
The airline can also press charges. But a decision like that probably takes longer than just a couple of hours.
tonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1190 posts, RR: 2 Reply 49, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 27919 times:
I am curious by the number of comments made by people suggesting its wrong to have a disruptive passenger tied down to the aircraft in the event of an emergency!
But that's what Restraint IS!!!!!
BA for example of a rather significant restraint kit which the crew undergo training on annually. It contains a very strong pair of quick cuffs (crew are trained in restraining manoeuvres so don't mess with them) and a number of straps used to physically fasten the individual to the seat including one which would even tie his/her feet to the seat in front.
HOWEVER
There is also a quick cutter knife which can be used by a crew member or person nearby to rapidly slice through the straps and release the person in the event of a emergency. I'm sure there was a similar cutting device on board Icelandair.
At the end of the day, if you act the maggot at 32000 you've already endangered that aircraft so you don't deserve any freedom.
Unflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 206 posts, RR: 0 Reply 50, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 27848 times:
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 47): Just curious, is it because the Gothamist is a commercial entity, or are you not allowed to publish photos anywhere of anyone without their explicit permission?
It is the latter. You generally do need explicit permission with a few exemptions:
a) if the subject is a person of historical interest
b) if the subject is only a minor part of the picture
c) if the picture shows something like a public event or demonstration (where b) usually applies as well)
d) if there is an artistic interest valuing higher than the personal right
If in doubt permission is usually also assumed if the subject has received payment.
Quoting eaa3 (Reply 44): Here's a news story about the incident that interviews one of the passengers.
They pixeled his face in this video, possibly Iceland has similar laws.
Gatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 51, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 27670 times:
It appears they didn't completely cover his mouth, only taping his top lip.
Either way, I am shocked that people are defending this individual. Sure he could've asphyxiated on his vomit. Yeah, there could've been an emergency landing. But the more likely possibility would have been an escalation in violence or continued interference with the flight crew if the passenger wasn't restrained this way. If you can't control your liquor intake or drug use for a few hours on an aircraft, DON'T FLY. You are being selfish and are a risk to every passenger on the aircraft.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13368 posts, RR: 64 Reply 52, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 27266 times:
Quoting Unflug (Reply 50): It is the latter. You generally do need explicit permission with a few exemptions:
a) if the subject is a person of historical interest
b) if the subject is only a minor part of the picture
c) if the picture shows something like a public event or demonstration (where b) usually applies as well)
d) if there is an artistic interest valuing higher than the personal right
If in doubt permission is usually also assumed if the subject has received payment.
That´s German law and AFIAK, there is also an exemption for newsworthy stuff, else all the press photographers would be out of a job. And that restrained guy is defintely pressworthy.
peterjohns From Germany, joined Jan 2009, 157 posts, RR: 2 Reply 55, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 22970 times:
What a picture!
If it would be a little more in focus I am sure it would make the Top 5 on Airliners front page (why doesn´t it?- this is far better then the usual military jet pics...)
Something else catches my eye which hasn´t been mentioned yet- the photo seems to be have taken on the ground- that blue structure in the background could belong to a jetbridge or something similar...
I don´t think he could file a law suit against the airline- probably it was some fellow passengers that tied him up in the first place, and only because he was causing to be a safety issue himself.
Thanks for sharing this great photo and story- now this is something you don´t see every day!!
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 56, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 22096 times:
Quote:
The Port Authority spokesman confirmed that the passenger, whose name has not been released, was transported to a local Queens hospital after the flight landed, but local authorities did not feel it warranted charges. They added that these types of incidents happen "once in a while, but not that often."
Really? The dude got really lucky imho.
You know why? I'm not defending this drunk guy but..... My theory is this: Icelandair took this situation a tad bit way too far. This is a safety and health issue, they could have severely hurt the man after taping him to his seat. Plus, other laws could have been broken here, including unlawful imprisonment and assault. But I gotta give the pax and crew props for being creative. It's just the wrong way to do it, they could have very well seriously injure the man, or killed him.
What if, for example, another Hudson River type ditching happened on this flight? Then the liability is in the airline and the pax.
Kudos to local law enforcement for not pressing charges. This was punishment enough, IMO. Thankfully he went to the hospital.
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 53):
Seems that restraint kits should include spit hoods.
This, I agree with.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
airproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 555 posts, RR: 0 Reply 57, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 21047 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 7): Well, I would hog-tie him (hands to the feet on the back) and dump him upside down in a lav if he is still being a nuisance. No mercy with violent drunkards.
Some sort of bondage fantasy I guess?
Quoting stlgph (Reply 14): Sorry - this is just awesome. Another reason to love Icelandair.
Don't mess with Icelandair! lol
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
Byrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 1 Reply 58, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 20911 times:
It seems as thought the europeans on this thread are all whining about this criminal's rights. While the Americans tend to side with a little frontier justice.
So lets examine some facts...
-In a confined metal tube flying at 30k feet in the air, the captain is the law.
-The drunkard in this incident was spitting on, fighting with, and choking a passenger(s). I'm not sure about the law in europe, but this constitutes assault in the US.
-The crew restrained him in totality to prevent him from not only hitting and spitting, but kicking as well.
-Like a dead body, intoxicated people also tend to slump forward and bang their heads. The upper body restraint was totally called for to prevent him from slumping into the seat back or aisle.
Could he be at risk in an emergency situation? Yes. However, he placed himself in that position and he must deal with any resulting consequences.
I say thumbs up to the Icelandair crew, and hopefully more airlines are will supply their planes with duct tape.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
It is normal procedure to land en-route if the airline feels safety is an issue. On a flight from Reyjavik to JFK, that flight would have overflown dozens of good places to drop this guy.
I find it very odd that they chose to bind the gentleman up, and continue to the destination! I also find it odd that upon investigation, no charges were laid. It almost sounds like we are not getting the whole story.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
GBerg From Iceland, joined Dec 2012, 3 posts, RR: 0 Reply 60, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 20875 times:
Hello A. netters
This is my first post here, after being reading the forums for ten months.
According to Icelandic media this man drank a whole bottle of Icelandic “snaffs” after takeoff. He then went wild grapping, choking, and spitting on other passengers. Plus he screamed that the plane is going to crass. So the situation was serious and called for drastic maters. Unconfirmed info about the man from passengers says he is 42 year Icelander. In my mind all the right measures were taken to keep everybody safe. Regarding the low since this happened over international waters Icelandic low apply on board until landing in JFK and according to Icelandic low he has no case to sue Icelandair.
Happy New Year
ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12365 posts, RR: 12 Reply 61, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 20581 times:
Boy, is he going to have one nasty hangover.
As cited, the unruly pax was transported to a nearby hospital to JFK, where he will be examined over a few days for any injuries, blood tests to make sure of his drunkenness or if using legal or illegal drugs, probably allowed to dry out, try to get his medical records, would most likely be subject to an examination by psychiatrists to determine if he had any psychological or mental health issues.
If there is any prosecution, most likely it will be by the Federal Government (Dept. of Justice, Prosecutor for the Eastern District of New York which included where JFK is located). They will most likely await the results of any medical and mental health examination. As he is not an USA citizen (apparently he is from Iceland), he most likely will be booted back home, but with restrictions including as to no access to alcohol and perhaps require an escort and Iceland perhaps pursuing criminal or civil penalties. Perhaps he should pay some money for the costs of the airline, the PANYNJ Police, the hospital and the extra costs of his return because of his behaviors.
I hope that this guy gets help for his problem with alcohol. One also has to wonder if 'duty free' alcohol is such a good idea or at least access to it during a flight although one is not supposed to consume it in-flight.
RussianJet From Kazakhstan, joined Jul 2007, 6348 posts, RR: 23 Reply 63, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 20134 times:
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 58): It seems as thought the europeans on this thread are all whining about this criminal's rights
Not sure if you include my concern about the gag in there, but if you do - my position has far more to do with the position to accidentally kill the guy and land yourself in serious trouble than it does to do with his 'rights', Not sure if you are at all trained in restraint, but we were always taught in no uncertain terms not to do that - he's had a huge amount of alcohol and has no doubt been leaping and thrashing about - vomiting is highly likely, and if you gag him and he chokes it could be you ending up behind bars.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
AA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 365 posts, RR: 0 Reply 64, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 19960 times:
I understand and echo some of the sentiments about safety.
However, this gentlemen made a choice to consume an entire bottle of liquor after takeoff, and then proceeded to spit on and choke other passengers. This passenger was a danger to himself, the crew, the other passengers onboard, and the aircraft. I believe it was entirely appropriate that he be tied up in such a way that causing further harm to any persons onboard (himself included) is nearly impossible. Though, I believe the gag is a bit excessive.
No sympathy whatsoever. Next time, maybe he will think twice before downing an entire bottle and making an ass of himself.
Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4315 posts, RR: 36 Reply 66, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18033 times:
While clearly there is a lot of emotion regarding this gentleman in this message string, one has to remember that there is a right way and a wrong way to deal with these things. And looking at that picture, if it is accurate, appears to be done the wrong way.
It is like a police officer dealing with a murderer, no matter how heinous the crime, he is not allowed to pistol whip the suspect. Even though he really really wants to. Same thing with say a child molester. I think they should be neutered with a dull butter knife, however our civilised countries allow the suspect safety until he faces justice. Even if all involved are 100% certain of his guilt. Maybe not the justice we would like, but it is the system under which we live.
It is the same thing if a passenger affects the safety of the flight and its passengers. He is safely restrained, protecting everyone else. At my airline, we are not allowed to attach him to the aircraft. As some have noted, some airlines do allow that. If it escalates, the aircraft will land short, and the passenger removed.
What we don't do is tie him up, duct tape him to a chair not allowing quick egress should it be necessary, then cover his face possibly affecting his breathing. Whether done by the crew or passengers, I would be very surprised if Icelandair does not have to answer for this apparent "mob rule".
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
Gatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 67, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 17879 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 56): What if, for example, another Hudson River type ditching happened on this flight? Then the liability is in the airline and the pax.
This picture appears to have been taken inflight, somewhere over that Atlantic. Maybe they cut him loose once he sobered up before landing. This picture shows one second of a very long, dynamic situation. Pretty hard to pass judgement on the flight crew in this situation. As I've said before, passengers aren't restrained with duct tape for fun. There was clearly a need for these actions by the crew...
Seabiscuit From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 37 posts, RR: 0 Reply 68, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 17480 times:
Your pistol whipping and restraining comparison is not in the same ball park. If this gentleman was assaulting people on the plane then the people responding had no other choice but to restrain him until they were close to an airport to land.
sankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1374 posts, RR: 0 Reply 69, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 17238 times:
While the story may be true, I have doubts about the photo... icelandair only flies 757s, and this photo does not look like a 757.... It looks more like a 767. And what is the guy in the foreground doing - rolling a joint?
You are obviously not familiar with the interior of the newer 757s, basically the same as the 737NG (non-BSI), or FI's onboard product. The photo you posted is from 2006.
spacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3277 posts, RR: 14 Reply 71, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 16924 times:
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 58): -In a confined metal tube flying at 30k feet in the air, the captain is the law.
No, the captain is in charge of the aircraft, he is not "the law". The captain could not, for example, order his flight attendants to chop this guy up into little pieces and dump him in the lavatory. Why? Because the captain has to follow the actual law like anybody else.
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 58): intoxicated people also tend to slump forward and bang their heads.
???
Doesn't sound like you're a big drinker.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
IAH59 From Pakistan, joined Nov 2012, 385 posts, RR: 0 Reply 72, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 16820 times:
I was on a flight from Dubai to Karachi on Emirates back in 2007. I had two drunk passengers across from spilling alcohol all over the place and tried lighting up a cigarette as soon as we arrived in Karachi they strapped down in to wheel chairs.
Unflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 206 posts, RR: 0 Reply 73, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 16576 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 52): That´s German law and AFIAK, there is also an exemption for newsworthy stuff, else all the press photographers would be out of a job. And that restrained guy is defintely pressworthy.
There is no such exemption in German law. The press photographers are not so much at risk, since they are not the ones publishing the pictures. And even the worst German newspaper (Bild) does put bars across faces or pixel them in a case such as the one at hand, they do it for a reason.
German law doesn't apply anyway. Nevertheless, as much as I think that the guy should be punished, I do not think that any punishment should be put into the hands of newspapers, online forums or TV stations.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4780 posts, RR: 6 Reply 74, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 16250 times:
Quoting eaa3 (Reply 48): The airline can also press charges.
Not unless he damaged the aircraft. They may be able to sue him if they incurred costs due to his behavior, but that's about it.
Quoting WROORD (Reply 54): It could be a good evidence for a lawsuit once the fellow gets sober.
Hardly. Self-defense is one of those "human rights" that Europeans pride themselves on. No way would he win any kind of lawsuit, especially if he wasn't actually injured.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 56): This is a safety and health issue, they could have severely hurt the man after taping him to his seat.
As I said earlier, tough cookies. He committed assault and battery on numerous people in a closed environment. They did what they had to in order to stop him. Just because it wasn't the "best" way doesn't mean it was a bad way.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 56): Plus, other laws could have been broken here, including unlawful imprisonment and assault.
Nope. Self-defense or acting in the defense of others is not a crime anywhere.
Even if a DA was stupid enough to charge anyone, the case would be dismissed with one simple statement:
"I felt I was in danger of serious bodily harm, and given his actions, our location, and the tools onboard, I felt this was the best way to stop the threat."
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 56):
What if, for example, another Hudson River type ditching happened on this flight? Then the liability is in the airline and the pax.
Only if the airline's published SOP offers alternative restraint methods and/or specifically forbids that type of restraint. As for the passengers: again, they acted in self-defense. You simply cannot prosecute such an action.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13368 posts, RR: 64 Reply 75, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 16255 times:
Quoting airproxx (Reply 57): Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 7):
Well, I would hog-tie him (hands to the feet on the back) and dump him upside down in a lav if he is still being a nuisance. No mercy with violent drunkards.
Some sort of bondage fantasy I guess?
Nope, just witnessed a few instances of unruly passengers myself and once got very close to a fight with two agressive passengers who threatened to hit a FA.
Quoting GBerg (Reply 60): Hello A. netters
This is my first post here, after being reading the forums for ten months.
According to Icelandic media this man drank a whole bottle of Icelandic “snaffs” after takeoff. He then went wild grapping, choking, and spitting on other passengers. Plus he screamed that the plane is going to crass. So the situation was serious and called for drastic maters. Unconfirmed info about the man from passengers says he is 42 year Icelander. In my mind all the right measures were taken to keep everybody safe. Regarding the low since this happened over international waters Icelandic low apply on board until landing in JFK and according to Icelandic low he has no case to sue Icelandair.
Happy New Year
So he did exactlöy as your ancestors did: He went berserk!
Quoting Unflug (Reply 73): There is no such exemption in German law. The press photographers are not so much at risk, since they are not the ones publishing the pictures. And even the worst German newspaper (Bild) does put bars across faces or pixel them in a case such as the one at hand, they do it for a reason.
Oh, there is in the first article. In German it reads "Personen der Zeitgeschichte"(persons with recent historical interest) . This is again divided into "absolute persons of historical interests" like politicians and "relative persons of recent historical interest", e.g. persons who were involved in siomething newsworthy. The first group can be portrait wat any time while in public (though papparazzi are not allowed to e.g. pursue them at home and their families are off limits as well), while the second group (e.g. criminals pictured while committing a crime, victims of a hostage crisis while the crime is in progress etc.) can have their pictures taken, but only in the direct context of the newsworthy event. It is also bans publishing pictures of dead and injured (or else helpless )victims of an incident. But in this case the person, while being helpless after having been tied up, was not a victim, but actually the instigator of the incident.
YVRFlyer From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 70 posts, RR: 0 Reply 76, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 13941 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25): You forgot to safeguard the other passengers as well. Saliva is a biohazard and can carry infectious diseases. The alternative would be to have a burly bloke tell him to stop spitting saliva or he´d be spitting teeth next.
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 28): Oh, no question! Sorry, I should've been more specific instead of lumping passengers into the word aircraft. I in fact prefer your second option. The captain should have circled over the Atlantic and given each passenger a free shot, Airplane style:
I like your ways of thinking! That would've taught him some manners. That or a nice stay in Uncle Sam's Cuban Beach Resort. Welcome to my Respected Members List, Gatorman96 and MD11Engineer!
Just slightly off topic, doesn't that guy look like Vegetable Lasagna man from Seinfeld?
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 7839 posts, RR: 27 Reply 77, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 13208 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 52): hat´s German law and AFIAK, there is also an exemption for newsworthy stuff, else all the press photographers would be out of a job. And that restrained guy is defintely pressworthy.
His face must be pixeled here if published. People have rights here and are not guilty until a judge has found differently and even then they have rights,
Now, as US law applies, even in the US he could sue the airline and the passengers who have tied him up like a parcel. After all, whjat's the difference getting yourself into trouble like that and drinking coffee that is boiling hot? Can anyone prove he knew that drinking booze makes you drunk?
IMHO this is a clear over reaction from the crew and the passengers and they got lucky that the guy survived that. Had he died, it would have been unvoluntary manslaughter.
If that ha happened on the way to FRA he could have pressed legal procedures against the airline, the crew and the passenger for grievous bodily harm.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4315 posts, RR: 36 Reply 79, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10187 times:
The best way to restrain someone on an airplane is the way I have seen it done, once. Tie his hands behind his back with restraining ties. Tie his feet together. Behind his back, join the two ties with another tie and cinch it tight.
Place a blanket on the floor, place him on the floor on his side on the blanket, put a pillow under his head. This keeps his breathing clear, should he vomit.
He's not going anywhere!
Have the authorities meet the aircraft, and press charges. (In Canada, the crew has to press charges, not the airline).
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 7839 posts, RR: 27 Reply 80, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9918 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 79):
Place a blanket on the floor, place him on the floor on his side on the blanket, put a pillow under his head. This keeps his breathing clear, should he vomit.
sounds great, And on an EK A380 you can even water board them vertically upside down in the shower.
Seriously, what you suggest is torture. We live in the 21st century.
readytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 2626 posts, RR: 3 Reply 83, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9762 times:
Two things to say on the matter, first I agree with CoachClass
Quoting CoachClass (Reply 46): I think the mouth taping of an intoxicated person is very dangerous, even if he's being watched since if he throws up--which he can't tell any one he's going to--will go right into his lungs and asphyxiate him. By the the time someone notices and takes off the tape, it may well be too late. Death by aspiration is common for drug and alcohol intoxication. What a difficult situation for any airline.
Second, pls take a look at the photo again, out of the windows, the horizon angle, does that look like an aircraft takingoff?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 7839 posts, RR: 27 Reply 84, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9725 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 82):
Its not torture, there are no pressure points, and he can breathe freely ... he just cant move. That picture is torture!
lying down in that position for several hours IS torture and can lead to severe medical probems., Everyone even considering that oin such a situation should know that he may get punished much more severely than the drunk guy.
Gettin drunk is not a crime per se. Screaming out loud not either. Hurtung people is and what was done to the guy in the picture here is IMHO criminal. Regardless what lead to this.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2102 posts, RR: 2 Reply 85, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9680 times:
It looks like this flyers New Years party carried over. I suppose he was happy leaving Iceland this time of year with four and a half hours of daylight each day and a whole lot of cold. http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=211
I also picked up on one additional potential safety lapse by the crew. It looks like he was duct tape to a seat over the wing which would be near a emergency wing exit which could have hampered safety. I'm surprise the crew didn't tape him to seat in a more secure area in the rear of the aircraft and let him sleep it off.
Although I commend the crew for being ingenious; this pix is a candidate for the training tapes do it this way not that way. The later of course.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4315 posts, RR: 36 Reply 86, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9492 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 85): lying down in that position for several hours IS torture and can lead to severe medical probems.
Laying on a blanket, with a pillow under his head, on his side??? Heck, that's how 99% of us sleep. And with a clear breathing passage it is how 100% of overweight people should sleep.
I can't see "severe medical problems" from that position in the time it takes to get the aircraft on the ground. However, looking at what was actually done to that passenger, I CAN see many possibilities where his safety was in danger.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 7839 posts, RR: 27 Reply 87, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9310 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 87): Laying on a blanket, with a pillow under his head, on his side??? Heck, that's how 99% of us sleep.
may be, but what if that guy is part of the 15. I move from one side to the other while I sleep numerous times. If you tie up a burglar that way in hour house here,m the police would cut him lose first of all and then have some harsh word with you.
Regarding that person in the picture, whatever the reason was, that treatment is inhumane and criminal. Not even the cops in NY put too much effort into pressing charges against him and I can understand why.
Gatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 88, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9223 times:
Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 84): Second, pls take a look at the photo again, out of the windows, the horizon angle, does that look like an aircraft takingoff?
The only object in the window is the wing and based off of the PTV screen, you can see that they appear to be in the middle of their flightpath.
We also have no idea how long this guy was bound this way. They could've completely cut him loose 5 minutes after this picture was taken for all we know. We do know that this guy was drunk and unruly, so he got what ensured the safety of the passengers and the aircraft. Again, don't want to get bound to your seat, don't get belligerently drunk. Simple really...
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4315 posts, RR: 36 Reply 89, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9197 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 88): Regarding that person in the picture, whatever the reason was, that treatment is inhumane and criminal. Not even the cops in NY put too much effort into pressing charges against him and I can understand why.
That was my first impression, and I would be very surprised if Icelandair does not have to answer to American authorities for allowing this to happen.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
Gatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 91, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9036 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 91): with the publicity that got I would be more than surprised if the lawyers are not queing up at his door.
Choke a woman, spit on others, claim the plane is going to crash, and this guy may get rewarded? What a fantastic world we live in.
He will lose in court once passengers get subpoenaed and give their side of the story. Drunk passenger should chalk this up as a life lesson learned and choose a different airline next time he decides to grace the skies with his presence.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4315 posts, RR: 36 Reply 92, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8967 times:
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 92): Choke a woman, spit on others, claim the plane is going to crash, and this guy may get rewarded? What a fantastic world we live in.
No one is justifying this gentleman's actions. However, in a civilized country, everyone has the right to be treated civilly.
It is like the child molester example I used above. Everyone that contacts him from within the justice system would love to enact their own "justice". And if they did .... there would ensue long investigations, several court cases ... and the possibility that the suspect would be set free, or given compensation. That is not what anyone wants, and that is why we have the rules we do.
If we allowed "mob rule" to succeed, as it appeared to in that photograph, then the same result may occur. The suspect may be set free, and he may be given compensation ... that is not what we want.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
N505FX From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 191 posts, RR: 0 Reply 93, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8887 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 56): Icelandair took this situation a tad bit way too far.
The ends justify the means. And for those who are crying about not diverting - you still would have needed to restrain the guy - or do you suppose he should have been able to continue to assault the cabin in the most critical phases of flight while landing at a diversion airport?
Gatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 94, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8869 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 92): If we allowed "mob rule" to succeed, as it appeared to in that photograph, then the same result may occur. The suspect may be set free, and he may be given compensation ... that is not what we want.
This is not mob rule or anybody enacting their own justice. A situation presented itself, mid flight over the Atlantic, with no quick alternate airports to divert to, where an extremely unruly passenger was a threat to everyone on the aircraft. He was restrained before the situation got any worse. Since we enjoy hypothetical's in this thread, imagine if they didn't fully restrain him and he ended up killing somebody? Again, drunk guy should feel lucky the passengers didn't give to statements to the NYPD. Guy got off easy if you ask me...
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4315 posts, RR: 36 Reply 95, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8681 times:
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 94): This is not mob rule or anybody enacting their own justice. A situation presented itself, mid flight over the Atlantic, with no quick alternate airports to divert to, where an extremely unruly passenger was a threat to everyone on the aircraft. He was restrained before the situation got any worse. Since we enjoy hypothetical's in this thread, imagine if they didn't fully restrain him and he ended up killing somebody?
I'll say this again. There are very easy ways to restrain an unruly passenger that do not involve restricting his breathing, nor prevent him from a quick egress should the situation arise.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
On another flight recently they had to land in France.... the two drunk women were taken into custody to sober up!
'Drunk' Women Force Landing of Flight
Two reportedly drunk women forced the landing of a British Airways flight in Lyon, France, earlier this week.
Flight BA2664 was headed from London's Gatwick Airport to Tunis. The flight was diverted to Lyon, the airline said, following "the continued disruptive behavior of two female passengers."
CARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 711 posts, RR: 1 Reply 97, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8534 times:
Hey, who took the picture of me sleeping on a plane?
hohohooho
Why are some people getting so worked up about the safety of this guy? IMHO he lost all his rights with misbehaving on an airplane. Just don't drink alcohol up in the air, you should know it results in a total different behavior compared to alcohol consumption at sea level.
Gatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 98, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8530 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 95): I'll say this again. There are very easy ways to restrain an unruly passenger that do not involve restricting his breathing, nor prevent him from a quick egress should the situation arise.
So don't pound a bottle of liquor during a flight! "If" a situation had arisen, tell me how safe it would be to have an overweight drunk passenger stumbling down a single aisle aircraft? He would, again, endanger every single passenger on the flight.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2102 posts, RR: 2 Reply 99, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8528 times:
Quoting N505FX (Reply 93): The ends justify the means. And for those who are crying about not diverting - you still would have needed to restrain the guy
We also have to think think there may not have been a airport within close proximity to divert too. Someone in a earlier post posted what appears to be the flight track on the IFE in the seat back shows the flight proximity to be roughly at the half way point. Here's a rough flight path between BIKF to JFK http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ICE614 for any given flight between to two airports
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4315 posts, RR: 36 Reply 100, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8490 times:
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 98): So don't pound a bottle of liquor during a flight! "If" a situation had arisen, tell me how safe it would be to have an overweight drunk passenger stumbling down a single aisle aircraft? He would, again, endanger every single passenger on the flight.
Did you not read my method of restraint mentioned above? Which incidentally is what is normally done, and has been done. That passenger would not move, not endangering anyone nor aircraft.
Remember, no one is justifying his actions, nor the need for restraint, just how he was restrained. I would not be surprised if he was not charged, because of how he was handled. I am guessing that had he been restrained properly, and the airline/crew charged him (which they may have been reluctant to do, as a result of his handling), he would be in jail right now.
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 99): We also have to think think there may not have been a airport within close proximity to divert too.
Within spitting distance of YQX.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
Byrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 1 Reply 101, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8465 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 100): I would not be surprised if he was not charged, because of how he was handled.
Spare us the bleeding heart logic. The method of restraint will have no bearing on his assault of cabin crew and passengers.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
Gatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 102, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 8337 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 100): Did you not read my method of restraint mentioned above? Which incidentally is what is normally done, and has been done. That passenger would not move, not endangering anyone nor aircraft.
No offense, but the method you recommend sounds just as "torturous," if not worse than what this passenger endured. On top of that, sounds even more unsafe in the event of an emergency. He would not be belted in and would be blocking the aisle and/or galley during an emergency.
The method that was used on this flight appears to be their best choice of restraint in this particular incident. Sure it isn't ideal and is a bit inhumane, but this is what had to be done to safeguard everyone else on the plane. He was not charged or arrested, so he should consider himself very lucky.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 7839 posts, RR: 27 Reply 103, posted (5 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8221 times:
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 91): He will lose in court once passengers get subpoenaed and give their side of the story.
In a civilized world justice is not about revenge. So far there have not been any charges agaoinst that guy and that picture here is enough to get the lawyers sue the airline on his behalf.
Taping him up that way was gross negligence, no one knows about the medical condition of that guy, what if he had died on that seat from suffocation or heart failure? Certainly intoxication might then have contributed but for those who taped him up that would be bad news because they should have known that.
Common sense was the last thing that was applied here.
Gatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 105, posted (5 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8164 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 104): You really didn't read any previous comments, did you? I give up.
I thought I did. This?
Quoting longhauler (Reply 79): The best way to restrain someone on an airplane is the way I have seen it done, once. Tie his hands behind his back with restraining ties. Tie his feet together. Behind his back, join the two ties with another tie and cinch it tight.
Place a blanket on the floor, place him on the floor on his side on the blanket, put a pillow under his head. This keeps his breathing clear, should he vomit.
Sounds pretty rough.
Either way, I agree, that in a perfect situation, this is not the best or most humane way to restrain someone, but this was in no way a normal circumstance. The crew and other passengers saw this as the best method to restrain this man and from stopping the situation from escalating more than it already had.
sweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1597 posts, RR: 0 Reply 106, posted (5 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8073 times:
Ok the mouth and vomit is a question to ask but he deserved being tied up. What other options is there? You could knock him out cold I guess..
I sat next to a drunk and I did not feel very comfortable, he started acting up and got loud, the police in Dubai escorted him off the plane
Violence is a last resort, but when people like these get to a threat can a passenger deal with it? In my case he kicked the over wing exit door, I was close to doing something violent to stop him but others stepped in. Can you be charged with assault? If a passenger threatens the safety, what are the rules?
Restraining a violent drunk might end up in a broken arm etc..
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21679 posts, RR: 23 Reply 107, posted (5 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7990 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 100): Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 99):
We also have to think think there may not have been a airport within close proximity to divert too.
ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12365 posts, RR: 12 Reply 108, posted (5 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7541 times:
One question I have is why didn't the F/A's stop this person from consuming his duty-free booze? Perhaps they just didn't see it, maybe they feared a confrontation but not allowing such drinking of alcohol is supposed to be part of their duties. I hope the airline does an investigation of that as perhaps if the person had their duty-free booze removed early on, it would have prevented this whole situation.
zkokq From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 302 posts, RR: 0 Reply 109, posted (5 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7399 times:
Every one keeps saying the what's ifs.
Well what about if this grub has some sort of disease that could be spread through saliva as he spat on people? It's to late for them. The safety for many, is better than the safety of one person as far as I am concerned. He shouldn't have been a wank. He should be counting his lucky stars they didn't strap him in a dirty lavatory and close the door for the smell to fester.
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38590 posts, RR: 80 Reply 111, posted (5 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7375 times:
This is awesome!
One of the best cabin view shots ever.
I just hope there was an Airliners.net member on-board because I'd love to read that trip report.
AR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 4926 posts, RR: 27 Reply 112, posted (5 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7344 times:
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 108): One question I have is why didn't the F/A's stop this person from consuming his duty-free booze?
About 15 years ago, back when I was young and stupid (ok, so I may still be stupid, but not young) a friend of mine and I boarded an SAS 763 EWR-OSL. Before the flight we went and bought two bottles of hard liquor at EWR´s duty free. We proceeded to consume them on board, and while the FAs noticed and we were given a couple of stern warnings, we kept on drinking merrily until the breakfast service. They even provided us with cups with ice.
Times may have changed, but your question is an interesting one. I suppose that if you are not obnoxious and can hold your liquor they´ll leave you alone. I don´t condone this, nor am I promoting ways to get away with drinking your liquor on board. But it happens.
And please, no flame fest, I´m sharing this anecdote for purposes of the discussion, I´m not really looking to be lectured.
Unflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 206 posts, RR: 0 Reply 113, posted (5 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7310 times:
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 91): He will lose in court once passengers get subpoenaed and give their side of the story.
Well: Prosecutors declined to charge him for what he did because too many passengers were reluctant to discuss his outburst with authorities, the New York Post reported.
Kaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2587 posts, RR: 24 Reply 115, posted (5 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6968 times:
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 101):
Spare us the bleeding heart logic. The method of restraint will have no bearing on his assault of cabin crew and passengers.
You obviously know nothing about criminal law and procedure. Suspects who are abused / wrongly treated usually escape conviction. As in this case, where the manner of restraint was likely a factor in the NY cops concluding that a conviction was unlikely.
So the end result is that the treatment that so many in this thread are braying in support of actually results in the abusive/disruptive pax walking away. If he'd been restrained properly, he'd be in custody facing charges.
Kaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2587 posts, RR: 24 Reply 117, posted (5 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6950 times:
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 105): Quoting longhauler (Reply 79):
The best way to restrain someone on an airplane is the way I have seen it done, once. Tie his hands behind his back with restraining ties. Tie his feet together. Behind his back, join the two ties with another tie and cinch it tight.
Place a blanket on the floor, place him on the floor on his side on the blanket, put a pillow under his head. This keeps his breathing clear, should he vomit.
Sounds pretty rough.
It's a standard restraint procedure where immobilization is required which is approved by relevant authorities and used by many, many law enforcement agencies.
toobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 675 posts, RR: 0 Reply 118, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6687 times:
After reading these comments...it's clear that people from Europe and the US have two different views on torture lol
Please don't flame me it's an observation for living in the States for nearly 20 years. Everybody in the US is always worried about the comfort of somebody that has done something wrong. Taping someone's mouth like that wouldn't most likely happen on UA or DL. However in Europe people aren't too concerned that some idiot who couldn't keep himself from spitting at people and behaving like a child gets his mouth taped and restrained. I wasn't on the flight but I say he's lucky to just have gotten taped to his seat. Spitting on someone could b considered assault in the US.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 7839 posts, RR: 27 Reply 119, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6634 times:
Quoting toobz (Reply 118): Spitting on someone could b considered assault in the US.
Here as well, definately it is an insult. But the one insulted cannot punish. If someone shows you the finger on the road, even stopping that person is a crime. That is what police is for and the justice system takes care of the punishment. This picture here shows instant punishment.
The taping of the body is too much already, for protection against spitting, they have an emergency kit on board which should have some mouth protection That would have done the job.
The laws in the US and Canada have been changed after 9/11 to cope with terrorists. With the absence of terrorists, the carriers and crews use these laws against drunkards which is totally inappropriate.
Gatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 120, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6592 times:
Quoting Unflug (Reply 113): Well: Prosecutors declined to charge him for what he did because too many passengers were reluctant to discuss his outburst with authorities, the New York Post reported.
Correct, which is why I included the word subpoena. The passengers would be required by law to give their side of the story, which I believe would not bode well in court for the drunk passenger.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 7839 posts, RR: 27 Reply 121, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6449 times:
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 120): The passengers would be required by law to give their side of the
Yup, For that you need the passengers adresses, many stay only one day at the first hotel. By the time the system is through with that, many of the Europeans are back home. Serving a subpoena in Europe, does one even have to honor that? Who pays for the expenses? OK, one has surrendered his privacy rights by forcingly giving the adress detaills to ESTA, normally the airline would not be allowed to surrender your adress, data protection laws.
Gatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 704 posts, RR: 0 Reply 123, posted (5 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6342 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 121): Yup, For that you need the passengers adresses, many stay only one day at the first hotel. By the time the system is through with that, many of the Europeans are back home. Serving a subpoena in Europe, does one even have to honor that? Who pays for the expenses? OK, one has surrendered his privacy rights by forcingly giving the adress detaills to ESTA, normally the airline would not be allowed to surrender your adress, data protection laws.
Don't shoot with cannons on sparrows.
Completely right, which is why the NY prosecutors decided not to press charges and a civil case has no legs to stand on. Far too many resources would've been delegated to this case to make the prosecution worthwhile. This does not diminish what the drunk passenger did on this flight though.
CoachClass From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 361 posts, RR: 0 Reply 124, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6113 times:
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 121): Don't shoot with cannons on sparrows.
Maybe the incident wasn't as bad a people alleged and they didn't want to expose their over-reaction? While the passengers may be reluctant to testify, the flight crew could easily and should be called to testify and the airline would certainly pay their expenses. In comparison, remember when a fellow was arrested in California for low hanging pj bottoms before the plane took off?
Now the question is, how is this fellow going to get home? Will Icelandair let him back on one of their planes???
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21679 posts, RR: 23 Reply 126, posted (5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5894 times:
Quoting sweair (Reply 116): Wouldn´t it be better if you could pick up your duty free booze on arrival on your destination, saves weight and lessens incidents like this?
There are quite a few arrivals duty free shops at various airports now. They were introduced at ZRH and GVA a couple of years ago. At GVA you basically have to walk through the middle of it just before you reach the baggage claim area.
s5daw From Slovenia, joined May 2011, 170 posts, RR: 0 Reply 128, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5397 times:
Quoting comairguycvg (Reply 122): I'm not getting the view out the window. If that's the wing, it looks as if it's bent up pretty substantialy to be at an angel like that.
I thought that was the horizon. But it also doesn't make sense that they would still be climbing out, right?
Kaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2587 posts, RR: 24 Reply 135, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4043 times:
Quoting eaa3 (Reply 132): According to Icelandic media Icelandair is going to press charges in Icelandic court.
Unsurprising. Assuming the incident occurred in international airspace, the country of registration has primary jurisdiction under the Tokyo Convention.
CaptCufflinks From UK - England, joined Dec 2012, 81 posts, RR: 0 Reply 137, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3586 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 17): It clearly states that while restraint may be necessary, at no time may the person be attached to the aircraft in any way.
Does a drinks trolley constitute a part of the aircraft? Tie him to one with the brakes off then ask the captain for a couple of steep climbs.
Stuff like this really does make me feel sorry for the passengers on the aircraft that had to deal with his stupidity.
tardis From UK - England, joined Dec 2012, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 138, posted (5 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3366 times:
Quoting CaptCufflinks (Reply 137): Stuff like this really does make me feel sorry for the passengers on the aircraft that had to deal with his stupidity.
Agreed, individuals need to be responsible for themselves, and not inflict their irresponsibility upon others.
olddominion727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 339 posts, RR: 0 Reply 142, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2250 times:
is it me or does anyone else realize the really crappy leg room?
Oh dear, that was truly pitiful viewing. I note that the article also says he was treated for alcohol poisoning, so he must have drunk a genuinely heroic amount. Interesting to hear the following from family:
Quote:
A relative told the Post, "Gudmundur likes to drink, but his behavior has the family scratching their heads. He isn't a violent person. This was not normal behavior for him. I hope he is OK."
One has to wonder what on earth pushed him over the edge like this.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
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That was just a brilliant idea. But what do you do when the unruly pax is a burly HA's type?
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