KL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 4974 posts, RR: 14 Reply 1, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 21449 times:
Sad, but not really surprising. Eastern Europe is very well covered by LCC's. Hard to compete with them when your cost base is too high. Warsaw might follow Budapest in becoming a LCC only base.
" The European consumer would crawl naked over broken glass to get low fares." Michael O'Leary
mloew From Germany, joined Oct 2011, 24 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 21200 times:
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5): Must mean 737 are gone, since LOT like their Embraer planes.
Jep, think that the EMBs go over to euroLOT, which is be 'the other government-regulated airline' the article speaks of. They currently have 13 ATRs and 8 Dash 8s, maybe the remaining ATRs will also go.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11705 posts, RR: 52 Reply 7, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 21055 times:
LO had already planned on retiring their B-737s and replacing them with the E-175/-195s. They are also rplacing their remaining B-767-300ERs with the B-787-8. I can see LO dumping all of their E-170s and most of the E-175s. Two E-175s are leased to the Polish defense ministry because of the PolAF Tu-154 crash back in 2010.
BlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1702 posts, RR: 4 Reply 8, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 20388 times:
LO recently received 400 million zlotys (around 150 mil. USD) of government help. The government calls it "repayable loan", but I hope EU knows better than that and demands it to be returned back, forcing inefficient carrier to shut down for good.
United885 From Germany, joined Apr 2011, 30 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 18744 times:
There are a lot of european customers which ordered the 787 with RR engines. (I remember VS, UX and FI)
But I can´t believe that one of them would take LOT´s delivered and undelivered Dreamliner if they should be sold...
boeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 320 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 16080 times:
I'm confused as to why LOT can not get a bailout from Poland, which is their owners (well the Treasury of Poland)
Since the treasury is their parent company shouldn't they be allowed to inject as much cash as they need? In my mind that's like BA asking IAG for money. Of course IAG is privately held but it is the parent company of BA.
I don't understand European politics really, can someone explain to me why the government who owns the airline can't invest money into it?
DLT123 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 150 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 16063 times:
Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 15): I don't understand European politics really, can someone explain to me why the government who owns the airline can't invest money into it?
It would construed be an anti-competitive subsidy that is likely to be prohibited by EU law.
Akiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 598 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 15858 times:
Quoting KL911 (Reply 1): Warsaw might follow Budapest in becoming a LCC only base.
I highly doubt that. For one, Warsaw's market is significantly larger than that at Budapest, despite having a smaller catchment area (BUD essentially serves all of Hungary, while WAW/WMI serves only the eastern parts of Poland). LOT also benefits from a large Polish diaspora in the U.S. and Canada, making trans-Atlantic flying profitable for them.
Much as the Poles love W6 and FR, I doubt that Warsaw (and Poland as a whole) is that low-yielding, especially with the Polish economy doing so well compared to the rest of Europe, that it will suddenly see the imminent collapse of LOT, and in a flash become LCC-only.
BestWestern From Ireland, joined Sep 2000, 6414 posts, RR: 58 Reply 17, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 15022 times:
I give LOT twenty-four months at maximum. They will lose a fortune on their Asian routes, and part of their 787 fleet will be offloaded.
Quoting Akiestar (Reply 17): making trans-Atlantic flying profitable for them.
I doubt that Trans-Atlantic flying is profitable for them - probably less loss making. The 787 will help this.
Quoting Akiestar (Reply 17): I doubt that Warsaw (and Poland as a whole) is that low-yielding, especially with the Polish economy doing so well compared to the rest of Europe
The polish market is notoriously low yielding, and WAW is an expensive airport to be handled in.
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7): LO had already planned on retiring their B-737s and replacing them with the E-175/-195s.
The 737s were due to go to Central wings, and be replaced by the excellent E Jets.
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7): Two E-175s are leased to the Polish defense ministry because of the PolAF Tu-154 crash back in 2010.
Quoting mloew (Reply 6): Jep, think that the EMBs go over to euroLOT, which is be 'the other government-regulated airline' the article speaks of.
Moving over part of the fleet sounds like a short term answer, solving none of the problems, as the loss making nature doesn't go away. Actually, this sounds like a political decision.
mke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2309 posts, RR: 5 Reply 18, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 13746 times:
This sure sounds disappointing, but when they say the fleet is going to be downsized, how much of this is what we already knew? They currently have 4 767s, 8 737 classics, 11 ATRs, and I think its safe to assume that those frames were already going to be phased out. The fleet is going to be made up of Q400s, 787s, and E-170/190s.
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 18): They will lose a fortune on their Asian routes
Does anyone know how WAW-PEK is doing? I know that one of the main reasons they got 787s was to start up routes to Asia, but obviously HAN didn't work and I'm skeptical as to whether LO can actually fill seats on these routes. ORD, JFK, and YYZ work because they are in large Polish population centers.
Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
BestWestern From Ireland, joined Sep 2000, 6414 posts, RR: 58 Reply 19, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 13016 times:
Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 23): Does anyone know how WAW-PEK is doing? I know that one of the main reasons they got 787s was to start up routes to Asia, but obviously HAN didn't work and I'm skeptical as to whether LO can actually fill seats on these routes. ORD, JFK, and YYZ work because they are in large Polish population centers.
HAN was never going to work. PEK has a chance, as it is a Star hub, but connecting with Air China isn't easy. Without feed from europe, and high point to point yields, this route will not work. This route will have neither.
milan320 From Poland, joined Jan 2005, 866 posts, RR: 12 Reply 20, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 13296 times:
Would be sad if LOT were to shut down, given it's history and the fact that it's one of the oldest airlines in the world.
Hope they stick around. The service in general on their European routes is good and comfortable.
BestWestern From Ireland, joined Sep 2000, 6414 posts, RR: 58 Reply 21, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 13023 times:
Quoting milan320 (Reply 25): The service in general on their European routes is good and comfortable.
Their European service is excellent. However, perception in western Europe remains that LOT service does not merit a premium. With the attack of the low cost players, quality doesn't pay anymore, and their cost based does not permit a low cost operation - they tried that with central wings.
I fear that Lot will follow Malev into the history books. Long Haul from the Balkans, Eastern Europe and the Balkans is notoriously tough. Look to Romania, Ukraine, Hungary and the Czech Republic for recent examples. Poland is no different, but for their large diaspora in North America.
LJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4140 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 12016 times:
Quoting United885 (Reply 11): There are a lot of european customers which ordered the 787 with RR engines. (I remember VS, UX and FI)
But I can´t believe that one of them would take LOT´s delivered and undelivered Dreamliner if they should be sold...
Why? UX may need some additional planes after IBs downsizing of their long haul destinations. To be honest I'm still trying to figure out from where they'll soource the additional A330s they need for their recent increases to some long haul destinations
Quoting BestWestern (Reply 24):
HAN was never going to work. PEK has a chance, as it is a Star hub, but connecting with Air China isn't easy. Without feed from europe, and high point to point yields, this route will not work. This route will have neither.
It will be interesting if NRT and ICN will be opened given their financial situation (and new route structure). AFAIK their original plan was to open these destinations after they've replaced the 787 on the current 767 routes. However, as you correctly point out, how are they going to sustain flights to these stations when they don't get enough feed?
With the backlog of the 788 I think it is pretty easy to find new owners, even if you have to change the cabin interior, some airlines would probably prefer a chance to get some frames a few years earlier than planned? The backlog is what 5 or 6 years!?
Last october I flew AMS-WAW-PEK and back and the loads on the flights between WAW and PEK were were good in economy, I think about 90%. Don't know about businessclass. A lot of transit passengers on board, some of them coming from AMS.
Also a lot of Chinese people on board, I think most of them work in Poland.
The good loads in economy doesn't say anything. I paid € 496,- for a returnticket from AMS to PEK. Don't know how many tickets are sold for this price but I can understand LO won't make a lot of money when selling tickets for € 496,-.
ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12328 posts, RR: 12 Reply 25, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10431 times:
Wouldn't some of those 767's be quite old? If I recall correctly, LOT was one of the first Soviet Bloc countries to operate USA/Euro aircraft, including the 767, even before the fall of USSR. Some of those 767's/737's may be reaching very expensive checks, or not as fuel efficient as newer models so adding to their costs.
I would also suspect that like many government owed companies, there is employment too many people, at high wages and with extensive pensions to keep the politicians happy that cripples any profits. This is compounded by LCC's like Ryanair and competing vs. trains for shorter distances on price.
skiaplg From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2012, 27 posts, RR: 0 Reply 26, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10197 times:
It would be sad to see the end of LOT. I flew with them between CDG and WAW in 2011 on an E175, and it was certainly some of the best european service I've received in a while - along with quite comfortable seating. I remember reading the in-flight magazine, with a full page article on how LOT was reducing its losses. Perhaps with a focus on the E-Jets and the 787, LOT can turn a profit, but if the EU commission decides to deny the government help, I'm having trouble seeing how LOT would continue...
dcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0 Reply 27, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9274 times:
Quoting skiaplg (Reply 31): It would be sad to see the end of LOT. I flew with them between CDG and WAW in 2011 on an E175, and it was certainly some of the best european service I've received in a while - along with quite comfortable seating. I remember reading the in-flight magazine, with a full page article on how LOT was reducing its losses.
It's been a rough couple of years for Eastern European airlines. Unfortunately, whatever LOT did in 2011 hasn't quite met its needs.
BestWestern From Ireland, joined Sep 2000, 6414 posts, RR: 58 Reply 28, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9113 times:
It's ok offering discounted transit fares when your home market can deliver a premium. However, Warsaw doesn't deliver a premium yield. As AMS serves China so well, one stop fares have to be mega attractive to work, especially with secondary carriers like LOT.
LO strategy for a while was to ditch the 737 - hence the birth of central wings. With the failure of central wings, the aircraft ended up back in the hands of LOT mainline. If they can get back to a 787/170 fleet, that would be promising. However, getting staff numbers and legacy costs back to something similar will be the toughest part of the equation. Shrinking a business is really tough, especially in a state run environment.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11705 posts, RR: 52 Reply 29, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9045 times:
I think LO will take all 8 of the B-788 order. They may have one or two of them configuered for the Polish Presidential airplane.
ordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8995 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 34): They may have one or two of them configuered for the Polish Presidential airplane.
B788 is not even an option for a specially configured Presidential airplane. It is too expensive, and Polish government does not have a need for such a large dedicated aircraft.
...if LO would still exist in 2015. So far, they are taking 5 in 2013. If EU Court rules against the government so-called "loan", its "do widzenia, nieLot".
WROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 810 posts, RR: 0 Reply 32, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8561 times:
The article has a few catch phrases, but nothing concrete. The downsizing or unifying of fleet was planned for some time. As LO gets their 787s they are getting rid of all 767. They will also get rid of all 737s by March. What is new is that K2 may take some of the E170 as LO will get 5 more E195s.
As some point the plan B is to shift all operation to K2 sort of like OS with Tyrolean.
apruzesse13 From Ukraine, joined Dec 2012, 20 posts, RR: 0 Reply 33, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8472 times:
Over the last 3 years, LOT Group, including EuroLOT, has taken delivery of 23 new aircraft:
- 8 new ERJ 175
- 5 new ERJ 195
- 2 new B787
- 8 new Q400
- 2 new B787
and has phased out 8 B737, mainly -500. Therefore a huge fleet expansion since 2009. Still will take delivery of additional 4 new B787, 5 new ERJ 195, 6 new Q400.
The announced fleet reduction of over 30% therefore seems to be only announced to gain compassion of the EU, as compared to status of 2009, the fleet will remain larger both in terms of number of aircraft and offered seats, but now only composed of NEW aircraft.
An aside question is: how did LOT obtain financing (export credit or others) for all this new fleet, given they are on the brink to bankruptcy without gvt bailout?
marcinGDN From Poland, joined Jun 2008, 95 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8173 times:
Quoting apruzesse13 (Reply 38): Therefore a huge fleet expansion since 2009. Still will take delivery of additional 4 new B787, 5 new ERJ 195, 6 new Q400.
Actually 6 B788, and as far as I know 1 E95. The Q400 fleet is to reach 20.
For me the Q400 does not make sense with a large E70/75 fleet of 22.
They should have gone with the ATR but it came down to availability.
LO has improved imho over the years, K2 is dreadful.
apruzesse13 From Ukraine, joined Dec 2012, 20 posts, RR: 0 Reply 36, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7719 times:
Quoting marcinGDN (Reply 39): LO has improved imho over the years, K2 is dreadful.
Agreed. K2 is even a greater basket case as LOT. The funny thing is that the government already bailed out LOT by buying from them around 70% of K2 at an inflated price, while K2 as an asset is worthless!!! And now they are doing same by buying the remaining 28%! and soon, K2 will itself ask for a bailout!!
Those EU anti-bailout regulations for airlines are really a laughing stock, nobody shows any respect!!
keep E75/95, get rid of E70 just like the 14 ERJs.
K2 will have to bailed out sooner than we think, it is some weird C0-turboprop hybrid.
There is also tension between K2 and LO. No wonder if K2 cancells a full flight operated for LO but operates their own loss-making routes....
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21448 posts, RR: 24 Reply 38, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7576 times:
Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 15): Since the treasury is their parent company shouldn't they be allowed to inject as much cash as they need? In my mind that's like BA asking IAG for money. Of course IAG is privately held but it is the parent company of BA.
dcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0 Reply 39, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7291 times:
Quoting apruzesse13 (Reply 38): Over the last 3 years, LOT Group, including EuroLOT, has taken delivery of 23 new aircraft:
- 8 new ERJ 175
- 5 new ERJ 195
- 2 new B787
- 8 new Q400
- 2 new B787
and has phased out 8 B737, mainly -500. Therefore a huge fleet expansion since 2009. Still will take delivery of additional 4 new B787, 5 new ERJ 195, 6 new Q400.
I suppose it really was an over expansion, based on the planned contraction.
boeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 320 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7138 times:
Thanks for the those replies, I knew it was ilegal but I was just not sure how that worked out.
I really hope this all works out for LO, it seems like this downsizing and simplifying strategy may work out. But, from the likes of other Eastern Euro counterparts; the odds are not in their favor.
airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 6865 posts, RR: 7 Reply 45, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6385 times:
Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 15): I'm confused as to why LOT can not get a bailout from Poland, which is their owners (well the Treasury of Poland)
Since the treasury is their parent company shouldn't they be allowed to inject as much cash as they need? In my mind that's like BA asking IAG for money. Of course IAG is privately held but it is the parent company of BA.
And there lies the biggest disadvantage of being owned by the government. EU law prohibits airlines from taking any government money. IAG is not a government, or a government entity.
delta777jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1130 posts, RR: 3 Reply 46, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6019 times:
Quoting mloew (Reply 6):
Jep, think that the EMBs go over to euroLOT, which is be 'the other government-regulated airline' the article speaks of. They currently have 13 ATRs and 8 Dash 8s, maybe the remaining ATRs will also go.
You would be surprised to hear that EuroLOT also operate EMB 170 AND including the presidential Embraer aircraft.
Quoting ordwaw (Reply 35): B788 is not even an option for a specially configured Presidential airplane. It is too expensive, and Polish government does not have a need for such a large dedicated aircraft.
You are right, but their current lease on the EMB 170 leased and operated by EuroLOT is also very very costly.
marcinGDN From Poland, joined Jun 2008, 95 posts, RR: 0 Reply 47, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6018 times:
Indeed, K2 leases 2E75 as VIP planes and one to LO.
The governmental deal is very lucrative, thus they burn evern more cash flying their own routes. I am confident that the government could get a far better deal on market conditions.
Hoya From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 361 posts, RR: 0 Reply 50, posted (4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 4733 times:
Quoting ordwaw (Reply 54): 60-75% is a pretty hefty premium to fly on a 788 (with a chance of a downgauge to 763) ....
How quickly are they getting rid of the 763s? Wouldn't it be more of a chance of cancellation? Though I assume since they have two 787s, one would back-up the other.
dcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0 Reply 51, posted (4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 4702 times:
Quoting Hoya (Reply 55): How quickly are they getting rid of the 763s? Wouldn't it be more of a chance of cancellation? Though I assume since they have two 787s, one would back-up the other.
I presume for the launch flights, one will back up the other.
Re getting rid fo the 763s, I guess it depends on how quickly they get more 787s.
FlyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 640 posts, RR: 0 Reply 53, posted (4 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4472 times:
Quoting ordwaw (Reply 54): Looking at WAW-ORD-WAW leaving 1/16 and returning 1/23 one can travel on
- KL/AF/DL/LH/BA for $597-650
or
- LO for $1,042
60-75% is a pretty hefty premium to fly on a 788 (with a chance of a downgauge to 763) ....
You are comparing a direct flight with a non-direct option. 400 dollars to avoid AMS, CDG, LHR and be home earlier is not that much. 787 is a nice bonus.
ordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0 Reply 54, posted (4 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 4335 times:
Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 58): 400 dollars to avoid AMS, CDG, LHR and be home earlier is not that much. 787 is a nice bonus
I agree, to a business traveler flying to/from WAW it is a small amount to pay for a non-stop, and to an enthusiast, it is a great opportunity to fly on a new plane. However, ...
For a typical WAW-ORD or ORD-WAW passenger it is a LOT of money considering ...
- average income in Poland is $1,200 per month gross
- many passengers on this route are from CIS where income is even less.
For people traveling from ORD to KRK (business center, big Motorola base / a lot of ORD based passengers are from southern Poland), WRO (a big business center), GDA, etc. it is no longer a non-stop, but a choice between connecting in AMS, FRA, MUC and connecting in WAW. Another option would be to fly to WAW, and then drive to Krakow, Wroclaw, Gdansk, etc., but it is a 5 hour drive each way.
The benefit of flying LOT and connecting in WAW is mainly the ability to communicate in Polish with the F/A's. But again, those with limited English would have the low income profile.
Last, but not least, which is very unfortunate, after the initial 'hooray' in November, both LOT (due to overall management issues) and B788 (due to reliability/technical issues) have very bad press in Poland.
Hopefully, a reliable and comfortable TATL B788 service can change these perceptions. In addition returning KRK-ORD-KRK connections in the future could help. However, at least IMHO, at being 60-75% more expensive than competition it becomes handicapped from the start.
ordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (4 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4116 times:
Quoting DLT123 (Reply 60): It all depends on where LOT sees its revenue coming from.
Almost all airlines get the majority of revenue on a flight from business/first and freight.
Good point. I agree.
One of the reasons why RZE-JFK-RZE flights were cancelled was the fact that the planes were flying with almost empty J cabin. There is a pretty large Polish community in NYC originating from south east Poland, but not that much business travel for OD passengers.
The 18J plus 21 true Premium Y, with nice IFE and specially trained crew points to the fact that LOT recognizes the true revenue source, and configured its aircraft accordingly. This should give an additional reason to fly LOT for those who are flying beyond WAW and choose between LO and LH, AF, KL, BA - especially other *A airlines (for UA M+).
dcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0 Reply 57, posted (4 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3841 times:
Quoting ordwaw (Reply 61): The 18J plus 21 true Premium Y, with nice IFE and specially trained crew points to the fact that LOT recognizes the true revenue source, and configured its aircraft accordingly. This should give an additional reason to fly LOT for those who are flying beyond WAW and choose between LO and LH, AF, KL, BA - especially other *A airlines (for UA M+).
Agreed. It looks as if LOT is making an extra effort in this area and indeed should add strength to the argument to fly LOT.
nrt1011 From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 100 posts, RR: 0 Reply 59, posted (4 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3113 times:
I am trying to imagine the Management meeting where the 787's were recommended and approved. Did they not know back then that this would not be a good decision for them? I really wonder about the quality of the Management running some of these airlines. Fleet management seems to be a difficult task for most.
Polot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1484 posts, RR: 0 Reply 61, posted (4 months 21 hours ago) and read 2715 times:
Quoting nrt1011 (Reply 65): I am trying to imagine the Management meeting where the 787's were recommended and approved. Did they not know back then that this would not be a good decision for them? I really wonder about the quality of the Management running some of these airlines. Fleet management seems to be a difficult task for most.
LOT was a early customer for the 787, ordering it first back in 2005 and about a month before the industrial launch of the original A350. What exactly do you think they should have ordered? The 788 is frankly the perfect size for them, the only major mistake I would suggest they made is the numbered ordered (but of course that was over seven years ago and they had a much larger intercontinental fleet and network). It is easy with hindsight to say the 787 so far has been a disappointment for them, but how were they suppose to know that in 2005? Things certainly wouldn't be better if they had selected the A350. They still wouldn't have new planes and would have been stuck with the A350XWB, which is too big for their needs.
dcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0 Reply 62, posted (4 months 20 hours ago) and read 2689 times:
Quoting Polot (Reply 68): LOT was a early customer for the 787, ordering it first back in 2005 and about a month before the industrial launch of the original A350. What exactly do you think they should have ordered? The 788 is frankly the perfect size for them, the only major mistake I would suggest they made is the numbered ordered (but of course that was over seven years ago and they had a much larger intercontinental fleet and network). It is easy with hindsight to say the 787 so far has been a disappointment for them, but how were they suppose to know that in 2005? Things certainly wouldn't be better if they had selected the A350. They still wouldn't have new planes and would have been stuck with the A350XWB, which is too big for their needs.
Good analysis of LOT's situation. It's clear that the airline made the right choice at the time and certainly would have been behind the eightball in terms of new aircraft had it gone for AB.
Hopefully the situation will clear up and the updated 787 will help LOT get back into shape so to speak.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21208 posts, RR: 19 Reply 63, posted (4 months 20 hours ago) and read 2652 times:
Quoting ordwaw (Reply 59): Another option would be to fly to WAW, and then drive to Krakow, Wroclaw, Gdansk, etc., but it is a 5 hour drive each way.
Polish roads are generally awful, but you are overplaying your hand a bit here. All of those drives are doable in 4 hours, and on a good day WAW-KRK is closer to 3. Much of Warsaw-Gdansk is controlled access now; I think the only part that is surface roads is Plonsk to Troun, and that's not a bad corridor for truck traffic.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
ordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0 Reply 64, posted (4 months 19 hours ago) and read 2550 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 70): Polish roads are generally awful, but you are overplaying your hand a bit here. All of those drives are doable in 4 hours, and on a good day WAW-KRK is closer to 3. Much of Warsaw-Gdansk is controlled access now; I think the only part that is surface roads is Plonsk to Troun, and that's not a bad corridor for truck traffic.
If after getting off at WAW from a TATL flight from ORD, YYZ, or JFK, and given a mid-level rental car, you can manage to get from the Chopin airport to downtown Krakow in close to 3 hours, and Wroclaw or Gdansk in 4 hours, I salute you.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21208 posts, RR: 19 Reply 65, posted (4 months 19 hours ago) and read 2487 times:
Quoting ordwaw (Reply 71): If after getting off at WAW from a TATL flight from ORD, YYZ, or JFK, and given a mid-level rental car, you can manage to get from the Chopin airport to downtown Krakow in close to 3 hours, and Wroclaw or Gdansk in 4 hours,
I expect that the drive to Gdansk isn't very hard now, though I confess that I haven't lived in Poland since 2006 and there were many fewer controlled access highways then (Krakow-Katowice-Wroclaw was about it).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
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