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WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet  
User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 535 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 24497 times:

Quite shocking, if true. It seems the 787's are to stick around though.

source: http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/...ling-polish-airline-lot-to-shrink/

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5141 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 24447 times:

Sad, but not really surprising. Eastern Europe is very well covered by LCC's. Hard to compete with them when your cost base is too high. Warsaw might follow Budapest in becoming a LCC only base.

User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 971 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 24421 times:
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The 787s better stick around, otherwise they'd have to pay Boeing a huge cancellation fee. Money they might not have

Think of Malev, shrink the fleet or close the shop... If they're leaking red ink, this might be a good step


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12569 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 24394 times:
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Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
The 787s better stick around, otherwise they'd have to pay Boeing a huge cancellation fee.

Given how late their 787s are, I'd be amazed if any cancellation fees still applied.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7152 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 24343 times:

Without feed, LO's Asian ambitions will not be successful. There is probably enough point to point traffic for US markets to be successful.


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8374 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 24318 times:
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Must mean 737 are gone, since LOT like their Embraer planes.

User currently offlinemloew From Germany, joined Oct 2011, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 24198 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
Must mean 737 are gone, since LOT like their Embraer planes.

Jep, think that the EMBs go over to euroLOT, which is be 'the other government-regulated airline' the article speaks of. They currently have 13 ATRs and 8 Dash 8s, maybe the remaining ATRs will also go.

[Edited 2013-01-05 08:02:11]

[Edited 2013-01-05 08:04:19]


Proudly flying Oman Air
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 24053 times:

LO had already planned on retiring their B-737s and replacing them with the E-175/-195s. They are also rplacing their remaining B-767-300ERs with the B-787-8. I can see LO dumping all of their E-170s and most of the E-175s. Two E-175s are leased to the Polish defense ministry because of the PolAF Tu-154 crash back in 2010.

LO currently has 2 B-787s with 6 more on order.


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1885 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 23386 times:

LO recently received 400 million zlotys (around 150 mil. USD) of government help. The government calls it "repayable loan", but I hope EU knows better than that and demands it to be returned back, forcing inefficient carrier to shut down for good.


STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineirshava From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 22300 times:

Really turbulent times for Eastern European carriers.. Malev, Aerosvit, and now LOT... I wonder how this will turn out.


“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 22055 times:

LOTs 787s could be taken by BA? RR engines, european airline etc..

User currently offlineUnited885 From Germany, joined Apr 2011, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 21742 times:

There are a lot of european customers which ordered the 787 with RR engines. (I remember VS, UX and FI)
But I can´t believe that one of them would take LOT´s delivered and undelivered Dreamliner if they should be sold...



I haven´t been everywhere, but it´s on my list.
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 21043 times:

Does LO have Q400s?
CH-Aviation doesn't show any.


User currently onlinedebonair From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2430 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 20534 times:

Quoting AF022 (Reply 12):
Does LO have Q400s?

No own ones - these DASH8Q400 are operated by eurolot SA.


User currently offlineboeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 432 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 19078 times:

I'm confused as to why LOT can not get a bailout from Poland, which is their owners (well the Treasury of Poland)

Since the treasury is their parent company shouldn't they be allowed to inject as much cash as they need? In my mind that's like BA asking IAG for money. Of course IAG is privately held but it is the parent company of BA.

I don't understand European politics really, can someone explain to me why the government who owns the airline can't invest money into it?



Work Hard, Fly Right.
User currently offlineDLT123 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 19061 times:

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 15):
I don't understand European politics really, can someone explain to me why the government who owns the airline can't invest money into it?

It would construed be an anti-competitive subsidy that is likely to be prohibited by EU law.


User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 18856 times:

Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
Warsaw might follow Budapest in becoming a LCC only base.

I highly doubt that. For one, Warsaw's market is significantly larger than that at Budapest, despite having a smaller catchment area (BUD essentially serves all of Hungary, while WAW/WMI serves only the eastern parts of Poland). LOT also benefits from a large Polish diaspora in the U.S. and Canada, making trans-Atlantic flying profitable for them.

Much as the Poles love W6 and FR, I doubt that Warsaw (and Poland as a whole) is that low-yielding, especially with the Polish economy doing so well compared to the rest of Europe, that it will suddenly see the imminent collapse of LOT, and in a flash become LCC-only.


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7152 posts, RR: 57
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 18020 times:

I give LOT twenty-four months at maximum. They will lose a fortune on their Asian routes, and part of their 787 fleet will be offloaded.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 17):
making trans-Atlantic flying profitable for them.

I doubt that Trans-Atlantic flying is profitable for them - probably less loss making. The 787 will help this.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 17):
I doubt that Warsaw (and Poland as a whole) is that low-yielding, especially with the Polish economy doing so well compared to the rest of Europe

The polish market is notoriously low yielding, and WAW is an expensive airport to be handled in.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
LO had already planned on retiring their B-737s and replacing them with the E-175/-195s.

The 737s were due to go to Central wings, and be replaced by the excellent E Jets.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
Two E-175s are leased to the Polish defense ministry because of the PolAF Tu-154 crash back in 2010.
Quoting mloew (Reply 6):
Jep, think that the EMBs go over to euroLOT, which is be 'the other government-regulated airline' the article speaks of.

Moving over part of the fleet sounds like a short term answer, solving none of the problems, as the loss making nature doesn't go away. Actually, this sounds like a political decision.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinemke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2458 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 16744 times:

This sure sounds disappointing, but when they say the fleet is going to be downsized, how much of this is what we already knew? They currently have 4 767s, 8 737 classics, 11 ATRs, and I think its safe to assume that those frames were already going to be phased out. The fleet is going to be made up of Q400s, 787s, and E-170/190s.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 18):
They will lose a fortune on their Asian routes


Does anyone know how WAW-PEK is doing? I know that one of the main reasons they got 787s was to start up routes to Asia, but obviously HAN didn't work and I'm skeptical as to whether LO can actually fill seats on these routes. ORD, JFK, and YYZ work because they are in large Polish population centers.



Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7152 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 16014 times:

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 23):
Does anyone know how WAW-PEK is doing? I know that one of the main reasons they got 787s was to start up routes to Asia, but obviously HAN didn't work and I'm skeptical as to whether LO can actually fill seats on these routes. ORD, JFK, and YYZ work because they are in large Polish population centers.

HAN was never going to work. PEK has a chance, as it is a Star hub, but connecting with Air China isn't easy. Without feed from europe, and high point to point yields, this route will not work. This route will have neither.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinemilan320 From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 869 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 16294 times:

Would be sad if LOT were to shut down, given it's history and the fact that it's one of the oldest airlines in the world.
Hope they stick around. The service in general on their European routes is good and comfortable.



I accept bribes ... :-)
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7152 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 16021 times:

Quoting milan320 (Reply 25):
The service in general on their European routes is good and comfortable.

Their European service is excellent. However, perception in western Europe remains that LOT service does not merit a premium. With the attack of the low cost players, quality doesn't pay anymore, and their cost based does not permit a low cost operation - they tried that with central wings.

I fear that Lot will follow Malev into the history books. Long Haul from the Balkans, Eastern Europe and the Balkans is notoriously tough. Look to Romania, Ukraine, Hungary and the Czech Republic for recent examples. Poland is no different, but for their large diaspora in North America.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 15014 times:

Quoting United885 (Reply 11):
There are a lot of european customers which ordered the 787 with RR engines. (I remember VS, UX and FI)
But I can´t believe that one of them would take LOT´s delivered and undelivered Dreamliner if they should be sold...

Why? UX may need some additional planes after IBs downsizing of their long haul destinations. To be honest I'm still trying to figure out from where they'll soource the additional A330s they need for their recent increases to some long haul destinations

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 24):

HAN was never going to work. PEK has a chance, as it is a Star hub, but connecting with Air China isn't easy. Without feed from europe, and high point to point yields, this route will not work. This route will have neither.

It will be interesting if NRT and ICN will be opened given their financial situation (and new route structure). AFAIK their original plan was to open these destinations after they've replaced the 787 on the current 767 routes. However, as you correctly point out, how are they going to sustain flights to these stations when they don't get enough feed?


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 14739 times:

Quoting United885 (Reply 11):

With the backlog of the 788 I think it is pretty easy to find new owners, even if you have to change the cabin interior, some airlines would probably prefer a chance to get some frames a few years earlier than planned? The backlog is what 5 or 6 years!?


User currently offlineEHRD From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 13724 times:

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 23):
Does anyone know how WAW-PEK is doing?

Last october I flew AMS-WAW-PEK and back and the loads on the flights between WAW and PEK were were good in economy, I think about 90%. Don't know about businessclass. A lot of transit passengers on board, some of them coming from AMS.
Also a lot of Chinese people on board, I think most of them work in Poland.

The good loads in economy doesn't say anything. I paid € 496,- for a returnticket from AMS to PEK. Don't know how many tickets are sold for this price but I can understand LO won't make a lot of money when selling tickets for € 496,-.

[Edited 2013-01-06 05:41:13]

User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13116 posts, RR: 12
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 13431 times:

Wouldn't some of those 767's be quite old? If I recall correctly, LOT was one of the first Soviet Bloc countries to operate USA/Euro aircraft, including the 767, even before the fall of USSR. Some of those 767's/737's may be reaching very expensive checks, or not as fuel efficient as newer models so adding to their costs.
I would also suspect that like many government owed companies, there is employment too many people, at high wages and with extensive pensions to keep the politicians happy that cripples any profits. This is compounded by LCC's like Ryanair and competing vs. trains for shorter distances on price.


User currently offlineskiaplg From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2012, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 13197 times:

It would be sad to see the end of LOT. I flew with them between CDG and WAW in 2011 on an E175, and it was certainly some of the best european service I've received in a while - along with quite comfortable seating. I remember reading the in-flight magazine, with a full page article on how LOT was reducing its losses. Perhaps with a focus on the E-Jets and the 787, LOT can turn a profit, but if the EU commission decides to deny the government help, I'm having trouble seeing how LOT would continue...

User currently offlinedcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 12273 times:

Quoting skiaplg (Reply 31):
It would be sad to see the end of LOT. I flew with them between CDG and WAW in 2011 on an E175, and it was certainly some of the best european service I've received in a while - along with quite comfortable seating. I remember reading the in-flight magazine, with a full page article on how LOT was reducing its losses.

It's been a rough couple of years for Eastern European airlines. Unfortunately, whatever LOT did in 2011 hasn't quite met its needs.


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7152 posts, RR: 57
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12112 times:

It's ok offering discounted transit fares when your home market can deliver a premium. However, Warsaw doesn't deliver a premium yield. As AMS serves China so well, one stop fares have to be mega attractive to work, especially with secondary carriers like LOT.

LO strategy for a while was to ditch the 737 - hence the birth of central wings. With the failure of central wings, the aircraft ended up back in the hands of LOT mainline. If they can get back to a 787/170 fleet, that would be promising. However, getting staff numbers and legacy costs back to something similar will be the toughest part of the equation. Shrinking a business is really tough, especially in a state run environment.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12044 times:

I think LO will take all 8 of the B-788 order. They may have one or two of them configuered for the Polish Presidential airplane.

User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 11994 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 34):
They may have one or two of them configuered for the Polish Presidential airplane.

B788 is not even an option for a specially configured Presidential airplane. It is too expensive, and Polish government does not have a need for such a large dedicated aircraft.


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1885 posts, RR: 4
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 11745 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 34):
I think LO will take all 8 of the B-788 order.

...if LO would still exist in 2015. So far, they are taking 5 in 2013. If EU Court rules against the government so-called "loan", its "do widzenia, nieLot".



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 956 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 11560 times:

The article has a few catch phrases, but nothing concrete. The downsizing or unifying of fleet was planned for some time. As LO gets their 787s they are getting rid of all 767. They will also get rid of all 737s by March. What is new is that K2 may take some of the E170 as LO will get 5 more E195s.
As some point the plan B is to shift all operation to K2 sort of like OS with Tyrolean.


User currently offlineapruzesse13 From Ukraine, joined Dec 2012, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 11471 times:

Over the last 3 years, LOT Group, including EuroLOT, has taken delivery of 23 new aircraft:

- 8 new ERJ 175
- 5 new ERJ 195
- 2 new B787
- 8 new Q400
- 2 new B787

and has phased out 8 B737, mainly -500. Therefore a huge fleet expansion since 2009. Still will take delivery of additional 4 new B787, 5 new ERJ 195, 6 new Q400.

The announced fleet reduction of over 30% therefore seems to be only announced to gain compassion of the EU, as compared to status of 2009, the fleet will remain larger both in terms of number of aircraft and offered seats, but now only composed of NEW aircraft.

An aside question is: how did LOT obtain financing (export credit or others) for all this new fleet, given they are on the brink to bankruptcy without gvt bailout?


User currently offlinemarcinGDN From Poland, joined Jun 2008, 101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 11172 times:

Quoting apruzesse13 (Reply 38):
Therefore a huge fleet expansion since 2009. Still will take delivery of additional 4 new B787, 5 new ERJ 195, 6 new Q400.

Actually 6 B788, and as far as I know 1 E95. The Q400 fleet is to reach 20.

For me the Q400 does not make sense with a large E70/75 fleet of 22.
They should have gone with the ATR but it came down to availability.
LO has improved imho over the years, K2 is dreadful.



Terra Incognita
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10835 times:

Are they going to focus on either Q400 or E, or are they keeping both?

User currently offlineapruzesse13 From Ukraine, joined Dec 2012, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10718 times:

Quoting marcinGDN (Reply 39):
LO has improved imho over the years, K2 is dreadful.

Agreed. K2 is even a greater basket case as LOT. The funny thing is that the government already bailed out LOT by buying from them around 70% of K2 at an inflated price, while K2 as an asset is worthless!!! And now they are doing same by buying the remaining 28%! and soon, K2 will itself ask for a bailout!!

Those EU anti-bailout regulations for airlines are really a laughing stock, nobody shows any respect!!


User currently offlinemarcinGDN From Poland, joined Jun 2008, 101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10661 times:

Quoting AF022 (Reply 40):

keep E75/95, get rid of E70 just like the 14 ERJs.
K2 will have to bailed out sooner than we think, it is some weird C0-turboprop hybrid.
There is also tension between K2 and LO. No wonder if K2 cancells a full flight operated for LO but operates their own loss-making routes....



Terra Incognita
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 38, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10575 times:

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 15):
Since the treasury is their parent company shouldn't they be allowed to inject as much cash as they need? In my mind that's like BA asking IAG for money. Of course IAG is privately held but it is the parent company of BA.

No they can't. EU comments related to recent approval of restrucuring aid for Czech Airlines. See the "Background" section.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-12-981_en.htm

More on the rules which were amended in 2004.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-04-856_en.htm?locale=en
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-04-172_en.htm?locale=en


User currently offlinedcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10290 times:

Quoting apruzesse13 (Reply 38):
Over the last 3 years, LOT Group, including EuroLOT, has taken delivery of 23 new aircraft:

- 8 new ERJ 175
- 5 new ERJ 195
- 2 new B787
- 8 new Q400
- 2 new B787

and has phased out 8 B737, mainly -500. Therefore a huge fleet expansion since 2009. Still will take delivery of additional 4 new B787, 5 new ERJ 195, 6 new Q400.

I suppose it really was an over expansion, based on the planned contraction.


User currently offlineDLT123 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 10156 times:

I just hope LOT will be able to launch its Dreamliner overseas flights later this month.

Any word on that?


User currently offlineboeing773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 432 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 10137 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 43):
Quoting DLT123 (Reply 16):

Thanks for the those replies, I knew it was ilegal but I was just not sure how that worked out.


I really hope this all works out for LO, it seems like this downsizing and simplifying strategy may work out. But, from the likes of other Eastern Euro counterparts; the odds are not in their favor.



Work Hard, Fly Right.
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2900 posts, RR: 9
Reply 42, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10065 times:
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It would be very sad to see such a vet of the skies disappear. How is CSA doing?

If they were to go under I'd assume UA would jump on opening ORD nonstop to Warsaw.



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlinedcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9425 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 47):
t would be very sad to see such a vet of the skies disappear. How is CSA doing?

If they were to go under I'd assume UA would jump on opening ORD nonstop to Warsaw.

Speaking of which, who does offer non-stops to WAW besides LOT (from the U.S.) and from where? Anyone know?


User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9414 times:

Quoting dcann40 (Reply 48):
Speaking of which, who does offer non-stops to WAW besides LOT (from the U.S.) and from where?

Nobody.

The only non-stops from Poland to North America are on LOT ...

- WAW-ORD
- WAW-JFK
- WAW-YYZ

Last year there was also one time WAW-IAD on US AirForce One

 Smile

[Edited 2013-01-07 16:05:00]

User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8384 posts, RR: 10
Reply 45, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9385 times:

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 15):
I'm confused as to why LOT can not get a bailout from Poland, which is their owners (well the Treasury of Poland)

Since the treasury is their parent company shouldn't they be allowed to inject as much cash as they need? In my mind that's like BA asking IAG for money. Of course IAG is privately held but it is the parent company of BA.

And there lies the biggest disadvantage of being owned by the government. EU law prohibits airlines from taking any government money. IAG is not a government, or a government entity.


User currently offlinedelta777jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1266 posts, RR: 3
Reply 46, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9019 times:

Quoting mloew (Reply 6):

Jep, think that the EMBs go over to euroLOT, which is be 'the other government-regulated airline' the article speaks of. They currently have 13 ATRs and 8 Dash 8s, maybe the remaining ATRs will also go.

You would be surprised to hear that EuroLOT also operate EMB 170 AND including the presidential Embraer aircraft.

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 35):
B788 is not even an option for a specially configured Presidential airplane. It is too expensive, and Polish government does not have a need for such a large dedicated aircraft.

You are right, but their current lease on the EMB 170 leased and operated by EuroLOT is also very very costly.



Fly easyJet
User currently offlinemarcinGDN From Poland, joined Jun 2008, 101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9018 times:

Indeed, K2 leases 2E75 as VIP planes and one to LO.
The governmental deal is very lucrative, thus they burn evern more cash flying their own routes. I am confident that the government could get a far better deal on market conditions.



Terra Incognita
User currently offlineDLT123 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8491 times:

I just looked at Lot's website and you can still buy tickets for the Dreamliner launch flight.

It's $547 in coach (I think) and $4100 in business.

Maybe they'll even have a Dreamliner cake and balloons.


User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 8126 times:

Quoting DLT123 (Reply 53):
I just looked at Lot's website and you can still buy tickets for the Dreamliner launch flight.

It's $547 in coach (I think) and $4100 in business

Looking at WAW-ORD-WAW leaving 1/16 and returning 1/23 one can travel on

- KL/AF/DL/LH/BA for $597-650
or
- LO for $1,042

60-75% is a pretty hefty premium to fly on a 788 (with a chance of a downgauge to 763) ....

[Edited 2013-01-11 06:43:41]

User currently offlineHoya From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 410 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7733 times:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 54):
60-75% is a pretty hefty premium to fly on a 788 (with a chance of a downgauge to 763) ....

How quickly are they getting rid of the 763s? Wouldn't it be more of a chance of cancellation? Though I assume since they have two 787s, one would back-up the other.



Hoya Saxa!!
User currently offlinedcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7701 times:

Quoting Hoya (Reply 55):
How quickly are they getting rid of the 763s? Wouldn't it be more of a chance of cancellation? Though I assume since they have two 787s, one would back-up the other.

I presume for the launch flights, one will back up the other.

Re getting rid fo the 763s, I guess it depends on how quickly they get more 787s.


User currently offlineLO231 From Belgium, joined Sep 2004, 2392 posts, RR: 23
Reply 52, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 7655 times:

Don't fotget the Polish being proud. If necessary, they will collect money in churches to save LO.

Kidding.



Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
User currently offlineFlyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 702 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 7471 times:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 54):
Looking at WAW-ORD-WAW leaving 1/16 and returning 1/23 one can travel on

- KL/AF/DL/LH/BA for $597-650
or
- LO for $1,042

60-75% is a pretty hefty premium to fly on a 788 (with a chance of a downgauge to 763) ....

You are comparing a direct flight with a non-direct option. 400 dollars to avoid AMS, CDG, LHR and be home earlier is not that much. 787 is a nice bonus.  


User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7334 times:

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 58):
400 dollars to avoid AMS, CDG, LHR and be home earlier is not that much. 787 is a nice bonus

I agree, to a business traveler flying to/from WAW it is a small amount to pay for a non-stop, and to an enthusiast, it is a great opportunity to fly on a new plane. However, ...

For a typical WAW-ORD or ORD-WAW passenger it is a LOT of money considering ...
- average income in Poland is $1,200 per month gross
- many passengers on this route are from CIS where income is even less.

For people traveling from ORD to KRK (business center, big Motorola base / a lot of ORD based passengers are from southern Poland), WRO (a big business center), GDA, etc. it is no longer a non-stop, but a choice between connecting in AMS, FRA, MUC and connecting in WAW. Another option would be to fly to WAW, and then drive to Krakow, Wroclaw, Gdansk, etc., but it is a 5 hour drive each way.

The benefit of flying LOT and connecting in WAW is mainly the ability to communicate in Polish with the F/A's. But again, those with limited English would have the low income profile.

Last, but not least, which is very unfortunate, after the initial 'hooray' in November, both LOT (due to overall management issues) and B788 (due to reliability/technical issues) have very bad press in Poland.

Hopefully, a reliable and comfortable TATL B788 service can change these perceptions. In addition returning KRK-ORD-KRK connections in the future could help. However, at least IMHO, at being 60-75% more expensive than competition it becomes handicapped from the start.

[Edited 2013-01-12 02:31:10]

User currently offlineDLT123 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7142 times:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 59):

It all depends on where LOT sees its revenue coming from.

Almost all airlines get the majority of revenue on a flight from business/first and freight.

LOT has a decent sized business class cabin and that should go a long way towards sorely-needed revenue.


User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7116 times:

Quoting DLT123 (Reply 60):
It all depends on where LOT sees its revenue coming from.

Almost all airlines get the majority of revenue on a flight from business/first and freight.

Good point. I agree.

One of the reasons why RZE-JFK-RZE flights were cancelled was the fact that the planes were flying with almost empty J cabin. There is a pretty large Polish community in NYC originating from south east Poland, but not that much business travel for OD passengers.

The 18J plus 21 true Premium Y, with nice IFE and specially trained crew points to the fact that LOT recognizes the true revenue source, and configured its aircraft accordingly. This should give an additional reason to fly LOT for those who are flying beyond WAW and choose between LO and LH, AF, KL, BA - especially other *A airlines (for UA M+).


User currently offlinedcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6841 times:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 61):
The 18J plus 21 true Premium Y, with nice IFE and specially trained crew points to the fact that LOT recognizes the true revenue source, and configured its aircraft accordingly. This should give an additional reason to fly LOT for those who are flying beyond WAW and choose between LO and LH, AF, KL, BA - especially other *A airlines (for UA M+).

Agreed. It looks as if LOT is making an extra effort in this area and indeed should add strength to the argument to fly LOT.


User currently offlineDLT123 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6216 times:

For at least the next short while, LOT's plans to retire the 763s will be put on hold.

Given LOT's precarious situation, however, will the Dreamliner fiasco disproportionately impact them?


User currently offlinenrt1011 From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6112 times:

I am trying to imagine the Management meeting where the 787's were recommended and approved. Did they not know back then that this would not be a good decision for them? I really wonder about the quality of the Management running some of these airlines. Fleet management seems to be a difficult task for most.

User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 60, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5944 times:

Two 737s have already being withdrawn from use in the past three months.

User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2192 posts, RR: 1
Reply 61, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5714 times:

Quoting nrt1011 (Reply 65):
I am trying to imagine the Management meeting where the 787's were recommended and approved. Did they not know back then that this would not be a good decision for them? I really wonder about the quality of the Management running some of these airlines. Fleet management seems to be a difficult task for most.

LOT was a early customer for the 787, ordering it first back in 2005 and about a month before the industrial launch of the original A350. What exactly do you think they should have ordered? The 788 is frankly the perfect size for them, the only major mistake I would suggest they made is the numbered ordered (but of course that was over seven years ago and they had a much larger intercontinental fleet and network). It is easy with hindsight to say the 787 so far has been a disappointment for them, but how were they suppose to know that in 2005? Things certainly wouldn't be better if they had selected the A350. They still wouldn't have new planes and would have been stuck with the A350XWB, which is too big for their needs.


User currently offlinedcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5689 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 68):
LOT was a early customer for the 787, ordering it first back in 2005 and about a month before the industrial launch of the original A350. What exactly do you think they should have ordered? The 788 is frankly the perfect size for them, the only major mistake I would suggest they made is the numbered ordered (but of course that was over seven years ago and they had a much larger intercontinental fleet and network). It is easy with hindsight to say the 787 so far has been a disappointment for them, but how were they suppose to know that in 2005? Things certainly wouldn't be better if they had selected the A350. They still wouldn't have new planes and would have been stuck with the A350XWB, which is too big for their needs.

Good analysis of LOT's situation. It's clear that the airline made the right choice at the time and certainly would have been behind the eightball in terms of new aircraft had it gone for AB.

Hopefully the situation will clear up and the updated 787 will help LOT get back into shape so to speak.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23029 posts, RR: 20
Reply 63, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 5653 times:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 59):
Another option would be to fly to WAW, and then drive to Krakow, Wroclaw, Gdansk, etc., but it is a 5 hour drive each way.

Polish roads are generally awful, but you are overplaying your hand a bit here. All of those drives are doable in 4 hours, and on a good day WAW-KRK is closer to 3. Much of Warsaw-Gdansk is controlled access now; I think the only part that is surface roads is Plonsk to Troun, and that's not a bad corridor for truck traffic.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineordwaw From United States of America, joined May 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 5551 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 70):
Polish roads are generally awful, but you are overplaying your hand a bit here. All of those drives are doable in 4 hours, and on a good day WAW-KRK is closer to 3. Much of Warsaw-Gdansk is controlled access now; I think the only part that is surface roads is Plonsk to Troun, and that's not a bad corridor for truck traffic.

If after getting off at WAW from a TATL flight from ORD, YYZ, or JFK, and given a mid-level rental car, you can manage to get from the Chopin airport to downtown Krakow in close to 3 hours, and Wroclaw or Gdansk in 4 hours, I salute you.


  


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23029 posts, RR: 20
Reply 65, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 5488 times:

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 71):
If after getting off at WAW from a TATL flight from ORD, YYZ, or JFK, and given a mid-level rental car, you can manage to get from the Chopin airport to downtown Krakow in close to 3 hours, and Wroclaw or Gdansk in 4 hours,

I expect that the drive to Gdansk isn't very hard now, though I confess that I haven't lived in Poland since 2006 and there were many fewer controlled access highways then (Krakow-Katowice-Wroclaw was about it).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
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