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A Few Questions About The YS-11  
User currently offlineozark1 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 445 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7680 times:

This airplane interests me because I flew on them as a teenager on PI from GSP to TYS with a stop in AVL.
Why did Piedmont go with this airplane as opposed to the CV-580? Was curious as to how many it seated. I have the book on the history of Piedmont and apparently the air conditioning system did not function well, and they also had to make the seats wider. Did Piedmont regret buying these or were they good performers?
Did Mid-Pacific acquire Piedmont's YS-11 fleet? Did any other U.S. airlines consider buying this plane?
Thanks for any info!

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1053 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7651 times:

Quoting ozark1 (Thread starter):
Why did Piedmont go with this airplane as opposed to the CV-580? Was curious as to how many it seated.

It seated 60 passengers vs the 44 (or so) in the Convair 580. This is one of the main reasons why PI went for it. They had a large presence at Washington National (DCA), which was slot restricted. The extra seats really helped get the passengers on their way, while operating with a constrained number of flights. As far as I know, the YS-11 was well-liked, and it was powered by RR Darts, which were a common turboprop engine (PI had them already - on the FH-228).


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25095 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7616 times:

Quoting ozark1 (Thread starter):
Why did Piedmont go with this airplane as opposed to the CV-580?

They may have wanted a new aircraft and not one that had flown for any number of other airlines for as much as 15 years, considering that the CV-580 conversion program used 340/440 airframes that were all built betwen 1952 and 1958.

And I don't think there were many converted 580s available at the time Piedmont put their YS-11s into service (first one delivered 1967) as if memory correct most 580s were converted by carriers already operating them as 340/440s.


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7575 times:

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 1):
It seated 60 passengers vs the 44 (or so) in the Convair 580.

The CV580 could carry 50 pax.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25095 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7553 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 3):
Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 1):
It seated 60 passengers vs the 44 (or so) in the Convair 580.

The CV580 could carry 50 pax.

52 was a common CV580 configuration.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4923 posts, RR: 43
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7355 times:

Quoting ozark1 (Thread starter):
Did any other U.S. airlines consider buying this plane?

Wikipedia lists a lot of US carriers here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAMC_YS-11

Including some which are a little surprising, like Hawaiian Air and PSA.

I flew on the YS-11 twice, once with Provincetown-Boston Airlines, and once with Transair Canada. My impression is that it felt just like an Avro 748.

In both cases the cabin was configured 2x2 in Economy. I recall reading that a 2x3 version was offered, but I can't imagine that as the cabin would be pretty tight, also, I can not find that reference any more.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7275 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 5):
I flew on the YS-11 twice, once with Provincetown-Boston Airlines, and once with Transair Canada.

Ah right I remember the Transair YS-11. I recall seeing them at YWG as a kid. Which route did you fly it on. Did it ever visit YYZ regularly to your knowledge. A very elusive & occasional visitor to YYZ was the Transair F-28.

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 1):
As far as I know, the YS-11 was well-liked, and it was powered by RR Darts, which were a common turboprop engine

According to aerotransport.org, 25 of the 182 built are still active. Airborne Express operated a sizeable cargo fleet until the late 90's.

Makes you wonder why NAMC did not develop a follow-on airliner. Perhaps bc is was a collaboration effort of sev companies made it a one-off effort. Also I doubt the YS-11 was overly profitable.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4923 posts, RR: 43
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7211 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 6):
Which route did you fly it on. Did it ever visit YYZ regularly to your knowledge.

YYZ-YAM-YQT-YHD-YWG. I had the choice of a non-stop AC L1011, or this flight on a YS-11 ... no prizes for guessing which one I chose. (or 99% of the people on here would choose!)

The flight at the time was daily, and usually an F28 or B737. One day a week it was a YS-11. I am thinking it must have been on a weekend, as I was in school and wouldn't think my parents would let me take a day off school for such an adventure.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7185 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 7):
YYZ-YAM-YQT-YHD-YWG. I had the choice of a non-stop AC L1011, or this flight on a YS-11 ... no prizes for guessing which one I chose. (or 99% of the people on here would choose!)

Good choice! I also remember the L10 skeds to YWG. Your YS-11 flight must have taken most of day to get to YWG. But well worth it.

Looks like most of the remaining YS-11 are with the Japan Air Self Defense Force. A couple in each of Mexico and the Philippines.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25095 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7156 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 5):
n both cases the cabin was configured 2x2 in Economy. I recall reading that a 2x3 version was offered, but I can't imagine that as the cabin would be pretty tight, also, I can not find that reference any more.

Can't see 2-3 on the YS-11. The cabin is about 5 to 6 inches wider than the ATR-42 and F-27 but that's not enough for another seat even if you could steal an inch or so from each of the other seats and the aisle. DC-9 cabin is 17 inches wider.


User currently offlinepenguins From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7145 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 5):
Wikipedia lists a lot of US carriers here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAMC_YS-11

Including some which are a little surprising, like Hawaiian Air and PSA.

PSA used the type for training purposes only. I assume the type was common to the L-188's that PSA did operate on revenue flights.


User currently offlinePI4EVER From United States of America, joined May 2009, 664 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7104 times:
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PI revised the seating on the YS11 from 60 to 58 by installing a forward coat closet. Seats were alleged smaller on Japanese-airline operated YS11's, but seats on the PI aircraft were standard to the current fleet of FH227B's.
The YS11 was chosen as it provided additional capacity over the Martin 404's it replaced, and was able to operate to all the short field airports PI served with the Martin, such as Bluefield and Beckley, WV, Hot Springs, VA, London-Corbin, KY and Rocky Mount, NC. These airports could not accept the FH227B so the YS11 was a major increase in capacity and operational flexibility for PI. Understand that in the mid-60's there were not a lot of new alternate aircraft, prop or pure jet that could operate to such marginal airports, and the YS11 was a perfect fit to PI's operation.
The Convair 580 was a powerful aircraft of comparable size, but could not operate from these airports due to runway requirements, so a new YS11 offered PI additional capacity, short field operation and good operating economics.
The YS11 was powered by Dart turboprops comparable to the FH227B's so a definite maintenance advantage.
Overall, a great airplane for the PI operation, and popular with passengers. Pilots loved the airplane, but F/A's had a mixed bag of opinion because it was an oven in the summer, an icebox in the winter and a "Vomit Comet" in turbulence.
A ride in a YS11 in the winter over and through the Blue Ridge Mountains or the summer thermals of the South beat out any amusement park ride of the day.....
I personally preferred the FH227B.



watch what you want. you may get it.
User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1892 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6923 times:

Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 11):
The Convair 580 was a powerful aircraft of comparable size, but could not operate from these airports due to runway requirements, so a new YS11 offered PI additional capacity, short field operation and good operating economics.

PI4EVER While your response is quite informative, I really do not understand this part of the story. Pound for pound, nothing could out-perform a CV-580 (even with today's standards). What limitations would apply to a CV-580, that would not apply to slower performing YS-11? The empty weight and max t/o weight of both a/c are comparable. Additionally, engine out performance on an Allison 501 powered Convair would be safer, than the less powerful RR Dart engine on the YS-11. Just curious...


User currently offlineflyPBA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6787 times:

Quoting ozark1 (Thread starter):
Did Mid-Pacific acquire Piedmont's YS-11 fleet?

YS-11-200s

N159P
N187P
N219P
N257P
N259P
N269P
N273P
N274P

all went to PBA

N257P, N269P, and N274P later went on to fly for American Eagle (Simmons Airlines) ...


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4262 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6198 times:
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Quoting crownvic (Reply 12):
Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 11):The Convair 580 was a powerful aircraft of comparable size, but could not operate from these airports due to runway requirements, so a new YS11 offered PI additional capacity, short field operation and good operating economics.

PI4EVER While your response is quite informative, I really do not understand this part of the story. Pound for pound, nothing could out-perform a CV-580 (even with today's standards). What limitations would apply to a CV-580, that would not apply to slower performing YS-11? The empty weight and max t/o weight of both a/c are comparable. Additionally, engine out performance on an Allison 501 powered Convair would be safer, than the less powerful RR Dart engine on the YS-11. Just curious...

I've flown on both, also. As I recall, both planes had impressive short-runway performance. For instance, I remember flying out of CRW which in the early 70s used to be like flying off a cliff. I felt perfectly safe on Piedmont's YS-11s.

On the other hand, after Hurricane Agnes' flooding of IPT in 1972, only Altair's Beechcraft 99s were able to take-of from IPT's debris-cluttered property. Allegheny Airline's Convair take-off ability made little difference at that airport.


User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1675 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5883 times:
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Quoting ozark1 (Thread starter):
This airplane interests me because I flew on them as a teenager on PI from GSP to TYS with a stop in AVL.

How long did it take? You could probably drive faster.

The CV580 was an updated version of the CV340-440 with Allison Turboprops. So it was made between 1948-55 most likely. The YS11 was a new plane in the mid 1960s. The YS11 had reliable RR Darts.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 5):
Including some which are a little surprising, like Hawaiian Air and PSA.

Didnt know that. I knew Mid Pacific used them, but not Hawaiian.


User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1053 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5772 times:

Quoting crownvic (Reply 12):
Additionally, engine out performance on an Allison 501 powered Convair would be safer, than the less powerful RR Dart engine on the YS-11. Just curious...

The earlier post regarding the 'Y's field advantage at a few of PI's stations was interesting. Didn't the YS-11 have huge props, relatively speaking? How would this figure into field performance over and above the engine power per se? Or is it already figured in?


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4923 posts, RR: 43
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5660 times:

I see that Transair (Canada) operated the YS-11A in a 46 seat configuration. So it must have been in a "combi" setup, looking at the freight door in the front of the aircraft. Did PI ever carry main deck (combi) freight on their YS-11s?

Also, in an "ad" in a Transair timetable of the early 1970s, they announce the arrival of the new YS-11. Two things strike me in this ad ... they note the short field capability of the aircraft, also that it was equipped with an APU. While the CV580 may well have been short field capable, did it have an APU?



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1675 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5582 times:
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Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 16):
The earlier post regarding the 'Y's field advantage at a few of PI's stations was interesting. Didn't the YS-11 have huge props, relatively speaking? How would this figure into field performance over and above the engine power per se? Or is it already figured in?

Did the YS11 have slats or Kruger flaps?


User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1053 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5498 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 18):
Did the YS11 have slats or Kruger flaps?

I don't think so.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4923 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5498 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 18):
Did the YS11 have slats or Kruger flaps?

It doesn't appear so in any of the pictures online, either in take-off or landing configuration.

The short field performance may have been a result of the greater wing area and lighter weight of the YS-11 over the CV580.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineItalianFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1099 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5427 times:

My one and only time on a PI YS11 was when I was about 6 or 7 y/o and we lived in DC circa 1977. Flew as a UM from DCA to SDF to stay with the grandparents via RIC, TRI and London-Corbin. Vague memory, but I remember the ground stop time was about 10-15 minutes and I think the number 2 kept running for air conditioning (not sure about that). The return trip was a nonstop on a 737.

I snaged a timetable from the bulkhead that is buried in one of my timetable boxes.


User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5029 times:

Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 11):
The Convair 580 was a powerful aircraft of comparable size, but could not operate from these airports due to runway requirements, so a new YS11 offered PI additional capacity, short field operation and good operating economics.
The YS11 was powered by Dart turboprops comparable to the FH227B's so a definite maintenance advantage.

With that kind of performance, I wonder why Frontier, Bonanza, or Allegheny did not take any? The 580 was widely regarded as excellent for mountain flying, including tight places like ASE (Aspen Airways got their from Frontier, Frontier never served ASE).

-Rampart


User currently offlineSDF880 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4787 times:

The YS-11 dart engine had water methanol injection available if needed and this would increase takeoff power quite a bit. I remember the runway data had "wet takeoff" methanol used or "dry takeoff" no water meth used. The water meth if used was armed (3 switches on center console) taking the runway and would be turned off on climb out.

SDF880


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25095 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4188 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 20):
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 18):
Did the YS11 have slats or Kruger flaps?

It doesn't appear so in any of the pictures online, either in take-off or landing configuration.

Do ANY propeller-powered airliners have slats or Kruger flaps? Can't recall any but might be overlooking something.


25 maxpower1954 : The two YS-11s PSA operated from 1974 to 1977 were on a pilot training contract with ANA (one crashed in 1974) and had nothing to do with PSA's airli
26 NDWDCPGUY : The YS-11 had no leading edge devices. It had fowler type trailing edge flaps (just like the Cessna 150) that served it very well. Transair flew two c
27 crownvic : Actually, not only did the Dart have this capability, but many Allison powered CV580's did too. Outside of mountain operations, this feature was rare
28 SDF880 : Not familiar with the 580's other than the basics. I did enjoy a few rides on the 580 and my understanding is the 580 will outperform the YS-11 hands
29 sfjeff : I remember hearing from someone years ago about the inadequate air conditioning on the YS-11. Did the manufacturer or Piedmont ever attempt to improv
30 PI4EVER : I should know better to post a response on A-net without exact and documented historical data and operational statistics. There was no need to mention
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