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Breaking: Japan Airlines Is Smoking Up At BOS  
User currently offlineboeingbus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 66192 times:

Just heard that a jal plane at Logan is smoking up. Perhaps another 787 incident.

Anyone heat anything on this?


Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
260 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineboeingbus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 66473 times:

Yup.

http://m.wcvb.com/news/Heavy-smoke-r...08/18035428/-/hgu08gz/-/index.html



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3382 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 66342 times:

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/01/0...-airlines-flight-at-logan-airport/

Landed in BOS at ~10am


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6038 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 65979 times:

Another 788 issue....this can't be good however one wants to look at it.


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 65695 times:

We'll probably hear soon again how this is electrical arcing and not a real fire. Ok, fair enough. But I for one would like to know more about the electronics incidents, and what might be behind them.

User currently offlineseansasLCY From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2007, 840 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 65704 times:

Picture of the plane at BOS : http://twitpic.com/btav08

User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 65518 times:

Livestream from CBS:
http://www.wfsb.com/category/217730/cbs-news-livestream

And an earlier pic:
http://twitpic.com/btav08


User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 65490 times:

Apparently this happened at the Gate in BOS. It is being reported that there was no crew on board and no passengers either. Makes me wonder if something happened during fueling where the plane was not properly bonded during the process or something.

User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11208 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 65505 times:

"Fire noticed by cleaning crew"

https://twitter.com/PeterWBZ (WBZ is a local television and radio station in Boston)

Looks from the pic that it is in the cargo hold.



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User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 65370 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 3):

It was in the cargo hold so it's a possibility this had nothing to do with the plane itself , lets wait and see.


User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1557 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 65310 times:

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 4):
We'll probably hear soon again how this is electrical arcing and not a real fire. Ok, fair enough. But I for one would like to know more about the electronics incidents, and what might be behind them.

Yup.

Cue esoteric dictionary definitions of a fire.. I guarantee you that this was not repeat not a fire  



BV
User currently onlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 65147 times:

LiIon batteries anyone?


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offline76er From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 509 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 65165 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 9):
It was in the cargo hold so it's a possibility this had nothing to do with the plane itself

Don't know much about the 787, but usually the lower cargo compartments on large jets are right next to the avionics bay(s).

[Edited 2013-01-07 08:28:48]

User currently offlineFDH From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 64620 times:

No change in return flight schedule yet (per JAL and Logan web sites), departure still scheduled for 12:00 PM today.

FDH


User currently offlineBigSaabowski From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 64531 times:

Tail number JA829J; delivered on December 21st, 2012.

User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11208 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 64544 times:

Quoting FDH (Reply 13):

No change in return flight schedule yet (per JAL and Logan web sites), departure still scheduled for 12:00 PM today.

That's 23 minutes from now, as of this post. Unless they've already started boarding it, my guess is that it will be at least delayed.

With that said, the CBS live stream shows a helicopter camera flying away from Logan, so apparently there is nothing more to see. Good news, for sure!



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User currently offlineBigSaabowski From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 64427 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 15):
That's 23 minutes from now, as of this post. Unless they've already started boarding it, my guess is that it will be at least delayed.


With a fire on board an aircraft for any reason, that flight will be canceled. There are too many inspection to be done, even if it was a cargo fire.


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11208 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 64303 times:

Quoting BigSaabowski (Reply 16):
With a fire on board an aircraft for any reason, that flight will be canceled. There are too many inspection to be done, even if it was a cargo fire.

Agreed. Just noting that the JAL and Logan websites cannot possibly be correct that this plane will be departing in now 18 minutes.



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User currently offlineBigSaabowski From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 64142 times:

WCVB-TV, quoting Boston Fire, is reporting that the fire is believed to be electrical.

[Edited 2013-01-07 08:46:34]

User currently offlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 63807 times:

Quoting BigSaabowski (Reply 18):
WCVB-TV, quoting Boston Fire, is reporting that the fire is believed to be electrical.

In fairness, it is hard to know at this time. Need to wait for more information. But if the plane was empty when there was a fire, it might make it a bit less likely for the issue to be with cargo or luggage. They should have been unloaded by that time, and usually get loaded while the passengers are boarding.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12333 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 63481 times:

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 9):
It was in the cargo hold so it's a possibility this had nothing to do with the plane itself , lets wait and see.

Indeed, but if so, a very unfortunate coincidence.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinedumbell2424 From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 914 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 63527 times:
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Here are some tweeple I found with some pics


http://twitter.com/GlobeMoskowitz (long line pic after canceling the flight)

http://twitter.com/bostonfire (quite a few photos)

And according to the Boston Fire twitter: "Fire was in a compartment with batteries and other electrical components."

edit--made links clickable

[Edited 2013-01-07 08:57:58]

User currently offlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 63326 times:

Seattle Times says smoke from cockpit... thought it seems to counter the photos:

http://seattletimes.com/html/nationw...d/2020078313_apusairplanefire.html


User currently offlinedumbell2424 From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 914 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 63142 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 22):
Seattle Times says smoke from cockpit... thought it seems to counter the photos

Not just Seattle Times, whoever publishes AP News Wires.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...E=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT


User currently offlinevegas005 From Switzerland, joined Mar 2005, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 62973 times:

Landed with smoke and flames? Staying off this bird until they fix them ... Issues have been atrocious so far.

25 F9animal : Nothing here guys. This is totally normal. Probably just an arch.... Or just a spark. Doubtful it was a fire. Boeing will downplay this like usual.
26 Cubsrule : Certainly not a nothing, but is it somehow "worse" than all of the cracking in the 388? Stuff happens with new airplanes. Given the news cycle, we he
27 max550 : No, it never would have gone to the gate if it landed with smoke and flames. From everything I've read so far smoke was noticed after it was parked a
28 BlueSky1976 : Now the key question is... was the compartment part of the aircraft equipment or do they refer to the cargo?
29 vegas005 : Twitter response clearly disagrees with your statement.
30 FDH : If halon and water was indeed used to stop the fire, it might take a little while for this plane to return to service (depending on the amount of wate
31 71Zulu : Mass Fire Chief said battery compartment.
32 Post contains links max550 : According to this reporter in BOS the component was a battery used to power the APU. The component on fire was a battery used to power an auxiliary p
33 Post contains links FDH : Flight cancellation notice from JAL. No new information but they do apologize. http://www.ar.jal.com/arl/cms/contents/en/special_news_003116.html FDH
34 Revelation : No, where did you come up with that? Please read the thread: And indeed they probably noticed smoke, as opposed to "a fire". Interesting. What causes
35 wingnutmn : If Halon and water were used, New batteries are required and all electrical connectors and lines need to be inspected. This just went from bad to wors
36 Revelation : Wonder if they pulled a well known a.net member out of class to go have a look? We now read from bostonfire on twitter: So this says it was a mechani
37 Post contains images Deltal1011man : Yep. No other airplane has ever had smoke before. 1st time. Took the fire dept. a while to figure out how to deal with it. Yeah I mean, like the down
38 Post contains links joepatroniyx : If you go to www.bostonherald.com there are a couple of pictures that clearly show smoke from the rear cargo compartment , Not a good day for the 787
39 F9animal : It was likely an arch. No fire. Fire department is probably wrong. Those guys don't know what a fire is. Again, this is totally normal. Does anyone kn
40 AirlineCritic : Interesting. From the Boston Herald article:
41 jreuschl : Does it seem these electrical incidents are coming on the later-delivery 787s? You had the United one, and this one apparently was delivered Dec 20.
42 Post contains links mbmbos : This was just posted on Boston.com: http://www.boston.com/metrodesk/2013.../1HCFhQuwAn8ELwuDg5oDgI/story.html
43 Norcal773 : Well-said although Boeing could do without these 'Electrical incidents' they keep having on the 787. Obviously, this will be over-blown especially he
44 alphaomega : Smoke in the cockpit reported after everyone de-planed. Batteries melted and caught fire, and the avionics compartment is apparently a mess - a/c will
45 Post contains links Roseflyer : Smoke, fire, burning, etc is never a good thing. This event is going to get a lot of press coverage because it is a 787. No one seems to put it in con
46 Post contains links jreuschl : Yes, but there are not that many 787s in service. A number of them have had electrical issues. Electrical is different on this plane than others. htt
47 DocLightning : Which is precisely why it is a very big deal. When a fire develops halfway between HNL and SYD, it is a very big deal. There are not many frames in s
48 Post contains links Viscount724 : How can you guarantee that when you're 10,000 miles away? Recent news items say there WAS a fire. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...g-787-boston
49 sonomaflyer : We will need to wait for the quick sketch from the NTSB with the description of the event. The fact Halatron was used is a significant issue if for no
50 Post contains links and images ADent : This is an embed of the earlier link. Quite a bit of smoke there.
51 Post contains images United727 : AGREED Enter TDSCanuck...Until I hear it from him (his take on the issue), I'm really not concerned. Tom, your thoughts?? --------------------------
52 sonomaflyer : We will need to wait for the quick sketch from the NTSB with the description of the event. The fact Halatron was used is a significant issue if for no
53 Post contains links sonomaflyer : From http://www.boston.com/metrodesk/2013.../1HCFhQuwAn8ELwuDg5oDgI/story.html "Massport Fire Rescue Chief Robert J. Donahue said firefighters encount
54 Roseflyer : I have trust and confidence on the safety program that the FAA, EASA and other regulators force the airlines and manufacturers to follow. Every signi
55 Post contains links sonomaflyer : From http://www.boston.com/metrodesk/2013.../1HCFhQuwAn8ELwuDg5oDgI/story.html "Massport Fire Rescue Chief Robert J. Donahue said firefighters encount
56 GEG2RAP : ok, the news media is quick to jump to conclusions. How many times have you seen the first new report of a Skywest Boeing 747 being involved in an in
57 Revelation : No doubt. The boston.com article above lists four well-known electrical incidents with post-EIS 787s. The ap.com article above quotes the Massport FD
58 crAAzy : I'm a big Boeing fan but I would definitely consider an electrical problem that results in heavy smoke throughout the entire cabin something that is
59 Post contains links jreuschl : http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...ire-while-on-ground-in-boston.html Bloomburg: "Flames about two feet (0.6 meter) high shot out of an avionics c
60 AR385 : Won´t the above have an impact on ETOPS?
61 suseJ772 : I am assuming one is AF 447, but now you got me curious as to what the other one was. Your point is great one btw.
62 DocLightning : I expect a fire chief to know "fire" from "not fire" better than just about anyone else in the world. When he is quoted directly from multiple source
63 flyabr : I'm sorry folks, but this SCARES THE HELL OUT OF ME!!! What if that plane had been over the pacific when this occurred??? After years of delays on the
64 commavia : As to the discussion of when this happened ... I was actually on this flight, and I can confirm definitively that if there was a fire or smoke already
65 BoeingVista : Ethiopian 737 went into the Mediterranean on take off from Lebanon?
66 N14AZ : No, I don't think so - AF447 was in 2009.
67 ukoverlander : Aren't we talking about the 787? What has this got to do with the A380?
68 Roseflyer : My mistake. The accidents were 6 months apart. The first was AF447. Yes. Ethiopian 409 in January 2010. Sorry to go off topic, but media bias can rea
69 Post contains links BoeingVista : http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...ire-while-on-ground-in-boston.html You are not successfully fighting this in the the air. Maybe people will now
70 EPA001 : I guess you are right here. Well, then it could have been much worse. Luckily it was not the case. Now it is up to the investigators to determine the
71 ChrisNH : Media people in Boston were hyperventilating over this, with some excitedly calling it a 'jumbo jet.' I wonder whether JAL 8 tomorrow will be a 773 to
72 Roseflyer : On board fires are a big problem. Swissair 111 taught us all about the risks of uncontained fire on board. You can rest assured that Boeing, FAA, and
73 SKGSJULAX : Well, this was clearly a lucky day for you and your fellow passengers. Glad that nobody was hurt...
74 Cubsrule : I'd suggest that you have the distinction wrong. The issue isn't "people" discounting concerns about electrical heat/arcing/fire. The issue is that s
75 Post contains links bthebest : http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...787-fire-at-boston-airport-380751/ Flightglobal quotes Massport as saying that a battery in the aft electrical
76 KarelXWB : Even if there was no real fire, the smoke itself can be even worse. If this happens in flight it will be very hard to extinguish the smoke and people
77 traindoc : I was planning to take the 787 from LAX-NRT next month. I think I will wait a while. I am not afraid of flying, but I am afraid of crashing. Clearly t
78 Post contains links KarelXWB : More news is coming in: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...ire-while-on-ground-in-boston.html
79 SKGSJULAX : This a very benevolent comparison. Structural deficiencies take a long time to develop and can, in most cases, be detected as they develop; on the ot
80 Revelation : I certainly agree, and one thing to keep in mind is we do not yet know if this "heavy smoke incident" would have occurred in the air or not so we don
81 packsonflight : I wonder if Boston fire dept signed the none disclosure agreement with Boeing before they climbed on board with the hose!
82 apodino : I hate to play this card..but was this a Washington built model or a South Carolina built model? The reason I mention this is because this could provi
83 Post contains images AirlineCritic : Rely on the a.netters to be on the spot when something happens. Thanks for the report! From the boston.com article: Is it common to have batteries fo
84 mcdu : Two weeks ago I was shouted down on the 787 thread as being an alarmist. This airplane has serious issues and I am afraid it is going to result in a h
85 KC135TopBoom : All JL B-787s delivered to date were Washington built airplanes.
86 mcdu : Please delete. Duplicate posting[Edited 2013-01-07 13:45:23]
87 Post contains links jreuschl : http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JAL65 I guess JAL doesn't think it warrants grounding their other 787s. That one left after the incident in BOS.
88 Norcal773 : Reports say that fire was from the battery that powers the APU while airplane is on the ground thus this could only happen when plane is on the groun
89 jfk777 : Hope the plane is not damaged beyond repair.
90 sonomaflyer : I doubt the a/c is damaged beyond repair but as was pointed out above, this type of "fire event" cannot be fought in the air unless the area in questi
91 twincommander : apparently no one here has heard of thermal runaway. search thermal runaway on google. if this was indeed the case, the aircraft isnt at fault here. s
92 SKGSJULAX : Wow! I guess you didn't know people on SR111 like some of us did. Thermal runaway in batteries is usually the result of improper handling or manufact
93 Roseflyer : Based on what metrics did you determine that the 787 is an inferior plane? Is it based on 3-4 events that you have read in the news? Like I said earl
94 Post contains images MountainFlyer : No offense, but you sound like you should be writing for the media, whose job it is to purposely scare the living daylights out of the public with ba
95 twincommander : nope. i didnt know anyone on SR111. not gonna lie. i do, however, maintain batteries. again, how is this the aircrafts fault? thermal runaway can hap
96 SKGSJULAX : Good! We are in violent agreement then.
97 Revelation : Glad you have the question mark there, because we are being told that up to this point it has been similar or better to the preceding new airplane in
98 SOBHI51 : I see nobody stopping that action. This is a forum, people can give there opinions freely, some might be wrong, but still it's great for a discussion
99 IADCA : Yeah, and that plane diverted, landed safely, and taxiied to the gate. No fire department, no two-foot-high flames (which would have left some signif
100 RussianJet : Wow. A bit of an overraction, to say the least. The fact is that it's a new type and is bound to be subject to increased attention with issues like t
101 Post contains images flyabr : No offense taken! Despite your best efforts, nothing in your reply makes me less concerned about what just happened on that 787. I'd read about all t
102 7BOEING7 : To a some extent it is.
103 Post contains links Roseflyer : Actually the electrical system on the 787 has changed more and pushed technology further than any airplane since the 707. It does not have a pneumati
104 IADCA : Thanks, guys. Always happy to learn something new. I can now see why so much more juice is required (although I suppose we're seeing the downside of
105 Post contains images Norcal773 : Here we go again... I find your bashing of the 787 no surprise really. I agree, Reason I said 'Reports say'
106 RickNRoll : Don't you need an assurance that the APU will function correctly for ETOPS?
107 sonomaflyer : Lest this devolve into a finger pointing flame fest resulting in a thread lock, it would be more productive to understand what this is and is not in t
108 Stitch : If this system is only engaged when on the ground, then it is not relevant to ETOPS.[Edited 2013-01-07 15:40:16]
109 RickNRoll : Different issue of different symptom? All cases could be due to inadequate management of the power supply system. Besides thermal runaway, the batter
110 AR385 : I thought that if you loose an engine on ETOPS you need to have the APU on at all times?
111 Post contains images sonomaflyer : Both the UA divert and the ZA002 incident were focused on the electrical panel and assorted subsystems. To my knowledge, they did not involve issues w
112 BoeingGuy : They were probably only referring to normal operation, not non-normal or MMEL operations.
113 Revelation : To be clear, the battery is there to start the APU, not to run it. Once the APU starts, its two generators go on-line and provide enough power to sta
114 D L X : If this system is only engaged while on the ground... why does it have to be on the plane at all? Why not a box at the airport that plugs into the pl
115 RickNRoll : It's not, but it's required for ETOPS if an engine fails.
116 ikramerica : It's funny, my first thought was a battery in luggage/cargo caught fire, but I wasn't really far off. Any time an aircraft spontaneously catches fire
117 sonomaflyer : The power requirements of this a/c are higher than any other passenger jet IIRC. Also, there are times when ground power may not be available at all
118 Post contains links flood : I'd venture to guess most on here have. The FAA certainly has, and they highlighted their concerns and proposed conditions on the use of Lithium batt
119 Post contains images s5daw : I don't know what kind of batteries are used in 787, but at least consumer grade LiXX batteries are quite a hazard. They store a substantial amount of
120 s5daw : "Not needed" is not the same as "not connected to the airplane electric circuit in some way". They need to be charged.
121 AR385 : Infrastructure. Some airports don´t have/can´t afford that equipment.
122 Roseflyer : The 787 can be dispatched on ETOPS flight with an inoperative APU. Usually the APU is not required to be operative. The 737NG is a special case becau
123 sonomaflyer : That is a fair point. For the sake of the airlines and passengers alike, I'd much prefer an isolated mfr defect in the battery itself rather than a c
124 MountainFlyer : Fair enough. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. My point was not so much to change your opinion; more so to point out the irrationality of me
125 KC135Hydraulics : Seems to me like a case is being made that "all electrical" isn't the way forward. Let's get some bleed air ducts back in here, let's re-install some
126 Revelation : Yes, I'm sure ETOPS regulations make all of this an interesting exercise. It's clear the two gens on the non-failed engine could start the APU, but I
127 Skydrol : Since when can Li-Ion batteries not experience thermal runaway at any time or altitude from internal shorts or manufacturing defects? "Reports" are s
128 N766UA : I definitely thought this thread was either about JAL doing REALLY well in Boston or them allowing smoking on their jets. Might wanna change the title
129 Aesma : Aren't all APUs started with a battery ?
130 Skydrol : ... or a photo of one of their planes with a super-sized blunt hanging out of the nose wheel bay. ✈ LD4 ✈
131 BMI727 : Well, unless the cargo manifest included Snoop Dogg, I feel pretty safe saying that something went wrong there.
132 Revelation : Thanks for the clarification.
133 okie : Thank you Rick. You quite well point out the major issues that I have seen with Ion battery fires. A Short. While we have no other information, what
134 s5daw : It seems that with a system as complex as jetliner, there simply can be no disruption or revolution, just slow, careful evolution. A simple design ch
135 PITingres : I see no basis for that conclusion. I see a case being made that "all electrical" is hard, perhaps harder than expected. I certainly see no reason to
136 TheSultanOfWing : Surely there's no need for name calling by anyone. If you feel unsafe, by all means don't book / board. Your prerogative! I guess I'd approach it a b
137 FI642 : Okay, let's keep this in prospective. This was a completely different incident. No commercial aircraft has been without issue when introduced. No one
138 PlanesNTrains : Well, it would certainly be "good news" if it was a defective battery versus an airframe issue, but there is no denying that perception is going to ta
139 Post contains images N766UA : I definitely thought about MSPainting that…
140 Post contains images flood : On the other hand, the airframe is supposed to prevent any such issues - particularly considering the increased risks of using lithium ion batteries.
141 Aesma : I seem to remember a teething issue of the A380 caused an electric fire. Nobody answered me about starting APUs with batteries.
142 s5daw : Well, that certainly is one way to look at it. On the other hand, rather than repeating the "no aircraft has been without issues" it would be interes
143 MountainFlyer : It is highly likely that even if they are aware of the specific details at this point they are forbidden from publicly discussing it until an investi
144 PC12Fan : I've said this before, but I'll say it again. I've always been a Boeing fan through and through, but there is something about the 787 I just don't tru
145 okie : I would think so but we do not know the architecture of the 87 if it will start off the main buss and/or the battery. If the APU can be started off t
146 TheSultanOfWing : That makes a lot of sense......shame, but it does! Bummer! I guess we'll have to wait and see till the facts come out. FH
147 pliersinsight : Perhaps if the incident location was KDEN such conclusions wouldn't be so...half baked.
148 aviateur : If you're a New Englander, you can watch me on WBZ-TV news being interviewed about this incident. Who knows how they'll edit the footage, but what I s
149 BMI727 : Fisker is the one with burning cars, although plenty of gasoline cars ignite themselves as well, particularly Italian ones. Tesla is the one that had
150 ChrisNH : In about 90 minutes we'll know what JAL is sending to Boston for tomorrow's arrival. WHDH Boston is saying JAL is 'grounding' the 787, but they also h
151 Post contains images YVRLTN : Hopefully this could therefore not happen when in flight, unless there is a mass issue with the batteries themselves which lead them to combust wheth
152 Post contains images CM : Both equipment bays are vented to an outflow valve. If there is smoke in an equipment bay when the airplane is pressurized, no smoke will enter the c
153 mandala499 : Or... it could be as simple as more than 2 consecutive APU starts in less than 5 mins... (stated as a limitation for the 787). Eventually... Unfortun
154 AR385 : I believe the RAT only deploys when both engines are gone.
155 okie : Thanks mandala, So there is a possibility of a power panel/contactor/software issue it would seem. Okie
156 spacecadet : Well they're certainly grounding this 787, which could be what they're actually reporting without even knowing it. ("The" 787 could refer to this par
157 CM : The RAT deploys based on electrical power source availability. Losing both engines is probably the most dramatic way to achieve RAT deployment, but i
158 Flighty : How can electrical safety measures function when the wires are burning? Apologies to Midnight Oil.
159 7BOEING7 : JAL 008 is airborne and on its way to BOS--listed as a 788
160 Post contains images okie : JAL may be singing The time has come A fact is a fact It belongs to them Let's give it back. The concept is to provide a fail-safe design before igni
161 7BOEING7 : Nobody appears to be grounding anything yet--ANA, JAL and UAL all have airplanes airborne as we speak.
162 Aesma : Thanks for the answers. Another possibility would be to use Lithium Iron batteries, I read they're safer than common Lithium Ion ones. Right, I tend t
163 Post contains links Humanitarian : Interesting comment in the WSJ. Partial excerpt:
164 JAAlbert : If it was the lithium ion battery that caused the fire, it seems to me that is significant. These batteries have caused a number of fires in aircraft
165 CM : The 787 APU battery is housed in a very robust steel case. The case is vented, but it is a very secure enclosure. It is also in a very small/confined
166 Norcal773 : Better question is, why do the manufacturers keep using them especially if there's an alternative.
167 CM : For the same reason Li-Ion batteries are used in your phone, iPad and laptop computer: Li-Ion batteries are smaller, lighter, and have a more stable
168 PHX787 : I haven't had the capabilities to check and see if there was damage reported, was there any? Anyone else know why AVHerald is slower than usual report
169 jreuschl : Is AVherald going to report this at all, considering it was a ground incident?
170 PHX787 : Looks like Uniteds 787 at LAX, going to MET, is grounded and cancelled due to engine trouble according to a contact on that flight. She was rebooked t
171 7BOEING7 : Because??????
172 PHX787 : Well my friend mentioned that because of the Boston incident they were delayed for inspections. After the inspection they found something wrong with
173 Post contains links spacecadet : What makes you think they only report air incidents? http://www.avherald.com/h?article=450fb85b&opt=0
174 tdscanuck : I doubt it...all sources so far seem to be pointing at a battery fire. Li-Ion battery fires are pretty well etablished, and 28VDC isn't going to get
175 BestWestern : Guys, we all need to take a chill pill, and go relax for 12 hours, until the real information surfaces. The 787 is a safe aircraft. Boeing or the CAA
176 jreuschl : On avherald.com: "B788 in Boston on Jan 7th 2013, ground incident outside our coverage"
177 tdscanuck : If that were the case, the aircraft would never have been certified. That's too obvious an example of a single point failure leading to a catastrophi
178 Post contains images Deltal1011man : Then I wouldn't fly ever again. NiCad can have Thermal run off and thus start a fire. Guess you are better off swimming. So....You know your pretty m
179 AeroWesty : Thanks for your GREAT posts. I've got a simple question about this. What's the average elapsed time between when the APU or ship's batteries would la
180 Post contains images flyabr : I do like swimming, but that is probably not an option if i wanna go to say Ireland! lol! For the time being I've got plenty of other aircraft option
181 Post contains images FlyingAY : Well, it remains to be seen if there is an issue with the design. I mean, even if the battery had a manufacturing issue that caused it to explode, th
182 Post contains links BMI727 : The Roadster is actually the most underperforming model from either company, but that's another thread. Anyway, I think there are enough fires that w
183 Post contains images AirlineCritic : I'd downplay the issue of who was at fault here. Obviously the system, including all of its components, needs to work correctly, or at least fail saf
184 CM : Mistakes are made in all these areas. A search of ADs for any type which has flown for a few years will reveal problems in all three areas for any ai
185 AirlineCritic : Thanks for these posts, Tom. A lot of very useful and accurate information, as always. This is exactly why I like a.net.
186 KC135Hydraulics : On the KC-135 the main batt and APU batt are on the floor next to the toilet and urinal can completely unprotected. If you miss you can easily splash
187 wjcandee : The photos that purport to show smoke simply may be showing the application of Halatron.
188 ferpe : I think the posts from CM and Tom (which both now this frame like no others) shows that good and factual information is the only way to get ones natur
189 wjcandee : Aviateur is usually pretty insightful in these circumstances but it sounds like his info was faulty (location of batteries and system design) and thus
190 SCL767 : Indeed, today LAN will deploy CC-BBB on LA455 SCL-EZE and LA456 EZE-SCL. LAN's 787 schedule for this month will continue to operate normally.
191 CM : When plugged into ground power (115v 400hz), the P100/200 panels (235v varaible freq) can be energized, but not in the circuit which would be powerin
192 Unflug : If a thermal runaway is to be expected, the aircraft should be able to handle it without filling the cabin with smoke, even when on the ground. I'm n
193 justloveplanes : Doing some armchair engineering here based on below facts.... I would suggest a sealed LiIon Compartment with redundant pressure relief valves that ve
194 FlyDeltaJets : The RAT can be deployed from a switch in the flight deck.
195 CM : True, although for any condition which requires the RAT, the airplane will put it down long before the crew pulls up the checklist.
196 Post contains links Aviaponcho : Hello everybody Some questions : - Aren't batteries monitored and charged during the flight, in order to maintain their specific normal or emergency f
197 CM : Lithium-ion is being used here in a generic sense. The 787 batteries use a Lithium-polymer/cobalt chemistry.
198 wjcandee : Right. To speak of a "lithium-ion" battery is to speak of a manner of operation of the battery (i.e. lithium ions migrate from one electrode to the o
199 tdscanuck : An independent dual engine failure has never occurred on a modern airliner (possibly ever, we debate that from time to time in the ETOPS threads). Co
200 faro : When a battery starts conducting electricity, an electric field is generated. Could it be that -depending on the geometry of the immediate surroundin
201 ltbewr : I wonder, was the a/c at the time hooked up to ground or an external power supplies and if that could have contributed to this incident. When you thin
202 BoeingVista : I honestly dont remember an A380 electrical fire so post details if you have them if not maybe don't throw shade on another aircraft? If so this nega
203 Post contains links and images SQ452 : http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/01/0...-airlines-flight-at-logan-airport/ Watch the above video on this report. The reporting is so horribly funny. "h
204 Aviaponcho : Thank Tom you, so it's a matter of 30-40 kg a most Thank you CM, so it's more or less the same as the Batscap batteries
205 Post contains images Revelation : Man do those guys love to swing their fire ax! Thanks for the important clarification. As do we all! That was my thought too. I imagine the thermal r
206 Post contains images EPA001 : You are totally correct imho. So also I would like to say a big thank you to especially CM and Tom for the extensive reporting on this incident. It g
207 faro : That's what I meant when I mentioned "starts conducting electricity"; you are going from nil current to x amperes in a small interval of time, hence
208 babybus : This was the 2nd most viewed topic on BBC until they buried the story for some reason. Would it not be a good idea to keep those planes on the ground
209 upperdeck : It's still there, now at number 8 in the charts! Would I still fly on this plane? Yes - but I'll admit to feeling more apprehensive than usual. The m
210 CM : When the airplane is on ground power, the battery charger is not on a circuit which involves the P100/200 panels in any way - they are elecrically is
211 Stitch : It seems to me that people assume all inflight fires will become the conflagration that was Swissair 111. These issues did not appear to have cropped
212 UALWN : But aren't we all here in that category? Do we know for sure what is going on? Having said this, I'd board a 787 tomorrow without hesitation. Quite t
213 SKGSJULAX : And you have no facts to call my comment stupid. Please maintain proper decorum and language. "Should" is proper grammar for expressing one's opinion
214 packsonflight : No. If those batteries are prone to explode why should than only happen on the ground? Mind you that the battery and the hot battery bus is powered a
215 Post contains images ferpe : Before the posts by CM and Tom I felt the same, not in the least as I have worked in the computer industry for 10 years and were shipping in 10 of th
216 Cubsrule : What you have not done is explained how that action is appropriate in the context of other aircraft EIS "teething problems." As it stands now, your p
217 max550 : Perhaps, but you're bound to have a lot more electrical problems on an aircraft that uses many more electrical systems than any aircraft before it. I
218 Post contains images KELPkid : By proving that no one is going to leave one lying around with major vehicle damage and the (traction) battery connected for three weeks (except poss
219 Post contains links aerobalance : Boeing stock downgraded by analyst. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/boe...to-hold-from-buy-at-bbt-2013-01-08 Main issue: "The most critical aspect of
220 Flighty : The most explosive thing on a Toyota Prius is the gas tank!
221 moo : Question related to the APU talk - from when I was following the 787s development in 2005, 2006 and 2007, I distinctly remember that the APU was suppo
222 faro : Perhaps someone at B can tell them that the APU batteries in question are only used on the ground. Analysts can be ignorant too, not just reporters.
223 Post contains images Stitch : Considering financial analysts don't know finances, I wonder how knowledgeable of the aerospace industry and it's product design they are.
224 jollo : Correct me if I'm wrong, but batteries are kept topped up during flight also. So: - the APU battery is "used" (power drain) only when starting the AP
225 Cubsrule : If the RAT provides power in an engine out scenario, why does it have ETOPS relevance?
226 CM : I'm not taking issue with your point, but your example is factually incorrect... There was never a "total power failure"; at no point were all 4 main
227 Unflug : It seems these APU batteries were not in use when the incident happened. So even if they are only used on the ground, the same thing could possibly h
228 moo : Thanks for the answer, but I wasn't talking about just for ETOPS purposes - the talk I distinctly remember was that Boeing was using the APU as an el
229 PHX787 : Update- UA 787 grounded at LAX.
230 ChrisNH : I'll bet today's Alaska Air nonstop from Seattle to Boston is half-full of Boeing people...those not high enough on the totem pole to warrant a BBJ ri
231 Post contains images CM : You are correct. The APU is not needed for any normal flight condition. If this is what was said, it was in error... even in 2006/2007. The problem i
232 moo : Thanks. Very odd, very very odd. I remember indepth discussions about it, and the pro's and con's of the approach etc.
233 apodino : Lovely...now the flight today is returning to the gate for a fuel leak. This is not a good week for JAL in BOS.
234 hnl2bos : I was just saying in the other thread I hope the electrical isnt anything major, and I hope today is just some ground crew error. I'm flying this fli
235 BoeingVista : And in this scenario would the APU be stared by the single working generator or the APU battery?[Edited 2013-01-08 10:30:07]
236 CM : APU battery.
237 7BOEING7 : Facts and data!!!
238 BoeingVista : Thanks for the reply. Ok so there are scenarios where the APU battery would be used in flight. Follow up You say that 787's can be dispatched on ETOP
239 Revelation : Which means it's a good time to buy. 777 and 737 at record production levels and order books filled up for MAX trumps the panic selling after these i
240 Post contains links sankaps : Now a fuel leak on another JAL 787 in BOS forces a return to the gate... not a good two days for JAL, for BOS, and for the 787 (and for the pax involv
241 Post contains links Revelation : This thread is long enough... Japan Airlines Fuel Leak Boston (by dwcontroller Jan 8 2013 in Civil Aviation)
242 Post contains links KarelXWB : Update: http://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/288717335613800449 http://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/288717418895904770[Edited 2013-01-08 10:57:33]
243 KC135Hydraulics : Man... they need to stop hiring 18 year old mechanics over there in Washington!
244 CM : Tom said it, but yes; the 787 may dispatch with the APU inop, provided it remains within 180 minutes of a suitable airport (ETOPS 180). The MEL is en
245 KarelXWB : To show how complex the 787 is: - Carter Leake
246 Post contains links stlgph : Initial investigative findings: http://www.ntsb.gov/news/2013/130108b.html • The NTSB investigator on scene found that the auxiliary power unit batt
247 Kaiarahi : Is it just me, or is this unclear?
248 Aither : Maybe now we will, depending of the cause, see the true cost of outsourcing key aircraft designs. Fact is you can't test everything in modern aircraft
249 CM : Could Mr Leake have possibly brought up any more items which (so far as we know) have nothing to do with this issue? I guess when you fire your shotgu
250 Stitch : First, neither Airbus nor Boeing make APUs nor do they make APU batteries. So every APU and APU battery is "outsourced design" by the supplier. Secon
251 faro : I believe the info so is simply improper connexions on a battery in one of their 787's; is there a precise reference to the APU battery somewhere? Fa
252 Post contains links Stitch : United examined electrical components associated with the auxiliary power system, or APU, inside a small compartment underneath the cabin of the Dream
253 faro : Ok thanx Stitch. Faro
254 SKGSJULAX : This is an interesting supply chain choice. Why wouldn't Boeing go directly to Yuasa (arguably THE top battery manufacturer in the world) to buy the
255 Post contains images CM : It is pretty common in this business to create system packages which are sent out for proposal from multiple suppliers. Thales happened to win a chun
256 Aesma : I'm not sure what you mean, it accelerates faster, drives faster, turns faster... The sedans weigh far too much to be any good as sports cars. What I
257 Post contains links Aesma : I was the one mentioning it and I'm more a fan of the A380 than of the 787. The incident happened two years ago : http://avherald.com/h?article=4372b
258 BoeingGuy : Not even close. The 787 is a significant step beyond the 777 in this regard. I'll keep my editorial comments to myself (and keep my job).
259 RickNRoll : It is, but there are other causes that can't be written off. Environment. Overcharging. Overloading. Short circuit. I have read that the other 787 th
260 Post contains links jetblueguy22 : Due to the large amount of posts in this thread Part 2 has been created. Please continue the discussion there Japan Airlines Is Smoking Up At BOS Part
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